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TSL 9 - Week 1
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[TSL 9] - Week 1
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments |
Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
CSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: Team Liquid | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1455 Posts
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
On July 29 2022 21:33 CicadaSC wrote: whats going on with clem soo they just skipped over that match, did a player no-show? I think it was a bit too early for Clem since he sleeps super late | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
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dysenterymd
1177 Posts
On July 29 2022 21:56 Vindicare605 wrote: So how the hell did the brackets work out where Gumiho and DRG and Serral and Solar have to face each other in the first round and Reynor plays against some Protoss I've never heard of before? I think it was seeded by EPT points before HSC, and since Serral missed Valencia/did badly in EU regionals he was significantly underrated. Probably the same with Gumiho, while he's looking quite good recently it's not like he has a bunch of EPT points. The bracket does look very lopsided though, even considering EPT points is an imperfect metric. | ||
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ZombieGrub
United States692 Posts
On July 29 2022 21:36 Poopi wrote: I think it was a bit too early for Clem since he sleeps super late I *think* this is just a joke but it is unfair to Clem to assume he didn't show up because he slept in. soO was unavailable for some reason, but Clem/soO will be played tomorrow. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On July 29 2022 23:59 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I was just watching the GSL finals vod so I missed most of this. How have the games been? One sided stomps and then a PvP. JK I didn't actually see Solar vs Serral but everything else has been one sided. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On July 30 2022 00:16 Vindicare605 wrote: One sided stomps and then a PvP. JK I didn't actually see Solar vs Serral but everything else has been one sided. I see what you mean. | ||
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shindiginit
21 Posts
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QOGQOG
828 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
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Elentos
55458 Posts
On July 30 2022 02:17 swarminfestor wrote: Did Maru board the flight already? Are you sure he can make to the schedule tomorrow? Only top 12 players play offline, the rest of the tournament is online. | ||
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Master of DalK
Canada1797 Posts
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stilt
France2746 Posts
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Elentos
55458 Posts
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
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Elentos
55458 Posts
On July 30 2022 22:42 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Wow, Ryung just lost splitmap TvZ. Ryung is pretty bad against Zerg. He also lost split map against Elazer at HSC. Elazer and Lambo aren't exactly the peak of late game Zerg either. | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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Elentos
55458 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
And the worst seeding goes to Ragnarok, Zoun, DRG and Gumiho, which makes it a KR vs KR into KR vs KR in both the winner and the losers bracket, in the first two rounds  Like, imagine if the format instead was a classic group stage. You get a Clem-Serral-soO-Solar group, and then you get a 4 korean group with Ragnarok, Zoun, DRG and Gumiho, and on the other side you have Creator-Rex-TIME-Meomaika | ||
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
On July 30 2022 23:14 Durnuu wrote: Man, this bracket is really badly seeded. Not only the top vs bottom half that a lot of people already pointed out, but quite a few same region matches (Time vs Meomaika, DRG vs GuMiho, Elazer vs Showtime, Byun vs Classic...) in the first round, which feels stupid in a tournament where you had REGIONAL qualifiers (and yes, I did make sure the players came from the same regional qualifier before criticizing). And the worst seeding goes to Ragnarok, Zoun, DRG and Gumiho, which makes it a KR vs KR into KR vs KR in both the winner and the losers bracket, in the first two rounds Like, imagine if the format instead was a classic group stage. You get a Clem-Serral-soO-Solar group, and then you get a 4 korean group with Ragnarok, Zoun, DRG and Gumiho, and on the other side you have Creator-Rex-TIME-Meomaika why don't u start ur own tournament series without EPT points called "gnomestory cup" and just handseed all the players  | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On July 30 2022 23:30 Waxangel wrote: why don't u start ur own tournament series without EPT points called "gnomestory cup" and just handseed all the players What a mature and level-headed response. Extra funny that you want me to handseed all the players when my main criticism is not with the differing strength of the players but something more objective - the region they qualified from. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
