Glad to have this tournament, but I think it would be a lot more hype if it was a winner takes all tournament with no prize pool except for a seed into the round of 24, even if the level of play would be a lot lower.
Zest really missed his timing being up +2/+1 for 90-120 seconds. But then again Clem was entrenched so maybe even with the upgrade lead it wouldnt have mattered, gg
TY is kind of the comeback king in TvT lmao, MarineLord also did well vs him early/mid but couldn't finish him off. Impressive decision making. Maybe online TY isn't that bad in 2021?
TY was on 1/1, stim, combat shields and 3 CC while Clem was on 2 CC, no +1 infantry upgrades and concussive shells instead of combat shields for some reason.
I'm sure Clem has won games like this on ladder but you can't fault him for not trying to against TY.
Excellent all around map from Clem there. Just looking at his gameplay, I can't really tell why the top Korean Terrans and Protosses keep cutting him off in major tournaments, but oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
On January 13 2021 03:56 Waxangel wrote: As a RagnaroK believer, it would be nice to see him go for the "play well into win" strat instead of "play well into lose"
On January 13 2021 23:02 Poopi wrote: Why does it say TBD vs ByuN? Rogue can’t play the tournament? Edit: nvm it’s been fixed on the sidebar.
...some players have a bug that, when you edit the matches, make them disappear... it happens with rogue, inno, soo and a few (not many fortunately) more...
PvP has traditionally been the 'anyone can win' match-up of SC2, but it's feeling ridiculously stratified these days. Hoping PartinG does well, but I feel like Trap is a huge favorite in a way you wouldn't expect from past eras of PvP's.
This is such a pointless 'last chance' tournament lol. 'Last chance' with most of the players who already qualified for IEM (except maybe Byun) is a big joke lol. If you're gonna call it a 'last chance tournament', then people who 100% qualified for IEM should not be able to play in this tournament, otherwise, it defeats the purpose of it being a 'last chance' for many players. Should've just called it DH winter 2021, at least that makes more sense.
With that being said, I enjoyed the games today and yesterday
On January 14 2021 15:11 whiterabbit wrote: The DreamHack SC2 Masters Last Chance 2021 is the last-chance online event of the ESL Pro Tour 2020/21 Circuit.
What is actual meaning of "Last Chance" in name of the tournament. Liquipedia doesn't explain it. Last chance for what?
Last chance to earn EPT points before IEM Katowice.
On January 14 2021 15:11 whiterabbit wrote: The DreamHack SC2 Masters Last Chance 2021 is the last-chance online event of the ESL Pro Tour 2020/21 Circuit.
What is actual meaning of "Last Chance" in name of the tournament. Liquipedia doesn't explain it. Last chance for what?
Last chance to earn EPT points before IEM Katowice (standings lock after Last Chance). ESL thought it would affect the qualification picture, but didn't really consider that if you're good enough to qualify for Last Chance (top 16-ish player in the world), you prolly already had enough points to lock in an IEM Katowice spot by now. In effect, it's just a tournament for Katowice seeding and money. Still a killer line-up tho :0
lol @ the fuzz about the tournament name, who cares if we get to see fantastic players play good sc. It's the last change to earn some cash and get some spotlight in ESL Pro Tour 2020/21 Circuit for anyone, including those, not qualified for the season closing tournament.
On January 14 2021 22:05 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: lol @ the fuzz about the tournament name, who cares if we get to see fantastic players play good sc. It's the last change to earn some cash and get some spotlight in ESL Pro Tour 2020/21 Circuit for anyone, including those, not qualified for the season closing tournament.
It’s no big deal but just call it a regular Dhack. Just unfortunate for hype that there’s not much on the line for Katowice qualification but that’s how this year has gone.
An actual last chance separate tourney would be good for hype and excitement, but kind of a bit unfair on those borderline qualified through the year cycle.
On January 14 2021 12:05 AzAlexZ wrote: This is such a pointless 'last chance' tournament lol. 'Last chance' with most of the players who already qualified for IEM (except maybe Byun) is a big joke lol. If you're gonna call it a 'last chance tournament', then people who 100% qualified for IEM should not be able to play in this tournament, otherwise, it defeats the purpose of it being a 'last chance' for many players. Should've just called it DH winter 2021, at least that makes more sense.
With that being said, I enjoyed the games today and yesterday
On January 15 2021 00:51 parksonsc wrote: Why are there so few comment here for such a major tournament?
Maybe because its a bit random, its a big tourney but nothing else, the name is last chance qualifier but we already know the qualifiers to katowice which is much bigger and coming up next month. Guess most people will come back for that
On January 15 2021 01:16 Elentos wrote: Playing mech and pushing with 0 defense at home is and always has been Y I K E S
if you keep enough at home to defend counter-attacks your attacking army will be shit. If you stay back and play defensive the opponent takes the entire map.
On January 15 2021 03:52 Xain0n wrote: This was a much better game! Reynor seems not to look great at the start of the year, it happened in 2020 as well.
On January 15 2021 03:52 TentativePanda wrote: If Serral wins Terrans will whine, bet
Don't tell them, you know they could!
I'll forever remember them whining leading up to and even after the 4 Terran semifinals in GSL we had last year. And it got them more buffs and Zerg nerfs. Other races need to take note and whine while ahead too
On January 15 2021 03:52 Xain0n wrote: This was a much better game! Reynor seems not to look great at the start of the year, it happened in 2020 as well.
On January 15 2021 03:52 TentativePanda wrote: If Serral wins Terrans will whine, bet
Don't tell them, you know they could!
I'll forever remember them whining leading up to and even after the 4 Terran semifinals in GSL we had last year. And it got them more buffs and Zerg nerfs. Other races need to take note and whine while ahead too
Well as you can see on liquipedia statistics (awesome job btw!) : Winnings/2020 ; terran still won less prize money than both protoss and zerg (top 10 players of each race), with zerg ahead of the pack ; so ultimately I guess the diverse buffs and nerfs that happened were needed?
On January 15 2021 03:52 Xain0n wrote: This was a much better game! Reynor seems not to look great at the start of the year, it happened in 2020 as well.
On January 15 2021 03:52 TentativePanda wrote: If Serral wins Terrans will whine, bet
Don't tell them, you know they could!
I'll forever remember them whining leading up to and even after the 4 Terran semifinals in GSL we had last year. And it got them more buffs and Zerg nerfs. Other races need to take note and whine while ahead too
Well as you can see on liquipedia statistics (awesome job btw!) : Winnings/2020 ; terran still won less prize money than both protoss and zerg, with zerg ahead of the pack ; so ultimately I guess the diverse buffs and nerfs that happened were needed?
Seems like an awful way to measure it considering prize pool distribution is abysmal in starcraft 2. Rogue's own IEM 2020 earnings are more than the total prize pool of a GSL season.
Guys, give it a month or two so we know if this is an actual shift, or just like that 2 month intermission in 2019 where Protoss won a few tournaments and then Zerg won everything again
On January 15 2021 03:52 Xain0n wrote: This was a much better game! Reynor seems not to look great at the start of the year, it happened in 2020 as well.
On January 15 2021 03:52 TentativePanda wrote: If Serral wins Terrans will whine, bet
Don't tell them, you know they could!
I'll forever remember them whining leading up to and even after the 4 Terran semifinals in GSL we had last year. And it got them more buffs and Zerg nerfs. Other races need to take note and whine while ahead too
Well as you can see on liquipedia statistics (awesome job btw!) : Winnings/2020 ; terran still won less prize money than both protoss and zerg, with zerg ahead of the pack ; so ultimately I guess the diverse buffs and nerfs that happened were needed?
Seems like an awful way to measure it considering prize pool distribution is abysmal in starcraft 2. Rogue's own IEM 2020 earnings are more than the total prize pool of a GSL season.
Well there is no perfect way to measure it, but for players it's a pretty important measure! We can also use aligulac balance report, that had terran lagging behind in summer 2020, protoss ahead of Z/T and Z in the middle ; it's a lot more even nowadays. I don't know though at which dates patches happened so maybe it's due to natural meta changes and not the patches themselves, idk.
On January 15 2021 03:52 Xain0n wrote: This was a much better game! Reynor seems not to look great at the start of the year, it happened in 2020 as well.
On January 15 2021 03:52 TentativePanda wrote: If Serral wins Terrans will whine, bet
Don't tell them, you know they could!
I'll forever remember them whining leading up to and even after the 4 Terran semifinals in GSL we had last year. And it got them more buffs and Zerg nerfs. Other races need to take note and whine while ahead too
Well as you can see on liquipedia statistics (awesome job btw!) : Winnings/2020 ; terran still won less prize money than both protoss and zerg, with zerg ahead of the pack ; so ultimately I guess the diverse buffs and nerfs that happened were needed?
Seems like an awful way to measure it considering prize pool distribution is abysmal in starcraft 2. Rogue's own IEM 2020 earnings are more than the total prize pool of a GSL season.
Well there is no perfect way to measure it, but for players it's a pretty important measure! We can also use aligulac balance report, that had terran lagging behind in summer 2020, protoss ahead of Z/T and Z in the middle ; it's a lot more even nowadays. I don't know though at which dates patches happened so maybe it's due to natural meta changes and not the patches themselves, idk.
