On March 01 2021 06:52 Beelzebub1 wrote: As a Zerg player watching these replays, you really have to take a hard look at how massively the game shifts in the favor or Zerg once Lurkers hit the field, they pump out such DPS that they even make Immortals seem like a pretty bad response.
Might be time for some number adjustments for the Lurker, a buff to Protoss might be warranted but I'm clueless as to how they could do that without making them imba vs Terran, P sitting at a 53% WR vs. T on Aligulac which I know isn't gospel or anything but still a halfway decent indicator.
ZvP shockingly sitting at a solid 50%, I would have thought it would be more Zerg favored.
I think we’re at a stage where the meta is still in flux, it wasn’t that long ago that 2 SG Void seemed a catch-all answer to Protoss prayers.
The kind of busts with lurkers and tons of Queens were nasty this tournament, but they seem ripe for disruptors just smacking them down with their high burst damage.
But then disruptors are super vulnerable to viper yoinks, Templar are the safer option in terms of reliable AoE, problem is storms don’t do shit vs lurkers with that many transfuses.
I’m struggling to think of a response that isn’t ‘build every Protoss unit’ lol, but I think there’s still scope for growth at the minute, unlike previous patches there doesn’t feel to be some omnipresent strat that Protoss just outright can’t stop like we’ve seen before.
Yea, one thing I'm not liking about the way pro Protoss players are approaching ZvP is how passive they are doing it, general rule of thumb is that you cannot sit there and let the Zerg player just greed out and tech. Plus, since a plain vanilla roach/ravager max seems capable of putting the Protoss thats going for this double SG play way on the back heel, I just don't know.
Not saying some scrub like me would know how to do it better, but I remember Phoenix play being alot more dominant for alot longer then this Void Ray into 2 Oracle thing, drone kills seem minimal while easily fended off by Queens. Where as a pack Phoenix can simply lift and fight Queens or tank some hits while they graviton up drones.
Like I said, not saying I could do it any better by a long shot, but the whole, "2 SG is the way" thing seems out, Protoss need to figure out a way to pressure and contain the Zerg economy early, back to basics.
I’m no expert I assume it’s popular because it’s safe as hell as an opener, you don’t die to much outright.l
Plus I would assume part of it is Zergs have just got too good at defending phoenixes with minimal damage. As they got pretty good at defending standard oracle shenanigans
I mean it would make sense, it does indeed seem safe.
I still think Phoenixes got more kills though generally, I guess maybe the issue is that they can't cast spells for vision and creep clearing as well.
Who knows, a small balance patch here and there probably wouldn't be too bad if warranted, perhaps a slight nerf to Adaptive Talons? I mean that upgrade is just insane in it's repositioning potential.
By going Phoenixes you are more or less telling the Zerg they can do whatever they want until your 3rd is fully established. The vanilla 2SG does the same, but it can also branch into at least two all-ins that Zest has shown in this very tournament (he did a two SG mass Phoenix timing in the group stage, plus the charge timing from game 1 in the finals). As far as I know, Phoenix into some committed timing hasn't really been a thing in a very long time, it's a much more rigid build because of the extra gas required. On top of that, the raw number of drones killed is misleading. Basically every Protoss opening effectively kills 2-3 drones simply by forcing spores. If an Oracle kills 2-3 extra, while a bunch Phoenixes get 7, you are not getting ~200% more drone kills, you're getting only ~100%, while also spending more and giving the Zerg more freedom, if that makes sense.
At least as far as openings and setting up for the midgame goes, going some combination of Oracles and Void Rays is more flexible than straight Phoenixes imo. As a side note, Reynor gained a large advantage because Zest's first two Stargate units always telegraphed his entire game plan (he went double Void Ray if he wanted to all in, Void Ray into Oracle when he went for Stargate macro, and mass Oracle when he went single Stargate into ground), as Lambo mentioned on his stream, but that's a minor digression
Once midgame hits (which I define as "anything after starting your third"), either Protoss commits to some sort of all-in like they have been doing to mediocre success before 2SG became a thing, or you just do not have the power to be anywhere near creep. This is is also why PvZ produces such boring games, as the only interesting thing going on really are the strategy adjustments and mindgames.
