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On September 05 2022 23:27 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2022 23:11 TossHeroes wrote:On September 05 2022 20:33 tigera6 wrote:On September 05 2022 18:44 sirokop wrote:
Serral consistency in defending harass with minimal damage and adapting to what his opponent is doing is unique among top Zergs.
Other top Zergs do it all, but not with such a flawless and almost robotic consistency.
His consistency highlights that with no significant mistake, Zerg pulls ahead in the midgame and beats Terran, at least on the vast majority of maps.
There's so much to say about Zerg strengths (creep, queens, banelings, cost-efficient spell-casters with superior economy), but that's another debate.
I'm convinced that if the SC2 player pool was bigger, we would have 1-2 additional Serral-like Zerg player, and the game would be patched. Yet Serral is not the only Zerg that win tournaments. There are Dark-Rogue-Reynor that share multiple premiere tournament wins as well as World Champion. Other Zerg might not be as efficient as Serral, but that doesnt stop them from winning all these years. And Maru isn’t the only Terran winning tournaments either Let’s take a look at the previous GSL winners the past 2-4 years Terran: Maru, Ty, cure Zerg: rogue and Dark Toss: herO Fact: there are more terran players winning GSL than the other races Zergs have been winning the last couple world championship simply because they are the better players And not sure why it’s always the terran fans that always complain about balance. If anything it should be the toss fan base that has the right to complain since we been getting the shit end of the stick in every single patch for the past 4 years Oh, Toss players complain just as much... But this tournament their best player lost in PvT which nobody believes to be imbalanced so they had no reason to complain this time
Tbf PvZ the recent years wars soul drainingly bad, going from 2019 death of the mu to 2020 and 2021 stargate fiestas etc. Every loss felt worse and worse :D
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On September 05 2022 23:27 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2022 23:11 TossHeroes wrote:On September 05 2022 20:33 tigera6 wrote:On September 05 2022 18:44 sirokop wrote:
Serral consistency in defending harass with minimal damage and adapting to what his opponent is doing is unique among top Zergs.
Other top Zergs do it all, but not with such a flawless and almost robotic consistency.
His consistency highlights that with no significant mistake, Zerg pulls ahead in the midgame and beats Terran, at least on the vast majority of maps.
There's so much to say about Zerg strengths (creep, queens, banelings, cost-efficient spell-casters with superior economy), but that's another debate.
I'm convinced that if the SC2 player pool was bigger, we would have 1-2 additional Serral-like Zerg player, and the game would be patched. Yet Serral is not the only Zerg that win tournaments. There are Dark-Rogue-Reynor that share multiple premiere tournament wins as well as World Champion. Other Zerg might not be as efficient as Serral, but that doesnt stop them from winning all these years. And Maru isn’t the only Terran winning tournaments either Let’s take a look at the previous GSL winners the past 2-4 years Terran: Maru, Ty, cure Zerg: rogue and Dark Toss: herO Fact: there are more terran players winning GSL than the other races Zergs have been winning the last couple world championship simply because they are the better players And not sure why it’s always the terran fans that always complain about balance. If anything it should be the toss fan base that has the right to complain since we been getting the shit end of the stick in every single patch for the past 4 years Oh, Toss players complain just as much...
lol, no. Nobody complains as much as Terrans. It's part of their race identity.
Granted, Artosis carries a significant part of that workload by himself.
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On September 05 2022 23:27 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2022 23:11 TossHeroes wrote:On September 05 2022 20:33 tigera6 wrote:On September 05 2022 18:44 sirokop wrote:
Serral consistency in defending harass with minimal damage and adapting to what his opponent is doing is unique among top Zergs.
Other top Zergs do it all, but not with such a flawless and almost robotic consistency.
His consistency highlights that with no significant mistake, Zerg pulls ahead in the midgame and beats Terran, at least on the vast majority of maps.
There's so much to say about Zerg strengths (creep, queens, banelings, cost-efficient spell-casters with superior economy), but that's another debate.
