Super Tournament 3
Streams & Casters
Format
- Single-elimination bracket:
- Round of 16 are Bo5.
- Quarterfinals are Bo5.
- Semifinals are Bo5.
- Finals are Bo7.
Map Pool
Quarterfinals
Results
CSS: FO-nTTaX
Awesomeness: Panda
Banner: GSL
Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments |
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51319 Posts
Super Tournament 3Streams & CastersFormat
Map Pool QuarterfinalsResultsCSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: GSL | ||
swarminfestor
Malaysia2298 Posts
Head: Cure, Dark, Zoun, Maru Heart: Trap, Rogue, Solar and herO all the way to semifinal. | ||
freaquency88
Malaysia14 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17430 Posts
On November 29 2021 17:09 Mozdk wrote: Anyone getting buffering on youtube? The streams have been fine the other days. yep, seems ok now though | ||
Die4Ever
United States17430 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17430 Posts
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Durnuu
13269 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17430 Posts
On November 29 2021 17:13 Durnuu wrote: This matchup just does not disappoint Rogue vs Dark is the best rivalry in years, maybe ever | ||
Durnuu
13269 Posts
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Shathe
Hungary422 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17430 Posts
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Durnuu
13269 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2298 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2298 Posts
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Durnuu
13269 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4724 Posts
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Durnuu
13269 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2298 Posts
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Shathe
Hungary422 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4724 Posts
On November 29 2021 17:52 swarminfestor wrote: Don't worry Dark. You still have a chance to revenge in TSL 8. they always meet in the ro8, do they? | ||
swarminfestor
Malaysia2298 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2298 Posts
On November 29 2021 17:53 Argonauta wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2021 17:52 swarminfestor wrote: Don't worry Dark. You still have a chance to revenge in TSL 8. they always meet in the ro8, do they? Provided that Rogue beat Showtime. It could be the other way around. Edit: You knew when you were the best Zerg player in earth, you would meet very often in the match ups. | ||
Durnuu
13269 Posts
On November 29 2021 17:53 Argonauta wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2021 17:52 swarminfestor wrote: Don't worry Dark. You still have a chance to revenge in TSL 8. they always meet in the ro8, do they? I think they met in the ro4 once, but yeah pretty much. Definitely never get to meet in finals | ||
Mutaller
United States1007 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4724 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2298 Posts
On November 29 2021 17:59 Argonauta wrote: wait in 2hours rogue plays another ZvZ vs lambo at next? Hope he catch the metro on time Rogue has another match again today? | ||
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On November 29 2021 18:02 swarminfestor wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2021 17:59 Argonauta wrote: wait in 2hours rogue plays another ZvZ vs lambo at next? Hope he catch the metro on time Rogue has another match again today? Yeah, in the Netease tournament group stage. | ||
Elentos
55454 Posts
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Durnuu
13269 Posts
On November 29 2021 18:12 Elentos wrote: Imagine blinking all your stalkers forward into 5 tanks and 10 marauders just to kill a liberator #worth | ||
Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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Mutaller
United States1007 Posts
Rooting for protoss, even though they destroy me on ladder | ||
Elentos
55454 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
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Elentos
55454 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
Gogo Cure! | ||
dbRic1203
Germany2644 Posts
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Elentos
55454 Posts
Probably would have been better though to just expand when he saw Cure was 1-base. | ||
Durnuu
13269 Posts
On November 29 2021 18:29 dbRic1203 wrote: Trap v Cure is way better than Dark v Rogue What are you smoking | ||
Elentos
55454 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2298 Posts
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Elentos
55454 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
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Elentos
55454 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2298 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2298 Posts
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tigera6
2899 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
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Whatson
United States5353 Posts
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tigera6
2899 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
On November 29 2021 19:02 Whatson wrote: So from what the commentators said, Trap is the best PvT in the world? I hope that was just a terrible series from him, or else the level of Protoss players has fallen quite a bit in the past year. Well, he for sure used to be, not sure about him being the best now. But it's not like he has a big competition for the title. Neeb is locked in NA and far from his glorious days, there's none in Europe who can snipe Clem and in Korea the best Protosses are Trap and Zoun and I would put Trap above Zoun. Maybe herO can give us a hope but a BO5 against Maru is a tough one. We can hope. | ||
Durnuu
13269 Posts
On November 29 2021 19:06 deacon.frost wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2021 19:02 Whatson wrote: So from what the commentators said, Trap is the best PvT in the world? I hope that was just a terrible series from him, or else the level of Protoss players has fallen quite a bit in the past year. Well, he for sure used to be, not sure about him being the best now. But it's not like he has a big competition for the title. Neeb is locked in NA and far from his glorious days, there's none in Europe who can snipe Clem and in Korea the best Protosses are Trap and Zoun and I would put Trap above Zoun. Maybe herO can give us a hope but a BO5 against Maru is a tough one. We can hope. There is also Zest, but current Zest is in a mega slump after his GSL finals and even before he was so inconsistent it was hard calling him the best PvTer | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
On November 29 2021 19:07 Durnuu wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2021 19:06 deacon.frost wrote: On November 29 2021 19:02 Whatson wrote: So from what the commentators said, Trap is the best PvT in the world? I hope that was just a terrible series from him, or else the level of Protoss players has fallen quite a bit in the past year. Well, he for sure used to be, not sure about him being the best now. But it's not like he has a big competition for the title. Neeb is locked in NA and far from his glorious days, there's none in Europe who can snipe Clem and in Korea the best Protosses are Trap and Zoun and I would put Trap above Zoun. Maybe herO can give us a hope but a BO5 against Maru is a tough one. We can hope. There is also Zest, but current Zest is in a mega slump after his GSL finals and even before he was so inconsistent it was hard calling him the best PvTer Zest isn't exactly a stable performer in LOTV though. Ignoring his pre-army slump nowadays. | ||
darklycid
3131 Posts
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Elentos
55454 Posts
On November 29 2021 19:10 darklycid wrote: I think it's also Traps way of playing requires him to be very sharp and on top of his play if he is not it tends to fall apart quite quick and look horrible, but then he is and looks pretty unbeatable. The thing is also his play in game 1 was so stable and the game was not close at all. And then Trap just abandoned all sanity for the rest of the series. | ||
Durnuu
13269 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
On November 29 2021 19:18 Durnuu wrote: These guys are playing like foreigners In the end Solar's English is better than many foreign players, so why not Edit> Hmmpf, I'm sorry I cursed Zoun xD | ||
Elentos
55454 Posts
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Poopi
France12463 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
On November 29 2021 19:35 Elentos wrote: Imagine how bad Zoun's build must be to lose hard even with disruptor shots like that It's me, I cursed him, I apologized above. | ||
DBooN
Germany2701 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
GG Solar. | ||
darklycid
3131 Posts
On November 29 2021 19:46 DBooN wrote: So is it fair to say protoss is in trouble, when they can't even make it to ro4 in Super Tournament? At this point i'm just waiting for us to think that so that they suddenly do really well in TSL | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
On November 29 2021 19:46 DBooN wrote: So is it fair to say protoss is in trouble, when they can't even make it to ro4 in Super Tournament? herO will win! What a story,what a comeback! | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15614 Posts
On November 29 2021 19:46 DBooN wrote: So is it fair to say protoss is in trouble, when they can't even make it to ro4 in Super Tournament? in herO we trust | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2298 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2298 Posts
On November 29 2021 19:47 Charoisaur wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2021 19:46 DBooN wrote: So is it fair to say protoss is in trouble, when they can't even make it to ro4 in Super Tournament? in herO we trust My heart is telling that herO is winning. Guess what? It is just a dream after all. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
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Durnuu
13269 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17430 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11348 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11523 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15614 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8298 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15614 Posts
worked out though | ||
Durnuu
13269 Posts
