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On July 02 2021 18:15 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2021 17:51 Harris1st wrote:On July 02 2021 17:35 sneakyfox wrote:
That's an odd reply. So if it doesn't make Koreans auto lose but only gives them a disadvantage, it's all good? Should equal playing conditions not be required?
Lag sucks, timezone difference sucks - we all know it but what can you do? One can only play to the best of ones abilities until international offline play comes back If you're the organiser then you can schedule matches earlier or later in the day, which will then result in decreasing or increasing the disadvantage of players in east Asia. As for lag, yeah that's just the way it is.
Yeah, the time zone problem can definitely be addressed if wanted to. Seriously, all people who think playing from 2-6am in the morning is not big of a deal, go and try it yourself for like 1 week or 1 month to see how worse your results compared to normal condition.
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On July 02 2021 18:44 parksonsc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2021 18:15 sneakyfox wrote:On July 02 2021 17:51 Harris1st wrote:On July 02 2021 17:35 sneakyfox wrote:
That's an odd reply. So if it doesn't make Koreans auto lose but only gives them a disadvantage, it's all good? Should equal playing conditions not be required?
Lag sucks, timezone difference sucks - we all know it but what can you do? One can only play to the best of ones abilities until international offline play comes back If you're the organiser then you can schedule matches earlier or later in the day, which will then result in decreasing or increasing the disadvantage of players in east Asia. As for lag, yeah that's just the way it is. Yeah, the time zone problem can definitely be addressed if wanted to. Seriously, all people who think playing from 2-6am in the morning is not big of a deal, go and try it yourself for like 1 week or 1 month to see how worse your results compared to normal condition.
Yeah I have a dayjob, so no thank you. But when I was a student I did that all the time and I was better at night 
On July 02 2021 18:39 buzz_bender wrote:
It just annoys, saddens, and angers me at times that no one in ESL seems to care about the Koreans at all. Even the prizepool that was taken from Katowice this year has not been distributed to tournaments that the Koreans are eligible for. It's all given to the foreigners. That's just blatantly unfair. So many of ESL's decisions since they have taken over have not been favourable to the Koreans at all. In fact, I can't think of one...
They changed the ESL Open schedule for Koreans and upped the prize pool for all.
The rest of the prize pool money, no idea. Was it spread? And where?
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On July 02 2021 19:01 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2021 18:39 buzz_bender wrote:
It just annoys, saddens, and angers me at times that no one in ESL seems to care about the Koreans at all. Even the prizepool that was taken from Katowice this year has not been distributed to tournaments that the Koreans are eligible for. It's all given to the foreigners. That's just blatantly unfair. So many of ESL's decisions since they have taken over have not been favourable to the Koreans at all. In fact, I can't think of one...
They changed the ESL Open schedule for Koreans and upped the prize pool for all. The rest of the prize pool money, no idea. Was it spread? And where?
https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/571424-new-ept-prize-pool-announced-for-2021-and-2022
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On July 02 2021 17:03 Wardi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2021 13:59 RKC wrote:
Great production and casting, kudos to Scarlett.
But hard to take the competition seriously with the Koreans (once again) being wrecked harder by cross-server lag and time-zone disadvantage.
Here's a suggestion - can matches in the same group be played simultaneously (e.g. winner vs winner and loser v loser) to minimise the wait time and avoid matches being dragged out till 4-5am Korean time? I suppose the drawback is reduced viewership and stretched casting resources. Trap just won TSL7 in the same / worse conditions (went even later into the night) so while I don’t disagree the time zone has an affect we should maybe realize it does ‘t just make them auto lose. Then we are complaining about ping when half of maps are favoured for the koreans with ping and other half favour eu with a difference of 30-40, also doesn’t make sense.
Thanks for the response!
Generally, in any game or sport, poorer playing conditions is more punishing on the more skillful player or team. Because their ability to hit their peak performance is diminished, and the element of luck increases.
Here's some analogies. Imagine Spain playing football on a soggy pitch under a thunderstorm. Or Magnus Carlsen playing super 5-minute blitz chess variant with no queens.