I'm convinced that if the SC2 player pool was bigger, we would have 1-2 additional Serral-like Zerg player, and the game would be patched. Yet Serral is not the only Zerg that win tournaments. There are Dark-Rogue-Reynor that share multiple premiere tournament wins as well as World Champion. Other Zerg might not be as efficient as Serral, but that doesnt stop them from winning all these years. And Maru isn’t the only Terran winning tournaments either Let’s take a look at the previous GSL winners the past 2-4 years Terran: Maru, Ty, cure Zerg: rogue and Dark Toss: herO Fact: there are more terran players winning GSL than the other races Zergs have been winning the last couple world championship simply because they are the better players And not sure why it’s always the terran fans that always complain about balance. If anything it should be the toss fan base that has the right to complain since we been getting the shit end of the stick in every single patch for the past 4 years Oh, Toss players complain just as much... But this tournament their best player lost in PvT which nobody believes to be imbalanced so they had no reason to complain this time
Lol Zerg and toss combine don’t even complain half as much as terran
When Maru lose to toss, the fanboys complain regardless of balance
When Maru lose to Zerg ,the fan boys complain regardless of balance
No one outside Maru fans believe balance is the reason why he lost. Serral has been the superior player for awhile now
When Maru beat dark is recent GSL and reynor in TSL9 no one said a word except “maruGOd”
But once Serral clowned on Maru it turns to “ Zerg Imba queen Imba etc”
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On September 06 2022 00:45 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2022 23:27 Charoisaur wrote:On September 05 2022 23:11 TossHeroes wrote:On September 05 2022 20:33 tigera6 wrote:On September 05 2022 18:44 sirokop wrote:
Serral consistency in defending harass with minimal damage and adapting to what his opponent is doing is unique among top Zergs.
Other top Zergs do it all, but not with such a flawless and almost robotic consistency.
His consistency highlights that with no significant mistake, Zerg pulls ahead in the midgame and beats Terran, at least on the vast majority of maps.
There's so much to say about Zerg strengths (creep, queens, banelings, cost-efficient spell-casters with superior economy), but that's another debate.
I'm convinced that if the SC2 player pool was bigger, we would have 1-2 additional Serral-like Zerg player, and the game would be patched. Yet Serral is not the only Zerg that win tournaments. There are Dark-Rogue-Reynor that share multiple premiere tournament wins as well as World Champion. Other Zerg might not be as efficient as Serral, but that doesnt stop them from winning all these years. And Maru isn’t the only Terran winning tournaments either Let’s take a look at the previous GSL winners the past 2-4 years Terran: Maru, Ty, cure Zerg: rogue and Dark Toss: herO Fact: there are more terran players winning GSL than the other races Zergs have been winning the last couple world championship simply because they are the better players And not sure why it’s always the terran fans that always complain about balance. If anything it should be the toss fan base that has the right to complain since we been getting the shit end of the stick in every single patch for the past 4 years Oh, Toss players complain just as much... But this tournament their best player lost in PvT which nobody believes to be imbalanced so they had no reason to complain this time Lol Zerg and toss combine don’t even complain half as much as terran When Maru lose to toss, the fanboys complain regardless of balance When Maru lose to Zerg ,the fan boys complain regardless of balance No one outside Maru fans believe balance is the reason why he lost. Serral has been the superior player for awhile now When Maru beat dark is recent GSL and reynor in TSL9 no one said a word except “maruGOd” But once Serral clowned on Maru it turns to “ Zerg Imba queen Imba etc”
Nah when a top Protoss got swept by Serral, Reynor, Dark or Rogue there were always tons of people complaining just the same.
Zerg is dominating the scene for 5 years now so Zerg players would look silly complaining
also there were no complaints when Maru lost to herO in the GSL finals
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Maybe it's just me, but I really don't get any vibes from Maru fanboys being bitter or sore loserish. They typically criticise Maru's play, and occasionally raise some tame balance complaints against Zerg. Maybe the praise over Maru's wins may seem excessive at times, but it's understandable since Maru does things no other player in his race can (unlike Zerg and Protoss).
Most balance whines come from Protoss fanboys (which is somewhat also understandable given the terrible state of PvZ for many years).
In fact, everytime Maru loses, I tend to see more of an influx of anti-fans gloating and making fun of imaginary Maru fanboys.
P.S. And this is coming from someone who was rather pissed with Maru denying so many Protoss winning GSL during his miracle 4-championship run.
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On September 06 2022 00:35 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2022 23:27 Charoisaur wrote:On September 05 2022 23:11 TossHeroes wrote:On September 05 2022 20:33 tigera6 wrote:On September 05 2022 18:44 sirokop wrote:
Serral consistency in defending harass with minimal damage and adapting to what his opponent is doing is unique among top Zergs.
Other top Zergs do it all, but not with such a flawless and almost robotic consistency.
His consistency highlights that with no significant mistake, Zerg pulls ahead in the midgame and beats Terran, at least on the vast majority of maps.
There's so much to say about Zerg strengths (creep, queens, banelings, cost-efficient spell-casters with superior economy), but that's another debate.
I'm convinced that if the SC2 player pool was bigger, we would have 1-2 additional Serral-like Zerg player, and the game would be patched. Yet Serral is not the only Zerg that win tournaments. There are Dark-Rogue-Reynor that share multiple premiere tournament wins as well as World Champion. Other Zerg might not be as efficient as Serral, but that doesnt stop them from winning all these years. And Maru isn’t the only Terran winning tournaments either Let’s take a look at the previous GSL winners the past 2-4 years Terran: Maru, Ty, cure Zerg: rogue and Dark Toss: herO Fact: there are more terran players winning GSL than the other races Zergs have been winning the last couple world championship simply because they are the better players And not sure why it’s always the terran fans that always complain about balance. If anything it should be the toss fan base that has the right to complain since we been getting the shit end of the stick in every single patch for the past 4 years Oh, Toss players complain just as much... lol, no. Nobody complains as much as Terrans. It's part of their race identity. Granted, Artosis carries a significant part of that workload by himself.