Although my posts probably don't make this obvious, I actually think balance is in a pretty good place. My biggest issue right now is the longstanding problem of Protoss being a gimmicky race - a design problem, not a balance one. Just poking fun at Terran whiners because they whine all the freaking time lol.
On January 15 2021 04:07 Waxangel wrote: Guys, give it a month or two so we know if this is an actual shift, or just like that 2 month intermission in 2019 where Protoss won a few tournaments and then Zerg won everything again
On January 15 2021 03:52 Xain0n wrote: This was a much better game! Reynor seems not to look great at the start of the year, it happened in 2020 as well.
On January 15 2021 03:52 TentativePanda wrote: If Serral wins Terrans will whine, bet
Don't tell them, you know they could!
I'll forever remember them whining leading up to and even after the 4 Terran semifinals in GSL we had last year. And it got them more buffs and Zerg nerfs. Other races need to take note and whine while ahead too
Terran had a pretty abysmal IEM so them whining up to that GSL was pretty understandable. I think after that GSL they had a pretty bad streak of results as well from the two season finals in that time-frame being ZvP finals, Zerg dominating all other online events and then GSL S2 being a ZvP finals. Then after that string of results Zerg got nerfed even more and I haven't seen much Terran whine since then.
On January 15 2021 03:52 Xain0n wrote: This was a much better game! Reynor seems not to look great at the start of the year, it happened in 2020 as well.
On January 15 2021 03:52 TentativePanda wrote: If Serral wins Terrans will whine, bet
Don't tell them, you know they could!
I'll forever remember them whining leading up to and even after the 4 Terran semifinals in GSL we had last year. And it got them more buffs and Zerg nerfs. Other races need to take note and whine while ahead too
Well as you can see on liquipedia statistics (awesome job btw!) : Winnings/2020 ; terran still won less prize money than both protoss and zerg (top 10 players of each race), with zerg ahead of the pack ; so ultimately I guess the diverse buffs and nerfs that happened were needed?
Ummmmm...not true at all. Top 10 Terrans have have made a lot more money than Top 10 Protoss. Not sure how you are arriving at your numbers. Hint read the table again.
On January 15 2021 03:52 Xain0n wrote: This was a much better game! Reynor seems not to look great at the start of the year, it happened in 2020 as well.
On January 15 2021 03:52 TentativePanda wrote: If Serral wins Terrans will whine, bet
Don't tell them, you know they could!
I'll forever remember them whining leading up to and even after the 4 Terran semifinals in GSL we had last year. And it got them more buffs and Zerg nerfs. Other races need to take note and whine while ahead too
Well as you can see on liquipedia statistics (awesome job btw!) : Winnings/2020 ; terran still won less prize money than both protoss and zerg (top 10 players of each race), with zerg ahead of the pack ; so ultimately I guess the diverse buffs and nerfs that happened were needed?
Ummmmm...not true at all. Top 10 Terrans have have made a lot more money than Top 10 Protoss. Not sure how you are arriving at your numbers. Hint read the table again.
Top 10 terrans have won 728k$, according to liquipedia, and protoss top 10 777k$, in year 2020. Maybe you are thinking of terrans among top 10 versus protoss among top 10. In this case terran won more indeed, 298k$ with 4 players while Protoss won 237k$ with 3, and Zerg leading with 311k$ with 3 players. I was looking for top 10 or 20 of each race because 10 players kor+for is a low sample size, and I found the top 10 by race.
On January 15 2021 03:52 Xain0n wrote: This was a much better game! Reynor seems not to look great at the start of the year, it happened in 2020 as well.
On January 15 2021 03:52 TentativePanda wrote: If Serral wins Terrans will whine, bet
Don't tell them, you know they could!
I'll forever remember them whining leading up to and even after the 4 Terran semifinals in GSL we had last year. And it got them more buffs and Zerg nerfs. Other races need to take note and whine while ahead too
Well as you can see on liquipedia statistics (awesome job btw!) : Winnings/2020 ; terran still won less prize money than both protoss and zerg (top 10 players of each race), with zerg ahead of the pack ; so ultimately I guess the diverse buffs and nerfs that happened were needed?
Ummmmm...not true at all. Top 10 Terrans have have made a lot more money than Top 10 Protoss. Not sure how you are arriving at your numbers. Hint read the table again.
Top 10 terrans have won 728k$, according to liquipedia, and protoss top 10 777k$, in year 2020. Maybe you are thinking of terrans among top 10 versus protoss among top 10. In this case terran won more indeed, 298k$ with 4 players while Protoss won 237k$ with 3, and Zerg leading with 311k$ with 3 players. I was looking for top 10 or 20 of each race because 10 players kor+for is a low sample size, and I found the top 10 by race.
Wrong. Terrans in total have earned 728k and toss total 777k only the top 10 is different (terrans have more), which kinda makes sense as toss filled the lower regions of tournaments but performed worse at the top (also regions like tw are pretty toss heavy e.g).
On January 15 2021 03:52 Xain0n wrote: This was a much better game! Reynor seems not to look great at the start of the year, it happened in 2020 as well.
On January 15 2021 03:52 TentativePanda wrote: If Serral wins Terrans will whine, bet
Don't tell them, you know they could!
I'll forever remember them whining leading up to and even after the 4 Terran semifinals in GSL we had last year. And it got them more buffs and Zerg nerfs. Other races need to take note and whine while ahead too
Well as you can see on liquipedia statistics (awesome job btw!) : Winnings/2020 ; terran still won less prize money than both protoss and zerg (top 10 players of each race), with zerg ahead of the pack ; so ultimately I guess the diverse buffs and nerfs that happened were needed?
Ummmmm...not true at all. Top 10 Terrans have have made a lot more money than Top 10 Protoss. Not sure how you are arriving at your numbers. Hint read the table again.
Top 10 terrans have won 728k$, according to liquipedia, and protoss top 10 777k$, in year 2020. Maybe you are thinking of terrans among top 10 versus protoss among top 10. In this case terran won more indeed, 298k$ with 4 players while Protoss won 237k$ with 3, and Zerg leading with 311k$ with 3 players. I was looking for top 10 or 20 of each race because 10 players kor+for is a low sample size, and I found the top 10 by race.
$770,000 over top 10 would be an average of $77,000 per player.
This table is confusing, but if we have the true total among all players that won money it’s even better, it’s this accurate across all levels. So it’s top 10 Protoss won 445k$, terran top 10 527k$, zerg top 10 627k$.
Either way I don’t see that as proof that Terran outclassed zergs because of their supposed whines.
What is it about Korean terrans that Reynor struggle with compared to the EU Terrans like Clem/Heromarine? Let's get a discussion going. What do they do that is so much better compared to their EU counterparts that they can beat someone like Reynor? I look at the games, and I don't think I'm good enough to see any major differences.
On January 15 2021 13:13 buzz_bender wrote: What is it about Korean terrans that Reynor struggle with compared to the EU Terrans like Clem/Heromarine? Let's get a discussion going. What do they do that is so much better compared to their EU counterparts that they can beat someone like Reynor? I look at the games, and I don't think I'm good enough to see any major differences.
I’m not sure Reynor really has suffered against Korean Terrans all that much.
Maybe recently a little but just from my recollection he’s handed down a ton of smack downs too.
Just from Dreamhack Finals this year, Summer he beat Maru 2-0 in groups and beat Inno 3-2 in brackets before losing. Fall he won the whole thing beating TY in brackets 3-1. Winter he bowed out in the quarters (to Clem) but not before 2-0s against Inno and Time in groups.
I mean there are other tournaments that he maybe didn’t perform his best but his record against Koreans in the staple cross-region tournament is actually pretty good.
I think he suffers from his development pushing him out of the ‘can compete with the best’ to ‘is expected to beat the best’ and perception has shifted with it, when in reality he’s just trading well against the world’s finest players. Serral has this in an even more extreme way.
As for your question, Korean Terrans basically don’t do anything better than Clem, specifically in the TvZ matchup. He’s up there with Koreans, in my opinion the only foreign Terran to actually be as ‘good’ as the Korean Terrans in the history of SC2. We’ve had players who’ve done amazing things as foreign Terrans, such as a Thorzain but his edge was in the brains not the hands and in a strategy game it’s easier to copy strats than constantly come up with new ones, or be a mechanical one.
Heromarine straight up isn’t as good, he maybe could be though. To come up with a poor analogy, he’s the archetypal standard, correct, technically sound player. He does the textbook things well, if he was a golf player or a tennis player he’d be your archetypal solid tour professional, just solid. Which is fine except sometimes to win the big prizes you need either the technical genius of a Federer or a Woods, or you need to take the big risks and have a crazy 4 days of golf and maybe you get that Major.
Hero is neither a crazy risk taker, nor is he mechanically as solid as a Clem, never mind a Maru.
We have a for fun betting thing on this sight called Liquibets and Hero is my favourite guy to bet on. He’s so solid he’ll almost always beat players I expect him to beat, and almost always lose to players I expect him to lose to.
On a pure technical level his splitting just isn’t as good as Clem’s, Byun’s or Maru’s, indeed to look at today’s games probably even Bunny’s and this adds up to quite a lot problems for him. He also doesn’t have the machine macro of Inno.