On November 29 2021 20:19 Charoisaur wrote: Maru is unstoppable in TvT and TvZ and in TvP there's no Protoss left to threaten him with Trap slumping and Zest going to military. herO might actually be one of the best PvTer atm I'd argue it's not even that he's unstoppable in TvT, but the same as Protoss; no one left to threaten him | ||
Durnuu
13269 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15614 Posts
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Durnuu
13269 Posts
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Durnuu
13269 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17430 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15614 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8298 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2298 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15614 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4724 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2644 Posts
On November 29 2021 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: The casters making it seem way closer than it was for a long time Thats why I watch GSL with the EU Pro gamer comentary, they called that last game like 15min ago | ||
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
Unless Maru just 2raxes the poor guy 3 times in a row :D | ||
Nebuchad
Switzerland11348 Posts
On November 29 2021 20:53 MarianoSC2 wrote: Despite getting swept by Maru, both herO and Classic make me quite hopeful for some fiercer protoss resistance in the next year Not sure what you're going to need to lose hope. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15614 Posts
On November 29 2021 20:56 dbRic1203 wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2021 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: The casters making it seem way closer than it was for a long time Thats why I watch GSL with the EU Pro gamer comentary, they called that last game like 15min ago GSL is not GSL for me without Artosis casting | ||
Harris1st
Germany6114 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
On November 29 2021 20:56 dbRic1203 wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2021 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: The casters making it seem way closer than it was for a long time Thats why I watch GSL with the EU Pro gamer comentary, they called that last game like 15min ago THat's the difference between casters and noncasters though. Caster is there to promote the game you're watching. | ||
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On November 29 2021 20:56 dbRic1203 wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2021 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: The casters making it seem way closer than it was for a long time Thats why I watch GSL with the EU Pro gamer comentary, they called that last game like 15min ago Where does one watch this? It sounds great. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8759 Posts
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Zambrah
United States6831 Posts
On November 29 2021 21:00 Nebuchad wrote: Show nested quote + On November 29 2021 20:53 MarianoSC2 wrote: Despite getting swept by Maru, both herO and Classic make me quite hopeful for some fiercer protoss resistance in the next year Not sure what you're going to need to lose hope. The battered and beaten Protoss spirit is oddly hard to break. | ||
xelnaga_empire
613 Posts
On November 29 2021 18:57 swarminfestor wrote: How much TvP streak Cure has recorded till now? Cure literally lost to Trap, in Dreamhack Winter, just a few weeks ago. In fact, it was Trap that knocked Cure out of Dreamhack Winter. It's strange how some people have such a short memory. | ||
Poopi
France12463 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
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tigera6
2899 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
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Poopi
France12463 Posts
Solar looked as confident as ever, will be an interesting ro4. Cure had a good run but I don’t see him beat Rogue seeing how their games looked in code S. New map pool though, who knows? | ||
tigera6
2899 Posts
Solar is also considered as one of the best Zerg in lategame, and his problem was how to get there safely, normally he died to either proxy or minedrop or helion runby. Will be interesting if Solar vs Maru would be full of lategame this time around. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8797 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States15707 Posts
Either way. Not doing good on my bets this season at all. Probably going to be another Maru vs Rogue final. | ||
Elentos
55454 Posts
On November 30 2021 02:12 Vindicare605 wrote: Trap has definitely fallen from his streak of being the most elite Protoss in the world. He's sloppy and making many questionable decisions, but thanks to a total lack of competition that has to be taken seriously he's still #1. | ||
JJH777
United States4276 Posts
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Kitai
United States835 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
On November 30 2021 03:15 JJH777 wrote: Protoss underperformance is getting concerning fast. Obviously they've been underperforming for a long time in terms of trophies but they've always been fine in terms of ro8/ro4 representation and making it to the finals. For the last few months they've just been doing outright atrocious on every metric besides GM representation. There were 3 Protosses in the RO8 though. So the representation is OK-ish. In the winter finals we had 2 Protosses in the RO8. KoB is kinda tough considering the top Protosses there were Classic and herO who are still not their top tier pre-army state(although herO is aiming there fast) | ||
Vindicare605
United States15707 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
It would actually clarified why did he go full derp after winning the first game against Cure. He has some nice 2nd places at high tournanents so there may be a nerve problem. Well, or maybe I'm projecting :D But imagine the pressure... that must be big. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15707 Posts
On November 30 2021 07:36 deacon.frost wrote: I honestly wonder if the issue isn't Trap and his nerves. To be the only top tier Protoss has to be an insane pressure. Maru doesn't give a fuck to be the only Terran hope and in the end, he can always show towards the C boys. Zergs are laughing with their world championship streak of 5 different players, 4 still active. It would actually clarified why did he go full derp after winning the first game against Cure. He has some nice 2nd places at high tournanents so there may be a nerve problem. Well, or maybe I'm projecting :D But imagine the pressure... that must be big. I've never considered Trap a "champion quality" player because of his nerves. He lacks the killer mentality that Rogue, Maru, and Dark have. Parting had it. Zest had it. They had their own issues sure but I never doubted their nerves. He just isn't the kind of player who I would want to rely on to carry a race when its other players are struggling. | ||
J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
But knowing the game is not so young anymore I can see the concern. I feel like a lategame upgrade that allowed faster warpins within range of a nexus would be interesting. Probably not feasible... I get the sense there aren't any P players who are really trying to push boundaries any more. Maybe they feel their isn't enough incentive this late in the game's lifespan? I'm not sure. Hoping Maru can make some magic, or a Cure win would be great for him. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15707 Posts
On November 30 2021 08:07 J. Corsair wrote: No zerg slump that I can remember or am I mistaken? No because infuriatingly whenever it looked in the past like Zerg might be struggling with something it got patched quickly. I say infuriatingly because Blizzard let 2012 and 2019 happen for an entire year or even longer of the dumbest most broken Zerg shit go on before they finally did anything about it. So no. The longest Zerg slump was in the early goings of WoL. Ever since Zerg has been competitive at least if not overpowered. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15614 Posts
On November 30 2021 08:14 Vindicare605 wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2021 08:07 J. Corsair wrote: No zerg slump that I can remember or am I mistaken? No because infuriatingly whenever it looked in the past like Zerg might be struggling with something it got patched quickly. I say infuriatingly because Blizzard let 2012 and 2019 happen for an entire year or even longer of the dumbest most broken Zerg shit go on before they finally did anything about it. So no. The longest Zerg slump was in the early goings of WoL. Ever since Zerg has been competitive at least if not overpowered. I'd argue mid-late 2015 was pretty bad for Zerg with Turtle-Mech and 3 Base Blink meta | ||
Poopi
France12463 Posts
On November 30 2021 08:31 Charoisaur wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2021 08:14 Vindicare605 wrote: On November 30 2021 08:07 J. Corsair wrote: No zerg slump that I can remember or am I mistaken? No because infuriatingly whenever it looked in the past like Zerg might be struggling with something it got patched quickly. I say infuriatingly because Blizzard let 2012 and 2019 happen for an entire year or even longer of the dumbest most broken Zerg shit go on before they finally did anything about it. So no. The longest Zerg slump was in the early goings of WoL. Ever since Zerg has been competitive at least if not overpowered. I'd argue mid-late 2015 was pretty bad for Zerg with Turtle-Mech and 3 Base Blink meta Blizzard was probably too focused on LotV to fix it quickly? I am a bit scared for Maru against Solar, especially since every time I predict Solar to lose he wins somehow. | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