On July 30 2022 23:40 Durnuu wrote: What a mature and level-headed response. Extra funny that you want me to handseed all the players when my main criticism is not with the differing strength of the players but something more objective - the region they qualified from. also solvable with handseeding! | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
Yeah, but why would I be like Apollo and rig my brackets if I have something more objective to base the seeding off of?  | ||
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
On July 30 2022 23:48 Durnuu wrote: Yeah, but why would I be like Apollo and rig my brackets if I have something more objective to base the seeding off of? but those are the EPT points this bracket is seeded off of  | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On July 30 2022 23:50 Waxangel wrote: but those are the EPT points this bracket is seeded off of Which makes no sense for an international tournament, since EPT points basically have two different circuits. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
On July 30 2022 23:51 Durnuu wrote: Which makes no sense for an international tournament, since EPT points basically have two different circuits. glad u noticed that after 2.5 years and 20 tournaments | ||
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tigera6
3220 Posts
On July 30 2022 23:47 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Maru 1-1 Rattata O.o Till this day, I still dont get why Maru keep moving out against 1-1 Roach army while he wasn maxed out | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On July 30 2022 23:52 Waxangel wrote: glad u noticed that after 2.5 years and 20 tournaments 2.5 years during which there were all those online DH Masters and there hasn't been a single instance of more than 2 players from the same region in the same group. Or is TSL is the only international tournament to seed with EPT points? | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
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dysenterymd
1177 Posts
On July 30 2022 23:13 Elentos wrote: Now discrediting Ryung's TvZ aside, I think the meta in that matchup is appalling. The last patch ultimately made PvZ enjoyable but didn't do anything for TvZ. We just have people trying to turtle to ghost mech every other game now. I might be wrong about this, but I think it'll be impossible to fix TvZ without making changes that will implicate other matchups in a big way. Ideally, late game Terran turtle would be a little weaker and Terran would have an easier time dealing damage in the early/mid game, but doing that would probably involve touching the Queen, Ghost, and maybe even some core Zerg units like the baneling. PvZ would 100% need to be rebalanced too, and PvT would probably need further changes. Considering the lack of resources dedicated to SC2 right now, such a major change feels out of reach even if it's needed. By contrast, the queen nerf had very little impact on match ups other than PvZ and the void ray nerf only really impacted PvZ and PvP. I'd support tackling the queen issue once and for all, but that's such a can of worms there would probably have to be multiple follow up patches shortly after. For the time being I guess we can just hope for maps that are small and hard to split, though those two goals are often in conflict. | ||
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QOGQOG
828 Posts
On July 31 2022 00:24 dysenterymd wrote: I might be wrong about this, but I think it'll be impossible to fix TvZ without making changes that will implicate other matchups in a big way. Ideally, late game Terran turtle would be a little weaker and Terran would have an easier time dealing damage in the early/mid game, but doing that would probably involve touching the Queen, Ghost, and maybe even some core Zerg units like the baneling. PvZ would 100% need to be rebalanced too, and PvT would probably need further changes. Considering the lack of resources dedicated to SC2 right now, such a major change feels out of reach even if it's needed. By contrast, the queen nerf had very little impact on match ups other than PvZ and the void ray nerf only really impacted PvZ and PvP. I'd support tackling the queen issue once and for all, but that's such a can of worms there would probably have to be multiple follow up patches shortly after. For the time being I guess we can just hope for maps that are small and hard to split, though those two goals are often in conflict. Small hard to split maps = two base push all game every game. | ||
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Elentos
55458 Posts
Maybe for starters we can revert the drilling claws nerf from last patch that wasn't needed at all and then slightly tone down snipe | ||
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Lokol18
51 Posts
On July 31 2022 00:35 QOGQOG wrote: Small hard to split maps = two base push all game every game. Yeah I'm not sure what the community really expects with making it harder for Ts to win late game. They already basically can't win in the mid game. Nerfing late game via balance patches or maps just leads to Ts going for early all ins | ||
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Moonerz
United States442 Posts
"Dont let them get there" | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