You do a lot of splitting, and doing it well is super important to winning engagements. It just adds up to a lot. You win engagements you wouldn’t otherwise, or you save some units and push again with your rally, versus having to retreat completely. You just save units over time and lose less resources which both keeps your aggressive options open for longer, but you’re trading better in a stalemate. Plus you feel more confident to do risky pushes if you’re confident you can micro like a god and make it work.
TvZ is a very trade-based matchup and splitting well, every single time like the really top TvZers do makes every trade that bit better for them.
7-8/10 at basically all areas of the game, which is great and he’s a fantastic player but when you’re up against someone who is 9/10 at everything, or someone who is 10/10 at a few things but bad at others that you can’t exploit you hit a ceiling.
On January 15 2021 13:13 buzz_bender wrote: What is it about Korean terrans that Reynor struggle with compared to the EU Terrans like Clem/Heromarine? Let's get a discussion going. What do they do that is so much better compared to their EU counterparts that they can beat someone like Reynor? I look at the games, and I don't think I'm good enough to see any major differences.
I’m not sure Reynor really has suffered against Korean Terrans all that much.
Maybe recently a little but just from my recollection he’s handed down a ton of smack downs too.
Just from Dreamhack Finals this year, Summer he beat Maru 2-0 in groups and beat Inno 3-2 in brackets before losing. Fall he won the whole thing beating TY in brackets 3-1. Winter he bowed out in the quarters (to Clem) but not before 2-0s against Inno and Time in groups.
I mean there are other tournaments that he maybe didn’t perform his best but his record against Koreans in the staple cross-region tournament is actually pretty good.
Thinking about it, I think I can agree with you here. It could be recently bias, but it does seem like he's struggling against them in recent months. That leads me to think if the Korean Terrans are also adjusting to his playstyle after losing to him earlier on. I also have to also ask if the map pools play into this as well. For example, Maru in Game 5 against Reynor in TSL (I think), was obviously playing a style that counters Reynor's lurker play. To be fair as well, only Maru has played that. The TvZ meta current is exciting! However, I do think Zerg is slightly underpowered currently.
I do agree with Clem that he's prob the only Terran in TvZ that's on par with the Koreans. I still think he still has tremendous room for improvement as I don't think he's as solid as he can be in vT or vP compared to the Koreans.
On January 15 2021 13:13 buzz_bender wrote: What is it about Korean terrans that Reynor struggle with compared to the EU Terrans like Clem/Heromarine? Let's get a discussion going. What do they do that is so much better compared to their EU counterparts that they can beat someone like Reynor? I look at the games, and I don't think I'm good enough to see any major differences.
I think Korean Terrans are better at punishing mistakes and beeing to greedy. And Reynor played very standard and very predictable from what I saw.
Even Serral now throws in the occasional all-in to keep Terrans on their toes, though Serral sucks at all-ins big time.
On January 15 2021 13:13 buzz_bender wrote: What is it about Korean terrans that Reynor struggle with compared to the EU Terrans like Clem/Heromarine? Let's get a discussion going. What do they do that is so much better compared to their EU counterparts that they can beat someone like Reynor? I look at the games, and I don't think I'm good enough to see any major differences.
Cross server makes going mass muta a huge risk. Lag is super punishing vs mines and thors. You might say that Terran has to micro to split more but that is nearly equaled by baneling micro and is overall less punishing than controlling muta flocks.
On January 15 2021 23:59 darklycid wrote: Gotta say showtime and stats so far not playing well at all, both just look kinda off.
It's not particularly surprising for Stats; his game-to-game play has been really inconsistent over the last 6 months or so. Compared to the past he's MUCH more prone to just making dumb mistakes. His highs are still really high (or else he wouldn't have all those good tournament finishes).
Solar's army movement in that game was actually so, so good it's really sad what came of it in the end. He attacked before his own +2 attack was done, he killed the roach warren instead of the evo that was making +3 attack for Serral, he didn't commit to actually fighting until Serral had 3-2 vs his own 2-1. I also think he could have teched after killing Serral's 4th.
On January 16 2021 00:47 Elentos wrote: Solar's army movement in that game was actually so, so good it's really sad what came of it in the end. He attacked before his own +2 attack was done, he killed the roach warren instead of the evo that was making +3 attack for Serral, he didn't commit to actually fighting until Serral had 3-2 vs his own 2-1. I also think he could have teched after killing Serral's 4th.
I think killing the roach warren was good there because he was on a timer anyway regardless of +3; breaking the hydra-roach ratio was what let him get so close to winning some of those later fights
the "GGemini is literally the only Trap fan in the world" bit is funny, but skill wise it seems pretty clear that he was the best Protoss of 2020. (I'd argue 2019 as well)
On January 16 2021 02:58 Waxangel wrote: the "GGemini is literally the only Trap fan in the world" bit is funny, but skill wise it seems pretty clear that he was the best Protoss of 2020 (at worst, shared with Stats)
If you're gonna go 18 months, Classic was still active too.
On January 16 2021 02:58 Waxangel wrote: the "GGemini is literally the only Trap fan in the world" bit is funny, but skill wise it seems pretty clear that he was the best Protoss of 2020 (at worst, shared with Stats)
If you're gonna go 18 months, Classic was still active too.
yeh I edited because I don't want to write some long post about 2019 right now; I'll just say I think it's Trap in 2019 as well
On January 16 2021 02:58 Waxangel wrote: the "GGemini is literally the only Trap fan in the world" bit is funny, but skill wise it seems pretty clear that he was the best Protoss of 2020 (at worst, shared with Stats)
If you're gonna go 18 months, Classic was still active too.
yeh I edited because I don't want to write some long post about 2019 right now; I'll just say I think it's Trap in 2019 as well
Since Classic actually won something and produced a Blizzcon miracle I think it's fair to call them even.
Crap as I feared ByuN gets Serral while Clem has the easier Bunny (or is it not random, something like A1 vs D2 etc ?). Maybe he can beat him again but it’s a tough road ahead for sure. Clem has a good shot at this tournament, his TvP vs Koreans seems better than before, Trap is probably his biggest challenge as well as TY if he makes it to the finals.
On January 14 2021 15:11 whiterabbit wrote: The DreamHack SC2 Masters Last Chance 2021 is the last-chance online event of the ESL Pro Tour 2020/21 Circuit.
What is actual meaning of "Last Chance" in name of the tournament. Liquipedia doesn't explain it. Last chance for what?
Last chance to earn EPT points before IEM Katowice (standings lock after Last Chance). ESL thought it would affect the qualification picture, but didn't really consider that if you're good enough to qualify for Last Chance (top 16-ish player in the world), you prolly already had enough points to lock in an IEM Katowice spot by now. In effect, it's just a tournament for Katowice seeding and money. Still a killer line-up tho :0
On January 16 2021 02:37 Pandain wrote: I mean with how sloppy Serral looked (and not only in his ZvZ series) he is going to struggle hard in any ZvT series he plays going forward.
Not necessarily, his zvt was amazing but he looked miserable the final against Dark.
On January 16 2021 02:37 Pandain wrote: I mean with how sloppy Serral looked (and not only in his ZvZ series) he is going to struggle hard in any ZvT series he plays going forward.
Dude did you even watch Serrals ZvT games lately? 3:0 vs. Maru and Byun at TSL6
On January 16 2021 02:37 Pandain wrote: I mean with how sloppy Serral looked (and not only in his ZvZ series) he is going to struggle hard in any ZvT series he plays going forward.
Dude did you even watch Serrals ZvT games lately? 3:0 vs. Maru and Byun at TSL6
Sure Serral in mid December I would favor vs almost anyone. That is not the Serral who played today, and Serral himself said he was still rusty and not playing his best. Unfortunately, I think rustiness is worst in playing zvt becuase of how fast it is - particuarly if he is going up against any of Byun, Clem, or Bunny.
That was painful to watch. Mech vs Bio games are the worst, one player is just running circles around the map with the other chasing like a dog... 2 times it looked like Innovation will manage to lose this. From that position, it would have been one of the biggest throws ever.
On January 16 2021 23:37 MarianoSC2 wrote: That was painful to watch. Mech vs Bio games are the worst, one player is just running circles around the map with the other chasing like a dog... 2 times it looked like Innovation will manage to lose this. From that position, it would have been one of the biggest throws ever.