On November 30 2021 08:51 Xain0n wrote: Before the rise(in chronological order) of Rogue, Serral, Dark(who was already world class in 2016 but had collected significantly second places than successes) and Reynor, Zerg was by far the race with the least victories at "Premier" level; if we exclude the first BL Infestor era in 2012, Zerg as a race had never really been dominant in Sc2. Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. DRG - 1 Code S Nestea - 3 Code S Life - 2 Code S, 1 WC Soulkey - 1 Code S Solar - 1 Starleague And I skipped both RorO and sniper. Also the lower tournaments were being won by Stephano, Solar, HyuN, Snute, JD, Leenock and others. It doesn't look as bad as people are pretending, especially considering soO was able to accumulate pretty hefty colleciton of 2nd places. Edit> and not just soO, just checked Byul and he has 2 2nd places from the Code S and one from SSL. Zergs in slump | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On November 30 2021 10:14 deacon.frost wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2021 08:51 Xain0n wrote: Before the rise(in chronological order) of Rogue, Serral, Dark(who was already world class in 2016 but had collected significantly second places than successes) and Reynor, Zerg was by far the race with the least victories at "Premier" level; if we exclude the first BL Infestor era in 2012, Zerg as a race had never really been dominant in Sc2. Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. DRG - 1 Code S Nestea - 3 Code S Life - 2 Code S, 1 WC Soulkey - 1 Code S Solar - 1 Starleague And I skipped both RorO and sniper. Also the lower tournaments were being won by Stephano, Solar, HyuN, Snute, JD, Leenock and others. It doesn't look as bad as people are pretending, especially considering soO was able to accumulate pretty hefty colleciton of 2nd places. You also forgot Fruitdealer and Soulkey as Code S winners; however, overall, Zerg in 2017 was a couple of successful seasons behind the other two races in terms of triumphs(first places), whereas they had collected a significant amount of second places and placements already. It surely didn't look bad for Zerg before(nothing like, for example, the miserable record of Undead in Warcraft 3) but, just as surely, the least winningnest race orphan of Life needed a new generation of champions. Fortunately, said champions rose and won; unfortunately they went too far, also because of certain favourable metas/maps which they wouldn't have needed, so that now Zerg is the most successful race in the history of Sc2 by a considerable margin. | ||
JJH777
United States4276 Posts
On November 30 2021 08:51 Xain0n wrote: Before the rise(in chronological order) of Rogue, Serral, Dark(who was already world class in 2016 but had collected significantly second places than successes) and Reynor, Zerg was by far the race with the least victories at "Premier" level; if we exclude the first BL Infestor era in 2012, Zerg as a race had never really been dominant in Sc2. Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. Except Zerg was already the most successful race by a significant amount of prize money even before Rogues 2017 run. Zerg has been at best balanced and at worst OP for 90% of SC2s lifespan. They have never spent any significant amount of time being underpowered aside from 2010 and the first half of 2011. The only reason Zerg hasn't dominated even harder is because soO is a Kong and Life got banned. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15707 Posts
On November 30 2021 14:54 JJH777 wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2021 08:51 Xain0n wrote: Before the rise(in chronological order) of Rogue, Serral, Dark(who was already world class in 2016 but had collected significantly second places than successes) and Reynor, Zerg was by far the race with the least victories at "Premier" level; if we exclude the first BL Infestor era in 2012, Zerg as a race had never really been dominant in Sc2. Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. Except Zerg was already the most successful race by a significant amount of prize money even before Rogues 2017 run. Zerg has been at best balanced and at worst OP for 90% of SC2s lifespan. They have never spent any significant amount of time being underpowered aside from 2010 and the first half of 2011. The only reason Zerg hasn't dominated even harder is because soO is a Kong and Life got banned. Oh there you go introducing measurable facts into an argument I thought was already lock solid measurable. How dare you? Even if there WERE tiny situations where Zerg was at a disadvantage, Blizzard didn't let that slip for long. The Blink meta vs Terran. Infestor Broodlord. The fact the queen needed to be nerfed 3 fucking times in the most recent balance patch..... NYDUS WORMS! HELLO! All point to a clear bias in how and when the game gets patched. Protoss has an OP build against Zerg? 2-3 months. Zerg has an obvious overpowered late game vs Protoss complete with a unit combination you already were FORCED to nerf 10 fucking years ago? We'll just let this ride out till the end of the year. The standards are completely lopsided. And the facts prove it, when you look at the data. I'm sick of trying to convince people of the bias. It's there in black and white if someone actually WANTS to find it. Zerg got VERY preferential treatment in terms of Balance Patches for a VERY long while. I watched a niche Terran build that Slayers team introduced get gutted in ONE WEEKEND because it embarassed the hell out of the foreign Zerg players at that tournament. I watched that happen. Zerg has been protected. FOR A LONG TIME. From the long arm of the balance nerf bat. I've seen it for a long time. It's about time that ended. | ||
Poopi
France12463 Posts
On November 30 2021 19:28 Vindicare605 wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2021 14:54 JJH777 wrote: On November 30 2021 08:51 Xain0n wrote: Before the rise(in chronological order) of Rogue, Serral, Dark(who was already world class in 2016 but had collected significantly second places than successes) and Reynor, Zerg was by far the race with the least victories at "Premier" level; if we exclude the first BL Infestor era in 2012, Zerg as a race had never really been dominant in Sc2. Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. Except Zerg was already the most successful race by a significant amount of prize money even before Rogues 2017 run. Zerg has been at best balanced and at worst OP for 90% of SC2s lifespan. They have never spent any significant amount of time being underpowered aside from 2010 and the first half of 2011. The only reason Zerg hasn't dominated even harder is because soO is a Kong and Life got banned. Oh there you go introducing measurable facts into an argument I thought was already lock solid measurable. How dare you? Even if there WERE tiny situations where Zerg was at a disadvantage, Blizzard didn't let that slip for long. The Blink meta vs Terran. Infestor Broodlord. The fact the queen needed to be nerfed 3 fucking times in the most recent balance patch..... NYDUS WORMS! HELLO! All point to a clear bias in how and when the game gets patched. Protoss has an OP build against Zerg? 2-3 months. Zerg has an obvious overpowered late game vs Protoss complete with a unit combination you already were FORCED to nerf 10 fucking years ago? We'll just let this ride out till the end of the year. The standards are completely lopsided. And the facts prove it, when you look at the data. I'm sick of trying to convince people of the bias. It's there in black and white if someone actually WANTS to find it. Zerg got VERY preferential treatment in terms of Balance Patches for a VERY long while. I watched a niche Terran build that Slayers team introduced get gutted in ONE WEEKENED because it embarassed the hell out of the foreign Zerg players at that tournament. I watched that happen. Zerg has been protected. FOR A LONG TIME. From the long arm of the balance nerf bat. I've seen it for a long time. It's about time that ended. What would be the reason though? We were a lot to think 2019 happened because blizzard wanted foreigners to succeed, did they think Serral and Reynor would be the most likely to profit of advantages because terran was too hard for foreigners? Or were foreign protoss players not as marketable? But indeed, I can accept that 2012 was a "mistake" and since HotS was in development, they could not focus too much in time on it. But LotV is the last extension so 2019 is not fortuitous. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12115 Posts
On November 30 2021 20:12 Poopi wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2021 19:28 Vindicare605 wrote: On November 30 2021 14:54 JJH777 wrote: On November 30 2021 08:51 Xain0n wrote: Before the rise(in chronological order) of Rogue, Serral, Dark(who was already world class in 2016 but had collected significantly second places than successes) and Reynor, Zerg was by far the race with the least victories at "Premier" level; if we exclude the first BL Infestor era in 2012, Zerg as a race had never really been dominant in Sc2. Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. Except Zerg was already the most successful race by a significant amount of prize money even before Rogues 2017 run. Zerg has been at best balanced and at worst OP for 90% of SC2s lifespan. They have never spent any significant amount of time being underpowered aside from 2010 and the first half of 2011. The only reason Zerg hasn't dominated even harder is because soO is a Kong and Life got banned. Oh there you go introducing measurable facts into an argument I thought was already lock solid measurable. How dare you? Even if there WERE tiny situations where Zerg was at a disadvantage, Blizzard didn't let that slip for long. The Blink meta vs Terran. Infestor Broodlord. The fact the queen needed to be nerfed 3 fucking times in the most recent balance patch..... NYDUS WORMS! HELLO! All point to a clear bias in how and when the game gets patched. Protoss has an OP build against Zerg? 2-3 months. Zerg has an obvious overpowered late game vs Protoss complete with a unit combination you already were FORCED to nerf 10 fucking years ago? We'll just let this ride out till the end of the year. The standards are completely lopsided. And the facts prove it, when you look at the data. I'm sick of trying to convince people of the bias. It's there in black and white if someone actually WANTS to find it. Zerg got VERY preferential treatment in terms of Balance Patches for a VERY long while. I watched a niche Terran build that Slayers team introduced get gutted in ONE WEEKENED because it embarassed the hell out of the foreign Zerg players at that tournament. I watched that happen. Zerg has been protected. FOR A LONG TIME. From the long arm of the balance nerf bat. I've seen it for a long time. It's about time that ended. What would be the reason though? We were a lot to think 2019 happened because blizzard wanted foreigners to succeed, did they think Serral and Reynor would be the most likely to profit of advantages because terran was too hard for foreigners? Or were foreign protoss players not as marketable? But indeed, I can accept that 2012 was a "mistake" and since HotS was in development, they could not focus too much in time on it. But LotV is the last extension so 2019 is not fortuitous. If you think it's about the foreigner conspiracy, long time the best foreigners were zergs and foreigners were mostly Protoss or Zergs, rarely Special I don't think they've done this on purpose though, well, I mean the foreigner purpose. I may be wrong though. | ||
royalroadweed
United States8298 Posts