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TossHeroes
281 Posts
On July 30 2022 23:51 Durnuu wrote: Which makes no sense for an international tournament, since EPT points basically have two different circuits. Who cares? Goat Serral gonna win this tournament ez pz Also rattata failed the sc2 community Would have been funny to see Maru lose in this very easy bracket early on User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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LostUsername100
85 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
On July 31 2022 01:14 LostUsername100 wrote: Using Aligulac to seed is definitely much better to seed tournaments than EPT points, specially early in the season. I actually think this could be a pretty good idea, just because there aren't any other 'objective' ranking measures | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On July 31 2022 01:16 Waxangel wrote: I actually think this could be a pretty good idea, just because there aren't any other 'objective' ranking measures If you guys used Aligulac to seed I would rage. EPT points as flawed as they are at least are consistent with how other sports seed (Tennis), and are results driven relevant to the season. I didn't know you guys were seeding with EPT points, when I made my first remarks about the bracket disparity. It's kind of a one off situation that guys like Gumiho are so low rated because he just got back to active status and missed some events. It's better this way. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
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LostUsername100
85 Posts
On July 31 2022 01:20 Vindicare605 wrote: If you guys used Aligulac to seed I would rage. EPT points as flawed as they are at least are consistent with how other sports seed (Tennis), and are results driven relevant to the season. I didn't know you guys were seeding with EPT points, when I made my first remarks about the bracket disparity. It's kind of a one off situation that guys like Gumiho are so low rated because he just got back to active status and missed some events. It's better this way. You'd rage at getting better brackets? Interesting thing to "rage" at. I'm not sure because Y does X, is a reason to do X. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On July 31 2022 01:52 LostUsername100 wrote: You'd rage at getting better brackets? Interesting thing to "rage" at. I'm not sure because Y does X, is a reason to do X. The brackets wouldn't be much better if they used Aligulac, and it would be one step further at "legitimizing" aligulac when Aligulac is already taken way more seriously than it should be. | ||
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LostUsername100
85 Posts
On July 31 2022 02:08 Vindicare605 wrote: The brackets wouldn't be much better if they used Aligulac, and it would be one step further at "legitimizing" aligulac when Aligulac is already taken way more seriously than it should be. You have to be kidding to think brackets weren't going to be better with Aligulac. Top10 Players on top side of bracket: #1 Serral #3 Reynor #5 herO #6Clem #8Byun Top 10 players on bottom side of the bracket: #2 Maru This sounds like some koreaboo copium from the fact Serral is #1 since 2018 pretty much. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On July 31 2022 02:51 LostUsername100 wrote: You have to be kidding to think brackets weren't going to be better with Aligulac. Top10 Players on top side of bracket: #1 Serral #3 Reynor #5 herO #6Clem #8Byun Top 10 players on bottom side of the bracket: #2 Maru This sounds like some koreaboo copium from the fact Serral is #1 since 2018 pretty much. No it's simply based on the fact I hate Aligulac and all of the people that worship it as "legit." I do not want to have tournaments start using it for seeding. EPT is all fucked up this season, TL should not have used it but AT THE VERY LEAST, they can't be blamed for using it because that's how Blizzcon's in the past have been seeded (I've always had issues with that too because of regionlocking) so it's an established if flawed way of drawing up brackets. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On July 31 2022 03:04 Vindicare605 wrote: No it's simply based on the fact I hate Aligulac and all of the people that worship it as "legit." I do not want to have tournaments start using it for seeding. EPT is all fucked up this season, TL should not have used it but AT THE VERY LEAST, they can't be blamed for using it because that's how Blizzcon's in the past have been seeded (I've always had issues with that too because of regionlocking) so it's an established if flawed way of drawing up brackets. It has its problems, but it's probably still the best way one could do a seeding based on metrics. It seems to be fairly decent? The main problem is that it's obviously too slow to have the 'correct' seeding for any particular tournament, but that's an issue with any point based system tbh. | ||
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dysenterymd
1177 Posts
Considering how quickly form can change in SC2 I don't think there's any perfect system. As long as formats are somewhat forgiving (like double elim) I can look past a few seeding problems. | ||
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Lokol18
51 Posts