So now we have our third, we're not all in, and the ball is entirely in the Zerg's court to either go Hive or do their own allin. When you have no chance but to sit back and macro, it makes sense to go for the build that sets you up best for lategame, which after the Viper nerf seems more playable than it's been in years. Another side note here is that Zest's builds were on the greedy side like that. I don't think it's a coincidence that the only game he won in the finals, Reynor was forced to push into the base with the shield batteries and cannons. Both on Deathaura and Pillars of Gold, the bulk of Zest's defensive buildings were at a base that never came near a Zerg unit. On top of that, he always went for Storm ahead of Disruptors which are supposedly much safer (at the cost of a worse lategame).
So TLDR, I think the double SG build is the first one in years that sets up a decent variety of builds and a good, if passive midgame, and more importantly it makes Protoss decent in lategame. I think there's room to tweak it so it's less vulnerable to all-ins without balance or map changes, and Zest didn't show any of those possible tweaks. Zerg timings now are not that different from the WoL style roach max, which constricted Protoss builds greatly but eventually was solved.
Cheers Also I'll add that going by Aligulac (so take with a grain of salt ofc), PvZ win rate this month was just over 53%. That's the highest it's ever been since February 2011, right before the dreaded infestor buff. Since that buff, there have only been two months when the win rate was above 50%: December 2018 and February 2019. Which is why I still think that The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit is the finest article I've ever written.
Zest took 2 maps? That is a bit surprising. All of the people complaining about ZvP finals, you can write to Maru and ask him why he decided to give us a crappy finals this year and last time as well...
GG to everyone, especially Maru, Zest and Dark, they looked the best in this tournament. Some great matches, unfortunately with a sucky ending. Lets hope for offline WC next time
On March 01 2021 17:44 MarianoSC2 wrote: Zest took 2 maps? That is a bit surprising. All of the people complaining about ZvP finals, you can write to Maru and ask him why he decided to give us a crappy finals this year and last time as well...
GG to everyone, especially Maru, Zest and Dark, they looked the best in this tournament. Some great matches, unfortunately with a sucky ending. Lets hope for offline WC next time
So just trying to understand what you are saying: - Zest came into the finals with a 10-1 match score and 27-10 map score vs zerg in February 2021 had no right to take 2 maps vs zerg in Bo7 - Maru lost on purpose because he didn't want to play in the finals - Maru, Zest and Dark all lost to Reynor but all 3 looked best in this tournament
Dude, I get fandom, but this is a textbook denial and hate speech.
I still think the core problem here is the queen. Reynor made lots in every game and it game him the ability to spread lots of creep, deflect harass, and even walk them across the map and have sufficient anti air to stop the Stargate play in its tracks.
The unit is just way to versatile. Something needs to happen in zerg early game to force the zerg to choose. This will also make for a much more interesting viewer experience.
Now to see if blizz are going to make any changes here at the end of the SC year or if what we have now will simply be SC2 from now on.
Looking at the brakets i would say that balance is not a problem in this game. Raynor was just the better player. Not by far, so he needed a bit of luck , but this time he was the best for sure.
Balance is not a problem indeed, however p v z is still uninteresting like it always has, all in or full macro with dumb skytoss, no traiding allowed besides zealots from P, just mind games and coin flips, such a stale matchup the worst if you ask me all mirrors matchup are better, v p and t v z are so action packed compared to this matchup.
About maru yeah, the guy has probably the best mechanics of everyone and he's brillant but sometimes he makes very dumb decisions what was this battlecruiser build mess ? As for the depot missing same thing against life in taipei it happens probably would have won the whole thing because he always smash zest in GSL but we would never now he could have lost it too...
On March 01 2021 12:57 Teoita wrote: By going Phoenixes you are more or less telling the Zerg they can do whatever they want until your 3rd is fully established. The vanilla 2SG does the same, but it can also branch into at least two all-ins that Zest has shown in this very tournament (he did a two SG mass Phoenix timing in the group stage, plus the charge timing from game 1 in the finals). As far as I know, Phoenix into some committed timing hasn't really been a thing in a very long time, it's a much more rigid build because of the extra gas required. On top of that, the raw number of drones killed is misleading. Basically every Protoss opening effectively kills 2-3 drones simply by forcing spores. If an Oracle kills 2-3 extra, while a bunch Phoenixes get 7, you are not getting ~200% more drone kills, you're getting only ~100%, while also spending more and giving the Zerg more freedom, if that makes sense.
