16 player dual tournament. Best of 5 single elimination playoffs, with best of 7 finals. All 16 slots will be determined through server qualifiers: 7 from KR, 6 from EU, 2 from NA and 1 from CN.
Prize pool
1st: $7,668/¥50,000, plus 250 EPT points 2nd: $4,601/¥30,000, plus 180 EPT points 3rd: $3,067/¥20,000, plus 125 EPT points 4th: $1,534/¥10,000, plus 125 EPT points 5th-8th: $920/¥6,000, plus 75 EPT points 9th-12th: $460/¥3,000, plus 50 EPT points 13th-16th: $153/¥1,000, plus 25 EPT points
Total: ¥ 150,000/$23,003
Schedule
Qualifiers: November 4-8 Group Stage: November 22 - 25, November 29 - December 2 Playoffs: December 6-9
Server qualifiers
EU#1: Thursday, Nov 04 11:00am GMT (GMT+00:00), top 2 advance. Sign-up KR#1: Friday, Nov 05 8:00am GMT (GMT+00:00), top 4 advance. Sign-up CN: Saturday, Nov 06 1:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00), winner advances. Sign-up KR#2: Sunday, Nov 07 8:00am GMT (GMT+00:00), double elimination, top 3 advance. Sign-up AM: Monday, Nov 08 2:00am GMT (GMT+00:00), top 2 advance. Sign-up EU#2: Monday, Nov 08 11:00am GMT (GMT+00:00), top 4 advance. Sign-up
There are so many tournaments that are coming up! King of Battles, NeXT, TSL, WTL, and then we also have the Season Finals! I wonder if the players are feeling a bit burned out...
Thanks to a dubious bracketing in the KR Qualifer#1, we have Maru, Trap and Rogue on the same bracket, but Solar got the qualifying spot, so he wont have to play in CN server later. Also, Cure beat out Dark and Byun to qualify as well. Meanwhile, Zest and Classic qualify through a much easier bracket, mostly though Bunny, Dream and Zoun.
EU qualifier #2 are played with zero KR players because they are still in the middle of ST3 qualifier, which is just sad seeing how tournaments are not better coordinated to allow players more leeway to get their chance.
On November 08 2021 20:16 tigera6 wrote: EU qualifier #2 are played with zero KR players because they are still in the middle of ST3 qualifier, which is just sad seeing how tournaments are not better coordinated to allow players more leeway to get their chance.
Yeah, this means that Maru won't be in NeXT... which is insane to me after the bracket that he had to go through...
On November 08 2021 20:16 tigera6 wrote: EU qualifier #2 are played with zero KR players because they are still in the middle of ST3 qualifier, which is just sad seeing how tournaments are not better coordinated to allow players more leeway to get their chance.
Yeah, this means that Maru won't be in NeXT... which is insane to me after the bracket that he had to go through...
Not just Maru, also Trap and Byun as well. Imagine the defending champ, Trap cant protect his title because of the qualifier schedule conflict (and losing the KR qualifier).
On November 08 2021 20:16 tigera6 wrote: EU qualifier #2 are played with zero KR players because they are still in the middle of ST3 qualifier, which is just sad seeing how tournaments are not better coordinated to allow players more leeway to get their chance.
Yeah, this means that Maru won't be in NeXT... which is insane to me after the bracket that he had to go through...
Not just Maru, also Trap and Byun as well. Imagine the defending champ, Trap cant protect his title because of the qualifier schedule conflict (and losing the KR qualifier).
Yeah, I just realized that too. And the NeXT qualifiers had much more brutal bracket than these GSL ST qualifiers. For example, Maru only had to beat Ragnarok in the GSL ST qualifier, but he had a gauntlet of KR elite players, just for him to lose at the end to Dark and his Nydus into main base with lurkers...
Here to +1 those lamenting the ridiculous qualifying process. I totally get that organizing tourneys is not easy and there will inevitably be scheduling conflicts, but those KR qualifiers were BRUTAL. Honestly I don't think it's crazy to say that they involved as tough or tougher competition than the main event given the non-Serral/Reynor/Clem players that made it in. It's particularly sad to see Maru 2-0 Gumiho, Rogue, Dark, and Byun and not qualify. Five matches against Blizzcon champs--including double matches against both Rogue and Dark--is kind of insane for a qualifier process. Trap had a better draw, but still very sad to not see him make it.
I'm grateful to the NeXT team for all their work and support for the SC2 scene, but I hope in the future they'll revamp the qualification process. When you look at the quantity and quality of participants across the different server qualifiers, the outcome isn't particularly surprising. Just sad to see what should be a premier-level event not include premier-level talent. I fear that this might be a 2/3-0 fest until the semis, though I really hope I'm wrong.