On November 30 2021 19:28 Vindicare605 wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2021 14:54 JJH777 wrote: On November 30 2021 08:51 Xain0n wrote: Before the rise(in chronological order) of Rogue, Serral, Dark(who was already world class in 2016 but had collected significantly second places than successes) and Reynor, Zerg was by far the race with the least victories at "Premier" level; if we exclude the first BL Infestor era in 2012, Zerg as a race had never really been dominant in Sc2. Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. Except Zerg was already the most successful race by a significant amount of prize money even before Rogues 2017 run. Zerg has been at best balanced and at worst OP for 90% of SC2s lifespan. They have never spent any significant amount of time being underpowered aside from 2010 and the first half of 2011. The only reason Zerg hasn't dominated even harder is because soO is a Kong and Life got banned. Oh there you go introducing measurable facts into an argument I thought was already lock solid measurable. How dare you? Even if there WERE tiny situations where Zerg was at a disadvantage, Blizzard didn't let that slip for long. The Blink meta vs Terran. Infestor Broodlord. The fact the queen needed to be nerfed 3 fucking times in the most recent balance patch..... NYDUS WORMS! HELLO! All point to a clear bias in how and when the game gets patched. Protoss has an OP build against Zerg? 2-3 months. Zerg has an obvious overpowered late game vs Protoss complete with a unit combination you already were FORCED to nerf 10 fucking years ago? We'll just let this ride out till the end of the year. The standards are completely lopsided. And the facts prove it, when you look at the data. I'm sick of trying to convince people of the bias. It's there in black and white if someone actually WANTS to find it. Zerg got VERY preferential treatment in terms of Balance Patches for a VERY long while. I watched a niche Terran build that Slayers team introduced get gutted in ONE WEEKENED because it embarassed the hell out of the foreign Zerg players at that tournament. I watched that happen. Zerg has been protected. FOR A LONG TIME. From the long arm of the balance nerf bat. I've seen it for a long time. It's about time that ended. I don't think there's any nefarious reason why this is. Its just that with protoss and terran there's often an obvious and singular broken unit that's overpowered. Like warhounds or adepts. With zerg its less obvious because it often not how strong a unit is but how easily that unit enables zerg greed. For example, I don't think BL-Infestor was really the problem in '12. Nothing really changed with those units prior to 2012. It was the +2 queen range that broke the match up. Even the most recent BL-infestor era I think the main culprit (at least for TvZ) was the +5 baneling hp. Though I have to say that, notwithstanding the hellbat era, it does seem like terran is nerfed exceedingly swiftly based on singular players or teams without really any time for the meta to adjust. Blue Flame, Snipe, Ravens all seemed like they were nerfed like a week later. Reapers were nerfed because of a singular player (maybe 2 players since uthermal was able to replicate some of byun's success in europe). Then there's random nerfs like the WM splash decrease in hots that end up having to be reverted. | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
According to Liquipedia, Zerg's collective earnings in Sc2 are just above 13 millions of dollars compared to the 11 of protoss and 10.5 of Terran; tracking them back to 2017 we find out that, after Rogue's victory at BlizzCon, Zerg players have earned approximately 1.6 millions more than both Protoss and Terran in four years. So yes, Zerg were already ahead in earnings at the time but by a relatively small margin; take into consideration that foreigners had a significant role in this, being Zerg overwhelmingly the most successful race outside of Korea. As for tournament victories, at the moment Zerg and Terran share the same number of Premier trophies(98 to 98 but with Zerg having 118 second places to 68), a single trophy ahead of Protoss with 97. Going back to Rogue's BlizzCon, we find out that Zerg at the time had 28 Premier titles less than Protoss and 25 less than Terran so we can easily state that Zerg was BY FAR the least decorated race at the highest level. The idea of Blizzard favoring Zerg in order to agevolate the foreigners is simply ridicolous while complaining about Protoss being nerfed in 2019 when everyone and their mothers(on this forum as well) were crying about certain builds being oppressive, after a single Protoss infested Super Tournament, seems out of place. Blizzard heard the cries and nerfed Protoss, the race everyone loves to hate and the result was the second BL Infestor era... | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15614 Posts
On November 30 2021 20:52 Xain0n wrote: The idea of Blizzard favoring Zerg in order to agevolate the foreigners is simply ridicolous while complaining about Protoss being nerfed in 2019 when everyone and their mothers(on this forum as well) were crying about certain builds being oppressive, after a single Protoss infested Super Tournament, seems out of place. Blizzard heard the cries and nerfed Protoss, the race everyone loves to hate and the result was the second BL Infestor era... doesn't this point support the argument that Blizzard (at least in recent years) favored Zerg? People complained about Protoss after 1 tournament and they were instantly nerfed, then people complained about Broodlord/Infestor but it took almost a year until they nerfed it | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On November 30 2021 21:27 Charoisaur wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2021 20:52 Xain0n wrote: The idea of Blizzard favoring Zerg in order to agevolate the foreigners is simply ridicolous while complaining about Protoss being nerfed in 2019 when everyone and their mothers(on this forum as well) were crying about certain builds being oppressive, after a single Protoss infested Super Tournament, seems out of place. Blizzard heard the cries and nerfed Protoss, the race everyone loves to hate and the result was the second BL Infestor era... doesn't this point support the argument that Blizzard (at least in recent years) favored Zerg? People complained about Protoss after 1 tournament and they were instantly nerfed, then people complained about Broodlord/Infestor but it took almost a year until they nerfed it Zerg took advantage of the situation, I agree. However, I don't think there was a plan studied to favor Zerg, Blizzard clearly didn't anticipate what their changes to Protoss would have led to; the real point was that the various problems the company went through lead them to(wrongly) progressively abandon Sc2's support, they were slow to react to the issue their lack of foresight created. | ||
swarminfestor
Malaysia2298 Posts
On November 30 2021 21:27 Charoisaur wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2021 20:52 Xain0n wrote: The idea of Blizzard favoring Zerg in order to agevolate the foreigners is simply ridicolous while complaining about Protoss being nerfed in 2019 when everyone and their mothers(on this forum as well) were crying about certain builds being oppressive, after a single Protoss infested Super Tournament, seems out of place. Blizzard heard the cries and nerfed Protoss, the race everyone loves to hate and the result was the second BL Infestor era... doesn't this point support the argument that Blizzard (at least in recent years) favored Zerg? People complained about Protoss after 1 tournament and they were instantly nerfed, then people complained about Broodlord/Infestor but it took almost a year until they nerfed it I think they nerfed Infestors's Infested Terran and nydus meta after Rogue's GSL win and successive rate in GTC 2019? It took a couple of months similar to toss situation, right? | ||
Harris1st
Germany6114 Posts
What kind of map would be needed for Protoss? Long rush distance (no Queenwalk) but still kinda smallish map? | ||
RKC
2847 Posts
There's more market for Aliens than Predators in the movies. So if there's any racial bias, the slimey alien bugs always wins! | ||
Nebuchad
Switzerland11348 Posts
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JJH777
United States4276 Posts
On November 30 2021 20:52 Xain0n wrote: Numbers, you say? Here you have. According to Liquipedia, Zerg's collective earnings in Sc2 are just above 13 millions of dollars compared to the 11 of protoss and 10.5 of Terran; tracking them back to 2017 we find out that, after Rogue's victory at BlizzCon, Zerg players have earned approximately 1.6 millions more than both Protoss and Terran in four years. So yes, Zerg were already ahead in earnings at the time but by a relatively small margin; take into consideration that foreigners had a significant role in this, being Zerg overwhelmingly the most successful race outside of Korea. As for tournament victories, at the moment Zerg and Terran share the same number of Premier trophies(98 to 98 but with Zerg having 118 second places to 68), a single trophy ahead of Protoss with 97. Going back to Rogue's BlizzCon, we find out that Zerg at the time had 28 Premier titles less than Protoss and 25 less than Terran so we can easily state that Zerg was BY FAR the least decorated race at the highest level. The idea of Blizzard favoring Zerg in order to agevolate the foreigners is simply ridicolous while complaining about Protoss being nerfed in 2019 when everyone and their mothers(on this forum as well) were crying about certain builds being oppressive, after a single Protoss infested Super Tournament, seems out of place. Blizzard heard the cries and nerfed Protoss, the race everyone loves to hate and the result was the second BL Infestor era... Where do you get that they've earned 1.6 million more from 2018 to now? They made 1.1 million more in 2018 and 2019 combined. When taken together 2020 and 2021 are basically a wash. Zerg was already well over a million ahead of Terran on 1.1.2018 and was nearly a million ahead of Toss. I agree that foreigners having more opportunities to earn money has made Zerg overperform slightly in prize money. Though I'm surprised to see you admit that and could swear you've argued the opposite when Serral's been criticized. Either way that doesn't account for a million dollars though. I'm not going to do all that math and digging at the moment but I'd be shocked if even only counting Korean earnings Zerg wasn't still first place. | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On December 01 2021 00:46 JJH777 wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2021 20:52 Xain0n wrote: Numbers, you say? Here you have. According to Liquipedia, Zerg's collective