At least as far as openings and setting up for the midgame goes, going some combination of Oracles and Void Rays is more flexible than straight Phoenixes imo. As a side note, Reynor gained a large advantage because Zest's first two Stargate units always telegraphed his entire game plan (he went double Void Ray if he wanted to all in, Void Ray into Oracle when he went for Stargate macro, and mass Oracle when he went single Stargate into ground), as Lambo mentioned on his stream, but that's a minor digression
Once midgame hits (which I define as "anything after starting your third"), either Protoss commits to some sort of all-in like they have been doing to mediocre success before 2SG became a thing, or you just do not have the power to be anywhere near creep. This is is also why PvZ produces such boring games, as the only interesting thing going on really are the strategy adjustments and mindgames.
So now we have our third, we're not all in, and the ball is entirely in the Zerg's court to either go Hive or do their own allin. When you have no chance but to sit back and macro, it makes sense to go for the build that sets you up best for lategame, which after the Viper nerf seems more playable than it's been in years. Another side note here is that Zest's builds were on the greedy side like that. I don't think it's a coincidence that the only game he won in the finals, Reynor was forced to push into the base with the shield batteries and cannons. Both on Deathaura and Pillars of Gold, the bulk of Zest's defensive buildings were at a base that never came near a Zerg unit. On top of that, he always went for Storm ahead of Disruptors which are supposedly much safer (at the cost of a worse lategame).
So TLDR, I think the double SG build is the first one in years that sets up a decent variety of builds and a good, if passive midgame, and more importantly it makes Protoss decent in lategame. I think there's room to tweak it so it's less vulnerable to all-ins without balance or map changes, and Zest didn't show any of those possible tweaks. Zerg timings now are not that different from the WoL style roach max, which constricted Protoss builds greatly but eventually was solved.
tl;dr
zest lost because reynor read him like a book and had an answer ready on hand. zest, goddamnit
On March 01 2021 17:44 MarianoSC2 wrote: Zest took 2 maps? That is a bit surprising. All of the people complaining about ZvP finals, you can write to Maru and ask him why he decided to give us a crappy finals this year and last time as well...
GG to everyone, especially Maru, Zest and Dark, they looked the best in this tournament. Some great matches, unfortunately with a sucky ending. Lets hope for offline WC next time
So just trying to understand what you are saying: - Zest came into the finals with a 10-1 match score and 27-10 map score vs zerg in February 2021 had no right to take 2 maps vs zerg in Bo7 - Maru lost on purpose because he didn't want to play in the finals - Maru, Zest and Dark all lost to Reynor but all 3 looked best in this tournament
Dude, I get fandom, but this is a textbook denial and hate speech.
- Yes, it was very surprising Zest took 2 maps with ping/lags in ZvP BO7 played at 5AM while already staying up all night. All the more BO7 finals in big tournaments always being easy walk overs for Zerg - Not on purpose, it was obvious his shoulder started to hurt, his macro was slowing down and his decision making was very poor in the last 3 series. Reynor was lucky to have those wins gifted to him by Maru and circumstances - Yes, all of them displayed much better play than Reynor who got into the finals with 17:11 map score and was extremely lucky to scrape through some of the wins on numerous occasions. Even against Stats he was not the better player and Stats should have won game 4. But somehow against Reynor all these top players screwed up big time in decisive moments. That is on them, not Reynor being the best.
Do you remember how Serral won Blizzcon? Even I had to admit there that he was the best player in the world and dominated everyone by quite a big margin. But here, this, it was nothing but a fluke, sorry...
On March 01 2021 17:44 MarianoSC2 wrote: Zest took 2 maps? That is a bit surprising. All of the people complaining about ZvP finals, you can write to Maru and ask him why he decided to give us a crappy finals this year and last time as well...
GG to everyone, especially Maru, Zest and Dark, they looked the best in this tournament. Some great matches, unfortunately with a sucky ending. Lets hope for offline WC next time
So just trying to understand what you are saying: - Zest came into the finals with a 10-1 match score and 27-10 map score vs zerg in February 2021 had no right to take 2 maps vs zerg in Bo7 - Maru lost on purpose because he didn't want to play in the finals - Maru, Zest and Dark all lost to Reynor but all 3 looked best in this tournament
Dude, I get fandom, but this is a textbook denial and hate speech.
- Yes, it was very surprising Zest took 2 maps with ping/lags in ZvP BO7 played at 5AM while already staying up all night. All the more BO7 finals in big tournaments always being easy walk overs for Zerg - Not on purpose, it was obvious his shoulder started to hurt, his macro was slowing down and his decision making was very poor in the last 3 series. Reynor was lucky to have those wins gifted to him by Maru and circumstances - Yes, all of them displayed much better play than Reynor who got into the finals with 17:11 map score and was extremely lucky to scrape through some of the wins on numerous occasions. Even against Stats he was not the better player and Stats should have won game 4. But somehow against Reynor all these top players screwed up big time in decisive moments. That is on them, not Reynor being the best.