This is a SC2 thread, which Artosis has barely played in years. When he does play SC2, he's Protoss and complains about how weak they are. There hasn't really been a major Terran whiner since Avilo, who also hasn't had a platform in years since he got banned from everything. Most complaints over the last few years are about Z being too strong, referencing major tournament wins over the last half decade (not to mention their dominance in the foreigner scene). Those complaints would come equally from Terran and Protoss, so I'm not really sure what you're on about when you say complaining is part of the Terran race identity.
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On September 06 2022 00:45 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2022 23:27 Charoisaur wrote:On September 05 2022 23:11 TossHeroes wrote:On September 05 2022 20:33 tigera6 wrote:On September 05 2022 18:44 sirokop wrote:
Serral consistency in defending harass with minimal damage and adapting to what his opponent is doing is unique among top Zergs.
Other top Zergs do it all, but not with such a flawless and almost robotic consistency.
His consistency highlights that with no significant mistake, Zerg pulls ahead in the midgame and beats Terran, at least on the vast majority of maps.
There's so much to say about Zerg strengths (creep, queens, banelings, cost-efficient spell-casters with superior economy), but that's another debate.
I'm convinced that if the SC2 player pool was bigger, we would have 1-2 additional Serral-like Zerg player, and the game would be patched. Yet Serral is not the only Zerg that win tournaments. There are Dark-Rogue-Reynor that share multiple premiere tournament wins as well as World Champion. Other Zerg might not be as efficient as Serral, but that doesnt stop them from winning all these years. And Maru isn’t the only Terran winning tournaments either Let’s take a look at the previous GSL winners the past 2-4 years Terran: Maru, Ty, cure Zerg: rogue and Dark Toss: herO Fact: there are more terran players winning GSL than the other races Zergs have been winning the last couple world championship simply because they are the better players And not sure why it’s always the terran fans that always complain about balance. If anything it should be the toss fan base that has the right to complain since we been getting the shit end of the stick in every single patch for the past 4 years Oh, Toss players complain just as much... But this tournament their best player lost in PvT which nobody believes to be imbalanced so they had no reason to complain this time Lol Zerg and toss combine don’t even complain half as much as terran When Maru lose to toss, the fanboys complain regardless of balance When Maru lose to Zerg ,the fan boys complain regardless of balance No one outside Maru fans believe balance is the reason why he lost. Serral has been the superior player for awhile now When Maru beat dark is recent GSL and reynor in TSL9 no one said a word except “maruGOd” But once Serral clowned on Maru it turns to “ Zerg Imba queen Imba etc”
As a Maru fan, but also trying to be objective, I am not trying to belittle Serral and what he did. But let just look at things on from the Terran side, people call Maru a God because literally hes playing like one within the context of the Terran race. Personally I think he has played very well in the recent months, and hardly made any ape-like mistake like he used to. The phrase people are using in the analysis and game commentary has been "if this was any other Terran, they would be dead" but Maru always manage to make the best of the shitty situation he was in.
And while Serral shows what he can do at a supreme level with Zerg, we have also seen that before from Reynor, Dark, Rogue when they reach their peak performance as well.
So the complain about game balance is somewhat justifiable if you ask the question, what else was Maru supposed to do in the games that he lost? Other than the loss to roach all-in, he play an almost flawless game as well and it was close at some point but in the end he was still short. Maybe a few lucky Mines hit here and there could change the outcome, but Serral didnt "clown" Maru, they both play their best game mechanically and the re-max of Zerg eventually beat out the re-production of Terran.
IF you think that Maru didnt play well and derserve to lose, feel free to enlighten me, and other blind witness out there, of what you would do instead to win the games.
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On September 06 2022 01:07 RKC wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but I really don't get any vibes from Maru fanboys being bitter or sore loserish. They typically criticise Maru's play, and occasionally raise some tame balance complaints against Zerg. Maybe the praise over Maru's wins may seem excessive at times, but it's understandable since Maru does things no other player in his race can (unlike Zerg and Protoss).
Most balance whines come from Protoss fanboys (which is somewhat also understandable given the terrible state of PvZ for many years).
In fact, everytime Maru loses, I tend to see more of an influx of anti-fans gloating and making fun of imaginary Maru fanboys.
