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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On March 28 2022 22:34 Moonerz wrote: Oddly enough I think people watch just to balance whine it's like a whole second game for them lol or maybe even the main event. I watch StarCraft masochistically, only watching Protoss and only expecting them to lose, once theyre out I sigh and tune out. Im not sure why I do this to myself. | ||
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Athenau
571 Posts
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Waradmiral
4 Posts
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Poopi
France12911 Posts
On March 29 2022 00:35 Athenau wrote: Byun going 4-3 vs Zoun and Nightmare doesn't really sound like imbalance. It’s for too early to judge anyways, we haven’t even seen how the patch plays out in Europe big competitions. EPT cups is nice but the stakes aren’t very high so we will have to wait for the beginning of DH:EU most likely | ||
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Athenau
571 Posts
On March 29 2022 00:40 Poopi wrote: It’s for too early to judge anyways, we haven’t even seen how the patch plays out in Europe big competitions. EPT cups is nice but the stakes aren’t very high so we will have to wait for the beginning of DH:EU most likely Going 2-2 vs Zoun and 2-1 vs Nightmare (a much weaker player) isn't really an indication of anything. Ryung vs Zest was an upset, this isn't. | ||
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16121 Posts
On March 28 2022 22:19 Nebuchad wrote: Are you going to post this in every LR thread? I wasn't going to until I saw the fallout from the Zest series. Yet it was exactly what happened. | ||
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darklycid
3541 Posts
On March 29 2022 04:09 Vindicare605 wrote: I wasn't going to until I saw the fallout from the Zest series. Yet it was exactly what happened. Only natural, ever seen terran in 2017 threads? It's just a mix of ur race not perfroming as well and fav players losing ppl get salty. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12425 Posts
On March 28 2022 23:25 Zambrah wrote: I watch StarCraft masochistically, only watching Protoss and only expecting them to lose, once theyre out I sigh and tune out. Im not sure why I do this to myself. Did that for at least two years before I finally stopped watching. Made my life worse by a decent margin. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On March 29 2022 00:40 Poopi wrote: It’s for too early to judge anyways, we haven’t even seen how the patch plays out in Europe big competitions. EPT cups is nice but the stakes aren’t very high so we will have to wait for the beginning of DH:EU most likely I mean, Protoss has performed atrociously in the past few months and seeing as they got the worst end of the stick with the balance patch I don't see why it would change now. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1153 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16121 Posts
On March 29 2022 04:45 darklycid wrote: Only natural, ever seen terran in 2017 threads? It's just a mix of ur race not perfroming as well and fav players losing ppl get salty. And it was fucking stupid then too. Look right now, Protoss players can't even describe WHAT they think needs to be buffed about their race in order for it to perform better. I've seen shit like nerfing EMP (which wouldn't help them vs Zerg) or bringing back the Mothership Core (which is never going to happen) but nothing realistic about where specifically in the match ups the problems actually are. They just say "no Protoss players are winning" but they never say who they think SHOULD be beating the top players in the world right now. The only top Protoss who isn't either in the military, just about to go to the military, or just got out of the military right now is Trap. He's literally the only one. There's no top Protoss from Europe or NA bursting onto the scene either, so where exactly are these wins supposed to be coming from? And say what you want about Trap, but he does NOT inspire the same level of confidence as the lone Protoss hope that Maru did as the lone Terran hope not that long ago. So all this whining. It's just pointless. If Protoss players want to complain about balance the least they can do is come up with what exactly they think is imbalanced, because I'm not seeing ANY of that anywhere. At least when Terrans whined they whined about specific things they thought was unfair. | ||
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Husyelt
United States837 Posts
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Melliflue
United Kingdom1389 Posts
On March 29 2022 09:57 Vindicare605 wrote: And it was fucking stupid then too. Look right now, Protoss players can't even describe WHAT they think needs to be buffed about their race in order for it to perform better. I've seen shit like nerfing EMP (which wouldn't help them vs Zerg) or bringing back the Mothership Core (which is never going to happen) but nothing realistic about where specifically in the match ups the problems actually are. They just say "no Protoss players are winning" but they never say who they think SHOULD be beating the top players in the world right now. The only top Protoss who isn't either in the military, just about to go to the military, or just got out of the military right now is Trap. He's literally the only one. There's no top Protoss from Europe or NA bursting onto the scene either, so where exactly are these wins supposed to be coming from? And say what you want about Trap, but he does NOT inspire the same level of confidence as the lone Protoss hope that Maru did as the lone Terran hope not that long ago. So all this whining. It's just pointless. If Protoss players want to complain about balance the least they can do is come up with what exactly they think is imbalanced, because I'm not seeing ANY of that anywhere. At least when Terrans whined they whined about specific things they thought was unfair. I think Protoss fans are frustrated that they haven't won a Code S since Stats in season 1 of 2017. Five years without a win is a long time, and includes years before Stats and Classic left for military service. For comparison, Terran have seen wins for Maru, Innovation, TY, Cure, and Gumiho more recently than any Protoss. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16121 Posts