Maru was like 10-15 minutes late for the check-in and couldnt join because the seeding and bracket was done. In general, I think NeXT was a bit too "generous" with the EU slot, up to 6 comparing to KR 7, and we end up having 2 non-EU guys getting out anyway (Time and Special who ironically lost their spots in CN and AM qualifiers to KR). And there clearly has been issues with GSL vs the rest of tournament in term of scheduling, like how DH Global Grand Final is on the morning of the GSL day, or this time where the qualifier of 2 tournaments overlapping. I find fault in both sides, and players are one get robbed because of that.
On November 18 2021 20:27 tigera6 wrote: The group is out, and we have THE group of Death right off the bat.
Weired seeding keeps on giving weired groups. They have 1 insanely hard group and 3 pretty doable ones, that are way weaker than any Kob2 group, wich is a mayor tournament
On October 31 2021 19:01 Legendk wrote: Community casters are allowed for qualifiers ?
Yes, join the event discord and contact their admin.
Hi digmouse, I noticed that the group matches have started already (based on liquidpedia.net) but no one seem to stream the matches. Wardii focused on WTL, and I don't think he will be able simultaneously broadcast two different matches at the same time. Where can I watch the matches?
On November 23 2021 21:18 Poopi wrote: Ogaming are streaming it but it's in french, dunno if there is an english stream atm: https://www.twitch.tv/ogamingsc2
Thanks. Wow, Classic's PvZ looked decent now killing top tier Zerg players in BO2 or BO3 matches.
It's a problem NEXT tournaments have been having since forever as they don't announce anything till it's starting and by that time no tournaments will make room for them.
On November 24 2021 15:41 digmouse wrote: It's a problem NEXT tournaments have been having since forever as they don't announce anything till it's starting and by that time no tournaments will make room for them.
Actually, I am okay if they just playing replay videos. They can just let the streamers broadcasting the contents very soon as long as they are not overlapped with other important tournaments schedule.
The tournament has as many EPT points and more prize money than King of Battles, but it is criminally under hyped / watched, at least for the group stages. It's probably mostly due to the scheduling mess so they don't have everyone casting it yet (because of WTL), but that's kind of a shame :|.
On November 24 2021 21:01 Poopi wrote: The tournament has as many EPT points and more prize money than King of Battles, but it is criminally under hyped / watched, at least for the group stages. It's probably mostly due to the scheduling mess so they don't have everyone casting it yet (because of WTL), but that's kind of a shame :|.
Also GSL ST And even if there wasn t any other tournament around, the seeding both for the qualifiers and now the groupstage was horrible as well, resulting in some of the best Players missing
Scheduling for the qualifiers was pretty bad as well iirc
So yeah, thats many reasons for way less HYPE and rightfully so
On November 30 2021 22:41 Lazzarus wrote: So Rogue lost to Lambo and Special, and was therefore knocked out - upset much?
Catching a game at home two hours after dismantling Dark at GSL studio did not help either. Also, Rogue might not preparing much perhaps due to his win streak record against Special before.
Is this the first time a foreigner may has real shot to win the tournament? Maru and Trap did not qualify while both Rogue and Solar who had decent achievements in the tournament before bombed out early in the group brackets.
List of NetEase champions before:
1. Solar 2. TY 3. Rogue 4. Trap 2x
On the foreigner side, we have Clem, Serral and Reynor (unless he survives the Group D bracket which is still possible because Cure and Zest are not in their great shape lately). So, this is an opportunity for Clem to shine.
Cure and Dark might be the hope of KR side this time around. But I am not sure how Cure can play in this tournament along with ST3 tomorrow. Unless he can win today match and tomorrow winner match through replay, the entire group would have to play early as well.
3 recent tournaments that Serral got the break from the bracket. DH Fall he got Bunny, Time and HM, KoB he got Elazer and HM knocking off Clem, now he got all Protosses and Ragnarok. Maybe if Zest can be at peak condition, then it would be interesting, but I dont see that happening.
Reynor is still qualified and top 4 / top 8 in every tournament but this one where he failed to win over Zest and Dark which can happen to anyone (even Maru) so actually not that dramatic (yet)
But I think for story-telling purposes we should absolutely over exaggerate :D
The deep fall of a World Champion - click here to learn more
On December 03 2021 01:24 Waxangel wrote: As it turns out Zest wasn't slumping; he was just being Zest
Zest slumping drama over, Reynor slumping new favorite drama:
I mean what's up with ever since AOE4 came out he's losing to everyone? I would'nt be surprised if he announced a switch very soon.
/s just in case
Reynor doing a Lilbow?
Reynor hasn't even touched AoE4, he's getting Diamond in League of Legends. He went on holidays, moved to London and evidently he's not as focused as he was earlier this year; I expect him to see him competitive at Katowice but we have seen worse slumps.
Dark just extended Clem's defeat to him by 8-0 today. So much from foreigner crusher and devastating to the player claimed to be no.1 in TvZ half a year ago.
On December 06 2021 21:59 swarminfestor wrote: Dark just extended Clem's defeat to him by 8-0 today. So much from foreigner crusher and devastating to the player claimed to be no.1 in TvZ half a year ago.
