Still weired that there is no Serral this time around.. Hoping for Lambo to get some nice results in. He showed je s competitive againstkoreans in the Team league, so it s notcompletly out of the picture I hope
Gotta say group D is pretty interesting. TIME and Heromarine can be pretty strong at TvT and Neeb is Neeb. Tough one to predict. Group A and B are amazing too of course. And in C it'll be interesting if Innovation makes it out or not, since he's apparently slumping atm?
Yes group D is very difficult to predict. Any combination of the four is likely since Clem doesn't get to play TvZ. Should be interesting.
Gotta say that I'm disappointed that the organisers don't start the games at 3 pm instead of 4 pm. When it was possible for TSL then why not for DHM? That extra hour would have helped minimizing the disadvantage of those playing from East Asia.
We have 10 players in East Asia/Oceania, 4 in Europe, and 2 in NA (afaik).
Normally the amount of games of DH event in a day is less than TSL, so that may be why they dont have to start as early. Also to avoid viewing conflict with the GSL earlier in the day. Group D is very interesting with all the TvT with HM might send Clem to the elimination match against Neeb.
On June 29 2021 19:22 sneakyfox wrote: Yes group D is very difficult to predict. Any combination of the four is likely since Clem doesn't get to play TvZ. Should be interesting.
Gotta say that I'm disappointed that the organisers don't start the games at 3 pm instead of 4 pm. When it was possible for TSL then why not for DHM? That extra hour would have helped minimizing the disadvantage of those playing from East Asia.
We have 10 players in East Asia/Oceania, 4 in Europe, and 2 in NA (afaik).
I say just make the day start at 11 or 12. Its peak time for EU players, Neeb and Scarlett are East coast if I remember right so early but not that terrible if you make sure they don't have to play the first match of the day and it end late for Asian player, but not so late that you have to ruin your sleep schedule. (plus the staff get to have a normal day of work)
I mean it's summer and the hours will be bad for NA viewers with day jobs anyway, I can't imagine viewership would be that impacted by it. It's a bit silly seeing that group C that will be played in the middle of the night for everyone.
Anyway, appart from that little rant, I'm hype it should be an interesting tournament.
On June 29 2021 19:39 tigera6 wrote: Normally the amount of games of DH event in a day is less than TSL, so that may be why they dont have to start as early. Also to avoid viewing conflict with the GSL earlier in the day. Group D is very interesting with all the TvT with HM might send Clem to the elimination match against Neeb.
On June 29 2021 19:22 sneakyfox wrote: Yes group D is very difficult to predict. Any combination of the four is likely since Clem doesn't get to play TvZ. Should be interesting.
Gotta say that I'm disappointed that the organisers don't start the games at 3 pm instead of 4 pm. When it was possible for TSL then why not for DHM? That extra hour would have helped minimizing the disadvantage of those playing from East Asia.
We have 10 players in East Asia/Oceania, 4 in Europe, and 2 in NA (afaik).
I say just make the day start at 11 or 12. Its peak time for EU players, Neeb and Scarlett are East coast if I remember right so early but not that terrible if you make sure they don't have to play the first match of the day and it end late for Asian player, but not so late that you have to ruin your sleep schedule. (plus the staff get to have a normal day of work)
I mean it's summer and the hours will be bad for NA viewers with day jobs anyway, I can't imagine viewership would be that impacted by it. It's a bit silly seeing that group C that will be played in the middle of the night for everyone.
Anyway, appart from that little rant, I'm hype it should be an interesting tournament.
NA is a huge part of the viewership and is steady amongst the hours but does peak more toward 11am ET - 4pm ET (or like 5pm CET to 10pm CET?) even though NA would still be in "day job" time. Many many many people watch during their jobs haha. Having it start at 6am ET and potentially end at 11am ET really isn't great for viewership. Also I feel like 11 or 12CET isn't actually peak time for EU players? That'd mean getting up at like 9 or 10 to warm up and get ready. Most e-gamers are leaning more on the night owl side.
I feel like there may be some incorrect time zone assumptions in this reply so feel free to correct me on what you meant lol.
On June 29 2021 19:22 sneakyfox wrote: Yes group D is very difficult to predict. Any combination of the four is likely since Clem doesn't get to play TvZ. Should be interesting.
Gotta say that I'm disappointed that the organisers don't start the games at 3 pm instead of 4 pm. When it was possible for TSL then why not for DHM? That extra hour would have helped minimizing the disadvantage of those playing from East Asia.
We have 10 players in East Asia/Oceania, 4 in Europe, and 2 in NA (afaik).
I say just make the day start at 11 or 12. Its peak time for EU players, Neeb and Scarlett are East coast if I remember right so early but not that terrible if you make sure they don't have to play the first match of the day and it end late for Asian player, but not so late that you have to ruin your sleep schedule. (plus the staff get to have a normal day of work)
I mean it's summer and the hours will be bad for NA viewers with day jobs anyway, I can't imagine viewership would be that impacted by it. It's a bit silly seeing that group C that will be played in the middle of the night for everyone.
Anyway, appart from that little rant, I'm hype it should be an interesting tournament.
NA is a huge part of the viewership and is steady amongst the hours but does peak more toward 11am ET - 4pm ET (or like 5pm CET to 10pm CET?) even though NA would still be in "day job" time. Many many many people watch during their jobs haha. Having it start at 6am ET and potentially end at 11am ET really isn't great for viewership. Also I feel like 11 or 12CET isn't actually peak time for EU players? That'd mean getting up at like 9 or 10 to warm up and get ready. Most e-gamers are leaning more on the night owl side.
I feel like there may be some incorrect time zone assumptions in this reply so feel free to correct me on what you meant lol.
I guess there just won't be a perfect time slot for 3+ continents...we and the players have to accept that and either adjust or don't until we have offline play available again and the jetlag excuse can be used instead of the timezone excuse for players that are falling short of expectations
On June 29 2021 19:22 sneakyfox wrote: Yes group D is very difficult to predict. Any combination of the four is likely since Clem doesn't get to play TvZ. Should be interesting.
Gotta say that I'm disappointed that the organisers don't start the games at 3 pm instead of 4 pm. When it was possible for TSL then why not for DHM? That extra hour would have helped minimizing the disadvantage of those playing from East Asia.
We have 10 players in East Asia/Oceania, 4 in Europe, and 2 in NA (afaik).
I say just make the day start at 11 or 12. Its peak time for EU players, Neeb and Scarlett are East coast if I remember right so early but not that terrible if you make sure they don't have to play the first match of the day and it end late for Asian player, but not so late that you have to ruin your sleep schedule. (plus the staff get to have a normal day of work)
I mean it's summer and the hours will be bad for NA viewers with day jobs anyway, I can't imagine viewership would be that impacted by it. It's a bit silly seeing that group C that will be played in the middle of the night for everyone.