Interesting I always found that the mech vs bio dynamic made for awesome games. Not that game specifically though
Wow TY played that... really bad. I definitely thought his "lead" was a little overexaggerated by the casters but he wasn't in a bad spot necessarily. But he's dead dead now
LOL TY misplayed that a bit and got held and still ended up winning off that widow mine shot. To be fair, Inno was closer to winning that than TY was last game and TY stayed for five more minutes
Byun did this build against Dark in GSL Super Tournament. But Dark also tried to do a roach ravager all in to counter and failed so idk how this is gonna go
Man, the novelty of seeing someone figure out a new turtle meta wears off so fast. this is like the 5th or 6th game im seeing byun do this and it's already the thing I hate the most in StarCraft ;0
The problem is even if Serral move commanded his army and lost it all for almost nothing Byun wouldn't get across the map by the time Serral had remaxed. So it's a slow painful death lmao
On January 17 2021 01:16 Waxangel wrote: Man, the novelty of seeing someone figure out a new turtle meta wears off so fast. this is like the 5th or 6th game im seeing byun do this and it's already the thing I hate the most in StarCraft ;0
the thing I hate the 2nd most I should say. BL-Infestor has been my most hated thing since 2012
On January 17 2021 01:16 Waxangel wrote: Man, the novelty of seeing someone figure out a new turtle meta wears off so fast. this is like the 5th or 6th game im seeing byun do this and it's already the thing I hate the most in StarCraft ;0
the thing I hate the 2nd most I should say. BL-Infestor has been my most hated thing since 2012
On January 17 2021 01:16 Waxangel wrote: Man, the novelty of seeing someone figure out a new turtle meta wears off so fast. this is like the 5th or 6th game im seeing byun do this and it's already the thing I hate the most in StarCraft ;0
the thing I hate the 2nd most I should say. BL-Infestor has been my most hated thing since 2012
Casters saying "BEAUTIFUL FUNGALS" is still just as tilting as it was in 2012
On January 17 2021 01:16 Waxangel wrote: Man, the novelty of seeing someone figure out a new turtle meta wears off so fast. this is like the 5th or 6th game im seeing byun do this and it's already the thing I hate the most in StarCraft ;0
the thing I hate the 2nd most I should say. BL-Infestor has been my most hated thing since 2012
Swarmhosts #1 year after year for me.
No reason to fight guys, Serral is giving you both this tournament
On January 17 2021 01:20 sneakyfox wrote: Why in the world is ByuN not making Thors
Short answer is Byun gonna Byun
Long answer is that he spent his bank expecting a longer time spent in the bio/tank vs lurker/hydra/bane phase and was caught off guard by the brood/infestor switch and by the time it would be a good idea to make thors he didn't really have the money for it. But he also seemed to prefer just mass ghost to thors or vikings as a counter unit. So idk
On January 17 2021 01:20 sneakyfox wrote: Why in the world is ByuN not making Thors
Short answer is Byun gonna Byun
Long answer is that he spent his bank expecting a longer time spent in the bio/tank vs lurker/hydra/bane phase and was caught off guard by the brood/infestor switch and by the time it would be a good idea to make thors he didn't really have the money for it. But he also seemed to prefer just mass ghost to thors or vikings as a counter unit. So idk
Well he kept up double tank production long after the BLs appeared so I don't see why he couldn't have squezed out a group of Thors. He had the upgrades too.
Serral (like often in his games) never went above 80 drones this game and was at 63 before that mega surround battle. Raynor should look into that for sure
On January 17 2021 01:20 sneakyfox wrote: Why in the world is ByuN not making Thors
Short answer is Byun gonna Byun
Long answer is that he spent his bank expecting a longer time spent in the bio/tank vs lurker/hydra/bane phase and was caught off guard by the brood/infestor switch and by the time it would be a good idea to make thors he didn't really have the money for it. But he also seemed to prefer just mass ghost to thors or vikings as a counter unit. So idk
Well he kept up double tank production long after the BLs appeared so I don't see why he couldn't have squezed out a group of Thors. He had the upgrades too.
Yeahhhh it really seemed like he thought Serral was bluffing. Like sure you have four brood lords but you're about to hit me with a billion lurkers. And then later sure you have thirteen brood lords but... I'm gonna keep building tanks. Can't fool me.
I just thought it was funny that he built every single thing in the universe before he built a second starport or a third factory. I know his gas bank wasn't huge but still
we were just a tiny bit of scouting away from Serral fans saying "that was a stupid build choice by Serral" and wondering why he doesn't macro every game
On January 17 2021 01:26 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: Serral (like often in his games) never went above 80 drones this game and was at 63 before that mega surround battle. Raynor should look into that for sure
It's cool to see that Reynor seemed a bit ahead of the zvt meta 6 months ago and now Serral seems just way more complete, it's quite back and forth.
If I were Byun I'd be tilted off the face of the earth right now. Just tough. And he has yet to get any damage at all with this battle cruisers the queens are just everywhere
On January 17 2021 01:26 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: Serral (like often in his games) never went above 80 drones this game and was at 63 before that mega surround battle. Raynor should look into that for sure
It's weird, there was a period last year where I thought Reynor was way better at TvZ. The pendulum's definitely swung back though.
On January 17 2021 01:40 Darkhorse wrote: Really hope Byun shows us something here. I would definitely like to see Serral progress as well but I wanna see a good series between these two!
On January 17 2021 01:40 Darkhorse wrote: Really hope Byun shows us something here. I would definitely like to see Serral progress as well but I wanna see a good series between these two!
VODs exist
And I could go back and watch Embiid tearing up the Heat a few nights ago as many times as I want. Doesn't mean I don't wanna see it again the next time they play!
On January 17 2021 01:47 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Wait, what happened? I saw 3 rax and an early roach warren, had to leave for a sec, and now we are macroing?
Pretty much lol. Byun bunkered up at home from the ravagers but didn't have enough to push out. Likewise the ravagers couldn't get up the ramp. So everyone waved and decided to call it off
I'm so upset with Byun's play, he got 160 army supply vs 100 of Serral and still did not dare to attack. Seems like he lost all of his confidence after so many beat up he witnessed.
On January 17 2021 02:12 parksonsc wrote: I'm so upset with Byun's play, he got 160 army supply vs 100 of Serral and still did not dare to attack. Seems like he lost all of his confidence after so many beat up he witnessed.
On January 17 2021 02:08 stilt wrote: Firouzja did the worst throw while serral went mutass around 20min nooo
The chess GM?
Yes, he missed a tactic which allowed Carlsen to checkmate him in 4 moves and it wasn't really hard to see, he prolly lost his focus or sth, even in blitz, that's the type of stuff these guys aren't missing... Had he found it he would probably have won or made a draw as he was in a pretty good position with black. It's in classical, the tata steel tournament.
On January 17 2021 02:08 stilt wrote: Firouzja did the worst throw while serral went mutass around 20min nooo
The chess GM?
Yes, he missed a tactic which allowed Carlsen to checkmate him in 4 moves and it wasn't really hard to see, he prolly lost his focus or sth, even in blitz, that's the type of stuff these guys aren't missing... Had he found it he would probably have won or made a draw as he was in a pretty good position with black. It's in classical, the tata steel tournament.
They are playing classical online? That's fucking insane.
Good games frome Serral, looked a bit dodgy game 1 but the war of attrition works.
On January 17 2021 02:08 stilt wrote: Firouzja did the worst throw while serral went mutass around 20min nooo
The chess GM?
Yes, he missed a tactic which allowed Carlsen to checkmate him in 4 moves and it wasn't really hard to see, he prolly lost his focus or sth, even in blitz, that's the type of stuff these guys aren't missing... Had he found it he would probably have won or made a draw as he was in a pretty good position with black. It's in classical, the tata steel tournament.
They are playing classical online? That's fucking insane.
Good games frome Serral, looked a bit dodgy game 1 but the war of attrition works.
Nop, offline, I guess there are some exemptions like in normal sports. Actually, it was a bit more than 4 but well the knight sacrifice looked pretty deadly even to a terrible player like me :p
I think Serral misread a bit Byun's push/intention in the beginning of the G1, his engagements were perfects tho, the pings didn't help Byun for sure but still.
On January 17 2021 03:42 stilt wrote: Mutas seemed like better... Not that I believed too much on this spire tech overall.
Only if you're happy transitioning into a lategame ZvP on Romanticide after doing some harassment damage with the mutas. You'll want corruptors over mutas if you're trying to kill the opponent outright.
On January 17 2021 04:28 TentativePanda wrote: It's weird to me Clem doesn't know Bunny has a third. He knew he was on 3 CC before the base trade and he didn't kill a CC during it...
Yeah, I am pretty sure he thought he was ahead when it settled down lol
On January 17 2021 04:28 TentativePanda wrote: It's weird to me Clem doesn't know Bunny has a third. He knew he was on 3 CC before the base trade and he didn't kill a CC during it...
Yeah, I am pretty sure he thought he was ahead when it settled down lol
On January 17 2021 04:28 TentativePanda wrote: It's weird to me Clem doesn't know Bunny has a third. He knew he was on 3 CC before the base trade and he didn't kill a CC during it...
Yeah, I am pretty sure he thought he was ahead when it settled down lol
pretty much clem tilted when he pressed f10 + w
Haha yes, shits happen but the marine scout who directly headed for the b3 was a bit tilting to see ngl
On January 17 2021 04:54 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: Bunny was so amazing in army movement and engagements and then one crucial mistake caused him everything. SC2 in an essence...
He made a lot more than one mistake in that game, and so did Clem.
On January 17 2021 04:54 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: Bunny was so amazing in army movement and engagements and then one crucial mistake caused him everything. SC2 in an essence...
He made a lot more than one mistake in that game, and so did Clem.
On January 17 2021 05:27 Elentos wrote: Bunny took so many bad fights this series that Clem didn't even force him to, sad end to his run after the great group stage.
Bunny and RagnaroK should be tied in EPT points now. Do they flip a coin for seeding?