Half a year ago he had a positive record against Serral. And as a foreigner he is the only terran to ever have been able to perform at this level, in a matchup that pretty much only Maru can play. Fans have short memory and are quick to judge.
Any majorly competitive foreign performances at the international level have always been zerg, be it stephano, scarlet, reynor or serral.
On December 06 2021 21:59 swarminfestor wrote: Dark just extended Clem's defeat to him by 8-0 today. So much from foreigner crusher and devastating to the player claimed to be no.1 in TvZ half a year ago.
Half a year ago he had a positive record against Serral. And as a foreigner he is the only terran to ever have been able to perform at this level, in a matchup that pretty much only Maru can play. Fans have short memory and are quick to judge.
Any majorly competitive foreign performances at the international level have always been zerg, be it stephano, scarlet, reynor or serral.
On December 06 2021 21:59 swarminfestor wrote: Dark just extended Clem's defeat to him by 8-0 today. So much from foreigner crusher and devastating to the player claimed to be no.1 in TvZ half a year ago.
Half a year ago he had a positive record against Serral. And as a foreigner he is the only terran to ever have been able to perform at this level, in a matchup that pretty much only Maru can play. Fans have short memory and are quick to judge.
Any majorly competitive foreign performances at the international level have always been zerg, be it stephano, scarlet, reynor or serral.
Yeah, I felt like Clem just need to play more competitive games with Serral. By crushing Serral several times, it will build him confidence in that matchup. Or, he should just sit together with top tier Zerg player brainstorming how to beat each other in many ways other than countering lings banes hydra or lings hydra lurker with widow mines and rines turtling.
On December 06 2021 21:59 swarminfestor wrote: Dark just extended Clem's defeat to him by 8-0 today. So much from foreigner crusher and devastating to the player claimed to be no.1 in TvZ half a year ago.
Half a year ago he had a positive record against Serral. And as a foreigner he is the only terran to ever have been able to perform at this level, in a matchup that pretty much only Maru can play. Fans have short memory and are quick to judge.
Any majorly competitive foreign performances at the international level have always been zerg, be it stephano, scarlet, reynor or serral.
Neeb.
I love how the post writes about short memory while ignoring Neeb. And the even older successful players like HuK, NaNiwa or ThorZaIN I can understand forgetting Huk and Thorzain, but Naniwa? He got twice into the Code S RO8, got some nice silvers or top4 finishes. If we're talking about a good international performance it seems like a good results consideirng the competition.
On December 06 2021 21:59 swarminfestor wrote: Dark just extended Clem's defeat to him by 8-0 today. So much from foreigner crusher and devastating to the player claimed to be no.1 in TvZ half a year ago.
Half a year ago he had a positive record against Serral. And as a foreigner he is the only terran to ever have been able to perform at this level, in a matchup that pretty much only Maru can play. Fans have short memory and are quick to judge.
Any majorly competitive foreign performances at the international level have always been zerg, be it stephano, scarlet, reynor or serral.
Neeb.
I love how the post writes about short memory while ignoring Neeb. And the even older successful players like HuK, NaNiwa or ThorZaIN I can understand forgetting Huk and Thorzain, but Naniwa? He got twice into the Code S RO8, got some nice silvers or top4 finishes. If we're talking about a good international performance it seems like a good results consideirng the competition.
If we mock premature confidence, then nothing deserves mockery as much as HuK's top 3 control. But how are all these foreigners that went to Korea and had the occasional deeper GSL run (Jinro, Idra, Huk etc) for a short period meaningful to mention as consistent top contenders compared to the four zerg players I mentioned?
Guys like Polt were probably more consistent and I don't really think that anyone would mention him when listing major SC2 achievers. I'd agree that Naniwa really gave us hope back in the day, though, he was really something at his prime.
On December 06 2021 21:59 swarminfestor wrote: Dark just extended Clem's defeat to him by 8-0 today. So much from foreigner crusher and devastating to the player claimed to be no.1 in TvZ half a year ago.
Half a year ago he had a positive record against Serral. And as a foreigner he is the only terran to ever have been able to perform at this level, in a matchup that pretty much only Maru can play. Fans have short memory and are quick to judge.
Any majorly competitive foreign performances at the international level have always been zerg, be it stephano, scarlet, reynor or serral.
Neeb.
I love how the post writes about short memory while ignoring Neeb. And the even older successful players like HuK, NaNiwa or ThorZaIN I can understand forgetting Huk and Thorzain, but Naniwa? He got twice into the Code S RO8, got some nice silvers or top4 finishes. If we're talking about a good international performance it seems like a good results consideirng the competition.
If we mock premature confidence, then nothing deserves mockery as much as HuK's top 3 control. But how are all these foreigners that went to Korea and had the occasional deeper GSL run (Jinro, Idra, Huk etc) for a short period meaningful to mention as consistent top contenders compared to the four zerg players I mentioned?