Anyway, appart from that little rant, I'm hype it should be an interesting tournament.
NA is a huge part of the viewership and is steady amongst the hours but does peak more toward 11am ET - 4pm ET (or like 5pm CET to 10pm CET?) even though NA would still be in "day job" time. Many many many people watch during their jobs haha. Having it start at 6am ET and potentially end at 11am ET really isn't great for viewership. Also I feel like 11 or 12CET isn't actually peak time for EU players? That'd mean getting up at like 9 or 10 to warm up and get ready. Most e-gamers are leaning more on the night owl side.
I feel like there may be some incorrect time zone assumptions in this reply so feel free to correct me on what you meant lol.
I think 11 or 12 is indeed bad start time for EU players, not only because probably several of them wake up at that hour, but also because even if you were to wake up at an earlier 9 or 10am, you wouldn't want to eat lunch super early so you would be forced to half ass eat in between games / series which is bad. Early afternoon allows you to wake up at more forgiving gamer time as well as eat lunch at a regular hour.
On July 01 2021 20:32 warnull wrote: Does anybody know why groups A+B, C+D are held simultaneously? Feels like a tournament of this caliber should have groups on separate days.
Normally this is a "weekend" type of event, so I assume they have to get through the groups quickly enough to finish it on-time. Also the event itself does not have a lot of prize money (and the previous IEM prizepool was NOT distributed into this one).
On July 01 2021 20:32 warnull wrote: Does anybody know why groups A+B, C+D are held simultaneously? Feels like a tournament of this caliber should have groups on separate days.
The previous Season Finals tournaments have only had one group per day so it is a bit weird. It may be related to them having the casters together in the same studio this time, maybe that's why they wanted to compress the schedule.
On July 01 2021 20:32 warnull wrote: Does anybody know why groups A+B, C+D are held simultaneously? Feels like a tournament of this caliber should have groups on separate days.
The previous Season Finals tournaments have only had one group per day so it is a bit weird. It may be related to them having the casters together in the same studio this time, maybe that's why they wanted to compress the schedule.
Also, they cant really expand the date too much to avoid clashing with GSL schedule. If Maru manage to make it all the way to the Final, he will have to play to 4am KR time, and then get up ready for the GSL group at 6pm. Yep, thats sound screwed up.
On July 01 2021 20:32 warnull wrote: Does anybody know why groups A+B, C+D are held simultaneously? Feels like a tournament of this caliber should have groups on separate days.
The previous Season Finals tournaments have only had one group per day so it is a bit weird. It may be related to them having the casters together in the same studio this time, maybe that's why they wanted to compress the schedule.
Also, they cant really expand the date too much to avoid clashing with GSL schedule. If Maru manage to make it all the way to the Final, he will have to play to 4am KR time, and then get up ready for the GSL group at 6pm. Yep, thats sound screwed up.
Playing the groups on Tuesday-Friday instead of Thursday-Friday wouldn't change that.
It is kinda amazing that Afreeca and ESL still can't coordinate their tournament schedules to avoid conflicts like this.
On July 01 2021 21:41 CynicalDeath wrote: postponed by 1 hour, starting at 17:00 CEST (both groups)
So, this will become even later for the Koreans?... That means they begin at 12 midnight? How is this remotely fair for the Koreans??
Those who can deal unfortunate timezones will have an advantage, those who're uncomfortable with it will be worse for wear. This isn't the most egregious case imo
Example : the American qualifiers for the NexT event were on possibly even worse timezones for the Americas players according to some on this forum (10pm EDT for them)
On July 01 2021 22:39 sneakyfox wrote:
Playing the groups on Tuesday-Friday instead of Thursday-Friday wouldn't change that.
It is kinda amazing that Afreeca and ESL still can't coordinate their tournament schedules to avoid conflicts like this.
Wouldn't be surprised if they just don't care about it. Like how NexT, TSL 7 and part of the regional DH events were overlapping with each other.
On July 01 2021 21:41 CynicalDeath wrote: postponed by 1 hour, starting at 17:00 CEST (both groups)
So, this will become even later for the Koreans?... That means they begin at 12 midnight? How is this remotely fair for the Koreans??
Example : the American qualifiers for the NexT event were on possibly even worse timezones for the Americas players according to some on this forum (10pm EDT for them)
How is starting at 10 pm worse than starting at midnight?
On July 01 2021 21:41 CynicalDeath wrote: postponed by 1 hour, starting at 17:00 CEST (both groups)
So, this will become even later for the Koreans?... That means they begin at 12 midnight? How is this remotely fair for the Koreans??
Example : the American qualifiers for the NexT event were on possibly even worse timezones for the Americas players according to some on this forum (10pm EDT for them)
How is starting at 10 pm worse than starting at midnight?
On April 22 2021 13:51 warnull wrote: The AM qualifiers start at 10pm EDT, which is way too late in the day for people on the east coast, like Scarlett.
On April 22 2021 12:52 tigera6 wrote: First day of AM qualifier on the way and we dont see any top AM player in it, which is kinda strange. Is it because the time of the main tournament shall be in 6-7pm local time, which is too early for AM player in general, so they might want to skip this one?
Apparently, according to these posts (and maybe others), the starting time was off to the point that many skipped it - how Koreans will deal with starting to play at midnight might be different than Americas players starting at 10 pm
Playing the groups on Tuesday-Friday instead of Thursday-Friday wouldn't change that.
It is kinda amazing that Afreeca and ESL still can't coordinate their tournament schedules to avoid conflicts like this.
Wouldn't be surprised if they just don't care about it. Like how NexT, TSL 7 and part of the regional DH events were overlapping with each other.
Except it WASNT, I think ESL made sure that NeXT and TSL wasnt clashing with their own DH Regional schedule. Those 2 tournament started AFTER the all DH Regional were done. Only GSL got the screw up with the Qualifer, Code A and now Code S.
Playing the groups on Tuesday-Friday instead of Thursday-Friday wouldn't change that.
It is kinda amazing that Afreeca and ESL still can't coordinate their tournament schedules to avoid conflicts like this.
Wouldn't be surprised if they just don't care about it. Like how NexT, TSL 7 and part of the regional DH events were overlapping with each other.
Except it WASNT, I think ESL made sure that NeXT and TSL wasnt clashing with their own DH Regional schedule. Those 2 tournament started AFTER the all DH Regional were done. Only GSL got the screw up with the Qualifer, Code A and now Code S.