2.2.2 Tiebreakers If two or more players are tied on one of the standings for relevant positions (i.e. it makes a difference in some way which one of them is ahead and which one behind), the following tiebreakers will be used in that order. If at any point the group of still tied players gets reduced or divided into several smaller groups, those groups are considered anew starting from the first point on. 1. Points in the other main region standings 2. Rank in the most recent “main event” (IEM event or online season, GSL Season, DHM event or online season) where not both had the same rank 3. Rank in the most recent competition rewarding Korea or EPT points where not both had the same rank 4. If players regions and time allow it, online decider matches 5. Administration discretion
On January 17 2021 05:27 Elentos wrote: Bunny took so many bad fights this series that Clem didn't even force him to, sad end to his run after the great group stage.
Bunny and RagnaroK should be tied in EPT points now. Do they flip a coin for seeding?
2.2.2 Tiebreakers If two or more players are tied on one of the standings for relevant positions (i.e. it makes a difference in some way which one of them is ahead and which one behind), the following tiebreakers will be used in that order. If at any point the group of still tied players gets reduced or divided into several smaller groups, those groups are considered anew starting from the first point on. 1. Points in the other main region standings 2. Rank in the most recent “main event” (IEM event or online season, GSL Season, DHM event or online season) where not both had the same rank 3. Rank in the most recent competition rewarding Korea or EPT points where not both had the same rank 4. If players regions and time allow it, online decider matches 5. Administration discretion
Which I guess means Bunny has the higher seed?
Seems like it. I'm sad tie breaker matches are only the 4th option and admin corruption only the 5th
Gonna guess Serral vs Trap in the finals. They're both so good vs T. Rooting for Clem though - SC2 has been in need of a dominant foreign Terran since release day!
I think Solar had the best chance of beating Serral (again), and I think Serral is most likely to win the tournament. As long as we see good games in the semis and finals, I don't really care who wins though
Solar being knocked out was a blessing for Serral... I can't see how a third ZvT (in the finals) would be any different than his success vs. ByuN and TY. And against Trap... well, swarm hosts.
Serral was having the most success in zvt with hydra-bling-viper in 2018 and is back to this combo serving him right. Muta style does not really fit him. Lets see if he tries at least once this series though
On January 17 2021 23:43 Waxangel wrote: Serral's ZvT looking pretty good again after a sus October-November
The difference is the base composition imo. I'm really happy to see Serral looking solid with ling bane hydra instead of trying to brute force ling bane muta through mines, especially with cross-server lag.
On January 17 2021 23:46 Poopi wrote: Did TY ever beat Serral since 2018? When I think of TY vs Serral I only remember TY getting smashed time and time again
Not really. TY won a bo1 this year and they technically tied 3-3 at HSC XIX.
On January 17 2021 23:46 Poopi wrote: Did TY ever beat Serral since 2018? When I think of TY vs Serral I only remember TY getting smashed time and time again
Not really. TY won a bo1 this year and they technically tied 3-3 at HSC XIX.
That was a hot meme, I'm disappointed he didn't bust out 2-1-1 into 2 port BC this series.
I think with what he has shown TY would get beaten even offline with no lag, but ByuN showed real promise. Hopefully Katowice can be held offline without spectators at least
On January 17 2021 23:45 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: Serral was having the most success in zvt with hydra-bling-viper in 2018 and is back to this combo serving him right. Muta style does not really fit him. Lets see if he tries at least once this series though
Case in point. The lost resources tab must look disgusting for Serral this game.
On January 17 2021 23:46 Poopi wrote: Did TY ever beat Serral since 2018? When I think of TY vs Serral I only remember TY getting smashed time and time again
He beats him once during the wctl with a sort of 2-1-1 followed by bc, it was bo1 tho
On January 18 2021 00:14 Elentos wrote: The story of this series for TY: walking into fights without being ready for them
I think he could have won games 1 and 3
Especially the third yes, I didn't find it very him very decisive but overall despite his results in gsl I don't find his tvz impressive in comparaison to Byun/Maru.
Serral's ZvT and ZvP were looking extremely good last TSL too, it's just his ZvZ that appears to be worse than his average in 2020(even if those were just a couple of series).
I don't dislike Trap's or Clem's chances against him tho, they might be the two non Zerg players who are best suited to beat Serral at the moment; it's true that Trap is 0-8 in the head to head overall but he's now a champion and he has undoubtly the best ZvP in the world right now.
On January 18 2021 00:14 Elentos wrote: The story of this series for TY: walking into fights without being ready for them
I think he could have won games 1 and 3
Especially the third yes, I didn't find it very him very decisive but overall despite his results in gsl I don't find his tvz impressive in comparaison to Byun/Maru.
Well TY is a preparation player. Code S is his thing. If you give him a week he can take apart anyone with his builds, mindgames, tactics. Mechanically, he's not as good as ByuN or Maru and mechanics are much more important in weekenders.
Clem said yesterday he favours Cure’s style and Serral did have hard time against Cure at KOG and against Clem recently. Would be so cool to have Clem winning this one, he got some tough losses after his inaugural title at the end of 2020, it would help his confidence and motivation to get another one ahead of Katowice
On January 18 2021 00:27 Waxangel wrote: 2 days ago Serral was washed, today he's invincible—let's see where Serral fan mood whiplash takes us in 2 hours
That would be more like Twitch chat than any reasonable fan. Also, I didn't notice any comment suggesting than anything other than Serral's ZvZ was somehow disappointing.
On January 18 2021 00:28 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: Clem said yesterday he favours Cure’s style and Serral did have hard time against Cure at KOG and against Clem recently. Would be so cool to have Clem winning this one, he got some tough losses after his inaugural title at the end of 2020, it would help his confidence and motivation to get another one ahead of Katowice
I agree, I think Cure's style would be the right idea
As for Clem's results, he had a terrible day at ASUS ROG and was barely edged out by Byun at TSL at the end of last year but in 2021, he has won OSC Wold Championship and he has shown improvements in TvT. I guess he should already be reasonably confident going into Katowice.
On January 18 2021 00:27 Waxangel wrote: 2 days ago Serral was washed, today he's invincible—let's see where Serral fan mood whiplash takes us in 2 hours
That would be more like Twitch chat than any reasonable fan. Also, I didn't notice any comment suggesting than anything other than Serral's ZvZ was somehow disappointing.
Yeah, that is more Twitch chat than anything else. Serral looked a bit shaky at the start, but now he seems back on his a-game. What drastically has affected his zvz is the statement that "He doesnt like to play against mootas", which has made everyone try to either rush or fake them against Serral. Now he is almost always the one who has to guess what opponent is doing and "has to" try to end game or get a good lead before mutas. That makes him much more predictable. Its kinda interesting (and sad) to see how long does that affect his zvz. And if players like Dark, Reynor, Solar or even Elazer or Lambo can use that fact to their advantage.
On January 18 2021 00:28 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: Clem said yesterday he favours Cure’s style and Serral did have hard time against Cure at KOG and against Clem recently. Would be so cool to have Clem winning this one, he got some tough losses after his inaugural title at the end of 2020, it would help his confidence and motivation to get another one ahead of Katowice
I agree, I think Cure's style would be the right idea
I have to assume Cure's style is part of the reason Serral plays more hydra again. Much better against mines.
On January 18 2021 00:27 Waxangel wrote: 2 days ago Serral was washed, today he's invincible—let's see where Serral fan mood whiplash takes us in 2 hours
That would be more like Twitch chat than any reasonable fan. Also, I didn't notice any comment suggesting than anything other than Serral's ZvZ was somehow disappointing.
Yeah, that is more Twitch chat than anything else. Serral looked a bit shaky at the start, but now he seems back on his a-game. What drastically has affected his zvz is the statement that "He doesnt like to play against mootas", which has made everyone try to either rush or fake them against Serral. Now he is almost always the one who has to guess what opponent is doing and "has to" try to end game or get a good lead before mutas. That makes him much more predictable. Its kinda interesting (and sad) to see how long does that affect his zvz. And if players like Dark, Reynor, Solar or even Elazer or Lambo can use that fact to their advantage.
Yes, I agree. It's also known that Serral doesn't like to play mootas and lately he seemed compelled to try to allin before said mootas could come out way more often than it would have been necessary(maybe).
Surgical moves from Trap! Playing aggressively is Clem's nature, if he perfected a more defensive style and improved his decision making he'd become unstoppable.
So now we'll have a 'Does Protoss need a ___'? post-mortem thread instead of a 'Has Korean SC2 hit rock bottom?'. The latter would've been more fun. Sad...
For what it's worth, Serral also had a 6-0 record vs Zest prior to meeting him in the first major event of 2020 (Katowice), and we all know what happened there.
On January 18 2021 01:48 FuRong wrote: For what it's worth, Serral also had a 6-0 record vs Zest prior to meeting him in the first major event of 2020 (Katowice), and we all know what happened there.
Yep and we all know Trap is a scary dude that can bring just crazy decisive plays, so there is lots to hope for!
On January 18 2021 01:49 AzAlexZ wrote: LOL 5 Terrans Ro8 but 0 in Finals, but hey still Terran master race lol
2 TvTs means that only 3 even have the potential to move on from the quarters to the semis, because math. Then Serral knocked out 2 of the 3 remaining Terrans, which isn't surprising, because Serral. And then Trap beat Clem, which isn't surprising at all, because Trap.
Whether or not Terran is still the master race, the fact that the finals is Serral vs. Trap doesn't disprove anything.