Guys like Polt were probably more consistent and I don't really think that anyone would mention him when listing major SC2 achievers. I'd agree that Naniwa really gave us hope back in the day, though, he was really something at his prime.
HuK was one of the best Protoss during the early year, sure, overhyped, but he had some good results. ThorZaIN as well(he played for a short time though) and FFS NaNiwa got some good results in 2013.
Like sure, they never had the success level of Stephano, but they were capable of beating Koreans, especially NaNiwa.
Edit> We can discuss how good Koreans were back there, but he got some nice names - HyuN, Dear, JD.
BTW NaNiwa beat Innovation during Season 2 finals in the group stages
So it wasn't just some lucky foreigner, he was good. Not the best, but good enough.
Edit> the original quote was Any majorly competitive foreign performances at the international level have always been zerg, be it stephano, scarlet, reynor or serral. These players I named were competitive foreigners at their prime and they weren't just one tournament wonder. Sure, it wasn't for years, in case of HuK and ThorZaIN it was for a year, but they were majorly competitive performing while being foreigners.
Clem's level of play has gone downhill, his only matchup that seemed stable or even slightly better for Clem is TvP; the crisis of Protoss, however, looks way worse than Clem's slump. Earlier in the year Clem was playing better in TvT as well and righftully looked like the best player in the world in TvZ; just to make an example, Clem's TvZ streak against Reynor was 11-0, he's 1-3 in the last two months and Reynor, too, has performing quite poorly of recent.
Judging performance retroactively is quite silly, in any of case it's crystal clear that Clem has recently been struggling in TvZ even on the EU server where he looked unbeatable earlier in the year, go figure what happens when he plays cross server where he has never relatively shined. Clem evidently doesn't like the new maps but it seems to me that his confidence is the main issue, he looked disheartened after a single loss in the series too often.
On December 06 2021 21:59 swarminfestor wrote: Dark just extended Clem's defeat to him by 8-0 today. So much from foreigner crusher and devastating to the player claimed to be no.1 in TvZ half a year ago.
It’s the new map pool, that is kinda expected tbh. Hopefully Maru does some magic at Katowice with clever 2rax spots!
I don't disagree with you deacon.frost, but I think we're talking about different scales of achievements. I never questioned that there are good foreigners who have famously beaten Koreans - we all went crazy when Sjow beat Life but we wouldn't really call Sjow a legend today.
My point is that indiscriminate mockery of slumping players who performed well in retrospect doesn't take into account the racial aspect. His current results are disappointing, but actual consistency in striking fear in Koreans is something only done by zerg.
We do need Clem to get back on this top form in TvZ by IEM, or we gonna see Maru having to march through the bracket full of Zerg. What hurts Clem more now is that he is losing the gap on the top 4 EPT ranking global (to Serral or possibly Dark), meaning he will be pushed down to the 2nd tier and will have to be in the same group with Maru/Rogue/Trap AND possibly Reynor or HM as well.
On December 06 2021 23:18 Calliope wrote: I don't disagree with you deacon.frost, but I think we're talking about different scales of achievements. I never questioned that there are good foreigners who have famously beaten Koreans - we all went crazy when Sjow beat Life but we wouldn't really call Sjow a legend today.
My point is that indiscriminate mockery of slumping players who performed well in retrospect doesn't take into account the racial aspect. His current results are disappointing, but actual consistency in striking fear in Koreans is something only done by zerg.
On December 06 2021 21:59 swarminfestor wrote: Dark just extended Clem's defeat to him by 8-0 today. So much from foreigner crusher and devastating to the player claimed to be no.1 in TvZ half a year ago.
It’s the new map pool, that is kinda expected tbh. Hopefully Maru does some magic at Katowice with clever 2rax spots!
I wouldn't put my hopes up. Maru's success is mostly based in Korea and considering the past 2 years the jetlag may be even bigger issue than before. And that's if we're being positive about the onsite event
I'm on mobile so I can't really copy and paste in a nice way, but to address deacon's last point, if you can't put your hopes in maru you can't put it in any terran. The only terran winning anything even close to a premier international event is maru.
And it's kinda ridiculous how close maru has been to winning not one, not two, but three iems. Lost one to life in the grandfinals, lost another to rogue in the ro4, and again lost one to reynor in the ro4. In every single series he was one game away from beating his opponents, and every single one of those opponents was the winner of that particular iem
On December 07 2021 05:05 Lokol18 wrote: I'm on mobile so I can't really copy and paste in a nice way, but to address deacon's last point, if you can't put your hopes in maru you can't put it in any terran. The only terran winning anything even close to a premier international event is maru.
And it's kinda ridiculous how close maru has been to winning not one, not two, but three iems. Lost one to life in the grandfinals, lost another to rogue in the ro4, and again lost one to reynor in the ro4. In every single series he was one game away from beating his opponents, and every single one of those opponents was the winner of that particular iem
Well, yeah. That's the point i'm trying to make in all the Protoss is dead threads but they somehow see Maru winning so Terran is fine.