P.S. And this is coming from someone who was rather pissed with Maru denying so many Protoss winning GSL during his miracle 4-championship run.
this is a great read on the situation. "imaginary Maru fanboys" lol
Maru had a small but dedicated hate club back in WoL, for reasons I cannot fully explain. yep... it was a long time ago, but the narrative went something like:
"he relies on retarded aggression, cheesy 1-1-1 builds and superior micro as a crutch"
again, this was way back in 2012 and I'm talking about a handful of very vocal haters, not the legions of anti-fans he seems to have now. regardless, I always felt that the dislike towards Maru was disproportionate. maybe it was an age thing. him being so young was always a story-beat talked-to-death by casters. perhaps the distaste grew from his "young virtuoso" storyline being hyped so much.
this is but a mere footnote in the story of MarineKing, who was the real big bad for terran anti-fans back in WoL. MKP eventually fizzled out and disappeared from the scene. Maru and MKP were on the same team and played a similar "obnoxious" micro cheese style, so it happened that Maru was pegged as MarineKing's successor. I think that's how Maru kinda inherited the MKP hate club lol
curiously, ByuN managed to avoid all this nonsense because ByuN is impossible to hate!
it wasn't just toss / zergs being salty either. people were always pissed when he knocked out other terrans like Mvp or MMA (because they played "proper" while Maru was just a cheesy Prime terran). he was infamous for that marine / hellion drop back in the day. I must have watched GuMiho lose to that 100 times on stream
fast-forward to the present day, and you have a massive hate club Maru hate really started to grow when he won back-to-back GSL in 2018 / 2019, and when Serral was becoming a foreign power.
it's not Maru they hate, it's what he represents: Korean dominance, the establishment, the "superior terran mechanics" bias, and the whole pre-approved freeze-dried and vacuum-packed young bonjwa story. "here's your bonjwa now cheer for him" = NO YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO
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Maru has done some amazing things but to say he carried the race alone is a bit of an exaggeration IMO.
There were also some guys called Innovation and TYTY and to some lesser extent Cure and they were called Four Terran Horseman for a reason.
Every race but Zerg has gotten worse representation over the last 5 years. Inno, TY, Stats, Classic, Zest are all world champion caliber of players. Zerg only lost Rogue now
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France13011 Posts
On September 06 2022 17:17 Harris1st wrote:
Maru has done some amazing things but to say he carried the race alone is a bit of an exaggeration IMO.
There were also some guys called Innovation and TYTY and to some lesser extent Cure and they were called Four Terran Horseman for a reason.
Every race but Zerg has gotten worse representation over the last 5 years. Inno, TY, Stats, Classic, Zest are all world champion caliber of players. Zerg only lost Rogue now
Pretty sure ByuN was in the four horsemen and not Cure though.
Outside of that GSL victory, Cure was not super relevant as he choked in every offline tournament he entered iirc.
I agree INno was a staple of terran, but he kinda mostly dominated when terran was in a good spot while Maru was the savior of the race in dark times.
TY was very promising but outside of that IEM win (which was when tank pushes were strong), he only was dominant in 2020 GSL / prep tournaments, on the back of his good TvT.
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On September 06 2022 17:17 Harris1st wrote:
Maru has done some amazing things but to say he carried the race alone is a bit of an exaggeration IMO.
There were also some guys called Innovation and TYTY and to some lesser extent Cure and they were called Four Terran Horseman for a reason.
Every race but Zerg has gotten worse representation over the last 5 years. Inno, TY, Stats, Classic, Zest are all world champion caliber of players. Zerg only lost Rogue now
Zerg also lost two other world championship caliber players in soO and Life
edit: Oh you said in the last 5 years, then just soO
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Just like I said. It does not matter which race wins now as the player base of really good pros is very shallow.
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Wait, are people really trying to pretend that Maru is getting unfairly maligned by the fanbase? Dude gets called godlike every series he plays. I've never seen any player get that kind of consistent admiration since Flash and Jaedong stopped playing. Don't get me wrong, Maru actually deserves the respect he's being given, but pretending that the community hates him is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard.
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On September 07 2022 11:12 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Wait, are people really trying to pretend that Maru is getting unfairly maligned by the fanbase? Dude gets called godlike every series he plays. I've never seen any player get that kind of consistent admiration since Flash and Jaedong stopped playing. Don't get me wrong, Maru actually deserves the respect he's being given, but pretending that the community hates him is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard.
nobody's pretending that the fanbase at large hates him, or that player-bashing is tolerated on well-moderated community hubs like TL, because that would be ludicrous. keep the chat window open when Maru drops out of GSL or loses to a foreigner, read the youtube comments, and then tell me with a straight face that this section of the fanbase doesn't count. sc2 is a lot more mature than other gaming communities. pretending that it is entirely free of haters is pretty naive
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On September 05 2022 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2022 04:56 angry_maia wrote:On September 05 2022 04:33 Nakajin wrote:On September 05 2022 03:58 swarminfestor wrote:
It is obvious Maru TvZ just not good as it should be against Serral before. Definitely different class game he has shown before. He made uncharacteristic micro, also showing weird strategy by not having tone of mines or blue-flames hellbats against massive lings-run by.