earnings in Sc2 are just above 13 millions of dollars compared to the 11 of protoss and 10.5 of Terran; tracking them back to 2017 we find out that, after Rogue's victory at BlizzCon, Zerg players have earned approximately 1.6 millions more than both Protoss and Terran in four years. So yes, Zerg were already ahead in earnings at the time but by a relatively small margin; take into consideration that foreigners had a significant role in this, being Zerg overwhelmingly the most successful race outside of Korea. As for tournament victories, at the moment Zerg and Terran share the same number of Premier trophies(98 to 98 but with Zerg having 118 second places to 68), a single trophy ahead of Protoss with 97. Going back to Rogue's BlizzCon, we find out that Zerg at the time had 28 Premier titles less than Protoss and 25 less than Terran so we can easily state that Zerg was BY FAR the least decorated race at the highest level. The idea of Blizzard favoring Zerg in order to agevolate the foreigners is simply ridicolous while complaining about Protoss being nerfed in 2019 when everyone and their mothers(on this forum as well) were crying about certain builds being oppressive, after a single Protoss infested Super Tournament, seems out of place. Blizzard heard the cries and nerfed Protoss, the race everyone loves to hate and the result was the second BL Infestor era... Where do you get that they've earned 1.6 million more from 2018 to now? They made 1.1 million more in 2018 and 2019 combined. When taken together 2020 and 2021 are basically a wash. Zerg was already well over a million ahead of Terran on 1.1.2018 and was nearly a million ahead of Toss. I agree that foreigners having more opportunities to earn money has made Zerg overperform slightly in prize money. Though I'm surprised to see you admit that and could swear you've argued the opposite when Serral's been criticized. Either way that doesn't account for a million dollars though. I'm not going to do all that math and digging at the moment but I'd be shocked if even only counting Korean earnings Zerg wasn't still first place. I am counting late 2017 as well, BlizzCon alone with Rogue and soO in the finals was a significant swing. Outside of Korea, Zerg players always were the most successful(with some notable Protoss exceptions), regardless of balance and regardless of how competitive foreigners were/would have been when compared to koreans. Serral is and was much stronger than any non korean before him, he would have needed no permission in order to grab his titles. In mid 2017, considering only Korea, I think that Zerg wouln't be ahead in earnings; even if, it would be a slight advantage due to body of work and placements, since they were for sure behind in victories. | ||
allmotor1
122 Posts
On November 30 2021 02:12 Vindicare605 wrote: Missed on Dark and Trap. Trap has definitely fallen from his streak of being the most elite Protoss in the world. Dark vs Rogue is always a toss up. Either way. Not doing good on my bets this season at all. Probably going to be another Maru vs Rogue final. As much as I love all these tournaments seemingly every week, the conundrum is we're at a point where its basically the usual suspects who win these tournaments. In any given tournament it's just bet on Maru/Rogue/Serral/Dark/Trap very high chance one of those guys wins it all. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15707 Posts
On November 30 2021 20:21 deacon.frost wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2021 20:12 Poopi wrote: On November 30 2021 19:28 Vindicare605 wrote: On November 30 2021 14:54 JJH777 wrote: On November 30 2021 08:51 Xain0n wrote: Before the rise(in chronological order) of Rogue, Serral, Dark(who was already world class in 2016 but had collected significantly second places than successes) and Reynor, Zerg was by far the race with the least victories at "Premier" level; if we exclude the first BL Infestor era in 2012, Zerg as a race had never really been dominant in Sc2. Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. Except Zerg was already the most successful race by a significant amount of prize money even before Rogues 2017 run. Zerg has been at best balanced and at worst OP for 90% of SC2s lifespan. They have never spent any significant amount of time being underpowered aside from 2010 and the first half of 2011. The only reason Zerg hasn't dominated even harder is because soO is a Kong and Life got banned. Oh there you go introducing measurable facts into an argument I thought was already lock solid measurable. How dare you? Even if there WERE tiny situations where Zerg was at a disadvantage, Blizzard didn't let that slip for long. The Blink meta vs Terran. Infestor Broodlord. The fact the queen needed to be nerfed 3 fucking times in the most recent balance patch..... NYDUS WORMS! HELLO! All point to a clear bias in how and when the game gets patched. Protoss has an OP build against Zerg? 2-3 months. Zerg has an obvious overpowered late game vs Protoss complete with a unit combination you already were FORCED to nerf 10 fucking years ago? We'll just let this ride out till the end of the year. The standards are completely lopsided. And the facts prove it, when you look at the data. I'm sick of trying to convince people of the bias. It's there in black and white if someone actually WANTS to find it. Zerg got VERY preferential treatment in terms of Balance Patches for a VERY long while. I watched a niche Terran build that Slayers team introduced get gutted in ONE WEEKENED because it embarassed the hell out of the foreign Zerg players at that tournament. I watched that happen. Zerg has been protected. FOR A LONG TIME. From the long arm of the balance nerf bat. I've seen it for a long time. It's about time that ended. What would be the reason though? We were a lot to think 2019 happened because blizzard wanted foreigners to succeed, did they think Serral and Reynor would be the most likely to profit of advantages because terran was too hard for foreigners? Or were foreign protoss players not as marketable? But indeed, I can accept that 2012 was a "mistake" and since HotS was in development, they could not focus too much in time on it. But LotV is the last extension so 2019 is not fortuitous. If you think it's about the foreigner conspiracy, long time the best foreigners were zergs and foreigners were mostly Protoss or Zergs, rarely Special I don't think they've done this on purpose though, well, I mean the foreigner purpose. I may be wrong though. Oh please, they might not do it anymore (because Blizzard doesn't even promote the game anymore) but they DEFINITELY were doing it in 2012. Scarlett and Stephano are beating Koreans! That's all anyone cared about, that was all the narrative was about. It didn't matter HOW they were doing it, just that they were doing it and that the gap was closing. That's all Blizzard would promote and that's all the casters would ever talk about. Nevermind how you have horrific ZvZ finals in GSL with fucking Sniper of all people winning Code S or IPL finals where you have Brood Lord vs Brood Lord fights. Does anyone else remember that shit?! There's a reason we have a nickname for "Patch Zergs" and not for any other race. That shit used to be BLATANT. There's a reason I'm still pissed about it. Blizzard marketed their own game during the era that is widely considered to be the most broken on the backs of promoting foreigners defeating Koreans. I was there, I saw it. We all saw it. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15707 Posts
On November 30 2021 20:37 royalroadweed wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2021 19:28 Vindicare605 wrote: On November 30 2021 14:54 JJH777 wrote: On November 30 2021 08:51 Xain0n wrote: Before the rise(in chronological order) of Rogue, Serral, Dark(who was already world class in 2016 but had collected significantly second places than successes) and Reynor, Zerg was by far the race with the least victories at "Premier" level; if we exclude the first BL Infestor era in 2012, Zerg as a race had never really been dominant in Sc2. Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. Except Zerg was already the most successful race by a significant amount of prize money even before Rogues 2017 run. Zerg has been at best balanced and at worst OP for 90% of SC2s lifespan. They have never spent any significant amount of time being underpowered aside from 2010 and the first half of 2011. The only reason Zerg hasn't dominated even harder is because soO is a Kong and Life got banned. Oh there you go introducing measurable facts into an argument I thought was already lock solid measurable. How dare you? Even if there WERE tiny situations where Zerg was at a disadvantage, Blizzard didn't let that slip for long. The Blink meta vs Terran. Infestor Broodlord. The fact the queen needed to be nerfed 3 fucking times in the most recent balance patch..... NYDUS WORMS! HELLO! All point to a clear bias in how and when the game gets patched. Protoss has an OP build against Zerg? 2-3 months. Zerg has an obvious overpowered late game vs Protoss complete with a unit combination you already were FORCED to nerf 10 fucking years ago? We'll just let this ride out till the end of the year. The standards are completely lopsided. And the facts prove it, when you look at the data. I'm sick of trying to convince people of the bias. It's there in black and white if someone actually WANTS to find it. Zerg got VERY preferential treatment in terms of Balance Patches for a VERY long while. I watched a niche Terran build that Slayers team introduced get gutted in ONE WEEKENED because it embarassed the hell out of the foreign Zerg players at that tournament. I watched that happen. Zerg has been protected. FOR A LONG TIME. From the long arm of the balance nerf bat. I've seen it for a long time. It's about time that ended. I don't think there's any nefarious reason why this is. Its just that with protoss and terran there's often an obvious and singular broken unit that's overpowered. Like warhounds or adepts. With zerg its less obvious because it often not how strong a unit is but how easily that unit enables zerg greed. For example, I don't think BL-Infestor was really the problem in '12. Nothing really changed with those units prior to 2012. It was the +2 queen range that broke the match up. Even the most recent BL-infestor era I think the main culprit (at least for TvZ) was the +5 baneling hp. Though I have to say that, notwithstanding the hellbat era, it does seem like terran is nerfed exceedingly swiftly based on singular players or teams without really any time for the meta to adjust. Blue Flame, Snipe, Ravens all seemed like they were nerfed like a week later. Reapers were nerfed because of a singular player (maybe 2 players since uthermal was able to replicate some of byun's success in europe). Then there's random nerfs like the WM splash decrease in hots that end up having to be reverted. No the primary reason for the 2019 Broodlord Infestor Meta was the fact they reintroduced upgrades applying to Infested Terrans. That and the map pool enabling Zerg greed because we can't forget that the maps are a big part of the story here. But 2019 is special in my head for another reason. We saw how broken Nydus Worms were at IEM Katowice when they DEVASTATED pretty much every PvZ match throughout the entire tournament. That was in February and March of 2019. They weren't nerfed until JANUARY of 2020. Blizzard saw how busted the Nydus was, how they were being used and they let that shit sit and fester for 3/4 of an entire year. They could have EASILY tweaked the numbers on that a LOT sooner. But nope. They just let it sit. Think how fast Warp Prisms got nerfed when the remastered Immortal Sentry all in was being a menace in 2018? Look how fast that was. They let Nydus Worms sit for 9 fucking months. The Broodlord Infestor meta was only a thing during the latter half of that year. Nydus Worms they knew about in fucking FEBRUARY! Ugh. 2019 pisses me off even more than 2012 does in a lot of ways. You would have thought they would have learned their lessons from 2012 and they didn't have the excuse of "we're working on HoTS" this time. Absolutely no reason that should have been as bad as it was for as long as it was. | ||