And while I would love Maru to win, I see Zerg winning it.
Even if Maru comes in a great form he would have to play so many Zergs that by the end all his builds and tricks will be gone.
On December 07 2021 05:05 Lokol18 wrote: I'm on mobile so I can't really copy and paste in a nice way, but to address deacon's last point, if you can't put your hopes in maru you can't put it in any terran. The only terran winning anything even close to a premier international event is maru.
And it's kinda ridiculous how close maru has been to winning not one, not two, but three iems. Lost one to life in the grandfinals, lost another to rogue in the ro4, and again lost one to reynor in the ro4. In every single series he was one game away from beating his opponents, and every single one of those opponents was the winner of that particular iem
Well, yeah. That's the point i'm trying to make in all the Protoss is dead threads but they somehow see Maru winning so Terran is fine.
And while I would love Maru to win, I see Zerg winning it.
Even if Maru comes in a great form he would have to play so many Zergs that by the end all his builds and tricks will be gone.
Yeah, Zerg is heavily favored to win any big tournament at this point. Balance aside, the way military service has worked out there are four Zerg title contenders (maybe three if Reynor continues to slump, but I expect him to get back in shape for Katowice), one Protoss title contender (Zest has made a lot of deep runs but it's hard to take his winning chances seriously since he hasn't won anything in a while), and one Terran contender (Cure's TvZ isn't good enough to win international competitions imo.)
Even if balance were perfect (I think matchups are generally even except for PvZ), the army claiming more Terran/Protoss players would lead to Zerg dominance.
On December 07 2021 05:05 Lokol18 wrote: I'm on mobile so I can't really copy and paste in a nice way, but to address deacon's last point, if you can't put your hopes in maru you can't put it in any terran. The only terran winning anything even close to a premier international event is maru.
And it's kinda ridiculous how close maru has been to winning not one, not two, but three iems. Lost one to life in the grandfinals, lost another to rogue in the ro4, and again lost one to reynor in the ro4. In every single series he was one game away from beating his opponents, and every single one of those opponents was the winner of that particular iem
Well, yeah. That's the point i'm trying to make in all the Protoss is dead threads but they somehow see Maru winning so Terran is fine.
And while I would love Maru to win, I see Zerg winning it.
Even if Maru comes in a great form he would have to play so many Zergs that by the end all his builds and tricks will be gone.
Yeah, Zerg is heavily favored to win any big tournament at this point. Balance aside, the way military service has worked out there are four Zerg title contenders (maybe three if Reynor continues to slump, but I expect him to get back in shape for Katowice), one Protoss title contender (Zest has made a lot of deep runs but it's hard to take his winning chances seriously since he hasn't won anything in a while), and one Terran contender (Cure's TvZ isn't good enough to win international competitions imo.)
Even if balance were perfect (I think matchups are generally even except for PvZ), the army claiming more Terran/Protoss players would lead to Zerg dominance.
Trap already mentioned that he's in danger of not going, but the chances of going are higher. So it may heppen that IEM will be without any top Protoss and that would be so bad...
Classics level of PvZ is nowhere near good enough to challenge Serral. Actually there is no protoss and the moment to challenge Serral in the skytoss macro game, dont even think there is a point in anyone trying except of Trap when hes feeling it.
Serral could probably easilly beat Classic with all kind of intricate builds or high pace agressive play, which somehow makes it even more depressing to just have a bunch of queen walks
On December 07 2021 20:47 Nakajin wrote: Serral could probably easilly beat Classic with all kind of intricate build or high pace agressive play, which somehow makes it even more depressing to just have a bunch of queen walks
Queen walk out of creeps should be nerfed as I suggested before. Let the Zerg player work out by carrying queens with droplords instead of sending queen for walking out of creeps.
The last game wasnt an issue. Classic could have scouted the low drone count, the move out, even the transition to banes after, he had the tools to quite easily win that game as it was a massive risk from Serral who got himself into a very terrible spot eco wise.
On December 07 2021 21:05 MarianoSC2 wrote: The last game wasnt an issue. Classic could have scouted the low drone count, the move out, even the transition to banes after, he had the tools to quite easily win that game as it was a massive risk from Serral who got himself into a very terrible spot eco wise.
Yes game 3 was the definitely the most depressing of that series. Classic actually had a chance there and was even ahead at some point.
Lol the Zest bank and some if his engagements never cease to amaze. Did his best to throw the game after a good defense at the start. He has nothing against the broods :D
The inability of Protoss players never to pre split armies and do decent army movement in a fight is astonishing. Zest desparately wanted to throw this but Rag needed 5 tries to actually catch the ball
I dont think Zest can beat Serral at this point looking at his first game against Ragnarok today.