On March 29 2022 15:44 Melliflue wrote: I think Protoss fans are frustrated that they haven't won a Code S since Stats in season 1 of 2017. Five years without a win is a long time, and includes years before Stats and Classic left for military service. For comparison, Terran have seen wins for Maru, Innovation, TY, Cure, and Gumiho more recently than any Protoss. Yet Protoss has been in the finals in 12/19 of the last GSL events (including Super Tournaments) since the start of 2019. and 20/29 events since 2017. I'm going to cross off GSL vs the World because that event doesn't count it was a glorified all star game. So that's 12/18 since 2019 and 20/28 since 2017. Protoss doesn't really have a complaint about being competitive when 71% of the GSL tournaments played since 2017 have had at least one Protoss in the finals. Winning a final is a whole other thing entirely, just ask soO. Was Zerg underpowered because it couldn't win a GSL title for so long despite the fact that soO was in every fucking final? No. It was just soO not being able to seal the deal. The fact is and I will keep repeating this. Protoss doesn't have a player like Maru or Rogue in its ranks. Someone that is ALWAYS solid, always consistently performing and always contending. Zest is the most successful Protoss in terms of GSL titles and not even the most devoted of fans would call him consistent. You maybe could argue and I have before that the race isn't designed to be a model of consistency, or players that like consistent gameplay gravitate towards Terran or Zerg. That's a conversation that could be and probably should be had (more like it should have been more seriously talked about in WoL) but in terms of just not winning Protoss is weak? No, you can't make that argument. 71% of GSL events since 2017 have had a Protoss in the final. This idea that they deserve buffs because they aren't winning is completely wrong. EDIT: last point. That 71% btw, that's several different players too. That's not the race being propped up by one player like soO with Zerg or Maru with Terran. That's how I know for sure that the race itself is fine and not just one outlier player carrying it. | ||
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darklycid
3541 Posts
On March 29 2022 16:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Yet Protoss has been in the finals in 12/19 of the last GSL events (including Super Tournaments) since the start of 2019. and 20/29 events since 2017. I'm going to cross off GSL vs the World because that event doesn't count it was a glorified all star game. So that's 12/18 since 2019 and 20/28 since 2017. Protoss doesn't really have a complaint about being competitive when 71% of the GSL tournaments played since 2017 have had at least one Protoss in the finals. Winning a final is a whole other thing entirely, just ask soO. Was Zerg underpowered because it couldn't win a GSL title for so long despite the fact that soO was in every fucking final? No. It was just soO not being able to seal the deal. The fact is and I will keep repeating this. Protoss doesn't have a player like Maru or Rogue in its ranks. Someone that is ALWAYS solid, always consistently performing and always contending. Zest is the most successful Protoss in terms of GSL titles and not even the most devoted of fans would call him consistent. You maybe could argue and I have before that the race isn't designed to be a model of consistency, or players that like consistent gameplay gravitate towards Terran or Zerg. That's a conversation that could be and probably should be had (more like it should have been more seriously talked about in WoL) but in terms of just not winning Protoss is weak? No, you can't make that argument. 71% of GSL events since 2017 have had a Protoss in the final. This idea that they deserve buffs because they aren't winning is completely wrong. EDIT: last point. That 71% btw, that's several different players too. That's not the race being propped up by one player like soO with Zerg or Maru with Terran. That's how I know for sure that the race itself is fine and not just one outlier player carrying it. For the case of ppl not having good ideas what is imbalanced I'd say it's hard to pinpoint currently, PvT doesn't strike me as imbalanced there is just some volatility in the matchup in strategies and certain units (blink opener vs hellion drop, widow mine, disruptor etc) which makes it hard to really say x is imbalanced while in PvZ whenever you think x is a problem and it gets touched it feels like the next thing appears that makes the mu dumb which to me speaks to there being a more fundamental issue with it that probably won't get solved in SC2 anymore. So in the end protoss players are just not having fun watching tournaments currently and are at a point where they are just throwing complains/ideas out there as they become more and more frustrated. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
On March 29 2022 16:13 Vindicare605 wrote: You maybe could argue and I have before that the race isn't designed to be a model of consistency, or players that like consistent gameplay gravitate towards Terran or Zerg. That's a conversation that could be and probably should be had (more like it should have been more seriously talked about in WoL) but in terms of just not winning Protoss is weak? No, you can't make that argument. 71% of GSL events since 2017 have had a Protoss in the final. This idea that they deserve buffs because they aren't winning is completely wrong. EDIT: last point. That 71% btw, that's several different players too. That's not the race being propped up by one player like soO with Zerg or Maru with Terran. That's how I know for sure that the race itself is fine and not just one outlier player carrying it. Pretty much my pov. And I'm not sure this discussion would be so hot if Zest hadn't gone full baboon vs Ryung. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On March 29 2022 16:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Yet Protoss has been in the finals in 12/19 of the last GSL events (including Super Tournaments) since the start of 2019. and 20/29 events since 2017. I'm going to cross off GSL vs the World because that event doesn't count it was a glorified all star game. So that's 12/18 since 2019 and 20/28 since 2017. Protoss doesn't really have a complaint about being competitive when 71% of the GSL tournaments played since 2017 have had at least one Protoss in the finals. Winning a final is a whole other thing entirely, just ask soO. Was Zerg underpowered because it couldn't win a GSL title for so long despite the fact that soO was in every fucking final? No. It was just soO not being able to seal the deal. The fact is and I will keep repeating this. Protoss doesn't have a player like Maru or Rogue in its ranks. Someone that is ALWAYS solid, always consistently performing and always contending. Zest is the most successful Protoss in terms of GSL titles and not even the most devoted of fans would call him consistent. You maybe could argue and I have before that the race isn't designed to be a model of consistency, or players that like consistent gameplay gravitate towards Terran or Zerg. That's a conversation that could be and probably should be had (more like it should have been more seriously talked about in WoL) but in terms of just not winning Protoss is weak? No, you can't make that argument. 71% of GSL events since 2017 have had a Protoss in the final. This idea that they deserve buffs because they aren't winning is completely wrong. EDIT: last point. That 71% btw, that's several different players too. That's not the race being propped up by one player like soO with Zerg or Maru with Terran. That's how I know for sure that the race itself is fine and not just one outlier player carrying it. half a year ago I would have agreed with you but recently we have seen multiple tournaments where Protoss just got destroyed from the first round on and this is imo just unacceptable, no matter which mental gymnastics in the form of 'there just aren't enough top players' or 'they just played badly' you apply. You say Protoss doesn't have a player like Maru or Rogue. I say Trap may very well be on the same level, but his race could be holding him back. When Protoss was still doing better he outperformed the mentioned players for a significant period. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On March 29 2022 17:17 darklycid wrote: For the case of ppl not having good ideas what is imbalanced I'd say it's hard to pinpoint currently, PvT doesn't strike me as imbalanced there is just some volatility in the matchup in strategies and certain units (blink opener vs hellion drop, widow mine, disruptor etc) which makes it hard to really say x is imbalanced while in PvZ whenever you think x is a problem and it gets touched it feels like the next thing appears that makes the mu dumb which to me speaks to there being a more fundamental issue with it that probably won't get solved in SC2 anymore. So in the end protoss players are just not having fun watching tournaments currently and are at a point where they are just throwing complains/ideas out there as they become more and more frustrated. There are lots of things that could be done to help Protoss out like reverting the previous nerfs to Prisms, Immortals or the upgrade timings, all nerfs which are no longer necessary. For PvT in particular I think both, Ghosts and Disruptors are OP but that's probably more of a design issue as they balance each other out. I'd like to see both nerfed though. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16121 Posts
On March 29 2022 17:34 Charoisaur wrote: half a year ago I would have agreed with you but recently we have seen multiple tournaments where Protoss just got destroyed from the first round on and this is imo just unacceptable, no matter which mental gymnastics in the form of 'there just aren't enough top players' or 'they just played badly' you apply. You say Protoss doesn't have a player like Maru or Rogue. I say Trap may very well be on the same level, but his race could be holding him back. When Protoss was still doing better he outperformed the mentioned players for a significant period. No. Trap is not a Maru or a Rogue. He can't finish tournaments the way those two can. And it doesn't surprise me at all that ever since JinAir broke up Trap hasn't come close to what he was doing when he was still teammates with those two. As for why it's so much worse now than it was 6 months ago, a few things are at play, most notably that top Protoss players keep retiring or going into the military. Losing Parting is a huge loss because he was probably THE most consistent Protoss outside of Trap that Starcraft 2 had. While he wasn't always contending for a title you knew he was AT LEAST Ro8 in every tournament he played in. If we look at the foreign scene, Maxpax is the only Protoss player that actually looks like he's getting better. Other more Veteran Protoss players have either gotten worse or stayed stagnant and not improved in their performances since they've hit their peaks. Meanwhile Reynor and Clem keep getting better all the time, and HeroMarine has also dramatically improved his play over the last 2 years. So Protoss performance in the foreign scene keeps declining as the new up and comers steal more and more top finishes. There's also the map pool to consider, I've been saying to everyone that will listen that the maps have been favoring Zerg for far too long and whatever complaints Terrans have about the map pool vs Zerg Protoss probably has all of those same complaints and then some. I can point to a dozen different things that are causing this Protoss decline that don't have anything to do with game balance. It's also telling that while Protoss is declining in tournament result wins they continue to absolutely dominate the ladder in 2/3 major regions. So I don't see game balance as the problem here. I just don't. We can't just inflate Protoss win percentages by giving them a bunch of buffs so that weaker Protoss players start winning. That's not going to be healthy for the game because it's going to create this unsustainable cycle of just constantly buffing whichever race is performing the worst and never getting a stable meta to form. It's also going to make the game a nightmare to actually play for everyone that isn't a pro. | ||
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