Poopi
France12463 Posts
On December 01 2021 05:41 Vindicare605 wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2021 20:21 deacon.frost wrote: On November 30 2021 20:12 Poopi wrote: On November 30 2021 19:28 Vindicare605 wrote: On November 30 2021 14:54 JJH777 wrote: On November 30 2021 08:51 Xain0n wrote: Before the rise(in chronological order) of Rogue, Serral, Dark(who was already world class in 2016 but had collected significantly second places than successes) and Reynor, Zerg was by far the race with the least victories at "Premier" level; if we exclude the first BL Infestor era in 2012, Zerg as a race had never really been dominant in Sc2. Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. Except Zerg was already the most successful race by a significant amount of prize money even before Rogues 2017 run. Zerg has been at best balanced and at worst OP for 90% of SC2s lifespan. They have never spent any significant amount of time being underpowered aside from 2010 and the first half of 2011. The only reason Zerg hasn't dominated even harder is because soO is a Kong and Life got banned. Oh there you go introducing measurable facts into an argument I thought was already lock solid measurable. How dare you? Even if there WERE tiny situations where Zerg was at a disadvantage, Blizzard didn't let that slip for long. The Blink meta vs Terran. Infestor Broodlord. The fact the queen needed to be nerfed 3 fucking times in the most recent balance patch..... NYDUS WORMS! HELLO! All point to a clear bias in how and when the game gets patched. Protoss has an OP build against Zerg? 2-3 months. Zerg has an obvious overpowered late game vs Protoss complete with a unit combination you already were FORCED to nerf 10 fucking years ago? We'll just let this ride out till the end of the year. The standards are completely lopsided. And the facts prove it, when you look at the data. I'm sick of trying to convince people of the bias. It's there in black and white if someone actually WANTS to find it. Zerg got VERY preferential treatment in terms of Balance Patches for a VERY long while. I watched a niche Terran build that Slayers team introduced get gutted in ONE WEEKENED because it embarassed the hell out of the foreign Zerg players at that tournament. I watched that happen. Zerg has been protected. FOR A LONG TIME. From the long arm of the balance nerf bat. I've seen it for a long time. It's about time that ended. What would be the reason though? We were a lot to think 2019 happened because blizzard wanted foreigners to succeed, did they think Serral and Reynor would be the most likely to profit of advantages because terran was too hard for foreigners? Or were foreign protoss players not as marketable? But indeed, I can accept that 2012 was a "mistake" and since HotS was in development, they could not focus too much in time on it. But LotV is the last extension so 2019 is not fortuitous. If you think it's about the foreigner conspiracy, long time the best foreigners were zergs and foreigners were mostly Protoss or Zergs, rarely Special I don't think they've done this on purpose though, well, I mean the foreigner purpose. I may be wrong though. Oh please, they might not do it anymore (because Blizzard doesn't even promote the game anymore) but they DEFINITELY were doing it in 2012. Scarlett and Stephano are beating Koreans! That's all anyone cared about, that was all the narrative was about. It didn't matter HOW they were doing it, just that they were doing it and that the gap was closing. That's all Blizzard would promote and that's all the casters would ever talk about. Nevermind how you have horrific ZvZ finals in GSL with fucking Sniper of all people winning Code S or IPL finals where you have Brood Lord vs Brood Lord fights. Does anyone else remember that shit?! There's a reason we have a nickname for "Patch Zergs" and not for any other race. That shit used to be BLATANT. There's a reason I'm still pissed about it. Blizzard marketed their own game during the era that is widely considered to be the most broken on the backs of promoting foreigners defeating Koreans. I was there, I saw it. We all saw it. Stephano was no patch zerg though. He took advantage of the race ultimately (you don't really have a choice) but he won tournaments before BL/Infestor and shaped the meta so much in every match-up (except maybe ZvZ?). I agree that 2019 felt worse from Blizzard than 2012 though, it was even more blatant and should not have been a thing after 2012 already happened. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15707 Posts
On December 01 2021 07:16 Poopi wrote: Show nested quote + On December 01 2021 05:41 Vindicare605 wrote: On November 30 2021 20:21 deacon.frost wrote: On November 30 2021 20:12 Poopi wrote: On November 30 2021 19:28 Vindicare605 wrote: On November 30 2021 14:54 JJH777 wrote: On November 30 2021 08:51 Xain0n wrote: Before the rise(in chronological order) of Rogue, Serral, Dark(who was already world class in 2016 but had collected significantly second places than successes) and Reynor, Zerg was by far the race with the least victories at "Premier" level; if we exclude the first BL Infestor era in 2012, Zerg as a race had never really been dominant in Sc2. Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. Except Zerg was already the most successful race by a significant amount of prize money even before Rogues 2017 run. Zerg has been at best balanced and at worst OP for 90% of SC2s lifespan. They have never spent any significant amount of time being underpowered aside from 2010 and the first half of 2011. The only reason Zerg hasn't dominated even harder is because soO is a Kong and Life got banned. Oh there you go introducing measurable facts into an argument I thought was already lock solid measurable. How dare you? Even if there WERE tiny situations where Zerg was at a disadvantage, Blizzard didn't let that slip for long. The Blink meta vs Terran. Infestor Broodlord. The fact the queen needed to be nerfed 3 fucking times in the most recent balance patch..... NYDUS WORMS! HELLO! All point to a clear bias in how and when the game gets patched. Protoss has an OP build against Zerg? 2-3 months. Zerg has an obvious overpowered late game vs Protoss complete with a unit combination you already were FORCED to nerf 10 fucking years ago? We'll just let this ride out till the end of the year. The standards are completely lopsided. And the facts prove it, when you look at the data. I'm sick of trying to convince people of the bias. It's there in black and white if someone actually WANTS to find it. Zerg got VERY preferential treatment in terms of Balance Patches for a VERY long while. I watched a niche Terran build that Slayers team introduced get gutted in ONE WEEKENED because it embarassed the hell out of the foreign Zerg players at that tournament. I watched that happen. Zerg has been protected. FOR A LONG TIME. From the long arm of the balance nerf bat. I've seen it for a long time. It's about time that ended. What would be the reason though? We were a lot to think 2019 happened because blizzard wanted foreigners to succeed, did they think Serral and Reynor would be the most likely to profit of advantages because terran was too hard for foreigners? Or were foreign protoss players not as marketable? But indeed, I can accept that 2012 was a "mistake" and since HotS was in development, they could not focus too much in time on it. But LotV is the last extension so 2019 is not fortuitous. If you think it's about the foreigner conspiracy, long time the best foreigners were zergs and foreigners were mostly Protoss or Zergs, rarely Special I don't think they've done this on purpose though, well, I mean the foreigner purpose. I may be wrong though. Oh please, they might not do it anymore (because Blizzard doesn't even promote the game anymore) but they DEFINITELY were doing it in 2012. Scarlett and Stephano are beating Koreans! That's all anyone cared about, that was all the narrative was about. It didn't matter HOW they were doing it, just that they were doing it and that the gap was closing. That's all Blizzard would promote and that's all the casters would ever talk about. Nevermind how you have horrific ZvZ finals in GSL with fucking Sniper of all people winning Code S or IPL finals where you have Brood Lord vs Brood Lord fights. Does anyone else remember that shit?! There's a reason we have a nickname for "Patch Zergs" and not for any other race. That shit used to be BLATANT. There's a reason I'm still pissed about it. Blizzard marketed their own game during the era that is widely considered to be the most broken on the backs of promoting foreigners defeating Koreans. I was there, I saw it. We all saw it. Stephano was no patch zerg though. He took advantage of the race ultimately (you don't really have a choice) but he won tournaments before BL/Infestor and shaped the meta so much in every match-up (except maybe ZvZ?). I agree that 2019 felt worse from Blizzard than 2012 though, it was even more blatant and should not have been a thing after 2012 already happened. I know. I often throw Stephano into the mix because of the narrative but he definitely deserved to not be called a Patch Zerg. I absolutely loved how celebrated he was back then, when he was first winning (although the Roach Max was pretty brutal for a while until the map pool evolved) but then when Broodlord Infestor came along it made everything feel cheap after a while which was another reason I fucking hated it. When Stephano first started winning it was a huge accomplishment. When every Zerg started winning because the game was busted it was just because the game was busted it didn't matter anymore to me whether or not the gap was closing because there was a much bigger problem to fix before I would care. What kills me about 2012 ultimately is that WoL was at the peak of its popularity and watching Broodlord Infestor turned off a LOT of people when the game SHOULD have kept growing from that point. That was 6-9 months of the most boring Starcraft you could ever play or watch and that was when the game was at the peak of its popularity and Blizzard just shrugged it off and said "HoTS will fix it." Yea too bad the tournaments are still paying out big bucks and all of that money is just going to whichever player has the best ZvZ or which Protoss can land the luckiest Archon toilet (which was also a thing back then.) At least by 2019 the game wasn't growing anymore and the narrative was a little different. Everyone was pissed at the end of 2019 and no one was trying to make excuses for it at that point. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8759 Posts