Blizzard, please do something, It is very hard to see queen walk strat again for each game in PvZ. That is four games in row and just not interesting to watch.
On December 07 2021 21:38 swarminfestor wrote: I dont think Zest can beat Serral at this point looking at his first game against Ragnarok today.
Blizzard, please do something, It is very hard to see queen walk strat again for each game in PvZ. That is four games in row and just not interesting to watch.
Please, for the love of god, do NOT take this game 1 as some sort of example that Zerg/ Zerg tactics is op....
On December 07 2021 21:38 swarminfestor wrote: I dont think Zest can beat Serral at this point looking at his first game against Ragnarok today.
Blizzard, please do something, It is very hard to see queen walk strat again for each game in PvZ. That is four games in row and just not interesting to watch.
Please, for the love of god, do NOT take this game 1 as some sort of example that Zerg/ Zerg tactics is op....
We have fifth games today in row with the similar strategy. Nothing good to watch at least in audience perspective.
There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
On December 07 2021 21:38 swarminfestor wrote: I dont think Zest can beat Serral at this point looking at his first game against Ragnarok today.
Blizzard, please do something, It is very hard to see queen walk strat again for each game in PvZ. That is four games in row and just not interesting to watch.
Please, for the love of god, do NOT take this game 1 as some sort of example that Zerg/ Zerg tactics is op....
We have fifth games today in row with the similar strategy. Nothing good to watch at least in audience perspective.
Maybe Zergs would not use it as much to get quick easy wins if the Toss players defended it better. The strategy is dumb and boring for sure, but its similar to Void Ray proxy battery in PvT. On Pro level we rarely see this strat anymore because its very easily defendable with the right tools and scouting
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Exactly. Anyway Zest should still beat Ragnarok despite throwing that game 1, he just looks better overall
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Meh, Zerg will probably just adapt the queen walk and still wreck / come out ahead. Zest also beat queen walks with Void rays + mass batteries in some games a few months ago, doesn't mean Zergs didn't win any queen walks after (as we have seen countless times). It's only 2 games that were won with mass oracles so far (yes, 2 out of 2).
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Meh, Zerg will probably just adapt the queen walk and still wreck / come out ahead. Zest also beat queen walks with Void rays + mass batteries in some games a few months ago, doesn't mean Zergs didn't win any queen walks after (as we have seen countless times). It's only 2 games that were won with mass oracles so far (yes, 2 out of 2).
That's the beauty of Starcraft. 10 years later it still evolves. More and more Protoss players will play and perfect mass oracle strat and suddenly Zerg cries "Toss OP" until a Zerg figures out to counter it reliably and then we will be at "Zerg OP" again
People are overeacting to the Queen Walk thing imo, sure they are tanky, can heal, and got decent DPS in mass. They are still the ONLY anti-air option for Zerg before Lair tech, what else you supposed Zerg to make against unit that fly? If Hydra tech was a tier-one, no Toss would even even think about double SG opening.
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Meh, Zerg will probably just adapt the queen walk and still wreck / come out ahead. Zest also beat queen walks with Void rays + mass batteries in some games a few months ago, doesn't mean Zergs didn't win any queen walks after (as we have seen countless times). It's only 2 games that were won with mass oracles so far (yes, 2 out of 2).
That's the beauty of Starcraft. 10 years later it still evolves. More and more Protoss players will play and perfect mass oracle strat and suddenly Zerg cries "Toss OP" until a Zerg figures out to counter it reliably and then we will be at "Zerg OP" again
I love how ppl say herO solved that, not like the oracle strat is heavily depending on the zerg not socuting and commiting isntead of waiting and abusing you having invested the money into 8 oracles :D
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Meh, Zerg will probably just adapt the queen walk and still wreck / come out ahead. Zest also beat queen walks with Void rays + mass batteries in some games a few months ago, doesn't mean Zergs didn't win any queen walks after (as we have seen countless times). It's only 2 games that were won with mass oracles so far (yes, 2 out of 2).
That's the beauty of Starcraft. 10 years later it still evolves. More and more Protoss players will play and perfect mass oracle strat and suddenly Zerg cries "Toss OP" until a Zerg figures out to counter it reliably and then we will be at "Zerg OP" again
I love how ppl say herO solved that, not like the oracle strat is heavily depending on the zerg not socuting and commiting isntead of waiting and abusing you having invested the money into 8 oracles :D
Well, yeah scouting is part of it. It's not like Toss has a gazillion ways to scout Queens Gambit early.
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Meh, Zerg will probably just adapt the queen walk and still wreck / come out ahead. Zest also beat queen walks with Void rays + mass batteries in some games a few months ago, doesn't mean Zergs didn't win any queen walks after (as we have seen countless times). It's only 2 games that were won with mass oracles so far (yes, 2 out of 2).