Do you remember how Serral won Blizzcon? Even I had to admit there that he was the best player in the world and dominated everyone by quite a big margin. But here, this, it was nothing but a fluke, sorry...
I'm happy you phrased everything exactly like that, I don't need even to respond for everyone to see the altitude of your delusion and/or trolling.
On March 01 2021 17:44 MarianoSC2 wrote: Zest took 2 maps? That is a bit surprising. All of the people complaining about ZvP finals, you can write to Maru and ask him why he decided to give us a crappy finals this year and last time as well...
GG to everyone, especially Maru, Zest and Dark, they looked the best in this tournament. Some great matches, unfortunately with a sucky ending. Lets hope for offline WC next time
So just trying to understand what you are saying: - Zest came into the finals with a 10-1 match score and 27-10 map score vs zerg in February 2021 had no right to take 2 maps vs zerg in Bo7 - Maru lost on purpose because he didn't want to play in the finals - Maru, Zest and Dark all lost to Reynor but all 3 looked best in this tournament
Dude, I get fandom, but this is a textbook denial and hate speech.
- Yes, it was very surprising Zest took 2 maps with ping/lags in ZvP BO7 played at 5AM while already staying up all night. All the more BO7 finals in big tournaments always being easy walk overs for Zerg - Not on purpose, it was obvious his shoulder started to hurt, his macro was slowing down and his decision making was very poor in the last 3 series. Reynor was lucky to have those wins gifted to him by Maru and circumstances - Yes, all of them displayed much better play than Reynor who got into the finals with 17:11 map score and was extremely lucky to scrape through some of the wins on numerous occasions. Even against Stats he was not the better player and Stats should have won game 4. But somehow against Reynor all these top players screwed up big time in decisive moments. That is on them, not Reynor being the best.
Do you remember how Serral won Blizzcon? Even I had to admit there that he was the best player in the world and dominated everyone by quite a big margin. But here, this, it was nothing but a fluke, sorry...
Even if I were to agree that all of this is true it only makes it more impressive that Reynor got the win. He took every chance he was given and even though he looked worse than someof hs opponents at times he stiill got over the line. That's what sports is all about (to me at least). Its why tournaments are more fun than long leagues.
Reynor was super resilient. Sure the koreans played at morning hours and ping would have been better if there were no more cross server matches, but a win is a win. Zerg wasn't as strong as in the previous years so even more impressive.
On March 01 2021 17:44 MarianoSC2 wrote: Zest took 2 maps? That is a bit surprising. All of the people complaining about ZvP finals, you can write to Maru and ask him why he decided to give us a crappy finals this year and last time as well...
GG to everyone, especially Maru, Zest and Dark, they looked the best in this tournament. Some great matches, unfortunately with a sucky ending. Lets hope for offline WC next time
So just trying to understand what you are saying: - Zest came into the finals with a 10-1 match score and 27-10 map score vs zerg in February 2021 had no right to take 2 maps vs zerg in Bo7 - Maru lost on purpose because he didn't want to play in the finals - Maru, Zest and Dark all lost to Reynor but all 3 looked best in this tournament
Dude, I get fandom, but this is a textbook denial and hate speech.
- Yes, it was very surprising Zest took 2 maps with ping/lags in ZvP BO7 played at 5AM while already staying up all night. All the more BO7 finals in big tournaments always being easy walk overs for Zerg - Not on purpose, it was obvious his shoulder started to hurt, his macro was slowing down and his decision making was very poor in the last 3 series. Reynor was lucky to have those wins gifted to him by Maru and circumstances - Yes, all of them displayed much better play than Reynor who got into the finals with 17:11 map score and was extremely lucky to scrape through some of the wins on numerous occasions. Even against Stats he was not the better player and Stats should have won game 4. But somehow against Reynor all these top players screwed up big time in decisive moments. That is on them, not Reynor being the best.
Do you remember how Serral won Blizzcon? Even I had to admit there that he was the best player in the world and dominated everyone by quite a big margin. But here, this, it was nothing but a fluke, sorry...
