On December 13 2021 11:40 tigera6 wrote: I dont get why people are so upset because of what Rogue did, other than they are being Serral fanboy. I mean Terran got shit ton of early pressure build that will kill the Zerg if they dont defend properly, from Hellbat to BC rush to 3 Racks. Protoss also got the Archon-Chargelot, 6 gate Glaive, DT, ect..What Rogue did is simply forcing a response from his opponent, and use that to leverage into a long macro if it is defended. But Serral never did defend it properly, and thats why he lost.
Who is upset? Here on TL most comments are about how hilarious and roguelike that was. If you are talking about twitch chat then newsflash, twitch chat is always upset
On December 13 2021 20:43 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: IMO he's Zerg Goat by a fair margin, and one of only two serious overall contenders.
Honest question: Did Rogue overtake Inno already? Last I checked Inno was one of only two serious contenders but that's probably been over a year ago now
That’s a pretty tough one. Inno was better in probably the highest level, cut-throat era, Rogue has been consistently good but excellent in the current rough era, while Inno fell off the top.
Too tough to call, I’d have little argument with anyone favouring one or the other, I’d still personally go Inno
I think I’d give it to Rogue despite the less cutthroat competition but for Zerg being so in the ascendency in ZvP for quite some period now.
Rogue was one of the best Proleague players though. Also fun fact, during the Inno peak Maru beat him in one of the fastest BO7 evah xD The thing which many inno fans pretend never happen.
Honest question: Did Rogue overtake Inno already? Last I checked Inno was one of only two serious contenders but that's probably been over a year ago now
Without a doubt yes. For me Rogue is the most accomplished player in SC2 history and has the strongest claim at GOAT, but that is arguable based on how different people weigh different achievements across all the SC2 eras.
On December 13 2021 23:16 MarianoSC2 wrote: Without a doubt yes. For me Rogue is the most accomplished player in SC2 history and has the strongest claim at GOAT, but that is arguable based on how different people weigh different achievements across all the SC2 eras.
I think it's always going to come down to whether you value accolades of what the player has won, or if you value their baseline performance level in how likely they are to win against anybody on any day.
Rogue I think has a strong claim to best accolades, but his baseline form is not very high. He can lose to B-tier players in random tournys he doesn't care about, but then he can also make literally anyone look like a clown if it's in a long series he's prepared for.
On December 13 2021 23:16 MarianoSC2 wrote: Without a doubt yes. For me Rogue is the most accomplished player in SC2 history and has the strongest claim at GOAT, but that is arguable based on how different people weigh different achievements across all the SC2 eras.
I think it's always going to come down to whether you value accolades of what the player has won, or if you value their baseline performance level in how likely they are to win against anybody on any day.
Rogue I think has a strong claim to best accolades, but his baseline form is not very high. He can lose to B-tier players in random tournys he doesn't care about, but then he can also make literally anyone look like a clown if it's in a long series he's prepared for.
Yeah, thats true. We could try doing a hexagon for top 3 or top 5 players with criteria such as peak skill/performance, achievements, consistency, longevity and some other stuff which could be of use to evaluate. Each of those would have max points based on how important that attribute is to decide who is the best. Could be fun
On December 13 2021 23:16 MarianoSC2 wrote: Without a doubt yes. For me Rogue is the most accomplished player in SC2 history and has the strongest claim at GOAT, but that is arguable based on how different people weigh different achievements across all the SC2 eras.
I think it's always going to come down to whether you value accolades of what the player has won, or if you value their baseline performance level in how likely they are to win against anybody on any day.
Rogue I think has a strong claim to best accolades, but his baseline form is not very high. He can lose to B-tier players in random tournys he doesn't care about, but then he can also make literally anyone look like a clown if it's in a long series he's prepared for.
Peak level - Maru Finding a way to win/clutch factor - Rogue Baseline level - Serral Underdog factor - Mvp
Maru for me, when he’s playing his best is just the best SC2 player ever, in a pure skill factor. He does jaw-dropping things with regularity, but not always.
When it comes to digging a win out via whatever means are needed, Rogue, 100%. Be it supreme preparation, be it abusing an imba meta, or just playing like a god, Rogue can pull it all off.
Serral is basically never outright bad ever, even in a rare 3-0 defeat all of the individual sets will be 51/49 against him. Not going to argue he’s the GOAT by any means but I think it’s fair to say he’s brutally consistent
I have to mention Mvp for bias sake, but some of the scalps he obtained with pure brains and strats purely through strategy, after an initial period where he was the best mechanically ate impressive.
On December 13 2021 23:16 MarianoSC2 wrote: Without a doubt yes. For me Rogue is the most accomplished player in SC2 history and has the strongest claim at GOAT, but that is arguable based on how different people weigh different achievements across all the SC2 eras.
I think it's always going to come down to whether you value accolades of what the player has won, or if you value their baseline performance level in how likely they are to win against anybody on any day.
Rogue I think has a strong claim to best accolades, but his baseline form is not very high. He can lose to B-tier players in random tournys he doesn't care about, but then he can also make literally anyone look like a clown if it's in a long series he's prepared for.