That's the beauty of Starcraft. 10 years later it still evolves. More and more Protoss players will play and perfect mass oracle strat and suddenly Zerg cries "Toss OP" until a Zerg figures out to counter it reliably and then we will be at "Zerg OP" again
I love how ppl say herO solved that, not like the oracle strat is heavily depending on the zerg not socuting and commiting isntead of waiting and abusing you having invested the money into 8 oracles :D
It's also not like herO after the TSL match immediately said Zest came up with it first
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Meh, Zerg will probably just adapt the queen walk and still wreck / come out ahead. Zest also beat queen walks with Void rays + mass batteries in some games a few months ago, doesn't mean Zergs didn't win any queen walks after (as we have seen countless times). It's only 2 games that were won with mass oracles so far (yes, 2 out of 2).
That's the beauty of Starcraft. 10 years later it still evolves. More and more Protoss players will play and perfect mass oracle strat and suddenly Zerg cries "Toss OP" until a Zerg figures out to counter it reliably and then we will be at "Zerg OP" again
I love how ppl say herO solved that, not like the oracle strat is heavily depending on the zerg not socuting and commiting isntead of waiting and abusing you having invested the money into 8 oracles :D
It's also not like herO after the TSL match immediately said Zest came up with it first
He did? Pity because this would be such a herO thing to do ^^ Curious to see if this turns into a legit counter
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Didn't you say the queen walk was solved? Somebody needs to tell Zest.
Also with unwatchable PvZ (which is a big part of the game considering how few Terrans there are) we will lose viewers, with less viewers the incentive to create SC2 events will be lower.
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Didn't you say the queen walk was solved? Somebody needs to tell Zest.
Also with unwatchable PvZ (which is a big part of the game considering how few Terrans there are) we will lose viewers, with less viewers the incentive to create SC2 events will be lower.
Well, Zest laughably easily defended the queen walk in game 1. He even made a lot of stupid micro mistakes and still it wasnt even remotely close. The 2nd game was a build order loss, nothing to do with queen walk.
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Didn't you say the queen walk was solved? Somebody needs to tell Zest.
Also with unwatchable PvZ (which is a big part of the game considering how few Terrans there are) we will lose viewers, with less viewers the incentive to create SC2 events will be lower.
Well, Zest laughably easily defended the queen walk in game 1. He even made a lot of stupid micro mistakes and still it wasnt even remotely close. The 2nd game was a build order loss, nothing to do with queen walk.
Well, he lost to a queenwalk, I'm not saying it's imba, it's just not obviously solved if you lose with queens killing you at your nat :D
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Didn't you say the queen walk was solved? Somebody needs to tell Zest.
Also with unwatchable PvZ (which is a big part of the game considering how few Terrans there are) we will lose viewers, with less viewers the incentive to create SC2 events will be lower.
Well, Zest laughably easily defended the queen walk in game 1. He even made a lot of stupid micro mistakes and still it wasnt even remotely close. The 2nd game was a build order loss, nothing to do with queen walk.
Well, he lost to a queenwalk, I'm not saying it's imba, it's just not obviously solved if you lose with queens killing you at your nat :D
I thought when we say a strat is solved it means that it can be quite confidently countered. Otherwise no strat would be solved, every attack in the game has potential to kill you if you are not ready for it. Serrals build directly countered what Zest was doing (+ Zest donated his adepts), it happens sometimes, just bit of luck, nothing more to it
Btw. Zest is playing super garbage today... I know he has these kind of days quite often and didn't except him to actually beat Serral but his control and decisions are just sad, giving out free units all the time, fighting for no reason, welp.
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Didn't you say the queen walk was solved? Somebody needs to tell Zest.
Also with unwatchable PvZ (which is a big part of the game considering how few Terrans there are) we will lose viewers, with less viewers the incentive to create SC2 events will be lower.
Well, Zest laughably easily defended the queen walk in game 1. He even made a lot of stupid micro mistakes and still it wasnt even remotely close. The 2nd game was a build order loss, nothing to do with queen walk.
G2 kind of his what I hate most about queen walk. After defending the first adept wave there's lot of option for the zerg to follow up with a lead. You can slap a hydra den and goes for a max out timming or a longer game , goes for a quick ravager-bane bust before the air army is ready, go spire into corruptor with a fourth, ect ... While all of these option may hold some risk it's not like they are bad choice, but queen walk arr so much better than anything else you can do there's pretty much no reason you shouldn't go for it on the counter.
I thought Zest got a shot to take it to super lategame with Skytoss, he seems to be very well with it previously. His timing attack in game 3 was lacking Templar to deal with Viper, and game 4 was close but on cigar on it.
Zest seemed like he wanted to extend till late games but apparently do not find sufficient to crush Serral armies. All his high tier armies got crushed in the end.
As expected, foreigner will win this tournament. Lambo can outsmart Serral in the final by winning some maps, but I don't think he can win in total. So, it is tournament for Serral to not lose.
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Didn't you say the queen walk was solved? Somebody needs to tell Zest.