Anyway, you guys are the host, and business is business. If you believe the current format guarantees top quality SC2 games and top viewership, so be it...
Incidentally, there's Euros and an online chess tourney featuring both Spain and Magnus later at the same time with DH. No doubt in my mind which I'll be tuning in later... 
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Canada8991 Posts
On July 02 2021 18:39 buzz_bender wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2021 17:51 Harris1st wrote:On July 02 2021 17:35 sneakyfox wrote:
That's an odd reply. So if it doesn't make Koreans auto lose but only gives them a disadvantage, it's all good? Should equal playing conditions not be required?
Lag sucks, timezone difference sucks - we all know it but what can you do? Which I think everyone agrees. But what's been grinding our gears is that it is *always* the Koreans who have had to fight through these disadvantages. Wardi mentioned that Trap won TSL7, but that's despite the disadvantages of lag and timezone. I have not seen one major tournament (especially the Season Finals, when there's so much at stake) been organised to minimise any sort of disadvantages for the Koreans. The only one that I know of is the King of Battles, which started way earlier to help the Koreans. From time to time, I agree that there's nothing we can do about it. But at the very least, can we not organise it in such a way that the players "take turns" in fighting through the disadvantages, like the server choices? It just annoys, saddens, and angers me at times that no one in ESL seems to care about the Koreans at all. Even the prizepool that was taken from Katowice this year has not been distributed to tournaments that the Koreans are eligible for. It's all given to the foreigners. That's just blatantly unfair. So many of ESL's decisions since they have taken over have not been favourable to the Koreans at all. In fact, I can't think of one...
Well they are doing season finals and esl cup in Asia giving out thousands of dollar to the Korean player, considering before them the norm was to ban Korean from every event except GSL I'd say that's a pretty good bonus.
And you know, of course, I would like the condition to be better across the board, at the end of the day ESL is not running a charity and does not have any responsability toward Korean or any player (saddly maybe) so it does make sense they organise their event to have the most viewers.
Also the WTL is definitly an event that favored the Korean (well Chinese) time zone, and I don't particularly feel confident to go tell the chinese they need to change their schedule because it's start at a terrible hour for the NA team. At the end of the day their tournament is mostly for chinese spectators. (like ESL is mostly for EU and NA spectators)
By the way: Apparently I won 50$ on the TL Store because of the TSL 7 TLO predictions, and don't think I will use it.
If anyone wants it PM me, first one first serve
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Zest VOLUNTARILY plays the EU ESL cup for example. Korean apologists really need to chill out wrt the time zone stuff. Isn't being Korean itself a sort of advantage?
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On July 02 2021 19:39 Nakajin wrote:
By the way: Apparently I won 50$ on the TL Store because of the TSL 7 TLO predictions, and don't think I will use it.
If anyone wants it PM me, first one first serve
Gratz!
I won some Liquid + poynts but I have no idea what to do with that ^^
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If GSL is happening during the day, it start at 18.30 KST / 9.30 UTC / 11.30 CEST and last about 4 hours. Running event before GSL isn't really option for other time zones. In addition you want to give players time to move around, eat, etc. before starting next event so you add something like 2 hours between events. So start time for this could be around 0.30 KST / 15.30 UTC / 17.30 CEST. Earlier times could be possible but they could easily run to problems with running same time with GSL.
You could also change the days so that earlier times are possible as GSL isn't happening but you need to remember that amount viewers is important for organizers. GSL start at 18.30 KST to get the best audience and viewership. You also probably want same schedule for every day. Changing either GSL days or ESL days can run to many problems. For example I'm pretty sure that GSL studio is used by other events on other days and moving those around can be really hard.
There is also possibility of just avoiding the GSL all together, but it last 7 weeks plus qualifiers. This would limit when the tournament can happen way too much. Also you most likely want run tournament every 2-3 months and you probably don't want to skip summer months in your event schedule when most of your viewers are from northern hemisphere.
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Canada8991 Posts
On July 02 2021 20:39 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2021 19:39 Nakajin wrote:
By the way: Apparently I won 50$ on the TL Store because of the TSL 7 TLO predictions, and don't think I will use it.