Point taken for the DH regional events after re-checking - it still is close though. NexT starting barely the day after DH NA and EU finished, and TSL7 starting one week later (better margin there). Still the point of DH Season Finals with GSL, especially after reading on Liquipedia that ESL co-organizes Code S with AfreecaTV ...
The problem is that GSL runs so many weeks that you pretty much always will at least have some groups during the week. GSL studio is most likely used for other events too so moving GSL days around can cause more problems for Afreeca. This probably prevents running GSL just in 2-3 weeks as they can't book the studio for weeks in row. Also GSL matches start at 18.30 KST because that is best time for Korean audience and viewers. ESL can't really run their matches before that because it would be before 9.30 UTC, which would be early for Europe and late for Americas. Those times would also be really bad for viewers.
On July 01 2021 23:59 Waxangel wrote: I saw like 21 to 1 odds for Probe on a betting site yesterday (also basically equal to the implied odds on Aligulac.com)
that's the craziest odds I ever saw for a BO3
I woulda splashed $5 if it was legal here
That's one way to make what seems like a foregone conclusion a bit exciting. DH finals always has very predictable groups.
On July 02 2021 01:06 sneakyfox wrote: So Zest-Dark on Beckett was insane, Trap-Reynor on Beckett was also crazy in its own way, how will Zest-Reynor be??
On July 02 2021 01:21 Morbidius wrote: Zest was right when he said his Skytoss is bettter than Trap's.
Trap looked somewhat lost with maxed air armies in the extreme lategame vs Solar in the final of NeXT. He still managed to win the game by outmining his opponent, but it's clearly a weak point for him.
On July 02 2021 03:03 buzz_bender wrote: For some reason, Trap just doesn't perform in major tournaments. Could be a mental thing? Or that people strategize against his playstyle?
Like I said, Trap is not great in doing the double Stargate opening, and how to defend it against Roach-Queen walk. I think he lost 2 games today against that very same thing.
On July 02 2021 03:03 TheLordofAwesome wrote: How did Scarlett beat Trap lol?
one game trap did some light adept pressure with early 3rd, scarlett made units and killed him, the other game queen walk on jaga which killed the nat only to finish him off a bit later
On July 02 2021 03:05 tigera6 wrote: Like I said, Trap is not great in doing the double Stargate opening, and how to defend it against Roach-Queen walk. I think he lost 2 games today against that very same thing.
He should stick to his blink/robo bay shenanigans.
On July 02 2021 03:05 tigera6 wrote: Like I said, Trap is not great in doing the double Stargate opening, and how to defend it against Roach-Queen walk. I think he lost 2 games today against that very same thing.
He should stick to his blink/robo bay shenanigans.
The last time he defended queen walk from Reynor, he got disruptors or DT right before the attack. I am not sure why he did not prepare them beforehand since he got the vision and can predict that wave of attack.
On July 02 2021 03:05 tigera6 wrote: Like I said, Trap is not great in doing the double Stargate opening, and how to defend it against Roach-Queen walk. I think he lost 2 games today against that very same thing.
He should stick to his blink/robo bay shenanigans.
The last time he defended queen walk from Reynor, he got disruptors or DT right before the attack. I am not sure why he did not prepare them beforehand since he got the vision and can predict that wave of attack.
I dont think you have enough Gas to go for DT tech, Disruptor tech and 6-7 Voidray before the Zerg hit though, but I might be wrong.
Trap is doing great in single or double elimination tournament, but hes not doing as well in the group stage of other tournament. He didnt do that well in the group stage of Last Chance IIRC, and HM actually pushed him down to the elimination match against Elazer in NeXT which he was struggling to win that match. Then there is the stinker with IEM and this.
Surprised by how well Scarlett did, although she did it in exactly the way one would suspect.
Not happy about the upcoming rematch though. We all know this is cursed so Zest is leaving us, which will make the tournament significantly less entertaining. Would have been more fun with a Maru-Reynor showdown.
On July 02 2021 04:26 [PkF] Wire wrote: that was a dejected gg, Zest should have least have tried to engage
too much lag I guess
Can't wait for CS:GO returning to LAN next week. Hopefully we get LAN for SC2 soon too. Maru vs Zest and of course, GSL, gives us a glimpse of how exciting games can be when played on LAN.
On July 02 2021 06:09 DiMano wrote: Trap got critical damage from biles due to lagging. It enrages me that he was eliminated by it, it is just not fair.
Do you know what the ping is from KR to NA West and NA Central/East? Are spikes noticeably more common on the east server?
On July 02 2021 06:09 DiMano wrote: Trap got critical damage from biles due to lagging. It enrages me that he was eliminated by it, it is just not fair.
Do you know what the ping is from KR to NA West and NA Central/East? Are spikes noticeably more common on the east server?
From what I remember watching Polt play, it was like 200ms or more. Only reason he kept on playing the KR server was because NA ladder was too easy for him.
But hard to take the competition seriously with the Koreans (once again) being wrecked harder by cross-server lag and time-zone disadvantage.
Here's a suggestion - can matches in the same group be played simultaneously (e.g. winner vs winner and loser v loser) to minimise the wait time and avoid matches being dragged out till 4-5am Korean time? I suppose the drawback is reduced viewership and stretched casting resources.
On July 02 2021 13:59 RKC wrote: Great production and casting, kudos to Scarlett.
But hard to take the competition seriously with the Koreans (once again) being wrecked harder by cross-server lag and time-zone disadvantage.
Here's a suggestion - can matches in the same group be played simultaneously (e.g. winner vs winner and loser v loser) to minimise the wait time and avoid matches being dragged out till 4-5am Korean time? I suppose the drawback is reduced viewership and stretched casting resources.
I guess if two groups can be played simultaneously, why not two games in the same group? If there were still one day per group, the initial two matches as well as winners+losers could be played at the same time.
But at the very least they could go back to a 3 pm start, as was the case last time. Yesterday was obviously even worse due to the unintended delay.
On July 02 2021 13:59 RKC wrote: Great production and casting, kudos to Scarlett.
But hard to take the competition seriously with the Koreans (once again) being wrecked harder by cross-server lag and time-zone disadvantage.
Here's a suggestion - can matches in the same group be played simultaneously (e.g. winner vs winner and loser v loser) to minimise the wait time and avoid matches being dragged out till 4-5am Korean time? I suppose the drawback is reduced viewership and stretched casting resources.
Trap just won TSL7 in the same / worse conditions (went even later into the night) so while I don’t disagree the time zone has an affect we should maybe realize it does ‘t just make them auto lose.