On January 18 2021 01:49 AzAlexZ wrote: LOL 5 Terrans Ro8 but 0 in Finals, but hey still Terran master race lol
2 TvTs means that only 3 even have the potential to move on from the quarters to the semis, because math. Then Serral knocked out 2 of the 3 remaining Terrans, which isn't surprising, because Serral. And then Trap beat Clem, which isn't surprising at all, because Trap.
Whether or not Terran is still the master race, the fact that the finals is Serral vs. Trap doesn't disprove anything.
Can’t we have ByuN wins at least 1 game vs Serral, because ByuN? Same with TY...
Reynor choked so we had Bunny qualify, other than him the remaining terrans were expected to qualify in their groups. Maybe Zest could have beaten Clem depending on his form.
On January 18 2021 01:49 AzAlexZ wrote: LOL 5 Terrans Ro8 but 0 in Finals, but hey still Terran master race lol
2 TvTs means that only 3 even have the potential to move on from the quarters to the semis, because math. Then Serral knocked out 2 of the 3 remaining Terrans, which isn't surprising, because Serral. And then Trap beat Clem, which isn't surprising at all, because Trap.
Whether or not Terran is still the master race, the fact that the finals is Serral vs. Trap doesn't disprove anything.
Can’t we have ByuN wins at least 1 game vs Serral, because ByuN? Same with TY...
Az was only looking at who won, not scores/performance... another issue with Az's assessment (besides it being a non sequitur).
Up until the oracles died Trap's defense was incredible and then one mistake and he's just dead... I'm so tired of ZvP finals that look like this. Can't believe it's been 3 years of this.
On January 18 2021 02:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Those swarm host locusts just... flew into the main base and killed the nexus... from 100% to 0%. Seriously?
The game was decided before that though. Trap really did not shine at defending this, tbh.
tournament thread full of balance whiners LUL. If zerg was so OP other zergs would have done better in this tournament. It's just simply Serral being Serral. Accept your bonjwa.
On January 18 2021 02:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Those swarm host locusts just... flew into the main base and killed the nexus... from 100% to 0%. Seriously?
The game was decided before that though. Trap really did not shine at defending this, tbh.
What should he have done better? Even if he kept the two oracles alive that would not have helped him
And it's hard to protect the collussus when serral is literally in his natural
On January 18 2021 02:41 CicadaSC wrote: tournament thread full of balance whiners LUL. If zerg was so OP other zergs would have done better in this tournament. It's just simply Serral being Serral. Accept your bonjwa.
On January 18 2021 02:41 CicadaSC wrote: tournament thread full of balance whiners LUL. If zerg was so OP other zergs would have done better in this tournament. It's just simply Serral being Serral. Accept your bonjwa.
Yeah Serral is just that good.
Don't care how good or bad stuff is, swarm host games are just shit and should not exist.
On January 18 2021 02:41 CicadaSC wrote: tournament thread full of balance whiners LUL. If zerg was so OP other zergs would have done better in this tournament. It's just simply Serral being Serral. Accept your bonjwa.
thing is that this is like the 10th (or more, not sure) high stake game during the last year or so that looked exactly like this. It didn't really matter what the Protoss did the result was the same
On January 18 2021 02:41 CicadaSC wrote: tournament thread full of balance whiners LUL. If zerg was so OP other zergs would have done better in this tournament. It's just simply Serral being Serral. Accept your bonjwa.
thing is that this is like the 10th (or more, not sure) high stake game during the last year or so that looked exactly like this. It didn't really matter what the Protoss did the result was the same
Exactly. I would bet that this strat win rate is over 90% when starting from even positions. And all games are shitty.
On January 18 2021 02:39 Xamo wrote: Sadly swarm hosts from an even position are auto-gg....
Trap*missed every single disruptive shot and birthed a colossus into a pile of roach vomit which didn’t help
You can aim with a disruptor shot, but the only way to guarantee a good hit is for the other player to mis-micro and not dodge the shot.
Not against ravagers/roach
I guess if the disruptor is literally touching the roaches, sure, but then the disruptor would automatically die, even if it gets off one shot. From a reasonable, safe range away, the roaches could easily split or run.
On January 18 2021 02:50 Waxangel wrote: I just wish Blizz had spent as much time dicking around with the Swarm Host as they did with seeker/antiarmor missile
On January 18 2021 02:50 Waxangel wrote: I just wish Blizz had spent as much time dicking around with the Swarm Host as they did with seeker/antiarmor missile
At least back in the day they were obsessed with keeping the zerg thematic idea of "free units" - as much as the community hates that now for whatever reason blizzard loved the idea and kept stating they loved how "zergy" it was
On January 18 2021 02:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Wow, Trap won that one! I guess he managed to attack just slightly before Serral was ready?
Yes. Also Serral made a bad choice with the spire, i think.
I've seen a lot of high level zergs try the mass corruptors off one spire vs 2stargate void rays, on romanticide specifically. I have never seen it work.
I mean, imagine if had 20 hydras instead of the useless corruptors in that fight that lost him the game.
On January 18 2021 02:50 Waxangel wrote: I just wish Blizz had spent as much time dicking around with the Swarm Host as they did with seeker/antiarmor missile
I feel like the novelty of seeing Protoss crush Zerg in the late-game is going to wear off by Katowice and I'll be able to start complaining about balance again
On January 18 2021 03:20 Penev wrote: classic shroud into lose
Lose into shroud.
On January 18 2021 03:21 Waxangel wrote: I feel like the novelty of seeing Protoss crush Zerg in the late-game is going to wear off by Katowice and I'll be able to start complaining about balance again
Zerg still owes Protoss for three years of unwinnable PvZs, so even if this gives shit games I'm kinda okay with it.
I don't mind 12 pools being a thing in ZvP tbh--makes for a more interesting opening period. It's the follow-ups with queen walks that are a bit harder to swallow.
On January 18 2021 03:36 Waxangel wrote: by virtue of going 7 games I guess it's an above-average final tho I couldn't point out a particularly thrilling game.
Yeah I think that's a fair assessment. I think game 5 - the one with carriers for a hot second - was the least bad game imo.
I personally don't mind Swarm Hosts if I see them once in a while and I love Skytoss; I also don't like TvT so I guess that my tastes are pretty fringe.
Meanwhile we got to g7, that's a nice thing by itself.
On January 18 2021 03:36 Waxangel wrote: by virtue of going 7 games I guess it's an above-average final tho I couldn't point out a particularly thrilling game.
The best game so far was average at best. The quantity can't save this tbh.
On January 18 2021 03:38 sneakyfox wrote: What if Trap just goes mass blink DTs and snipes the hive before it finishes?
the funny thing is that Rogue double speed-lord scouted and actually saw the researching dark shrine; he just couldn't deduce what the plan actually was
On January 18 2021 03:38 sneakyfox wrote: What if Trap just goes mass blink DTs and snipes the hive before it finishes?
the funny thing is that Rogue double speed-lord scouted and actually saw the researching dark shrine; he just couldn't deduce what the plan actually was
On January 18 2021 03:38 sneakyfox wrote: What if Trap just goes mass blink DTs and snipes the hive before it finishes?
the funny thing is that Rogue double speed-lord scouted and actually saw the researching dark shrine; he just couldn't deduce what the plan actually was
Probably thought Classic had lost his mind
Little did he know that Classic was just playing out of his mind.
Serral felt rusty coming into this tournament so I guess that's why he isn't as disappointed as he usually is after losing a final.
On a side note, after 2018 Serral has lost all 3 of the Premier finals where he was forced to play to the last map and has been eliminated 11 times from tournaments this way; it seems that he has developed kind of an issue with decider maps.
On January 18 2021 04:25 Waxangel wrote: casters are so behind; they should really get aboard wax's "unprecedented age of parity" narrative
Every year prior to 2018 was a year of parity where any top 15 player had a chance of winning any tournament. We were spoiled by serral and maru, but the "the tournament favorite will actually win the tournament" is a recent phenomenon
On January 18 2021 04:25 Waxangel wrote: casters are so behind; they should really get aboard wax's "unprecedented age of parity" narrative
Every year prior to 2018 was a year of parity where any top 15 player had a chance of winning any tournament. We were spoiled by serral and maru, but the "the tournament favorite will actually win the tournament" is a recent phenomenon
On January 18 2021 03:52 Decendos wrote: Good to See its Not only me losing every Single game to voids into turtle Storm skytoss.
On the other Hand sad to See even serral All inning every game vs this strat cause He thinks its unbeatable lategame.
Still grats to trap really nice guy!!
I don‘t even think its about the composition beeing unbeatable, but which sane player wants to turtle on spore/viper for 30 minutes until you maybe manage to abduct enough to be somewhat costefficent, because you will always loose a direct engagement?
The design is just bad and always has been. Nobody wants to play spore/turret against it.
On January 18 2021 04:25 Waxangel wrote: casters are so behind; they should really get aboard wax's "unprecedented age of parity" narrative
Every year prior to 2018 was a year of parity where any top 15 player had a chance of winning any tournament. We were spoiled by serral and maru, but the "the tournament favorite will actually win the tournament" is a recent phenomenon
that's what I wrote
Oh I just saw the word "unprecedented" and was picking at that haha
Serral for over a year now seems to be in an odd rotation of strength. At any given moment, he seems like the world's best player in certain matchups, but vulnerable in others. For a time, he felt unbeatable other than by Reynor in ZvZ. Then, he lost series to Cure, Inno, ByuN, Clem, and Maru. Recently, he looks unbeatable in ZvT, but has also lost in ZvZ to Dark and Solar, and in ZvP to ShoWTimE and Trap.