Most probably he did not has good practice partner in Z as in older days.
And it was getting worst day by day having Rogue going for military, Solar and DRG still in stagnant mode, and Soo not the same as pre-military service. Only Dark, the top-tier left but he was in different teamgroup and may not helping him much for preparation. Maybe, but thing is Maru still played much better than any terran in the world atm and it wasn't particularly close, so it does beg the question of where we go from here. Cure can't play in any foreign event anymore and dosen't seem to really practice anyway, ByuN is like 30 and is too one dimensional, Bunny and Dream have never step up in big match in a decade long career, Gumi is just back from military and we keep telling ourself that HM and Clem can do it but they essentially never do. Protoss is even more intense, maybe herO can beat Serral if he plays well and Serral play worst than usual, and the list pretty much end there. Serral zvp and zvt kind of are in a "Maru tvt" situation, where everyone that could challenge him retired, so he just win every time without really having to innovate or to get better. If you tell me that Serral dosen't have to play another zvz for the rest of the year I'd probably take 9 to 1 odd that he would win every single tournament he entered. Sure that's because Serral is a beast so he probably deserve it, but it's kind of borring to watch, especially since there's absolutely no indication that it will change in the future (to the contrary). Anyway, I'll still enjoy Starcraft for as long as it last, and the production value was great and very fun, so thanks to the TSL crew!!! Well, the fact that Serral zvp and zvt are "Maru tvt" like suggests that there isn't necessarily something wrong with the match-ups. It could totally just be that Serral is that much better than everyone else, just the same way that Maru is clearlyy better than everyone else when it comes to tvt. Well of course we can never really know for sure if Serral wins 100% because of his skill or because balance is also slightly favouring him but one indicator for me is that the gap between Serral and the 2nd best Zerg is smaller than the gap between Maru and the 2nd terran meaning Maru is actually the bigger outlier for his race but still can't win. Of course it could just be that 4 out of the 5 best players in the world just happened to pick Zerg (and I really don't mean this sarcastically)
I definitely believe Serral’s lack of dominance in ZvZ is a good indication Zerg is too strong. In scbw, dominant players always were extremely strong in the mirror (usually their best match up due to their strong mechanics). I don’t really see anything in Serral’s play to indicate that his ZvT or ZvP matchup knowledge is better than his ZvZ knowledge. I feel like the natural conclusion here is that Zerg is overtuned.
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On September 07 2022 17:53 neveranexit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2022 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:On September 05 2022 04:56 angry_maia wrote:On September 05 2022 04:33 Nakajin wrote:On September 05 2022 03:58 swarminfestor wrote:
It is obvious Maru TvZ just not good as it should be against Serral before. Definitely different class game he has shown before. He made uncharacteristic micro, also showing weird strategy by not having tone of mines or blue-flames hellbats against massive lings-run by.
Most probably he did not has good practice partner in Z as in older days.
And it was getting worst day by day having Rogue going for military, Solar and DRG still in stagnant mode, and Soo not the same as pre-military service. Only Dark, the top-tier left but he was in different teamgroup and may not helping him much for preparation. Maybe, but thing is Maru still played much better than any terran in the world atm and it wasn't particularly close, so it does beg the question of where we go from here. Cure can't play in any foreign event anymore and dosen't seem to really practice anyway, ByuN is like 30 and is too one dimensional, Bunny and Dream have never step up in big match in a decade long career, Gumi is just back from military and we keep telling ourself that HM and Clem can do it but they essentially never do. Protoss is even more intense, maybe herO can beat Serral if he plays well and Serral play worst than usual, and the list pretty much end there. Serral zvp and zvt kind of are in a "Maru tvt" situation, where everyone that could challenge him retired, so he just win every time without really having to innovate or to get better. If you tell me that Serral dosen't have to play another zvz for the rest of the year I'd probably take 9 to 1 odd that he would win every single tournament he entered. Sure that's because Serral is a beast so he probably deserve it, but it's kind of borring to watch, especially since there's absolutely no indication that it will change in the future (to the contrary). Anyway, I'll still enjoy Starcraft for as long as it last, and the production value was great and very fun, so thanks to the TSL crew!!! Well, the fact that Serral zvp and zvt are "Maru tvt" like suggests that there isn't necessarily something wrong with the match-ups. It could totally just be that Serral is that much better than everyone else, just the same way that Maru is clearlyy better than everyone else when it comes to tvt. Well of course we can never really know for sure if Serral wins 100% because of his skill or because balance is also slightly favouring him but one indicator for me is that the gap between Serral and the 2nd best Zerg is smaller than the gap between Maru and the 2nd terran meaning Maru is actually the bigger outlier for his race but still can't win. Of course it could just be that 4 out of the 5 best players in the world just happened to pick Zerg (and I really don't mean this sarcastically) I definitely believe Serral’s lack of dominance in ZvZ is a good indication Zerg is too strong. In scbw, dominant players always were extremely strong in the mirror (usually their best match up due to their strong mechanics). I don’t really see anything in Serral’s play to indicate that his ZvT or ZvP matchup knowledge is better than his ZvZ knowledge. I feel like the natural conclusion here is that Zerg is overtuned.