Then we are complaining about ping when half of maps are favoured for the koreans with ping and other half favour eu with a difference of 30-40, also doesn’t make sense.
On July 02 2021 13:59 RKC wrote: Great production and casting, kudos to Scarlett.
But hard to take the competition seriously with the Koreans (once again) being wrecked harder by cross-server lag and time-zone disadvantage.
Here's a suggestion - can matches in the same group be played simultaneously (e.g. winner vs winner and loser v loser) to minimise the wait time and avoid matches being dragged out till 4-5am Korean time? I suppose the drawback is reduced viewership and stretched casting resources.
Trap just won TSL7 in the same / worse conditions (went even later into the night) so while I don’t disagree the time zone has an affect we should maybe realize it does ‘t just make them auto lose.
That's an odd reply. So if it doesn't make Koreans auto lose but only gives them a disadvantage, it's all good? Should equal playing conditions not be required?
It was so refreshing that the TSL7 organisers openly acknowledged that there is a problem with the time zone difference, which is honestly so damn obvious that it's hard not to. Yet from ESL all we hear (if we hear anything) is that it's not really a problem, look Koreans are still winning some games, etc. (And then sometimes the at least honest point that it's just a business decision).
Then we are complaining about ping when half of maps are favoured for the koreans with ping and other half favour eu with a difference of 30-40, also doesn’t make sense.
Lag doesn't always strike evenly, there can be good games and worse games. Yesterday it was quite clearly a big problem for both Trap and Zest. But of course ping is a problem for all players when it's cross server.
On July 02 2021 17:35 sneakyfox wrote: That's an odd reply. So if it doesn't make Koreans auto lose but only gives them a disadvantage, it's all good? Should equal playing conditions not be required?
Lag sucks, timezone difference sucks - we all know it but what can you do?
One can only play to the best of ones abilities until international offline play comes back
On July 02 2021 17:35 sneakyfox wrote: That's an odd reply. So if it doesn't make Koreans auto lose but only gives them a disadvantage, it's all good? Should equal playing conditions not be required?
Lag sucks, timezone difference sucks - we all know it but what can you do?
One can only play to the best of ones abilities until international offline play comes back
If you're the organiser then you can schedule matches earlier or later in the day, which will then result in decreasing or increasing the disadvantage of players in east Asia.
On July 02 2021 17:35 sneakyfox wrote: That's an odd reply. So if it doesn't make Koreans auto lose but only gives them a disadvantage, it's all good? Should equal playing conditions not be required?
Lag sucks, timezone difference sucks - we all know it but what can you do?
Which I think everyone agrees. But what's been grinding our gears is that it is *always* the Koreans who have had to fight through these disadvantages. Wardi mentioned that Trap won TSL7, but that's despite the disadvantages of lag and timezone. I have not seen one major tournament (especially the Season Finals, when there's so much at stake) been organised to minimise any sort of disadvantages for the Koreans. The only one that I know of is the King of Battles, which started way earlier to help the Koreans. From time to time, I agree that there's nothing we can do about it. But at the very least, can we not organise it in such a way that the players "take turns" in fighting through the disadvantages, like the server choices?
It just annoys, saddens, and angers me at times that no one in ESL seems to care about the Koreans at all. Even the prizepool that was taken from Katowice this year has not been distributed to tournaments that the Koreans are eligible for. It's all given to the foreigners. That's just blatantly unfair. So many of ESL's decisions since they have taken over have not been favourable to the Koreans at all. In fact, I can't think of one...
On July 02 2021 17:35 sneakyfox wrote: That's an odd reply. So if it doesn't make Koreans auto lose but only gives them a disadvantage, it's all good? Should equal playing conditions not be required?
Lag sucks, timezone difference sucks - we all know it but what can you do?
One can only play to the best of ones abilities until international offline play comes back
If you're the organiser then you can schedule matches earlier or later in the day, which will then result in decreasing or increasing the disadvantage of players in east Asia.
As for lag, yeah that's just the way it is.
Yeah, the time zone problem can definitely be addressed if wanted to. Seriously, all people who think playing from 2-6am in the morning is not big of a deal, go and try it yourself for like 1 week or 1 month to see how worse your results compared to normal condition.
On July 02 2021 17:35 sneakyfox wrote: That's an odd reply. So if it doesn't make Koreans auto lose but only gives them a disadvantage, it's all good? Should equal playing conditions not be required?
Lag sucks, timezone difference sucks - we all know it but what can you do?
One can only play to the best of ones abilities until international offline play comes back
If you're the organiser then you can schedule matches earlier or later in the day, which will then result in decreasing or increasing the disadvantage of players in east Asia.
As for lag, yeah that's just the way it is.
Yeah, the time zone problem can definitely be addressed if wanted to. Seriously, all people who think playing from 2-6am in the morning is not big of a deal, go and try it yourself for like 1 week or 1 month to see how worse your results compared to normal condition.
Yeah I have a dayjob, so no thank you. But when I was a student I did that all the time and I was better at night
On July 02 2021 18:39 buzz_bender wrote: It just annoys, saddens, and angers me at times that no one in ESL seems to care about the Koreans at all. Even the prizepool that was taken from Katowice this year has not been distributed to tournaments that the Koreans are eligible for. It's all given to the foreigners. That's just blatantly unfair. So many of ESL's decisions since they have taken over have not been favourable to the Koreans at all. In fact, I can't think of one...
They changed the ESL Open schedule for Koreans and upped the prize pool for all.
The rest of the prize pool money, no idea. Was it spread? And where?
On July 02 2021 18:39 buzz_bender wrote: It just annoys, saddens, and angers me at times that no one in ESL seems to care about the Koreans at all. Even the prizepool that was taken from Katowice this year has not been distributed to tournaments that the Koreans are eligible for. It's all given to the foreigners. That's just blatantly unfair. So many of ESL's decisions since they have taken over have not been favourable to the Koreans at all. In fact, I can't think of one...
They changed the ESL Open schedule for Koreans and upped the prize pool for all.
The rest of the prize pool money, no idea. Was it spread? And where?
On July 02 2021 13:59 RKC wrote: Great production and casting, kudos to Scarlett.
But hard to take the competition seriously with the Koreans (once again) being wrecked harder by cross-server lag and time-zone disadvantage.
Here's a suggestion - can matches in the same group be played simultaneously (e.g. winner vs winner and loser v loser) to minimise the wait time and avoid matches being dragged out till 4-5am Korean time? I suppose the drawback is reduced viewership and stretched casting resources.
Trap just won TSL7 in the same / worse conditions (went even later into the night) so while I don’t disagree the time zone has an affect we should maybe realize it does ‘t just make them auto lose.