It feels like he can train himself up to an unbeatable level in any matchup, but he can't maintain that level in a universal sense. Clearly one of the best players in the world under any circumstance. I would consider TY the world's best player, despite his having been roundly beaten by Serral this weekend, but Serral remains a certain favorite at Katowice.
On January 18 2021 07:16 makeSC2greatAgain wrote: Missed the finals. Quick yes or no question. Is the finals worth watching or not? The 4-3 says yes, but games could be low quality.
Thank you.
Not really. It was mostly timings from either side.
On January 18 2021 07:16 makeSC2greatAgain wrote: Missed the finals. Quick yes or no question. Is the finals worth watching or not? The 4-3 says yes, but games could be low quality.
Thank you.
Not really. It was mostly timings from either side.
Thanks man! I actually missed every single game. Do you have outstanding games that you'd recommend?
On January 18 2021 06:34 irvnasty wrote: Serral for over a year now seems to be in an odd rotation of strength. At any given moment, he seems like the world's best player in certain matchups, but vulnerable in others. For a time, he felt unbeatable other than by Reynor in ZvZ. Then, he lost series to Cure, Inno, ByuN, Clem, and Maru. Recently, he looks unbeatable in ZvT, but has also lost in ZvZ to Dark and Solar, and in ZvP to ShoWTimE and Trap.
It feels like he can train himself up to an unbeatable level in any matchup, but he can't maintain that level in a universal sense. Clearly one of the best players in the world under any circumstance. I would consider TY the world's best player, despite his having been roundly beaten by Serral this weekend, but Serral remains a certain favorite at Katowice.
Trap’s got to be up there now surely. He seems to have undergone Serral’s journey only in reverse. Top tier PvT, decent if not outstanding PvP and a PvZ that was a real bad weakness to have considering who he was having to face. He’s kept the stellar PvT, his PvP is better and his PvZ is close to the best around (although I think the world’s best ZvPers are better still).
GSL TY is on another level to weekender TY, although he’s still obviously good even in his weaker form.
Agreed on Serral, he’s still a monster but not quite as scary as a while ago where it seemed he was equally fearsome across all matchups.
On January 18 2021 06:34 irvnasty wrote: Serral for over a year now seems to be in an odd rotation of strength. At any given moment, he seems like the world's best player in certain matchups, but vulnerable in others. For a time, he felt unbeatable other than by Reynor in ZvZ. Then, he lost series to Cure, Inno, ByuN, Clem, and Maru. Recently, he looks unbeatable in ZvT, but has also lost in ZvZ to Dark and Solar, and in ZvP to ShoWTimE and Trap.
It feels like he can train himself up to an unbeatable level in any matchup, but he can't maintain that level in a universal sense. Clearly one of the best players in the world under any circumstance. I would consider TY the world's best player, despite his having been roundly beaten by Serral this weekend, but Serral remains a certain favorite at Katowice.
The results of the last two months seem to suggest that Trap is the best player in the world right now. His PvP is the best in the world(on par with Stats), his PvZ is by far the best in the world and his PvT is still top tier(might be the best in the world but what was his best matchup is the one that has progressed the least); he has also just won three titles, breaking a streak of six lost finals.
I don't think that Serral has gone through an odd rotation of strenght. His ZvZ slowly went downhill after Katowice earlier this year because of the new maps and meta shifts and it has never rose to its 2018/2019 level; Serral's last series were especially bad but he was eliminated by Elazer from TSL 5 as early as May 2020(and lost earlier to him in the first HSC he won). Serral's ZvT has been generally strong this year, suffering from Terran being ahead following Cure's footsteps after KoB; he seems to have adjusted his compositions, differently from Reynor. Serral's ZvP has been great, he was literally unbeatable the whole year except for struggling with adepts timing in Katowice and the latest Skytoss resurgence.
On January 18 2021 06:34 irvnasty wrote: Serral for over a year now seems to be in an odd rotation of strength. At any given moment, he seems like the world's best player in certain matchups, but vulnerable in others. For a time, he felt unbeatable other than by Reynor in ZvZ. Then, he lost series to Cure, Inno, ByuN, Clem, and Maru. Recently, he looks unbeatable in ZvT, but has also lost in ZvZ to Dark and Solar, and in ZvP to ShoWTimE and Trap.
It feels like he can train himself up to an unbeatable level in any matchup, but he can't maintain that level in a universal sense. Clearly one of the best players in the world under any circumstance. I would consider TY the world's best player, despite his having been roundly beaten by Serral this weekend, but Serral remains a certain favorite at Katowice.
The results of the last two months seem to suggest that Trap is the best player in the world right now. His PvP is the best in the world(on par with Stats), his PvZ is by far the best in the world and his PvT is still top tier(might be the best in the world but what was his best matchup is the one that has progressed the least); he has also just won three titles, breaking a streak of six lost finals.
I don't think that Serral has gone through an odd rotation of strenght. His ZvZ slowly went downhill after Katowice earlier this year because of the new maps and meta shifts and it has never rose to its 2018/2019 level; Serral's last series were especially bad but he was eliminated by Elazer from TSL 5 as early as May 2020(and lost earlier to him in the first HSC he won). Serral's ZvT has been generally strong this year, suffering from Terran being ahead following Cure's footsteps after KoB; he seems to have adjusted his compositions, differently from Reynor. Serral's ZvP has been great, he was literally unbeatable the whole year except for struggling with adepts timing in Katowice and the latest Skytoss resurgence.
Trap is the best in the world now that he’s 1-8 vs Serral after a narrow 4-3 victory?
On January 18 2021 06:34 irvnasty wrote: Serral for over a year now seems to be in an odd rotation of strength. At any given moment, he seems like the world's best player in certain matchups, but vulnerable in others. For a time, he felt unbeatable other than by Reynor in ZvZ. Then, he lost series to Cure, Inno, ByuN, Clem, and Maru. Recently, he looks unbeatable in ZvT, but has also lost in ZvZ to Dark and Solar, and in ZvP to ShoWTimE and Trap.
It feels like he can train himself up to an unbeatable level in any matchup, but he can't maintain that level in a universal sense. Clearly one of the best players in the world under any circumstance. I would consider TY the world's best player, despite his having been roundly beaten by Serral this weekend, but Serral remains a certain favorite at Katowice.
The results of the last two months seem to suggest that Trap is the best player in the world right now. His PvP is the best in the world(on par with Stats), his PvZ is by far the best in the world and his PvT is still top tier(might be the best in the world but what was his best matchup is the one that has progressed the least); he has also just won three titles, breaking a streak of six lost finals.
I don't think that Serral has gone through an odd rotation of strenght. His ZvZ slowly went downhill after Katowice earlier this year because of the new maps and meta shifts and it has never rose to its 2018/2019 level; Serral's last series were especially bad but he was eliminated by Elazer from TSL 5 as early as May 2020(and lost earlier to him in the first HSC he won). Serral's ZvT has been generally strong this year, suffering from Terran being ahead following Cure's footsteps after KoB; he seems to have adjusted his compositions, differently from Reynor. Serral's ZvP has been great, he was literally unbeatable the whole year except for struggling with adepts timing in Katowice and the latest Skytoss resurgence.
Trap is the best in the world now that he’s 1-8 vs Serral after a narrow 4-3 victory?
How is Trap's career record against Serral relevant when we are speaking of his current shape?
I agree with Waxangel, we are in a new age of parity; if I had, however, to name a single player as the best in the world right now, I'd say Trap. I already listed the reasons for my pick in the post you replied to.
On January 18 2021 06:34 irvnasty wrote: Serral for over a year now seems to be in an odd rotation of strength. At any given moment, he seems like the world's best player in certain matchups, but vulnerable in others. For a time, he felt unbeatable other than by Reynor in ZvZ. Then, he lost series to Cure, Inno, ByuN, Clem, and Maru. Recently, he looks unbeatable in ZvT, but has also lost in ZvZ to Dark and Solar, and in ZvP to ShoWTimE and Trap.
It feels like he can train himself up to an unbeatable level in any matchup, but he can't maintain that level in a universal sense. Clearly one of the best players in the world under any circumstance. I would consider TY the world's best player, despite his having been roundly beaten by Serral this weekend, but Serral remains a certain favorite at Katowice.
The results of the last two months seem to suggest that Trap is the best player in the world right now. His PvP is the best in the world(on par with Stats), his PvZ is by far the best in the world and his PvT is still top tier(might be the best in the world but what was his best matchup is the one that has progressed the least); he has also just won three titles, breaking a streak of six lost finals.
I don't think that Serral has gone through an odd rotation of strenght. His ZvZ slowly went downhill after Katowice earlier this year because of the new maps and meta shifts and it has never rose to its 2018/2019 level; Serral's last series were especially bad but he was eliminated by Elazer from TSL 5 as early as May 2020(and lost earlier to him in the first HSC he won). Serral's ZvT has been generally strong this year, suffering from Terran being ahead following Cure's footsteps after KoB; he seems to have adjusted his compositions, differently from Reynor. Serral's ZvP has been great, he was literally unbeatable the whole year except for struggling with adepts timing in Katowice and the latest Skytoss resurgence.