What you say about mirrors is so true. JvZ, Flash's near unbeatable TvT, and even more recently ASL champs tend to be monsters at mirror matchups at their peak (eg Zero, Rain, Light).
I don't follow the SC2 scene that much to be able to comment on Serral's ZvZ. I do view Reynor off-racing shenanigans as a sign of weakness (if you're a true off-racer, then go random like Flash). But from my casual spectator perspective, ZvZ seems more coin-flippy in BW than in SC2. And yet the top BW Zergs seem to be able to master ZvZ.
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On September 07 2022 18:38 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2022 17:53 neveranexit wrote:On September 05 2022 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:On September 05 2022 04:56 angry_maia wrote:On September 05 2022 04:33 Nakajin wrote:On September 05 2022 03:58 swarminfestor wrote:
It is obvious Maru TvZ just not good as it should be against Serral before. Definitely different class game he has shown before. He made uncharacteristic micro, also showing weird strategy by not having tone of mines or blue-flames hellbats against massive lings-run by.
Most probably he did not has good practice partner in Z as in older days.
And it was getting worst day by day having Rogue going for military, Solar and DRG still in stagnant mode, and Soo not the same as pre-military service. Only Dark, the top-tier left but he was in different teamgroup and may not helping him much for preparation. Maybe, but thing is Maru still played much better than any terran in the world atm and it wasn't particularly close, so it does beg the question of where we go from here. Cure can't play in any foreign event anymore and dosen't seem to really practice anyway, ByuN is like 30 and is too one dimensional, Bunny and Dream have never step up in big match in a decade long career, Gumi is just back from military and we keep telling ourself that HM and Clem can do it but they essentially never do. Protoss is even more intense, maybe herO can beat Serral if he plays well and Serral play worst than usual, and the list pretty much end there. Serral zvp and zvt kind of are in a "Maru tvt" situation, where everyone that could challenge him retired, so he just win every time without really having to innovate or to get better. If you tell me that Serral dosen't have to play another zvz for the rest of the year I'd probably take 9 to 1 odd that he would win every single tournament he entered. Sure that's because Serral is a beast so he probably deserve it, but it's kind of borring to watch, especially since there's absolutely no indication that it will change in the future (to the contrary). Anyway, I'll still enjoy Starcraft for as long as it last, and the production value was great and very fun, so thanks to the TSL crew!!! Well, the fact that Serral zvp and zvt are "Maru tvt" like suggests that there isn't necessarily something wrong with the match-ups. It could totally just be that Serral is that much better than everyone else, just the same way that Maru is clearlyy better than everyone else when it comes to tvt. Well of course we can never really know for sure if Serral wins 100% because of his skill or because balance is also slightly favouring him but one indicator for me is that the gap between Serral and the 2nd best Zerg is smaller than the gap between Maru and the 2nd terran meaning Maru is actually the bigger outlier for his race but still can't win. Of course it could just be that 4 out of the 5 best players in the world just happened to pick Zerg (and I really don't mean this sarcastically) I definitely believe Serral’s lack of dominance in ZvZ is a good indication Zerg is too strong. In scbw, dominant players always were extremely strong in the mirror (usually their best match up due to their strong mechanics). I don’t really see anything in Serral’s play to indicate that his ZvT or ZvP matchup knowledge is better than his ZvZ knowledge. I feel like the natural conclusion here is that Zerg is overtuned. What you say about mirrors is so true. JvZ, Flash's near unbeatable TvT, and even more recently ASL champs tend to be monsters at mirror matchups at their peak (eg Zero, Rain, Light). I don't follow the SC2 scene that much to be able to comment on Serral's ZvZ. I do view Reynor off-racing shenanigans as a sign of weakness (if you're a true off-racer, then go random like Flash). But from my casual spectator perspective, ZvZ seems more coin-flippy in BW than in SC2. And yet the top BW Zergs seem to be able to master ZvZ.
Drawing too many conclusions from comparing BW and SC2 is a bit dangerous as they are different games.
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On September 06 2022 11:14 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2022 00:35 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On September 05 2022 23:27 Charoisaur wrote:On September 05 2022 23:11 TossHeroes wrote:On September 05 2022 20:33 tigera6 wrote:On September 05 2022 18:44 sirokop wrote:
Serral consistency in defending harass with minimal damage and adapting to what his opponent is doing is unique among top Zergs.