Then we are complaining about ping when half of maps are favoured for the koreans with ping and other half favour eu with a difference of 30-40, also doesn’t make sense.
Thanks for the response!
Generally, in any game or sport, poorer playing conditions is more punishing on the more skillful player or team. Because their ability to hit their peak performance is diminished, and the element of luck increases.
Here's some analogies. Imagine Spain playing football on a soggy pitch under a thunderstorm. Or Magnus Carlsen playing super 5-minute blitz chess variant with no queens.
Anyway, you guys are the host, and business is business. If you believe the current format guarantees top quality SC2 games and top viewership, so be it...
Incidentally, there's Euros and an online chess tourney featuring both Spain and Magnus later at the same time with DH. No doubt in my mind which I'll be tuning in later...
On July 02 2021 17:35 sneakyfox wrote: That's an odd reply. So if it doesn't make Koreans auto lose but only gives them a disadvantage, it's all good? Should equal playing conditions not be required?
Lag sucks, timezone difference sucks - we all know it but what can you do?
Which I think everyone agrees. But what's been grinding our gears is that it is *always* the Koreans who have had to fight through these disadvantages. Wardi mentioned that Trap won TSL7, but that's despite the disadvantages of lag and timezone. I have not seen one major tournament (especially the Season Finals, when there's so much at stake) been organised to minimise any sort of disadvantages for the Koreans. The only one that I know of is the King of Battles, which started way earlier to help the Koreans. From time to time, I agree that there's nothing we can do about it. But at the very least, can we not organise it in such a way that the players "take turns" in fighting through the disadvantages, like the server choices?
It just annoys, saddens, and angers me at times that no one in ESL seems to care about the Koreans at all. Even the prizepool that was taken from Katowice this year has not been distributed to tournaments that the Koreans are eligible for. It's all given to the foreigners. That's just blatantly unfair. So many of ESL's decisions since they have taken over have not been favourable to the Koreans at all. In fact, I can't think of one...
Well they are doing season finals and esl cup in Asia giving out thousands of dollar to the Korean player, considering before them the norm was to ban Korean from every event except GSL I'd say that's a pretty good bonus.
And you know, of course, I would like the condition to be better across the board, at the end of the day ESL is not running a charity and does not have any responsability toward Korean or any player (saddly maybe) so it does make sense they organise their event to have the most viewers.
Also the WTL is definitly an event that favored the Korean (well Chinese) time zone, and I don't particularly feel confident to go tell the chinese they need to change their schedule because it's start at a terrible hour for the NA team. At the end of the day their tournament is mostly for chinese spectators. (like ESL is mostly for EU and NA spectators)
By the way: Apparently I won 50$ on the TL Store because of the TSL 7 TLO predictions, and don't think I will use it. If anyone wants it PM me, first one first serve
Zest VOLUNTARILY plays the EU ESL cup for example. Korean apologists really need to chill out wrt the time zone stuff. Isn't being Korean itself a sort of advantage?
By the way: Apparently I won 50$ on the TL Store because of the TSL 7 TLO predictions, and don't think I will use it. If anyone wants it PM me, first one first serve
Gratz! I won some Liquid + poynts but I have no idea what to do with that ^^
If GSL is happening during the day, it start at 18.30 KST / 9.30 UTC / 11.30 CEST and last about 4 hours. Running event before GSL isn't really option for other time zones. In addition you want to give players time to move around, eat, etc. before starting next event so you add something like 2 hours between events. So start time for this could be around 0.30 KST / 15.30 UTC / 17.30 CEST. Earlier times could be possible but they could easily run to problems with running same time with GSL.
You could also change the days so that earlier times are possible as GSL isn't happening but you need to remember that amount viewers is important for organizers. GSL start at 18.30 KST to get the best audience and viewership. You also probably want same schedule for every day. Changing either GSL days or ESL days can run to many problems. For example I'm pretty sure that GSL studio is used by other events on other days and moving those around can be really hard.
There is also possibility of just avoiding the GSL all together, but it last 7 weeks plus qualifiers. This would limit when the tournament can happen way too much. Also you most likely want run tournament every 2-3 months and you probably don't want to skip summer months in your event schedule when most of your viewers are from northern hemisphere.
By the way: Apparently I won 50$ on the TL Store because of the TSL 7 TLO predictions, and don't think I will use it. If anyone wants it PM me, first one first serve
Gratz! I won some Liquid + poynts but I have no idea what to do with that ^^
IDK either, I mean if it was precious TL+ point giving me access to a select, member only, forum then I would have jumped on it. (Does TL+ still exist btw?)
On July 02 2021 19:57 mierin wrote: Zest VOLUNTARILY plays the EU ESL cup for example. Korean apologists really need to chill out wrt the time zone stuff. Isn't being Korean itself a sort of advantage?
On July 02 2021 13:59 RKC wrote: Great production and casting, kudos to Scarlett.
But hard to take the competition seriously with the Koreans (once again) being wrecked harder by cross-server lag and time-zone disadvantage.
Here's a suggestion - can matches in the same group be played simultaneously (e.g. winner vs winner and loser v loser) to minimise the wait time and avoid matches being dragged out till 4-5am Korean time? I suppose the drawback is reduced viewership and stretched casting resources.
Trap just won TSL7 in the same / worse conditions (went even later into the night) so while I don’t disagree the time zone has an affect we should maybe realize it does ‘t just make them auto lose.
That's an odd reply. So if it doesn't make Koreans auto lose but only gives them a disadvantage, it's all good? Should equal playing conditions not be required?
It was so refreshing that the TSL7 organisers openly acknowledged that there is a problem with the time zone difference, which is honestly so damn obvious that it's hard not to. Yet from ESL all we hear (if we hear anything) is that it's not really a problem, look Koreans are still winning some games, etc. (And then sometimes the at least honest point that it's just a business decision).
Then we are complaining about ping when half of maps are favoured for the koreans with ping and other half favour eu with a difference of 30-40, also doesn’t make sense.
Lag doesn't always strike evenly, there can be good games and worse games. Yesterday it was quite clearly a big problem for both Trap and Zest. But of course ping is a problem for all players when it's cross server.
Im not saying its all good - im just sick of people saying its unplayable / unwinnable when that is clearly not the case. ESL has commitments to viewership and the time zone they pick has to cover multiple continents and aim for viewership. Theres never going to be an ideal.
Same for ping - its always the Koreans that are affected by ping in the eyes of people posting here, yet the EU players play with the same / worse ping as the west server is the server that gets played more as far as im aware.