If anyone wants it PM me, first one first serve Gratz! I won some Liquid + poynts but I have no idea what to do with that ^^
IDK either, I mean if it was precious TL+ point giving me access to a select, member only, forum then I would have jumped on it. (Does TL+ still exist btw?)
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On July 02 2021 19:57 mierin wrote:
Zest VOLUNTARILY plays the EU ESL cup for example. Korean apologists really need to chill out wrt the time zone stuff. Isn't being Korean itself a sort of advantage?
Didn't know koreans had superior genetics
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On July 02 2021 17:35 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2021 17:03 Wardi wrote:On July 02 2021 13:59 RKC wrote:
Great production and casting, kudos to Scarlett.
But hard to take the competition seriously with the Koreans (once again) being wrecked harder by cross-server lag and time-zone disadvantage.
Here's a suggestion - can matches in the same group be played simultaneously (e.g. winner vs winner and loser v loser) to minimise the wait time and avoid matches being dragged out till 4-5am Korean time? I suppose the drawback is reduced viewership and stretched casting resources. Trap just won TSL7 in the same / worse conditions (went even later into the night) so while I don’t disagree the time zone has an affect we should maybe realize it does ‘t just make them auto lose. That's an odd reply. So if it doesn't make Koreans auto lose but only gives them a disadvantage, it's all good? Should equal playing conditions not be required? It was so refreshing that the TSL7 organisers openly acknowledged that there is a problem with the time zone difference, which is honestly so damn obvious that it's hard not to. Yet from ESL all we hear (if we hear anything) is that it's not really a problem, look Koreans are still winning some games, etc. (And then sometimes the at least honest point that it's just a business decision). Show nested quote +
Then we are complaining about ping when half of maps are favoured for the koreans with ping and other half favour eu with a difference of 30-40, also doesn’t make sense.
Lag doesn't always strike evenly, there can be good games and worse games. Yesterday it was quite clearly a big problem for both Trap and Zest. But of course ping is a problem for all players when it's cross server.
Im not saying its all good - im just sick of people saying its unplayable / unwinnable when that is clearly not the case. ESL has commitments to viewership and the time zone they pick has to cover multiple continents and aim for viewership. Theres never going to be an ideal.
Same for ping - its always the Koreans that are affected by ping in the eyes of people posting here, yet the EU players play with the same / worse ping as the west server is the server that gets played more as far as im aware.
My point was that this dumb complaining doesnt go anywhere and it just makes it unfun to read these threads. Were not living in a perfect world right now and we just have to deal with some of it.
People saying no tournaments ever cater to Korean players, we just had NEXT which favoured Korean prime time playing times etc. People assuming ESL just don’t care, but thats just so untrue, there are clearly reasons for it being organized the way it is.
Just frustrated we can’t enjoy the games because everyone sees some unfair advantage everywhere and that overrules anybody else playing well or having a good day
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On July 02 2021 19:57 mierin wrote:
Zest VOLUNTARILY plays the EU ESL cup for example. Korean apologists really need to chill out wrt the time zone stuff. Isn't being Korean itself a sort of advantage?
That because there is an ESL Open Cup for KR and NA regions as well. Zest doesnt have to play on EU cup but he wanted to get more money, thats his choice. Does not equate to ALL KR willing to play into late night/early morning for a global tournament, especially during the time of GSL.
Just think about it, DH Regionals finished A MONTH ago, yet the global final is pushed all the way to this moment, just to avoid clashing with NeXT and TSL, yay. But GSL and ESL dont have the same level of coordination and agreement, and the KR players suffer from that.
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Rogue still looking like he doesn't wanna get far in tournaments 
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On July 02 2021 23:19 darklycid wrote:Rogue still looking like he doesn't wanna get far in tournaments
yeah it's frustrating at times, but let's hope he can turn it around
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Rogue literally eating the map in g2
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On July 02 2021 23:30 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Rogue literally eating the map in g2
golden Armada too OP though
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OK that was not good at all lol
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On July 02 2021 23:32 AzAlexZ wrote:golden Armada too OP though
well I'd like to say that was the only reason but...
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EPT
