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Northern Ireland26270 Posts
On January 15 2021 13:13 buzz_bender wrote:
What is it about Korean terrans that Reynor struggle with compared to the EU Terrans like Clem/Heromarine? Let's get a discussion going. What do they do that is so much better compared to their EU counterparts that they can beat someone like Reynor? I look at the games, and I don't think I'm good enough to see any major differences.
I’m not sure Reynor really has suffered against Korean Terrans all that much.
Maybe recently a little but just from my recollection he’s handed down a ton of smack downs too.
Just from Dreamhack Finals this year, Summer he beat Maru 2-0 in groups and beat Inno 3-2 in brackets before losing. Fall he won the whole thing beating TY in brackets 3-1. Winter he bowed out in the quarters (to Clem) but not before 2-0s against Inno and Time in groups.
I mean there are other tournaments that he maybe didn’t perform his best but his record against Koreans in the staple cross-region tournament is actually pretty good.
I think he suffers from his development pushing him out of the ‘can compete with the best’ to ‘is expected to beat the best’ and perception has shifted with it, when in reality he’s just trading well against the world’s finest players. Serral has this in an even more extreme way.
As for your question, Korean Terrans basically don’t do anything better than Clem, specifically in the TvZ matchup. He’s up there with Koreans, in my opinion the only foreign Terran to actually be as ‘good’ as the Korean Terrans in the history of SC2. We’ve had players who’ve done amazing things as foreign Terrans, such as a Thorzain but his edge was in the brains not the hands and in a strategy game it’s easier to copy strats than constantly come up with new ones, or be a mechanical one.
Heromarine straight up isn’t as good, he maybe could be though. To come up with a poor analogy, he’s the archetypal standard, correct, technically sound player. He does the textbook things well, if he was a golf player or a tennis player he’d be your archetypal solid tour professional, just solid. Which is fine except sometimes to win the big prizes you need either the technical genius of a Federer or a Woods, or you need to take the big risks and have a crazy 4 days of golf and maybe you get that Major.
Hero is neither a crazy risk taker, nor is he mechanically as solid as a Clem, never mind a Maru.
We have a for fun betting thing on this sight called Liquibets and Hero is my favourite guy to bet on. He’s so solid he’ll almost always beat players I expect him to beat, and almost always lose to players I expect him to lose to.
On a pure technical level his splitting just isn’t as good as Clem’s, Byun’s or Maru’s, indeed to look at today’s games probably even Bunny’s and this adds up to quite a lot problems for him. He also doesn’t have the machine macro of Inno.
You do a lot of splitting, and doing it well is super important to winning engagements. It just adds up to a lot. You win engagements you wouldn’t otherwise, or you save some units and push again with your rally, versus having to retreat completely. You just save units over time and lose less resources which both keeps your aggressive options open for longer, but you’re trading better in a stalemate. Plus you feel more confident to do risky pushes if you’re confident you can micro like a god and make it work.
TvZ is a very trade-based matchup and splitting well, every single time like the really top TvZers do makes every trade that bit better for them.
7-8/10 at basically all areas of the game, which is great and he’s a fantastic player but when you’re up against someone who is 9/10 at everything, or someone who is 10/10 at a few things but bad at others that you can’t exploit you hit a ceiling.
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Northern Ireland26270 Posts
On January 15 2021 13:13 buzz_bender wrote:
What is it about Korean terrans that Reynor struggle with compared to the EU Terrans like Clem/Heromarine? Let's get a discussion going. What do they do that is so much better compared to their EU counterparts that they can beat someone like Reynor? I look at the games, and I don't think I'm good enough to see any major differences.
little old but it’s a good breakdown of top TvZ play by a pro. He does some for Maru as well
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I’m not sure Reynor really has suffered against Korean Terrans all that much.
Maybe recently a little but just from my recollection he’s handed down a ton of smack downs too.