My point was that this dumb complaining doesnt go anywhere and it just makes it unfun to read these threads. Were not living in a perfect world right now and we just have to deal with some of it.
People saying no tournaments ever cater to Korean players, we just had NEXT which favoured Korean prime time playing times etc. People assuming ESL just don’t care, but thats just so untrue, there are clearly reasons for it being organized the way it is.
Just frustrated we can’t enjoy the games because everyone sees some unfair advantage everywhere and that overrules anybody else playing well or having a good day
On July 02 2021 19:57 mierin wrote: Zest VOLUNTARILY plays the EU ESL cup for example. Korean apologists really need to chill out wrt the time zone stuff. Isn't being Korean itself a sort of advantage?
That because there is an ESL Open Cup for KR and NA regions as well. Zest doesnt have to play on EU cup but he wanted to get more money, thats his choice. Does not equate to ALL KR willing to play into late night/early morning for a global tournament, especially during the time of GSL. Just think about it, DH Regionals finished A MONTH ago, yet the global final is pushed all the way to this moment, just to avoid clashing with NeXT and TSL, yay. But GSL and ESL dont have the same level of coordination and agreement, and the KR players suffer from that.
HM taking one game of Clem is not that surprising but Nice beating Rogue... Well the latter can be pretty inconsistent but that's quite a upset nonetheless.
On July 02 2021 13:59 RKC wrote: Great production and casting, kudos to Scarlett.
But hard to take the competition seriously with the Koreans (once again) being wrecked harder by cross-server lag and time-zone disadvantage.
Here's a suggestion - can matches in the same group be played simultaneously (e.g. winner vs winner and loser v loser) to minimise the wait time and avoid matches being dragged out till 4-5am Korean time? I suppose the drawback is reduced viewership and stretched casting resources.
Trap just won TSL7 in the same / worse conditions (went even later into the night) so while I don’t disagree the time zone has an affect we should maybe realize it does ‘t just make them auto lose.
That's an odd reply. So if it doesn't make Koreans auto lose but only gives them a disadvantage, it's all good? Should equal playing conditions not be required?
It was so refreshing that the TSL7 organisers openly acknowledged that there is a problem with the time zone difference, which is honestly so damn obvious that it's hard not to. Yet from ESL all we hear (if we hear anything) is that it's not really a problem, look Koreans are still winning some games, etc. (And then sometimes the at least honest point that it's just a business decision).
Then we are complaining about ping when half of maps are favoured for the koreans with ping and other half favour eu with a difference of 30-40, also doesn’t make sense.
Lag doesn't always strike evenly, there can be good games and worse games. Yesterday it was quite clearly a big problem for both Trap and Zest. But of course ping is a problem for all players when it's cross server.
Im not saying its all good - im just sick of people saying its unplayable / unwinnable when that is clearly not the case. ESL has commitments to viewership and the time zone they pick has to cover multiple continents and aim for viewership. Theres never going to be an ideal.
Same for ping - its always the Koreans that are affected by ping in the eyes of people posting here, yet the EU players play with the same / worse ping as the west server is the server that gets played more as far as im aware.
My point was that this dumb complaining doesnt go anywhere and it just makes it unfun to read these threads. Were not living in a perfect world right now and we just have to deal with some of it.
People saying no tournaments ever cater to Korean players, we just had NEXT which favoured Korean prime time playing times etc. People assuming ESL just don’t care, but thats just so untrue, there are clearly reasons for it being organized the way it is.
Just frustrated we can’t enjoy the games because everyone sees some unfair advantage everywhere and that overrules anybody else playing well or having a good day
I feel like again you are neglecting that there fundamentally is a problem.
"ESL has commitment to viewerships" - ok, fair enough, but shouldn't they also have a commitment to ensure equal playing conditions for the participants? I agree that there is no ideal solution but that doesn't mean there isn't a better solution under the circumstances. In particular I have trouble understanding why it was acceptable regarding viewership to start the previous three events (Katewice, Last Chance, DHM Winter) at 3 pm, but now it cannot start before 4 pm? ESL has decided to make it one hour worse for East Asian-based players (not just the Koreans, we're talking about 10/16 players in this tournament). I don't know what that tells you but to me it does not seem like taking the time zone issue seriously. So when you write that "there are clearly reasons for it being organized the way it is" I have to say that those reasons are poorly communicated. ESL taking the whole thing seriously, if that is indeed the case, is also poorly communicated. Did a miss a statement from ESL?
And then you write that this complaining is "dumb" and that it is the complaining that ruins the viewing experience. I do agree that it can get out of hand and then itself become a problem, but I think you have to start by acknowledging that having unequal playing conditions is a problem in a professional sport! If you want people to stop pointing that out again and again you (ESL) need to begin by acknowledging that. It seems all we get is someone dropping in once in a while to say "that's just the way it is" and "stop complaining", or even saying that people's comments are worse that the time zone problem itself.
ESL could perhaps learn a thing or two from the TSL organisers. Here's their statement:
Time zones are always a tricky thing to navigate for online tournaments that span multiple continents, and I hate that we have to choose between remotely playable times for Korea and viewership in the Americas- and let’s be honest here, it’s not reasonable to ask a player to play multiple Bo7s starting at 2 AM. This is something we’ll have to continue looking into for the best possible options, but in my mind it boils down to a handful of options:
Do what we did this time, and risk missing out on significant English-language viewership from the Americas (and risk unreasonable times for some of our players) Cast some/potentially many games off replays, to align with audiences (and risk viewers and fans being frustrated at it not being live) Have a live event (this increases our event costs by a LOT)
I think each of these solutions has a time and place where they make sense. It’s something for us to think about moving forward.
Reading that I was happy to see that the problem is taken seriously, and that the organisers are trying to think of solutions. I for one do not have that impression from ESL.
On July 02 2021 23:39 sneakyfox wrote: Reading that I was happy to see that the problem is taken seriously, and that the organizers are trying to think of solutions. I for one do not have that impression from ESL.
Just look at how ESL handles CS:GO and you'll know exactly what their stance is. Revenue and money comes before the players. It's nice having a monopoly in the e-sports scene. Unfortunately the SC2 community just sucks it up.
On July 02 2021 13:59 RKC wrote: Great production and casting, kudos to Scarlett.
But hard to take the competition seriously with the Koreans (once again) being wrecked harder by cross-server lag and time-zone disadvantage.
Here's a suggestion - can matches in the same group be played simultaneously (e.g. winner vs winner and loser v loser) to minimise the wait time and avoid matches being dragged out till 4-5am Korean time? I suppose the drawback is reduced viewership and stretched casting resources.