On July 31 2022 02:51 LostUsername100 wrote: This sounds like some koreaboo copium from the fact Serral is #1 since 2018 pretty much. No need to name call when no one cared about aligulac until a foreigner made it to the top of its ranking. Imo it's super disingenuous to start caring about something (in this instance aligulac) just 'cause it supports my beliefs | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
Normaly I would have said a power ranking but since the TL staf is lazy only puttinf out like 5 articles a week (seriously though what the hell, you guys are machine) I vote for our very own GOAT contest, clearly the most fair and precise assessment of players true skills that has ever been done. Everyone that wasn't in it get DQ since they played in a post-INno world. But on a more serious note, I think the EPT point ranking is generally quite good, but it did get somewhat disrupted by the fact that so many players skipped offline event. | ||
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JJH777
United States4378 Posts
Bonus of the above is it would provide more incentive to play in the first qualifier and you hopefully wouldn't have players slacking (Reynor) or simply skipping (Maru) in the first qualifier. | ||
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dysenterymd
1177 Posts
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t5Fab
182 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
Changing the system just to adjust for those special circumstances would be pretty much handpicking in order to get your personal favored results so I understands Wax's objection. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
On July 31 2022 16:54 Durnuu wrote: Careful guys, if you criticize the seeding too much Wax will descend upon you with his condescending tone. I'm very protective of my niche of complaining without offering reasonable solutions | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On July 31 2022 19:12 Charoisaur wrote: I think doing the seeding based on EPT points is pretty sensible, just because this time it resulted in some undesired results due to some special circumstances like Serral skipping DH Valencia and Gumiho needing a bit of time to get in shape after military doesn't mean the system is bad. Changing the system just to adjust for those special circumstances would be pretty much handpicking in order to get your personal favored results so I understands Wax's objection. I still don't see why you can't add a regional stratification to your seeding. What's the point of having regional qualifiers if you're gonna make them play against each other in the first round? (especially when said qualifiers are ACTUALLY region-locked, unlike TSL 8 or how IEM used to do them where it was just server-bound). I'm also curious which other international tournaments used EPT seedings with no regional stratification, because other than TSL and IEM Katowice (the latter being obvious because it's the culmination of the circuit...), I didn't see one while looking through the premier list, but it's also hard to see because we don't have the EPT points by the point the tournament started. Perhaps NeXT was also one, but it looked to me more like random chinese grouping than EPT seeding. | ||
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Curufinwe Feanor
Brazil91 Posts
On July 31 2022 02:06 Waxangel wrote: damn, kelazhur beating special like it's 2017 Yea babyy KelaGod Mode on!! | ||
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
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Elentos
55458 Posts
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Elentos
55458 Posts
Or move away from spreading a 1 weekend tournament out to 1 month. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On July 31 2022 21:19 Elentos wrote: Might be time to cut down the number of players from 32 and go back to starting in Bo5. This first weekend of TSL has been mostly devoid of excitement. To be fair, it's also because the games have been kind of bad outside of one or two series. (Lambo-Ryung was fun for me personnaly) Sometime the SC2 gods just don't want to cooperate. | ||
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Elentos
55458 Posts
On July 31 2022 21:29 Nakajin wrote: To be fair, it's also because the games have been kind of bad outside of one or two series. (Lambo-Ryung was fun for me personnaly) Sometime the SC2 gods just don't want to cooperate. See the problem with that is that most of the matches already weren't expected to be good on paper. They've mostly met expectations and it's still been a mediocre at best weekend of SC2. Is that the standard we want for our "premier" events? | ||
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
On July 31 2022 21:29 Nakajin wrote: To be fair, it's also because the games have been kind of bad outside of one or two series. (Lambo-Ryung was fun for me personnaly) Sometime the SC2 gods just don't want to cooperate. Average 'entertainment quality' of SC2 games is lower than our memory fools us into thinking, and that's also the case in a lot of traditional sports (at least the ones I follow anyway). It's more that SC2 tournaments are generally feeling thin in the lower rounds, like GSL was before it cut to RO20 from RO28 (it was an interesting decision to have ur top four players sit out the entire first round ) , or WCS/DHM Opens before they get down to like 24-ish players. In an environment where DHM/WCS cuts entire rounds of play from the main stream and even GSL is cutting their first stage to 20, I think it's reasonable to wonder if 32 is "too big" a starting point in the current state of SC2. | ||