On December 01 2021 05:41 Vindicare605 wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2021 20:21 deacon.frost wrote: On November 30 2021 20:12 Poopi wrote: On November 30 2021 19:28 Vindicare605 wrote: On November 30 2021 14:54 JJH777 wrote: On November 30 2021 08:51 Xain0n wrote: Before the rise(in chronological order) of Rogue, Serral, Dark(who was already world class in 2016 but had collected significantly second places than successes) and Reynor, Zerg was by far the race with the least victories at "Premier" level; if we exclude the first BL Infestor era in 2012, Zerg as a race had never really been dominant in Sc2. Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. Except Zerg was already the most successful race by a significant amount of prize money even before Rogues 2017 run. Zerg has been at best balanced and at worst OP for 90% of SC2s lifespan. They have never spent any significant amount of time being underpowered aside from 2010 and the first half of 2011. The only reason Zerg hasn't dominated even harder is because soO is a Kong and Life got banned. Oh there you go introducing measurable facts into an argument I thought was already lock solid measurable. How dare you? Even if there WERE tiny situations where Zerg was at a disadvantage, Blizzard didn't let that slip for long. The Blink meta vs Terran. Infestor Broodlord. The fact the queen needed to be nerfed 3 fucking times in the most recent balance patch..... NYDUS WORMS! HELLO! All point to a clear bias in how and when the game gets patched. Protoss has an OP build against Zerg? 2-3 months. Zerg has an obvious overpowered late game vs Protoss complete with a unit combination you already were FORCED to nerf 10 fucking years ago? We'll just let this ride out till the end of the year. The standards are completely lopsided. And the facts prove it, when you look at the data. I'm sick of trying to convince people of the bias. It's there in black and white if someone actually WANTS to find it. Zerg got VERY preferential treatment in terms of Balance Patches for a VERY long while. I watched a niche Terran build that Slayers team introduced get gutted in ONE WEEKENED because it embarassed the hell out of the foreign Zerg players at that tournament. I watched that happen. Zerg has been protected. FOR A LONG TIME. From the long arm of the balance nerf bat. I've seen it for a long time. It's about time that ended. What would be the reason though? We were a lot to think 2019 happened because blizzard wanted foreigners to succeed, did they think Serral and Reynor would be the most likely to profit of advantages because terran was too hard for foreigners? Or were foreign protoss players not as marketable? But indeed, I can accept that 2012 was a "mistake" and since HotS was in development, they could not focus too much in time on it. But LotV is the last extension so 2019 is not fortuitous. If you think it's about the foreigner conspiracy, long time the best foreigners were zergs and foreigners were mostly Protoss or Zergs, rarely Special I don't think they've done this on purpose though, well, I mean the foreigner purpose. I may be wrong though. Oh please, they might not do it anymore (because Blizzard doesn't even promote the game anymore) but they DEFINITELY were doing it in 2012. Scarlett and Stephano are beating Koreans! That's all anyone cared about, that was all the narrative was about. It didn't matter HOW they were doing it, just that they were doing it and that the gap was closing. That's all Blizzard would promote and that's all the casters would ever talk about. Nevermind how you have horrific ZvZ finals in GSL with fucking Sniper of all people winning Code S or IPL finals where you have Brood Lord vs Brood Lord fights. Does anyone else remember that shit?! There's a reason we have a nickname for "Patch Zergs" and not for any other race. That shit used to be BLATANT. There's a reason I'm still pissed about it. Blizzard marketed their own game during the era that is widely considered to be the most broken on the backs of promoting foreigners defeating Koreans. I was there, I saw it. We all saw it. 2011 (or 2010 for that matter) was a much better year than 2012 for foreigners and there's pretty much zero reason before BL infestor to think that foreigners would do better if zerg was better. Thorzain had just won DH Stockolm and Huk, Naniwa and Mana were all in the conversation for best foreigner. Stephano and Scarlett became champion because of the WCS format that was region locked if the balance was different it would maybe have been other people but foreigners all the same. Stephano did ok vs Korean (no better than in 2011, arguably worst than Nani or Huk in 2011) and Scarlett did pretty much jack shit against them saved for one Iron Squid run. No other patch zerg won vs korean with any kind of regularity. Even if it was all a conspiracy (wich I don't beleive for a second) it would have been a pretty stupid and innefectual one. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15707 Posts
On December 01 2021 08:18 Nakajin wrote: Show nested quote + On December 01 2021 05:41 Vindicare605 wrote: On November 30 2021 20:21 deacon.frost wrote: On November 30 2021 20:12 Poopi wrote: On November 30 2021 19:28 Vindicare605 wrote: On November 30 2021 14:54 JJH777 wrote: On November 30 2021 08:51 Xain0n wrote: Before the rise(in chronological order) of Rogue, Serral, Dark(who was already world class in 2016 but had collected significantly second places than successes) and Reynor, Zerg was by far the race with the least victories at "Premier" level; if we exclude the first BL Infestor era in 2012, Zerg as a race had never really been dominant in Sc2. Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. Except Zerg was already the most successful race by a significant amount of prize money even before Rogues 2017 run. Zerg has been at best balanced and at worst OP for 90% of SC2s lifespan. They have never spent any significant amount of time being underpowered aside from 2010 and the first half of 2011. The only reason Zerg hasn't dominated even harder is because soO is a Kong and Life got banned. Oh there you go introducing measurable facts into an argument I thought was already lock solid measurable. How dare you? Even if there WERE tiny situations where Zerg was at a disadvantage, Blizzard didn't let that slip for long. The Blink meta vs Terran. Infestor Broodlord. The fact the queen needed to be nerfed 3 fucking times in the most recent balance patch..... NYDUS WORMS! HELLO! All point to a clear bias in how and when the game gets patched. Protoss has an OP build against Zerg? 2-3 months. Zerg has an obvious overpowered late game vs Protoss complete with a unit combination you already were FORCED to nerf 10 fucking years ago? We'll just let this ride out till the end of the year. The standards are completely lopsided. And the facts prove it, when you look at the data. I'm sick of trying to convince people of the bias. It's there in black and white if someone actually WANTS to find it. Zerg got VERY preferential treatment in terms of Balance Patches for a VERY long while. I watched a niche Terran build that Slayers team introduced get gutted in ONE WEEKENED because it embarassed the hell out of the foreign Zerg players at that tournament. I watched that happen. Zerg has been protected. FOR A LONG TIME. From the long arm of the balance nerf bat. I've seen it for a long time. It's about time that ended. What would be the reason though? We were a lot to think 2019 happened because blizzard wanted foreigners to succeed, did they think Serral and Reynor would be the most likely to profit of advantages because terran was too hard for foreigners? Or were foreign protoss players not as marketable? But indeed, I can accept that 2012 was a "mistake" and since HotS was in development, they could not focus too much in time on it. But LotV is the last extension so 2019 is not fortuitous. If you think it's about the foreigner conspiracy, long time the best foreigners were zergs and foreigners were mostly Protoss or Zergs, rarely Special I don't think they've done this on purpose though, well, I mean the foreigner purpose. I may be wrong though. Oh please, they might not do it anymore (because Blizzard doesn't even promote the game anymore) but they DEFINITELY were doing it in 2012. Scarlett and Stephano are beating Koreans! That's all anyone cared about, that was all the narrative was about. It didn't matter HOW they were doing it, just that they were doing it and that the gap was closing. That's all Blizzard would promote and that's all the casters would ever talk about. Nevermind how you have horrific ZvZ finals in GSL with fucking Sniper of all people winning Code S or IPL finals where you have Brood Lord vs Brood Lord fights. Does anyone else remember that shit?! There's a reason we have a nickname for "Patch Zergs" and not for any other race. That shit used to be BLATANT. There's a reason I'm still pissed about it. Blizzard marketed their own game during the era that is widely considered to be the most broken on the backs of promoting foreigners defeating Koreans. I was there, I saw it. We all saw it. 2011 (or 2010 for that matter) was a much better year than 2012 for foreigners and there's pretty much zero reason before BL infestor to think that foreigners would do better if zerg was better. Thorzain had just won DH Stockolm and Huk, Naniwa and Mana were all in the conversation for best foreigner. Stephano and Scarlett became champion because of the WCS format that was region locked if the balance was different it would maybe have been other people but foreigners all the same. Stephano did ok vs Korean (no better than in 2011, arguably worst than Nani or Huk in 2011) and Scarlett did pretty much jack shit against them. No other patch zerg won vs korean with any kind of regularity. Even if it was all a conspiracy (wich I don't beleive for a second) it would have been a pretty stupid and innefectual one. 2010 and 2011 had more foreigner success because GSL players weren't traveling to foreign events yet. Every time one of the powerhouses of the GSL made an appearance in those tournaments they'd win. Stephano was the first player to show he could actually kick it with the best the GSL had to offer. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8759 Posts