I get it that some people don t like the talkcraft between games. But please PLEASE listen to some of the interviews guys. Maru actually said, that he feels realy good and wishes he did the shoulder treatment sooner, as it helped him a lot. Wondering how you know more about his body than himselve. Lambo analyzed the games vs Maru and Zest on his stream after the finals and how he helped Reynor prepare for them. (If you don t know, Lambo was coaching Reynor for IEM) Reynor knew all of Marus builds and had the plan to go lurker every single time, because it went well in practise. It didn t work in the first 2 games, as he never entered super late game with B-Lords against any Practise partner (not even with Archons), as they all died before. So he improvised and came up with a totally different playstile to win game 3-5.
So it was extremly precise preperation together with amazing game sense that gave him the win. Absolutly impressive.
On March 01 2021 17:44 MarianoSC2 wrote: Zest took 2 maps? That is a bit surprising. All of the people complaining about ZvP finals, you can write to Maru and ask him why he decided to give us a crappy finals this year and last time as well...
GG to everyone, especially Maru, Zest and Dark, they looked the best in this tournament. Some great matches, unfortunately with a sucky ending. Lets hope for offline WC next time
So just trying to understand what you are saying: - Zest came into the finals with a 10-1 match score and 27-10 map score vs zerg in February 2021 had no right to take 2 maps vs zerg in Bo7 - Maru lost on purpose because he didn't want to play in the finals - Maru, Zest and Dark all lost to Reynor but all 3 looked best in this tournament
Dude, I get fandom, but this is a textbook denial and hate speech.
- Yes, it was very surprising Zest took 2 maps with ping/lags in ZvP BO7 played at 5AM while already staying up all night. All the more BO7 finals in big tournaments always being easy walk overs for Zerg - Not on purpose, it was obvious his shoulder started to hurt, his macro was slowing down and his decision making was very poor in the last 3 series. Reynor was lucky to have those wins gifted to him by Maru and circumstances - Yes, all of them displayed much better play than Reynor who got into the finals with 17:11 map score and was extremely lucky to scrape through some of the wins on numerous occasions. Even against Stats he was not the better player and Stats should have won game 4. But somehow against Reynor all these top players screwed up big time in decisive moments. That is on them, not Reynor being the best.
Do you remember how Serral won Blizzcon? Even I had to admit there that he was the best player in the world and dominated everyone by quite a big margin. But here, this, it was nothing but a fluke, sorry...
ROFL - Both players have the same ping - That's why Maru said in his interview that he feels good and has no pain - They were better so they lost. Makes total sense
You are absolutely ridiculous
EDIT: You forgot to mention that this was a holiday tournament and Koreans don't really care about it
Also we should not overlook the psychological strength that you need to keep playing well when your opponent has only one game to win to beat you.
Reynor has an incredible resilience that is more unique than rare, 3 series in a row he clawed back from almost elimination. While being against match point Serral's skill suffers and Maru and Clem start to proxy, he simply keeps playing well and starts winning.
There's many factors to the ability of an athlete to bring home the results, ability to focus and think clear under pressure is one of them, and Reynor excels in it.
- Yes, it was very surprising Zest took 2 maps with ping/lags in ZvP BO7 played at 5AM while already staying up all night. All the more BO7 finals in big tournaments always being easy walk overs for Zerg
Last 3 premiere (on Liquipedia) ZvT BO7 finals were
So i believe that 'always being easy walk' is an overstatement.(At least in the current meta/patch)
On March 01 2021 20:54 MarianoSC2 wrote: - Yes, all of them displayed much better play than Reynor who got into the finals with 17:11 map score and was extremely lucky to scrape through some of the wins on numerous occasions. Even against Stats he was not the better player and Stats should have won game 4. But somehow against Reynor all these top players screwed up big time in decisive moments. That is on them, not Reynor being the best.
Do you remember how Serral won Blizzcon? Even I had to admit there that he was the best player in the world and dominated everyone by quite a big margin. But here, this, it was nothing but a fluke, sorry...
I remember well when Soo won his Katowice Championship in 2019. Was he the best player? Probably not: he almost got eliminated in the group stage (3-2 record) and was lucky winning a really close 5th game against Serral (who was the better player at the moment). But it was a great run, a well deserved championship, a no one tried to diminish his achivement.
This year I personally believe Dark or Zest were the best players: but if you are not able to appreciate how well Reynor played against Dark, Maru and Zest and blame it mainly on luck, i really believe you are strongly biased against Reynor/Zergs.
EPT
Also I'll add that going by Aligulac (so take with a grain of salt ofc), PvZ win rate this month was just over 53%. That's the highest it's ever been since February 2011, right before the dreaded infestor buff. Since that buff, there have only been two months when the win rate was above 50%: December 2018 and February 2019. Which is why I still think that The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit is the finest article I've ever written.