Peak level - Maru Finding a way to win/clutch factor - Rogue Baseline level - Serral Underdog factor - Mvp
I think that is a pretty good way to look at it. I personally will always be fond of Rogue. He is a fascinating player in every way.
On December 13 2021 23:16 MarianoSC2 wrote: Without a doubt yes. For me Rogue is the most accomplished player in SC2 history and has the strongest claim at GOAT, but that is arguable based on how different people weigh different achievements across all the SC2 eras.
I think it's always going to come down to whether you value accolades of what the player has won, or if you value their baseline performance level in how likely they are to win against anybody on any day.
Rogue I think has a strong claim to best accolades, but his baseline form is not very high. He can lose to B-tier players in random tournys he doesn't care about, but then he can also make literally anyone look like a clown if it's in a long series he's prepared for.
Peak level - Maru Finding a way to win/clutch factor - Rogue Baseline level - Serral Underdog factor - Mvp
I think that is a pretty good way to look at it. I personally will always be fond of Rogue. He is a fascinating player in every way.
He’s a great fucking player, anyone claiming otherwise is a lunatic.
Honest question: Did Rogue overtake Inno already? Last I checked Inno was one of only two serious contenders but that's probably been over a year ago now
Without a doubt yes. For me Rogue is the most accomplished player in SC2 history and has the strongest claim at GOAT, but that is arguable based on how different people weigh different achievements across all the SC2 eras.
if you just look at the names of the tournaments he won without any context he has the most impressive trophy collection. However I don't think you can equal a GSL in 2021 to a GSL in 2015 as back then it just had a way stronger lineup. Adding context to their titles I think Maru is ahead of him as he won 2 Starleagues during the Kespa era.
Honest question: Did Rogue overtake Inno already? Last I checked Inno was one of only two serious contenders but that's probably been over a year ago now
Without a doubt yes. For me Rogue is the most accomplished player in SC2 history and has the strongest claim at GOAT, but that is arguable based on how different people weigh different achievements across all the SC2 eras.
if you just look at the names of the tournaments he won without any context he has the most impressive trophy collection. However I don't think you can equal a GSL in 2021 to a GSL in 2015 as back then it just had a way stronger lineup. Adding context to their titles I think Maru is ahead of him as he won 2 Starleagues during the Kespa era.
Even the GSL roster way into the post-Kespa era had considerably more depth than it does now.
Bracket luck, especially in favourable racial matchups is going to be a thing regardless of the field.
Nowadays it’s pretty huge as a factor because there are pretty huge gaps in quality.
Previously you might dodge a nemesis, or you might get your stronger matchups, ultimately you still had to run a gauntlet of players who are pretty close to your level. Now you might only meet one or two real championship calibre folks in a title winning run.
Didn’t actually work out last season but Dark exiting along with Maru in the round of 8, and Zest taking out Rogue kind of was the perfect bracket to see a Protoss championship
Though it didn’t exactly work out for us Protoss I mean I think it does illustrate the lack of depth and bracket’s importance. You’ve got Dark playing Rogue and Trap against Maru in the Ro8 and you’re already losing 2/4 best players in the field. And not just best players but best by a fair distance (in general)
This isn’t to take away from Rogue, you can only defeat what’s in front of you, and we’ve seen some other changes in the scene.
The World Championships have previously gated off Koreans who were better than the foreigners who got to go, whereas nowadays you’ve got genuine S class foreigners/less in Korea, so to run the Katowice gauntlet you really are having to peak and beat the best in the world in a way you didn’t in the past
Yeah its all good points. I think when you want to select an all time greatest, achievements (tournament wins) should be the highest factor, always, in any sport. And obviously talking about the highest level most prestigious tournaments here. In that regard Rogue for me is clearly the best.
But if we start to factor in stats like consistency, longevity, peak performance, its quite close between the trifecta Maru, Rogue Inno with Maru probably having and edge due to him being a contender across all eras and just pure skill wise being the best of them.
The World Championships have previously gated off Koreans who were better than the foreigners who got to go,
only from 2016 on. in the HotS era at most 1 foreigner made it to Blizzcon. and Katowice never had fixed spots for foreigners
I think he’s got better though, albeit at the same time the level of competition has also dropped.
I think this incarnation of Rogue, Trap or Serral especially of 2018 vintage would have been extremely competitive in the Kespa times, indeed it’s possible that they’re maybe liberated by that regime ending.
There have been many incarnations of Blizzcon format wise, maybe I’m getting my wires crossed.
If memory serves you had many years where ‘foreign’ Koreans took a lot of slots, when the creme de la creme were realistically basically all in GSL, least with Blizzcon
Maru also has his completely insane proleague results to add to his GOAT claim. I feel like his proleague results are more impressive than a lot of individual championships and they are barely brought up. It's my understanding that in those days a lot of players were making more from salary than winnings (barring the few top guys winning big events) and proleague performance determined your salary. Going back and looking at those stats he seems like the obvious best proleague player. The only thing that hurts him is that he wasn't in the first sc2 proleague season at all but from the 2014-2016 seasons he had crazy results.
EPT