Just from Dreamhack Finals this year, Summer he beat Maru 2-0 in groups and beat Inno 3-2 in brackets before losing. Fall he won the whole thing beating TY in brackets 3-1. Winter he bowed out in the quarters (to Clem) but not before 2-0s against Inno and Time in groups.
I mean there are other tournaments that he maybe didn’t perform his best but his record against Koreans in the staple cross-region tournament is actually pretty good.
Thinking about it, I think I can agree with you here. It could be recently bias, but it does seem like he's struggling against them in recent months. That leads me to think if the Korean Terrans are also adjusting to his playstyle after losing to him earlier on. I also have to also ask if the map pools play into this as well. For example, Maru in Game 5 against Reynor in TSL (I think), was obviously playing a style that counters Reynor's lurker play. To be fair as well, only Maru has played that. The TvZ meta current is exciting! However, I do think Zerg is slightly underpowered currently.
I do agree with Clem that he's prob the only Terran in TvZ that's on par with the Koreans. I still think he still has tremendous room for improvement as I don't think he's as solid as he can be in vT or vP compared to the Koreans.
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On January 15 2021 13:13 buzz_bender wrote:
What is it about Korean terrans that Reynor struggle with compared to the EU Terrans like Clem/Heromarine? Let's get a discussion going. What do they do that is so much better compared to their EU counterparts that they can beat someone like Reynor? I look at the games, and I don't think I'm good enough to see any major differences.
I think Korean Terrans are better at punishing mistakes and beeing to greedy. And Reynor played very standard and very predictable from what I saw.
Even Serral now throws in the occasional all-in to keep Terrans on their toes, though Serral sucks at all-ins big time.
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United States125 Posts
On January 15 2021 13:13 buzz_bender wrote:
What is it about Korean terrans that Reynor struggle with compared to the EU Terrans like Clem/Heromarine? Let's get a discussion going. What do they do that is so much better compared to their EU counterparts that they can beat someone like Reynor? I look at the games, and I don't think I'm good enough to see any major differences.
Cross server makes going mass muta a huge risk. Lag is super punishing vs mines and thors. You might say that Terran has to micro to split more but that is nearly equaled by baneling micro and is overall less punishing than controlling muta flocks.
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So, swarm host games still suck.
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On January 15 2021 23:18 Elentos wrote:
So, swarm host games still suck.
Did they ever not?
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On January 15 2021 23:19 darklycid wrote:Did they ever not?
Maybe they didn't in some tournament nobody was watching. Who could know? That's why it's important to re-confirm when there's a chance.
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I didn't mind Showtime's chances going into today's group but that wasn't his best gameplay.
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United States23455 Posts
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On January 15 2021 23:34 Darkhorse wrote:
Let's go Solar
I'll have you know not cheering for Stats is considered a war crime by many countries.
![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/426050499087695873.png?v=1)
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United States23455 Posts
On January 15 2021 23:36 Elentos wrote:I'll have you know not cheering for Stats is considered a war crime by many countries.
Well then drag me to The Hague bb it's Solar time
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Fun fact about this group:
Every player's ID starts with S - Stats, Serral, Solar, ShoWTimE
Stats is the only one whose real name doesn't have an S anywhere.
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United States33560 Posts
Stats isn't at his apartment?
Did he move or something?
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On January 15 2021 23:45 Waxangel wrote:
Stats isn't at his apartment?
Did he move or something?
Maybe in protest of TL not posting a preview for his group he went to a different place and put up a poster of himself.
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Gotta say showtime and stats so far not playing well at all, both just look kinda off.
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United States33560 Posts
On January 15 2021 23:59 darklycid wrote:
Gotta say showtime and stats so far not playing well at all, both just look kinda off.
It's not particularly surprising for Stats; his game-to-game play has been really inconsistent over the last 6 months or so. Compared to the past he's MUCH more prone to just making dumb mistakes. His highs are still really high (or else he wouldn't have all those good tournament finishes).
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United States23455 Posts
Dang that was a bit of a rolling
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People were worried about 0 Zerg Ro8 but this group so far is making it look like 1 Protoss Ro8 instead.
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EPT