Other top Zergs do it all, but not with such a flawless and almost robotic consistency.
His consistency highlights that with no significant mistake, Zerg pulls ahead in the midgame and beats Terran, at least on the vast majority of maps.
There's so much to say about Zerg strengths (creep, queens, banelings, cost-efficient spell-casters with superior economy), but that's another debate.
I'm convinced that if the SC2 player pool was bigger, we would have 1-2 additional Serral-like Zerg player, and the game would be patched. Yet Serral is not the only Zerg that win tournaments. There are Dark-Rogue-Reynor that share multiple premiere tournament wins as well as World Champion. Other Zerg might not be as efficient as Serral, but that doesnt stop them from winning all these years. And Maru isn’t the only Terran winning tournaments either Let’s take a look at the previous GSL winners the past 2-4 years Terran: Maru, Ty, cure Zerg: rogue and Dark Toss: herO Fact: there are more terran players winning GSL than the other races Zergs have been winning the last couple world championship simply because they are the better players And not sure why it’s always the terran fans that always complain about balance. If anything it should be the toss fan base that has the right to complain since we been getting the shit end of the stick in every single patch for the past 4 years Oh, Toss players complain just as much... lol, no. Nobody complains as much as Terrans. It's part of their race identity. Granted, Artosis carries a significant part of that workload by himself. This is a SC2 thread, which Artosis has barely played in years. When he does play SC2, he's Protoss and complains about how weak they are. There hasn't really been a major Terran whiner since Avilo, who also hasn't had a platform in years since he got banned from everything. Most complaints over the last few years are about Z being too strong, referencing major tournament wins over the last half decade (not to mention their dominance in the foreigner scene). Those complaints would come equally from Terran and Protoss, so I'm not really sure what you're on about when you say complaining is part of the Terran race identity.
Artosis has been casting GSL, the world's premier SC2 tournament, for the past twelve years. He has far more of a platform to vent his opinions than any SC2 player. And yes, he still complains like a Terran.
As for complaining being part of Terran's identity, every race complains about balance when they're doing poorly, but Terran is the only race that complains even when they're doing well.
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On September 07 2022 18:38 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2022 17:53 neveranexit wrote:On September 05 2022 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:On September 05 2022 04:56 angry_maia wrote:On September 05 2022 04:33 Nakajin wrote:On September 05 2022 03:58 swarminfestor wrote:
It is obvious Maru TvZ just not good as it should be against Serral before. Definitely different class game he has shown before. He made uncharacteristic micro, also showing weird strategy by not having tone of mines or blue-flames hellbats against massive lings-run by.
Most probably he did not has good practice partner in Z as in older days.
And it was getting worst day by day having Rogue going for military, Solar and DRG still in stagnant mode, and Soo not the same as pre-military service. Only Dark, the top-tier left but he was in different teamgroup and may not helping him much for preparation. Maybe, but thing is Maru still played much better than any terran in the world atm and it wasn't particularly close, so it does beg the question of where we go from here. Cure can't play in any foreign event anymore and dosen't seem to really practice anyway, ByuN is like 30 and is too one dimensional, Bunny and Dream have never step up in big match in a decade long career, Gumi is just back from military and we keep telling ourself that HM and Clem can do it but they essentially never do. Protoss is even more intense, maybe herO can beat Serral if he plays well and Serral play worst than usual, and the list pretty much end there. Serral zvp and zvt kind of are in a "Maru tvt" situation, where everyone that could challenge him retired, so he just win every time without really having to innovate or to get better. If you tell me that Serral dosen't have to play another zvz for the rest of the year I'd probably take 9 to 1 odd that he would win every single tournament he entered. Sure that's because Serral is a beast so he probably deserve it, but it's kind of borring to watch, especially since there's absolutely no indication that it will change in the future (to the contrary). Anyway, I'll still enjoy Starcraft for as long as it last, and the production value was great and very fun, so thanks to the TSL crew!!! Well, the fact that Serral zvp and zvt are "Maru tvt" like suggests that there isn't necessarily something wrong with the match-ups. It could totally just be that Serral is that much better than everyone else, just the same way that Maru is clearlyy better than everyone else when it comes to tvt. Well of course we can never really know for sure if Serral wins 100% because of his skill or because balance is also slightly favouring him but one indicator for me is that the gap between Serral and the 2nd best Zerg is smaller than the gap between Maru and the 2nd terran meaning Maru is actually the bigger outlier for his race but still can't win. Of course it could just be that 4 out of the 5 best players in the world just happened to pick Zerg (and I really don't mean this sarcastically) I definitely believe Serral’s lack of dominance in ZvZ is a good indication Zerg is too strong. In scbw, dominant players always were extremely strong in the mirror (usually their best match up due to their strong mechanics). I don’t really see anything in Serral’s play to indicate that his ZvT or ZvP matchup knowledge is better than his ZvZ knowledge. I feel like the natural conclusion here is that Zerg is overtuned. What you say about mirrors is so true. JvZ, Flash's near unbeatable TvT, and even more recently ASL champs tend to be monsters at mirror matchups at their peak (eg Zero, Rain, Light). I don't follow the SC2 scene that much to be able to comment on Serral's ZvZ. I do view Reynor off-racing shenanigans as a sign of weakness (if you're a true off-racer, then go random like Flash). But from my casual spectator perspective, ZvZ seems more coin-flippy in BW than in SC2. And yet the top BW Zergs seem to be able to master ZvZ.