Also with unwatchable PvZ (which is a big part of the game considering how few Terrans there are) we will lose viewers, with less viewers the incentive to create SC2 events will be lower.
Well, Zest laughably easily defended the queen walk in game 1. He even made a lot of stupid micro mistakes and still it wasnt even remotely close. The 2nd game was a build order loss, nothing to do with queen walk.
G2 kind of his what I hate most about queen walk. After defending the first adept wave there's lot of option for the zerg to follow up with a lead. You can slap a hydra den and goes for a max out timming or a longer game , goes for a quick ravager-bane bust before the air army is ready, go spire into corruptor with a fourth, ect ... While all of these option may hold some risk it's not like they are bad choice, but queen walk arr so much better than anything else you can do there's pretty much no reason you shouldn't go for it on the counter.
I agree that its annoying and boring to watch but if Serral didnt counter Zests glaives build like he did he could have taken damage and I guarantee you there would be no queen walk, or a desperation queen walk destined to fail. Also Zest donated like 12 adepts for 2 roaches and was in the middle of his air transition, had 65 probes to 45 drones, no batteries. Serral could have left his Queens at home and still would have won the game.
+ it also goes the other way around, I've seen zergs die to glaive adept build countless times if not scouted or properly countered, and its also quite annoying.
PvZ just sucks as a matchup, everything there is complete bullshit from both players and viewers perspective :/
Serral can consume Protosses left and right as he wish, but when it comes to the Dark-beating Padawan of same school of Z, even The Goat need to show his best.
Psychologically, this is one of the hardest grand finals ever. To prepare. No secrets. Only mind game.
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Didn't you say the queen walk was solved? Somebody needs to tell Zest.
That's a shitty comment and you know it Zest was not up to par today and that is just not enough for the likes of Serral, Dark and Rogue no matter the strategy
On December 07 2021 22:00 Harris1st wrote: There is a difference between "this is boring to watch" and "this strat is unstoppable"
Like you mentioned, herO was 2 years away and insta solves the problem. At this point I'm inclined to think Protoss players are just bad right now instead of Zerg OP
Didn't you say the queen walk was solved? Somebody needs to tell Zest.
That's a shitty comment and you know it Zest was not up to par today and that is just not enough for the likes of Serral, Dark and Rogue no matter the strategy
Shitty comment was pretending that herO solved the queenwalk as well IMO
Queenwalks are still deadly, it's just that if you don't scout oracles you die to them when you walk in them. And they have the energy.
Very well done by Lambo, it wasn't impossible for him but taking down Dark is still a pretty hard task; seeing him win would be great, honestly.
Well, if Dark threw today it must have been because he realized how much Reynor had thrown against him in the group stages and wanted to repay the dept to another EU Zerg
I remember him saying that it s harder to get a good result in DH EU than in international tournaments. He said he ll never win EU, but still thinks he has a decent shot at 3rd party stuff like this.
And he has his best result in years in a international event, nice
I expect there will be very fast games. If Serral is still even or ahead by the time roach wars end then there is pretty much only one direction this is going
Other than the dominating win on Clem, who is also faltering in TvZ, Dark has not been been showing much impressive gameplays in this tournament. It seems like he plays too standard and end up getting out-strategy or out-tech by the opponent.
On December 09 2021 22:27 Pandain wrote: To be honest we all should have expected a much closer finals considering Lambo beat Dark AND Rogue to get here
On December 09 2021 22:53 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: Damn, sad for Lambo, he is the brain behind zerg strategies in Europe, would be really cool for him to get the trophy.
Lambo just being Elazer, crumbled at the player who had better game sense in the final. I thought first he was kind of Rogue in Eu region in term of strategy planning and mind games, but it seemed like he did not reach that level yet.
yeah ofc we knew well Serral had an advantage in the grand finals experience department or mental strength department. It's not a question if Lambo was an underdog or not (he was), but he was close to win and it would be really cool to see him celebrate, would make a good (pre-Christmas) story.
On December 09 2021 23:04 swarminfestor wrote: If Serral takes TSL trophy too, he may surpass Rogue and Maru in term of tournaments winning cash prizes. Trap, better do good job tomorrow.
He wont be able to catch Rogue, its still 10k apart and Rogue will make at least 1k from TSL.
On December 09 2021 23:04 swarminfestor wrote: If Serral takes TSL trophy too, he may surpass Rogue and Maru in term of tournaments winning cash prizes. Trap, better do good job tomorrow.
The million dollar race is most likely going to come down to Katowice next year. It's pretty likely that at least one of the three will reach the semifinals, and it adds a bit of extra spice to the competition.
As for this tournament, it is a pity for Lambo. He may not feel it right now, but in a few days I think he will be proud of this run. First ever premier final and defeating Rogue, Zoun and Dark to get there is a great performance.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/UIdATbI.png)
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I love how the post writes about short memory while ignoring Neeb. And the even older successful players like HuK, NaNiwa or ThorZaIN 