Trap just won TSL7 in the same / worse conditions (went even later into the night) so while I don’t disagree the time zone has an affect we should maybe realize it does ‘t just make them auto lose.
Then we are complaining about ping when half of maps are favoured for the koreans with ping and other half favour eu with a difference of 30-40, also doesn’t make sense.
Have a source on the ping? I live in California and if I ping western Europe and Korea from my connection it's basically equal. Logically that means if an EU player and a KR player are playing on the LA server it should be basically equal. Meanwhile based on 3rd party websites like wondernetwork ping to east coast is only like 100 for EU and 200 for KR.
On July 02 2021 13:59 RKC wrote: Great production and casting, kudos to Scarlett.
But hard to take the competition seriously with the Koreans (once again) being wrecked harder by cross-server lag and time-zone disadvantage.
Here's a suggestion - can matches in the same group be played simultaneously (e.g. winner vs winner and loser v loser) to minimise the wait time and avoid matches being dragged out till 4-5am Korean time? I suppose the drawback is reduced viewership and stretched casting resources.
Trap just won TSL7 in the same / worse conditions (went even later into the night) so while I don’t disagree the time zone has an affect we should maybe realize it does ‘t just make them auto lose.
Then we are complaining about ping when half of maps are favoured for the koreans with ping and other half favour eu with a difference of 30-40, also doesn’t make sense.
Have a source on the ping? I live in California and if I ping western Europe and Korea from my connection it's basically equal. Logically that means if an EU player and a KR player are playing on the LA server it should be basically equal. Meanwhile based on 3rd party websites like wondernetwork ping to east coast is only like 100 for EU and 200 for KR.
We have heard those ping numbers several times from players and casters alike. They say NA West is slightly Korea-favoured, and NA Central slightly EU favoured. It's all in the 150-200 range iirc.
People probably should listen what Heyoka, the Lead Product Manager of ESL SC2, said about running esports events on Pylon Show last week. It gave perspective how much it can be about the spreadsheet stuff and not making the most innovative content and best formats.
On July 02 2021 13:59 RKC wrote: Great production and casting, kudos to Scarlett.
But hard to take the competition seriously with the Koreans (once again) being wrecked harder by cross-server lag and time-zone disadvantage.
Here's a suggestion - can matches in the same group be played simultaneously (e.g. winner vs winner and loser v loser) to minimise the wait time and avoid matches being dragged out till 4-5am Korean time? I suppose the drawback is reduced viewership and stretched casting resources.
Trap just won TSL7 in the same / worse conditions (went even later into the night) so while I don’t disagree the time zone has an affect we should maybe realize it does ‘t just make them auto lose.
Then we are complaining about ping when half of maps are favoured for the koreans with ping and other half favour eu with a difference of 30-40, also doesn’t make sense.
Have a source on the ping? I live in California and if I ping western Europe and Korea from my connection it's basically equal. Logically that means if an EU player and a KR player are playing on the LA server it should be basically equal. Meanwhile based on 3rd party websites like wondernetwork ping to east coast is only like 100 for EU and 200 for KR.
We have heard those ping numbers several times from players and casters alike. They say NA West is slightly Korea-favoured, and NA Central slightly EU favoured. It's all in the 150-200 range iirc.
I wish some player would just release actual exact numbers. I just don't see how it's possible players in France/Germany/Italy are having 150+ ping to Chicago and 200+ to LA when everything I can find online and my own personal pinging says that should be 100ish and 140ish respectively for this servers. Especially when the sources I'm finding from KR to US are agree with your numbers but apparently the EU to US ones don't. Feels like TOs just don't want to acknowledge it actually would be more fair for Western EU countries vs Korea to be on NA West
Innovation has been on the offensive the entire time, and Special played decent defense for a while, but just couldn't ever take control of the game. Innovation just too strong.
On June 29 2021 19:39 tigera6 wrote: Normally the amount of games of DH event in a day is less than TSL, so that may be why they dont have to start as early. Also to avoid viewing conflict with the GSL earlier in the day. Group D is very interesting with all the TvT with HM might send Clem to the elimination match against Neeb.
On June 29 2021 19:39 tigera6 wrote: Normally the amount of games of DH event in a day is less than TSL, so that may be why they dont have to start as early. Also to avoid viewing conflict with the GSL earlier in the day. Group D is very interesting with all the TvT with HM might send Clem to the elimination match against Neeb.
lol no way Neeb loses to Time
lol I stand corrected
TIME has a rough 2020 year but he seems back in shape, he did good in TSL.
On July 03 2021 00:26 [PkF] Wire wrote: has any series today not been an upset ?
OK usually that kind of days somehow normalizes, so I expect the outcomes of the groups to remain reasonable (like Rogue - INno and Clem - TIME/HM), but this has been an eventful start !
On June 29 2021 19:39 tigera6 wrote: Normally the amount of games of DH event in a day is less than TSL, so that may be why they dont have to start as early. Also to avoid viewing conflict with the GSL earlier in the day. Group D is very interesting with all the TvT with HM might send Clem to the elimination match against Neeb.
lol no way Neeb loses to Time
lol I stand corrected
TIME has a rough 2020 year but he seems back in shape, he did good in TSL.
Time is like a "gatekeeper" similar to HM in EU. He beat a lot of good players, but will lose against top tier guys. Btw, we gonna have 3 Terran coming out in 1st place of the groups, and potentially 4. Terran now cant balance-whine any longer.
On June 29 2021 19:39 tigera6 wrote: Normally the amount of games of DH event in a day is less than TSL, so that may be why they dont have to start as early. Also to avoid viewing conflict with the GSL earlier in the day. Group D is very interesting with all the TvT with HM might send Clem to the elimination match against Neeb.
lol no way Neeb loses to Time
lol I stand corrected
TIME has a rough 2020 year but he seems back in shape, he did good in TSL.
On July 03 2021 00:26 [PkF] Wire wrote: has any series today not been an upset ?
Inno vs Special's result seems normal to me.
yeah but with INno's form and Clem's status nowadays you could argue those are still somehow surprising results. But otherwise agree, those are definitely not as upsetting as the other ones
On July 03 2021 00:26 [PkF] Wire wrote: has any series today not been an upset ?
I think even with Innovation being super inconsistent, Innovation winning against Special wasn't an upset. Maybe it was upsetting for fans of Special, but I don't think Special is better than Innovation.
Man, the breaks are not funny. Instead of paying for the flights of the casters, they should've paid some players to produce some side content like in the SAHSC.
On July 03 2021 00:26 [PkF] Wire wrote: has any series today not been an upset ?
