On November 12 2020 02:41 deacon.frost wrote: At least i wasn't watchign this day, gonna skip the rest and TSL for sure too(just read the time rules and ... well.. nto gonna support that)
What rules?
For TSL6 every play day will start at 5PM CET / 11AM EST / 8 AM PST. We understand that will make the tournament run very late for our Korean players but we have not been given any indications that that is an issue, and we’ll try to schedule their matches as early in the day as possible.
Nobody ever said it's an issue, as we expect every progamer is a nolifer who is perfectly fine playing a pro match at 1 AM earliest(if my adjustment is correct)
In korea yes its normal, they often ladder at 2 am/3am hence they are used to playing at those times, hence they have no issue with it. So what is the reason again you are not gonna watch tsl?
It's not normal unless you wake up at 11 PM. I am awake up to 3 AM local time and I wouldn't touch the code(programmer) after 10 pm. BEcause I know my brains limits. Laddering isn't exactly a pro match, right?
Edit> and yes, that's the reason.
Edit 2> but hey, maybe it is normal. What do i know? All I know is that I hate that reasoning and that's why I'm not watching it
11PM? Pretty sure people can still think more than 4 hours after waking up.
And lots of devs like to work at night--it's all about how you manage your sleep schedule. You're just projecting your standards onto other people.
Also I would assume they go to bed at like 4 AM-5AM after their ladder sessions/tournament and then wake up in the early afternoon..
On November 12 2020 02:41 deacon.frost wrote: At least i wasn't watchign this day, gonna skip the rest and TSL for sure too(just read the time rules and ... well.. nto gonna support that)
What rules?
For TSL6 every play day will start at 5PM CET / 11AM EST / 8 AM PST. We understand that will make the tournament run very late for our Korean players but we have not been given any indications that that is an issue, and we’ll try to schedule their matches as early in the day as possible.
Nobody ever said it's an issue, as we expect every progamer is a nolifer who is perfectly fine playing a pro match at 1 AM earliest(if my adjustment is correct)
In korea yes its normal, they often ladder at 2 am/3am hence they are used to playing at those times, hence they have no issue with it. So what is the reason again you are not gonna watch tsl?
It's not normal unless you wake up at 11 PM. I am awake up to 3 AM local time and I wouldn't touch the code(programmer) after 10 pm. BEcause I know my brains limits. Laddering isn't exactly a pro match, right?
Edit> and yes, that's the reason.
Edit 2> but hey, maybe it is normal. What do i know? All I know is that I hate that reasoning and that's why I'm not watching it
11PM? Pretty sure people can still think more than 4 hours after waking up.
And lots of devs like to work at night--it's all about how you manage your sleep schedule. You're just projecting your standards onto other people.
Also I would assume they go to bed at like 4 AM-5AM after their ladder sessions/tournament and then wake up in the early afternoon..
Regardless of extenuating circumstances, it's not really that crazy for present day innovation to get eliminated after losing to Reynor (expected) and TIME (minor-moderate upset)
Feel like many people are exaggerating here. In the end we will still have 3xKR, 3xEU, 1xNA, 1xCh. Yes, everyone expected to have one less NA and 1 more KR in Maru, but Maru is clearly not feeling well.
Inno not getting out from his group is honestly not that surprising, Time has good TvT and Inno has done nothing that great this year for anyone to think he should be a heavy favorite against Time. And Reynor is just on another level in ZvT.
On November 12 2020 04:01 MarianoSC2 wrote: Feel like many people are exaggerating here. In the end we will still have 3xKR, 3xEU, 1xNA, 1xCh. Yes, everyone expected to have one less NA and 1 more KR in Maru, but Maru is clearly not feeling well.
Inno not getting out from his group is honestly not that surprising, Time has good TvT and Inno has done nothing that great this year for anyone to think he should be a heavy favorite against Time. And Reynor is just on another level in ZvT.
I'm gonna repeat myself, if the shoulder is that bad, he's supposed to be in bed. Playing a tournament in a bad shape won't make things better.
On November 12 2020 03:57 Waxangel wrote: Regardless of extenuating circumstances, it's not really that crazy for present day innovation to get eliminated after losing to Reynor (expected) and TIME (minor-moderate upset)
Maru didn't played well and I didn't see Innovation but he's not the sharpest Terran currently, still it's surprising he lost in a TvT. But the scheduling stuff and everybody claiming how it's fine is really ruslting my jimmies
On November 12 2020 02:41 deacon.frost wrote: At least i wasn't watchign this day, gonna skip the rest and TSL for sure too(just read the time rules and ... well.. nto gonna support that)
What rules?