I'm not that educuated about BW's finer ZvZ points, but I do know that SC2's ZvZ is incredible volatile as in a perfect matchup for underdogs to punch 1-2 leagues above them
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On September 07 2022 20:58 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2022 18:38 RKC wrote:On September 07 2022 17:53 neveranexit wrote:On September 05 2022 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:On September 05 2022 04:56 angry_maia wrote:On September 05 2022 04:33 Nakajin wrote:On September 05 2022 03:58 swarminfestor wrote:
It is obvious Maru TvZ just not good as it should be against Serral before. Definitely different class game he has shown before. He made uncharacteristic micro, also showing weird strategy by not having tone of mines or blue-flames hellbats against massive lings-run by.
Most probably he did not has good practice partner in Z as in older days.
And it was getting worst day by day having Rogue going for military, Solar and DRG still in stagnant mode, and Soo not the same as pre-military service. Only Dark, the top-tier left but he was in different teamgroup and may not helping him much for preparation. Maybe, but thing is Maru still played much better than any terran in the world atm and it wasn't particularly close, so it does beg the question of where we go from here. Cure can't play in any foreign event anymore and dosen't seem to really practice anyway, ByuN is like 30 and is too one dimensional, Bunny and Dream have never step up in big match in a decade long career, Gumi is just back from military and we keep telling ourself that HM and Clem can do it but they essentially never do. Protoss is even more intense, maybe herO can beat Serral if he plays well and Serral play worst than usual, and the list pretty much end there. Serral zvp and zvt kind of are in a "Maru tvt" situation, where everyone that could challenge him retired, so he just win every time without really having to innovate or to get better. If you tell me that Serral dosen't have to play another zvz for the rest of the year I'd probably take 9 to 1 odd that he would win every single tournament he entered. Sure that's because Serral is a beast so he probably deserve it, but it's kind of borring to watch, especially since there's absolutely no indication that it will change in the future (to the contrary). Anyway, I'll still enjoy Starcraft for as long as it last, and the production value was great and very fun, so thanks to the TSL crew!!! Well, the fact that Serral zvp and zvt are "Maru tvt" like suggests that there isn't necessarily something wrong with the match-ups. It could totally just be that Serral is that much better than everyone else, just the same way that Maru is clearlyy better than everyone else when it comes to tvt. Well of course we can never really know for sure if Serral wins 100% because of his skill or because balance is also slightly favouring him but one indicator for me is that the gap between Serral and the 2nd best Zerg is smaller than the gap between Maru and the 2nd terran meaning Maru is actually the bigger outlier for his race but still can't win. Of course it could just be that 4 out of the 5 best players in the world just happened to pick Zerg (and I really don't mean this sarcastically) I definitely believe Serral’s lack of dominance in ZvZ is a good indication Zerg is too strong. In scbw, dominant players always were extremely strong in the mirror (usually their best match up due to their strong mechanics). I don’t really see anything in Serral’s play to indicate that his ZvT or ZvP matchup knowledge is better than his ZvZ knowledge. I feel like the natural conclusion here is that Zerg is overtuned. What you say about mirrors is so true. JvZ, Flash's near unbeatable TvT, and even more recently ASL champs tend to be monsters at mirror matchups at their peak (eg Zero, Rain, Light). I don't follow the SC2 scene that much to be able to comment on Serral's ZvZ. I do view Reynor off-racing shenanigans as a sign of weakness (if you're a true off-racer, then go random like Flash). But from my casual spectator perspective, ZvZ seems more coin-flippy in BW than in SC2. And yet the top BW Zergs seem to be able to master ZvZ. I'm not that educuated about BW's finer ZvZ points, but I do know that SC2's ZvZ is incredible volatile as in a perfect matchup for underdogs to punch 1-2 leagues above them
Which Zerg underdog has punched Serral, Reynor, Rogue and Dark off their perch in the knockout stage of a major tourney? The only example I can think of is Elazer upsetting Dark in Blizzcon. And Rogue slumping in group stage after a big tourney win happens across all matchups and doesn't count.
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