Trap is the best in the world now that he’s 1-8 vs Serral after a narrow 4-3 victory?
Yes. He’s been super consistent and rather underrated for some reason for over a year now.
If power ranks had been coming out I think he’d have been a lock for the top 10 for that span, and if one was to come out next week I can’t see another candidate for the top spot given his two wins recently, as well as the additional breaking of the Protoss title drought, staving off the pull into Kong status etc.
I don’t think we’ve had a real clear outstanding player clear of the field player over an extended period since 2018 Maru and Serral, and even then their achievements were subject to considerable debate because they happened in the same timespan.
Over the pretty recent past it’s got to be Trap, but I don’t think that makes him a real clear best in the world like we’ve seen in the past.
I think any discussion regarding the best players should wait until after Katowice. I would assume that many players took a break and just started practicing again recently and some even confirmed this. So while I definitely see Trap to be among the big favorites in Katowice, i could see some power shift happening compared to the last few tournaments.
Suddenly I just turned off twitch after the score became 3-1 thinking that Trap will not make comeback just like himself in previous DH tournaments.
Now, I just happened to know that Trap was winning. It seemed like Trap already had full confidence after winning its first tournament in several years and became a new killer from ex Jin air team after SoS, Maru, and Rogue, just like Rogue in 2017, winning championship over other tournaments consecutively in spans of not more than 3 months.
On January 18 2021 10:40 Swisslink wrote: I think any discussion regarding the best players should wait until after Katowice. I would assume that many players took a break and just started practicing again recently and some even confirmed this. So while I definitely see Trap to be among the big favorites in Katowice, i could see some power shift happening compared to the last few tournaments.
Absolutely, that said I just think Trap deserves more credit is all, he’s really improved his worst matchup and pushed through quite a few silvers and that mental block, from memory he’s either equalled or now holds singularly the record for successive Code S playoff placings etc.
Even as knowledgable a guy as Artosis would borderline masturbate in casts over how good Stats is and if it’s Trap he’s framed as some pretty decent Protoss.
It’s more against that backdrop I think Trap deserves kudos as the best player out there, at least for the last month.
As for Katowice yeah much is up in the air. I’m really hoping it’s not online, as much as I think we’ve still seen quality SC2 without offline tournaments, latency is clearly going to tip scales, especially in TvZ, in either direction.
My only nailed on prediction for Katowice is that Wombat’s Law will hold true. Given the tricky/build centric nature of the PvZ matchup a Protoss won’t win if they have to play more than one Zerg in the knockout phase.
Aside from innumerable other tournies we’ve seen if play out the last two Katowices, with Stats and Zest respectively.
No Protoss is good enough at PvZ to keep builds in their pocket vs Zerg in the Ro8 onwards, they’ll bring their best and if they win the next Zerg will counter them pretty hard.
Luckily for Trap and other Protoss players Terrans are much more competitive in tournaments these days, so having to PvZ your way to winning titles is less of a given.
PS I realise Trap had to beat two Zergs to win this tournament, but that’s an exception, by and large Wombat’s Law holds
On January 18 2021 06:34 irvnasty wrote: Serral for over a year now seems to be in an odd rotation of strength. At any given moment, he seems like the world's best player in certain matchups, but vulnerable in others. For a time, he felt unbeatable other than by Reynor in ZvZ. Then, he lost series to Cure, Inno, ByuN, Clem, and Maru. Recently, he looks unbeatable in ZvT, but has also lost in ZvZ to Dark and Solar, and in ZvP to ShoWTimE and Trap.
It feels like he can train himself up to an unbeatable level in any matchup, but he can't maintain that level in a universal sense. Clearly one of the best players in the world under any circumstance. I would consider TY the world's best player, despite his having been roundly beaten by Serral this weekend, but Serral remains a certain favorite at Katowice.
The results of the last two months seem to suggest that Trap is the best player in the world right now. His PvP is the best in the world(on par with Stats), his PvZ is by far the best in the world and his PvT is still top tier(might be the best in the world but what was his best matchup is the one that has progressed the least); he has also just won three titles, breaking a streak of six lost finals.
I don't think that Serral has gone through an odd rotation of strenght. His ZvZ slowly went downhill after Katowice earlier this year because of the new maps and meta shifts and it has never rose to its 2018/2019 level; Serral's last series were especially bad but he was eliminated by Elazer from TSL 5 as early as May 2020(and lost earlier to him in the first HSC he won). Serral's ZvT has been generally strong this year, suffering from Terran being ahead following Cure's footsteps after KoB; he seems to have adjusted his compositions, differently from Reynor. Serral's ZvP has been great, he was literally unbeatable the whole year except for struggling with adepts timing in Katowice and the latest Skytoss resurgence.
I don't know if "best player in the world" carries so much weight right now.
Like, I'd still pick Serral as the highest percent chance to win any given event right now, but it's down to like, ionno, 20% chance to win a 16-man, where 2nd place might be 15%. The top players in the scene are really close, and in single elimination formats, the bracket draw has become SUPER important (and it was always really important).
Anyway this is a pretty exciting place for the scene to be in ahead of Katowice
On January 18 2021 10:40 Swisslink wrote: I think any discussion regarding the best players should wait until after Katowice. I would assume that many players took a break and just started practicing again recently and some even confirmed this. So while I definitely see Trap to be among the big favorites in Katowice, i could see some power shift happening compared to the last few tournaments.
Absolutely, that said I just think Trap deserves more credit is all, he’s really improved his worst matchup and pushed through quite a few silvers and that mental block, from memory he’s either equalled or now holds singularly the record for successive Code S playoff placings etc.
Even as knowledgable a guy as Artosis would borderline masturbate in casts over how good Stats is and if it’s Trap he’s framed as some pretty decent Protoss.
It’s more against that backdrop I think Trap deserves kudos as the best player out there, at least for the last month.
Yeah,imo Trap has been prettymuch the no 1 Protoss for almost 2 years now. He had amazing results in 2019 and 2020. And he s been insanely consistent both in Code Sand ans other tourney
Woke up to hearing the finals were amazing, and boy it was a good series. Trap FINALLY takes down Serral in a finals of all places. Practically a reverse sweep too...
Congrats to him, GladPlane.jpg is smiling from the heavens
Just got around to watching the finals (stupid work) and hot damn that was a series! Trap's void ray build looks hella strong against Zergs right now. Nice to see a Protoss finally taking the crown in a stacked tournament too. Also agree with Wax that nobody seems head and shoulders above the rest of the competition right now - props to whoever wins their liquibets lol.
On January 18 2021 06:34 irvnasty wrote: Serral for over a year now seems to be in an odd rotation of strength. At any given moment, he seems like the world's best player in certain matchups, but vulnerable in others. For a time, he felt unbeatable other than by Reynor in ZvZ. Then, he lost series to Cure, Inno, ByuN, Clem, and Maru. Recently, he looks unbeatable in ZvT, but has also lost in ZvZ to Dark and Solar, and in ZvP to ShoWTimE and Trap.
It feels like he can train himself up to an unbeatable level in any matchup, but he can't maintain that level in a universal sense. Clearly one of the best players in the world under any circumstance. I would consider TY the world's best player, despite his having been roundly beaten by Serral this weekend, but Serral remains a certain favorite at Katowice.
The results of the last two months seem to suggest that Trap is the best player in the world right now. His PvP is the best in the world(on par with Stats), his PvZ is by far the best in the world and his PvT is still top tier(might be the best in the world but what was his best matchup is the one that has progressed the least); he has also just won three titles, breaking a streak of six lost finals.
I don't think that Serral has gone through an odd rotation of strenght. His ZvZ slowly went downhill after Katowice earlier this year because of the new maps and meta shifts and it has never rose to its 2018/2019 level; Serral's last series were especially bad but he was eliminated by Elazer from TSL 5 as early as May 2020(and lost earlier to him in the first HSC he won). Serral's ZvT has been generally strong this year, suffering from Terran being ahead following Cure's footsteps after KoB; he seems to have adjusted his compositions, differently from Reynor. Serral's ZvP has been great, he was literally unbeatable the whole year except for struggling with adepts timing in Katowice and the latest Skytoss resurgence.
I don't know if "best player in the world" carries so much weight right now.
Like, I'd still pick Serral as the highest percent chance to win any given event right now, but it's down to like, ionno, 20% chance to win a 16-man, where 2nd place might be 15%. The top players in the scene are really close, and in single elimination formats, the bracket draw has become SUPER important (and it was always really important).
Anyway this is a pretty exciting place for the scene to be in ahead of Katowice
You mean bracket draw for the playoffs? Right now holding top spots is not really an advantage because it's six man round robin anyway in the Ro24. It's actually quite a pity that performing great throughout the year doesn't give more of an advantage IMO
Trap's record versus Serral prior to the last patch should be thrown out. I honestly think all of Trap's results in LoTV prior to the last patch should just get a +1. That makes him a two time GSL champ and 1 time runner up in 2019.
EPT
ESL Pro Tour/2020/21/Masters/Last Chance
TY vs 
RagnaroK
Zest
Nice little rush there. Surely 1-1. 
![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/426050499087695873.png?v=1)