For TSL6 every play day will start at 5PM CET / 11AM EST / 8 AM PST. We understand that will make the tournament run very late for our Korean players but we have not been given any indications that that is an issue, and we’ll try to schedule their matches as early in the day as possible.
Nobody ever said it's an issue, as we expect every progamer is a nolifer who is perfectly fine playing a pro match at 1 AM earliest(if my adjustment is correct)
In korea yes its normal, they often ladder at 2 am/3am hence they are used to playing at those times, hence they have no issue with it. So what is the reason again you are not gonna watch tsl?
It's not normal unless you wake up at 11 PM. I am awake up to 3 AM local time and I wouldn't touch the code(programmer) after 10 pm. BEcause I know my brains limits. Laddering isn't exactly a pro match, right?
Edit> and yes, that's the reason.
Edit 2> but hey, maybe it is normal. What do i know? All I know is that I hate that reasoning and that's why I'm not watching it
11PM? Pretty sure people can still think more than 4 hours after waking up.
And lots of devs like to work at night--it's all about how you manage your sleep schedule. You're just projecting your standards onto other people.
Yes, I am, I expect most progamers to be a normal human being who like to see a daylight and are awake during the day(at least part of it), so the night part of them being awake is actually being late at their day. Sorry for treating them like ordinary humans. But w/e, it's my reason and it's useless to discuss it here anyway.
Maru's out, no more players for me to watch in the tourney anyway.
On November 12 2020 02:41 deacon.frost wrote: At least i wasn't watchign this day, gonna skip the rest and TSL for sure too(just read the time rules and ... well.. nto gonna support that)
What rules?
For TSL6 every play day will start at 5PM CET / 11AM EST / 8 AM PST. We understand that will make the tournament run very late for our Korean players but we have not been given any indications that that is an issue, and we’ll try to schedule their matches as early in the day as possible.
Nobody ever said it's an issue, as we expect every progamer is a nolifer who is perfectly fine playing a pro match at 1 AM earliest(if my adjustment is correct)
In korea yes its normal, they often ladder at 2 am/3am hence they are used to playing at those times, hence they have no issue with it. So what is the reason again you are not gonna watch tsl?
It's not normal unless you wake up at 11 PM. I am awake up to 3 AM local time and I wouldn't touch the code(programmer) after 10 pm. BEcause I know my brains limits. Laddering isn't exactly a pro match, right?
Edit> and yes, that's the reason.
Edit 2> but hey, maybe it is normal. What do i know? All I know is that I hate that reasoning and that's why I'm not watching it
11PM? Pretty sure people can still think more than 4 hours after waking up.
And lots of devs like to work at night--it's all about how you manage your sleep schedule. You're just projecting your standards onto other people.
Also I would assume they go to bed at like 4 AM-5AM after their ladder sessions/tournament and then wake up in the early afternoon..
But that's like IT! That means that their 1 AM is really the late part of the day and they're preparing slowly to go to the bed, right? And THAT was my exact point. Thanks for the confirmation (I wouldn't be against a range like 10 pm - 1 AM, but 1 AM and onwards? realy? because they didn't complain? )
I would think that "lack of negative feedback" means that TSL's organizers asked korean players how they felt about the proposed changed and received answers that were not against the change itself. You seem to suggest, instead, that the organizers assumed that playing late in the night was ok for koreans and that they made the change without asking; I seriously doubt it.
If things are as I imagine, and someone here on TL.net could certainly tell us if it is so, you are indignated because you feel there is an issue the players you root for just don't perceive(at least, not as tragically as you do).
Also there are people, like me, who feel productive during the night. I was successful studying till late in the night and I would rather play an important game at 2 AM rather than at 8 AM; your approach is not a given.
Reynor would probably beat Inno even at 0 latency, but still, how can you think that it does not affect the quality of the games? Sometimes we see players target firing banelings among zergling with marines, to me that looks impossible even with 0 lag. I don't think cross-server play would make it easier.
On November 12 2020 06:58 Calliope wrote: Reynor would probably beat Inno even at 0 latency, but still, how can you think that it does not affect the quality of the games? Sometimes we see players target firing banelings among zergling with marines, to me that looks impossible even with 0 lag. I don't think cross-server play would make it easier.