On December 01 2021 08:26 Vindicare605 wrote: Show nested quote + On December 01 2021 08:18 Nakajin wrote: On December 01 2021 05:41 Vindicare605 wrote: On November 30 2021 20:21 deacon.frost wrote: On November 30 2021 20:12 Poopi wrote: On November 30 2021 19:28 Vindicare605 wrote: On November 30 2021 14:54 JJH777 wrote: On November 30 2021 08:51 Xain0n wrote: Before the rise(in chronological order) of Rogue, Serral, Dark(who was already world class in 2016 but had collected significantly second places than successes) and Reynor, Zerg was by far the race with the least victories at "Premier" level; if we exclude the first BL Infestor era in 2012, Zerg as a race had never really been dominant in Sc2. Zerg really needed an influx of new top tier players capable of actually winning championships; the real problem was the second BL Infestor era in 2019 which, coupled with very unwise nerfs to Protoss, lead to months of nauseating domination. Zerg have also enjoyed favourable map pools in these last years of LoTV, with some notable exceptions in 2020. Except Zerg was already the most successful race by a significant amount of prize money even before Rogues 2017 run. Zerg has been at best balanced and at worst OP for 90% of SC2s lifespan. They have never spent any significant amount of time being underpowered aside from 2010 and the first half of 2011. The only reason Zerg hasn't dominated even harder is because soO is a Kong and Life got banned. Oh there you go introducing measurable facts into an argument I thought was already lock solid measurable. How dare you? Even if there WERE tiny situations where Zerg was at a disadvantage, Blizzard didn't let that slip for long. The Blink meta vs Terran. Infestor Broodlord. The fact the queen needed to be nerfed 3 fucking times in the most recent balance patch..... NYDUS WORMS! HELLO! All point to a clear bias in how and when the game gets patched. Protoss has an OP build against Zerg? 2-3 months. Zerg has an obvious overpowered late game vs Protoss complete with a unit combination you already were FORCED to nerf 10 fucking years ago? We'll just let this ride out till the end of the year. The standards are completely lopsided. And the facts prove it, when you look at the data. I'm sick of trying to convince people of the bias. It's there in black and white if someone actually WANTS to find it. Zerg got VERY preferential treatment in terms of Balance Patches for a VERY long while. I watched a niche Terran build that Slayers team introduced get gutted in ONE WEEKENED because it embarassed the hell out of the foreign Zerg players at that tournament. I watched that happen. Zerg has been protected. FOR A LONG TIME. From the long arm of the balance nerf bat. I've seen it for a long time. It's about time that ended. What would be the reason though? We were a lot to think 2019 happened because blizzard wanted foreigners to succeed, did they think Serral and Reynor would be the most likely to profit of advantages because terran was too hard for foreigners? Or were foreign protoss players not as marketable? But indeed, I can accept that 2012 was a "mistake" and since HotS was in development, they could not focus too much in time on it. But LotV is the last extension so 2019 is not fortuitous. If you think it's about the foreigner conspiracy, long time the best foreigners were zergs and foreigners were mostly Protoss or Zergs, rarely Special I don't think they've done this on purpose though, well, I mean the foreigner purpose. I may be wrong though. Oh please, they might not do it anymore (because Blizzard doesn't even promote the game anymore) but they DEFINITELY were doing it in 2012. Scarlett and Stephano are beating Koreans! That's all anyone cared about, that was all the narrative was about. It didn't matter HOW they were doing it, just that they were doing it and that the gap was closing. That's all Blizzard would promote and that's all the casters would ever talk about. Nevermind how you have horrific ZvZ finals in GSL with fucking Sniper of all people winning Code S or IPL finals where you have Brood Lord vs Brood Lord fights. Does anyone else remember that shit?! There's a reason we have a nickname for "Patch Zergs" and not for any other race. That shit used to be BLATANT. There's a reason I'm still pissed about it. Blizzard marketed their own game during the era that is widely considered to be the most broken on the backs of promoting foreigners defeating Koreans. I was there, I saw it. We all saw it. 2011 (or 2010 for that matter) was a much better year than 2012 for foreigners and there's pretty much zero reason before BL infestor to think that foreigners would do better if zerg was better. Thorzain had just won DH Stockolm and Huk, Naniwa and Mana were all in the conversation for best foreigner. Stephano and Scarlett became champion because of the WCS format that was region locked if the balance was different it would maybe have been other people but foreigners all the same. Stephano did ok vs Korean (no better than in 2011, arguably worst than Nani or Huk in 2011) and Scarlett did pretty much jack shit against them. No other patch zerg won vs korean with any kind of regularity. Even if it was all a conspiracy (wich I don't beleive for a second) it would have been a pretty stupid and innefectual one. 2010 and 2011 had more foreigner success because GSL players weren't traveling to foreign events yet. Every time one of the powerhouses of the GSL made an appearance in those tournaments they'd win. Stephano was the first player to show he could actually kick it with the best the GSL had to offer. Ya off course but certainly that didn't change one bit in 2012, foreigner were getting their asses handed to them during the BL infestor days, that's not saying thay they a few patch zerg didn't score a couple zvp win vs Koreans they wouldn't have otherwise, but as a whole foreigners were as far as ever from winning tournaments at that point. (Partly because the competition became harder like you said) No one patched the game in the hope that Lowely could get a top 16 results instead of a top 32. If Blizz had kept BL infestor to help foreigners it would imply that foreigners were doing at least decently good, or at least better than if one or the other two race was better, which there's just no reason to think. Casters overhype foreigners cause that's what they do, they hyped Scarlett when the ling-muta-bane became super good for zerg, they hyped Snute when Searmhost were a thing, they hyped Lilbow when Protoss was dominant, they hype UT and Kelazhue when it was reaper time, ect... (Incidently, I would still argue that foreigners did better in 2011 compared to Korean all thing being equal, but that's nether here nor there) | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
obscure mid tier pros capable of winning big titles and gifted topX placements to players who were unknown before and would accolplish nothing afterwards; this happened in Korea as well as outside of it. Stephano was winning the year before BL Infestors were a thing and in 2011 Code S players had alredy started to travel overseas; if anything, KeSpa players hadn't made the switch yet. At Katowice 2019 Nydus was already a very strong strat but Protoss were capable of dealing with it well. Stats went to the finals by beating Dark and he lost because he choked hard. The second BL Infestor era followed the nerfs to Protoss' early game tools and it made the strongest Zerg players almost unbeatable but didn't change unkown players into top tier ones; it was still oppressive and Blizzard should have reacted after a couple of tournaments instead of waiting for BlizzCon to come. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15707 Posts
On December 01 2021 09:35 Xain0n wrote: The first BL Infestor era was, in a way, worse since it made obscure mid tier pros capable of winning big titles and gifted topX placements to players who were unknown before and would accolplish nothing afterwards; this happened in Korea as well as outside of it. Stephano was winning the year before BL Infestors were a thing and in 2011 Code S players had alredy started to travel overseas; if anything, KeSpa players hadn't made the switch yet. At Katowice 2019 Nydus was already a very strong strat but Protoss were capable of dealing with it well. Stats went to the finals by beating Dark and he lost because he choked hard. The second BL Infestor era followed the nerfs to Protoss' early game tools and it made the strongest Zerg players almost unbeatable but didn't change unkown players into top tier ones; it was still oppressive and Blizzard should have reacted after a couple of tournaments instead of waiting for BlizzCon to come. The fact didn't Blizzard didn't react isn't as damning to me as the disparity in how they responded with the Warp Prism not very long before. Warp Prism micro was creating problems and Protoss was winning as a result of it. That shit didn't last more than a couple of months before Warp Prisms got a nerf 2 actually, both in price and in pick up range. For comparison's sake, how long was the Blink Meta vs Terran a thing before THAT finally got a nerf? Correct me if I'm wrong but it feels like it lasted a HELL of a lot longer. Nydus Worms and Broodlord Infestor was allowed to be a thing for 6 months or longer? Really? Why? Why is it always ZERG that takes forever to get their just desserts when Terran and Protoss get nerfed so fucking fast all the god damn time? The only reasonable complaints that Zerg players have had over the years that I can remember, that were not solved quickly were Forcefields and Battlecruiser tactical jump. Both of which were either eliminated via indirect nerfs (Ravagers) or gutted via patches later and neither of those problems were anywhere NEAR as dominant as Infestor Broodlord was TWICE in the meta. | ||
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