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Elentos
55458 Posts
E: I wonder how many people watching this event are even aware Frodan has any history with SC2 to be honest. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
On July 31 2022 21:42 Elentos wrote: And now we interrupt the scheduled Best of ZvZ broadcast to bring you a Psistorm Gaming teamkill E: I wonder how many people watching this event are even aware Frodan has any history with SC2 to be honest. Certainly a few if there are people who don't know DRG is DongRaeGu and spam NASL sound guy whenever there's an audio issue | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
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Elentos
55458 Posts
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On July 31 2022 21:40 Elentos wrote: See the problem with that is that most of the matches already weren't expected to be good on paper. They've mostly met expectations and it's still been a mediocre at best weekend of SC2. Is that the standard we want for our "premier" events? Perhaps we'd see the matches as more interesting if, say, players that don't play each against one another often played each other for once. Like say, players from different regions... | ||
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Elentos
55458 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
On July 31 2022 22:27 Elentos wrote: It's very frustrating to watch Gerald play this. He's basically dying to armies he could easily destroy because he never knows where they are. I was thinking professional sports should be played in very dark arenas with limited lighting around the players all these supposed 'field generals' using perfect information as a crutch how good is Kevin de Bruyne, REALLY? | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On July 31 2022 22:37 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Just realised all the Zergs got mirrors in the loser's bracket. Good! | ||
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
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dysenterymd
1177 Posts
Still, I don't think downsizing is a great solution for all tournaments. I think it's good when qualification for bigger tournaments is something peripheral players have a chance to play for. Maybe the solution is to just have an A and B stream for earlier rounds in tournaments like TSL? In a tournament like GSL downsizing makes sense because we expect all matches to be streamed, but the same isn't true of a tournament like TSL. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On July 31 2022 23:44 dysenterymd wrote: Still, I don't think downsizing is a great solution for all tournaments. I think it's good when qualification for bigger tournaments is something peripheral players have a chance to play for. Maybe the solution is to just have an A and B stream for earlier rounds in tournaments like TSL? In a tournament like GSL downsizing makes sense because we expect all matches to be streamed, but the same isn't true of a tournament like TSL. Qualifiers are vital. They're the lifeblood that allows new talent to have a chance to grow. We just need to learn to accept as old time fans that if we want tournaments that give any chance to new talent then we have to accept that some matches are going to be lopsided and stompy. It happens. We COULD avoid that with round robin formats, that's sort of the reason they exist, but then we bump into other problems of massively uneven groupings (fucking IEM) and matches losing their meaning after a while because groups get decided early. There are other things we can try, we should NOT be downsizing the tournaments though. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
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Athenau
569 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On August 01 2022 00:50 Athenau wrote: How the hell is Ryung so good at TvP and so terrible at TvZ? Ryung has only ever understood 2 match ups in his career. TvT and one of the other ones. They've shifted around a bit. I remember he used to be an absolute liability vs Protoss earlier in his career and pretty decent vs Zerg. He's always been a good TvT player. Slayers used to use him as a sniper for it back in the day. He's never been as consistent in any other match up. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4165 Posts
On August 01 2022 00:15 Vindicare605 wrote: Qualifiers are vital. They're the lifeblood that allows new talent to have a chance to grow. We just need to learn to accept as old time fans that if we want tournaments that give any chance to new talent then we have to accept that some matches are going to be lopsided and stompy. It happens. We COULD avoid that with round robin formats, that's sort of the reason they exist, but then we bump into other problems of massively uneven groupings (fucking IEM) and matches losing their meaning after a while because groups get decided early. There are other things we can try, we should NOT be downsizing the tournaments though. Agreed. | ||
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EmoBacon
41 Posts
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