I think even with Innovation being super inconsistent, Innovation winning against Special wasn't an upset. Maybe it was upsetting for fans of Special, but I don't think Special is better than Innovation.
Inno is one of the rare enigmatic players whose result in a particular match will always be an 'upset' in the eyes of different people regardless of whether he wins or loses. Quite a feat.
On July 03 2021 00:35 JustPassingBy wrote: Man, the breaks are not funny. Instead of paying for the flights of the casters, they should've paid some players to produce some side content like in the SAHSC.
Wait, what? The casters are flown in just to be in a studio? Why can't they cast from their bedrooms?
On July 03 2021 00:35 JustPassingBy wrote: Man, the breaks are not funny. Instead of paying for the flights of the casters, they should've paid some players to produce some side content like in the SAHSC.
Wait, what? The casters are flown in just to be in a studio? Why can't they cast from their bedrooms?
Because casting together in a studio makes a huge difference. The energy levels, synergy, production value etc, all have been a step up since the start of offline casting.
On July 03 2021 00:35 JustPassingBy wrote: Man, the breaks are not funny. Instead of paying for the flights of the casters, they should've paid some players to produce some side content like in the SAHSC.
Wait, what? The casters are flown in just to be in a studio? Why can't they cast from their bedrooms?
Because casting together in a studio makes a huge difference. The energy levels, synergy, production value etc, all have been a step up since the start of offline casting.
On July 03 2021 00:35 JustPassingBy wrote: Man, the breaks are not funny. Instead of paying for the flights of the casters, they should've paid some players to produce some side content like in the SAHSC.
Breaks are easily the biggest weakness of SC2 esports tournament enjoyment. It's unfortunate but there's only so much they can do. Doesn't help that games often take less time than the breaks.
If the TLMC finalist are already known and ready, they could show case the future maps during these breaks. It would really show the ESLs involvement in the map selection process.
On July 03 2021 00:35 JustPassingBy wrote: Man, the breaks are not funny. Instead of paying for the flights of the casters, they should've paid some players to produce some side content like in the SAHSC.
Wait, what? The casters are flown in just to be in a studio? Why can't they cast from their bedrooms?
Because casting together in a studio makes a huge difference. The energy levels, synergy, production value etc, all have been a step up since the start of offline casting.
Shorter breaks would also make a huge difference
Breaks are this long when it's all-online too, so I imagine it's because of their ad-time goals or something like that
On July 03 2021 01:14 Nakajin wrote: I just watched the result, how did Rogue lost to Nice?
Queen walk against a toss who doesn't 2sg. Rogue was pushed back which put nice in a good position. And a lack of AA by Rogue against a 200 pop skytoss (+he produced way too many roachs who did nothing during the mid game)
On July 02 2021 13:59 RKC wrote: Great production and casting, kudos to Scarlett.
But hard to take the competition seriously with the Koreans (once again) being wrecked harder by cross-server lag and time-zone disadvantage.
Here's a suggestion - can matches in the same group be played simultaneously (e.g. winner vs winner and loser v loser) to minimise the wait time and avoid matches being dragged out till 4-5am Korean time? I suppose the drawback is reduced viewership and stretched casting resources.
Trap just won TSL7 in the same / worse conditions (went even later into the night) so while I don’t disagree the time zone has an affect we should maybe realize it does ‘t just make them auto lose.
Then we are complaining about ping when half of maps are favoured for the koreans with ping and other half favour eu with a difference of 30-40, also doesn’t make sense.
Have a source on the ping? I live in California and if I ping western Europe and Korea from my connection it's basically equal. Logically that means if an EU player and a KR player are playing on the LA server it should be basically equal. Meanwhile based on 3rd party websites like wondernetwork ping to east coast is only like 100 for EU and 200 for KR.
We have heard those ping numbers several times from players and casters alike. They say NA West is slightly Korea-favoured, and NA Central slightly EU favoured. It's all in the 150-200 range iirc.
I wish some player would just release actual exact numbers. I just don't see how it's possible players in France/Germany/Italy are having 150+ ping to Chicago and 200+ to LA when everything I can find online and my own personal pinging says that should be 100ish and 140ish respectively for this servers. Especially when the sources I'm finding from KR to US are agree with your numbers but apparently the EU to US ones don't. Feels like TOs just don't want to acknowledge it actually would be more fair for Western EU countries vs Korea to be on NA West
Honestly those numbers have been out several times, but I can't point to a specific place. But you can't automatically conclude that SC2 ping and ping for other stuff is the same.
It's very easy to test, now SC2 shows ping when in the lobby. You just need a person based in KR and another based in EU, and you can see it right away.
EU getting reminded of how was the world without Serral.
On the other side, I hope Clem can get his mojo back, I don't like seeing him like that. Just keep your head down and keep practicing Clément, good things will come back to you!
On July 03 2021 02:15 Pandain wrote: Other than reynor and maru we are going to have a ro8 full of people none of which are top 10 players, weird for a season finals
On July 03 2021 02:15 Pandain wrote: Other than reynor and maru we are going to have a ro8 full of people none of which are top 10 players, weird for a season finals
Nah Rogue is going to advance too. In the end it's only Trap and Clem missing.
On July 03 2021 02:14 Nakajin wrote: EU getting reminded of how was the world without Serral.
On the other side, I hope Clem can get his mojo back, I don't like seeing him like that. Just keep your head down and keep practicing Clément, good things will come back to you!
I mean, Reynor is overall solid and made it out in a very strong group. He's my favorite on the tournament win actually, either him or Maru.
Clem managed to become a monster in TvZ, he probably didn't practise the other match ups close as much and it's a problem outside of Europe.
On July 03 2021 02:17 parksonsc wrote: Clem needs to travel to Korea to improve his TvP and TvT, otherwise he's never gonna win anything outside of EU.
eh I wouldn't be so certain
Reynor and Serral got really good without having Korean players to practice against. Sure, playing Serral and Reynor has accelerated Clem's TvZ advancement, but I don't think he NEEDS to play their equivalent in TvT and TvP to level up. Now, if you think going to Korea could speed things up, then sure, that could be the case.
Why did he keep attacking into 60 spores over no mans land with no templars? Why not force his way into the last few remaining bases with cannons and batteries?
Look like Maru gonna cruise the TvT ship into the Final. Meanwhile, TIME might have a shot to break Rogue, and Reynor vs Dream would be interesting as well.
EPT
ESL Pro Tour/2021/22/Masters/Summer
ESL SC2 - Main Stream | 
Trap vs 
Scarlett
Dream vs 
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/DVVBIZw.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/dVN7Ho4.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/otIWCGE.png)