So true, so true. Not to mention the underserved loss Inno had to suffer against TIME! Such lag from China to Korea, the TIMEzone clearly favored the chinese and how to deny that it is much harder for Terran to beat Terran?
On November 12 2020 06:58 Calliope wrote: Reynor would probably beat Inno even at 0 latency, but still, how can you think that it does not affect the quality of the games? Sometimes we see players target firing banelings among zergling with marines, to me that looks impossible even with 0 lag. I don't think cross-server play would make it easier.
Sure it makes it harder, same goes for Reynor but I would agree ping affects terran that bit more
I also think that people have to remember that effectively for the Koreans, their season has already ended. The foreigners have been playing high level SC2 for the past week because of their region, but GSL finished a while back, and it won't surprise me that the Koreans are not practising much after that.
I know that people keep saying that we're just making excuses for the Koreans etc. That's fine. But one just have to look at actual offline premier events and see how much better the Koreans perform compared to these online events. Look at IEM Katowice 2020 etc and how the Koreans performed there. Look at how much better both Maru and TY performed in the GSL finals compared to King of Battles. The Koreans just don't put as much stock into these online events as the foreigners. I know it's hard for those who are fans of the foreign players to understand/accept this, but to me it's quite obvious from their level of play and prep for the events.
Add on to the fact that they were still playing competitive SC2 in their GSL season in the old map pool whereas these foreigners have been playing on this map pool throughout their DreamHack. I know these seem minor, but at the top of the competition in SC2 (or in any super competitive sports), these things matter and makes a difference.
Plus, we also have to remember that most of the Koreans are seasoned veterans by now. These online events just do not interest them as much anymore. They have nothing else to prove. Even the prize pool doesn't matter too much for those at the top. I mean, just the fact that Inno hasn't played SC2 for a week to prep for this event shows how much he didn't care for it.
Also, for those who say that because the Koreans are used to laddering in the middle of the night, and therefore the scheduling doesn't matter, it's a huge difference between laddering and competitive play - especially against top players. If it doesn't, why don't we try scheduling the EU players to play at 1am and see if their performance suffer from it? I'm very sure that'll be a huge outcry if that happened. (I mean, look at the complaints during Blizzcon 2019 when the foreigners had to travel and adjust to two-time differences.) It's insane to suggest that it doesn't matter.
Eh... a lot of it is just variance. Koreans did fine in some online events like King of Battles or TSL5, and I doubt their preparation/motivation/ping issues were any different than in these Season Finals. Also there's only 6 Koreans out of 16 players--most other global events have somewhat stronger Korean lineups vis a vis the non-Korean lineup.
That being said people absolutely are engaging in a ton of rationalizing anytime Koreans lose.
And people would complain about 1 am EU because that's a shit time for most viewers, not anything to do with the players. At the end of the day tournaments have to be held at times that maximize viewership--the pandemic means someone is going to get the short end of the stick--the players are pros and as pros they need to deal with it. And it says a lot that it's the fans whining about the time and not the players.
Well we may see another upset in next group as TY is playing BW not SC2 on stream this week so probably not taking it super seriously. Might be good news for Heromarine,
On November 12 2020 12:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote: And people would complain about 1 am EU because that's a shit time for most viewers, not anything to do with the players. At the end of the day tournaments have to be held at times that maximize viewership--the pandemic means someone is going to get the short end of the stick--the players are pros and as pros they need to deal with it. And it says a lot that it's the fans whining about the time and not the players.
Oh, I don't doubt that. I understand why they have to schedule that in such a way. But if the Koreans whine about the time, would you have known or understood? These Koreans, unlike their foreign counterparts, don't speak English, and don't stream in English most of the time. They have their own forums/sites that they frequent. If they complained there, no one in the English world would hear about that.
But you'll have to see that the time schedule has been consistently favourable for the foreigners in many of these online events (and all three season finals of DreamHack.) I can't remember any online events that have been favourable in the scheduling for the Koreans in recent months. (Heck, they could just play it during a time when it's favourable to the Koreans and just cast from the replays like they did in the Team League) Add on to the fact that it's been scheduled in the middle of their GSL season sometimes, it's just grating then to see comments saying that the Koreans are weaker now, washed up (add in whatever adjectives people use), when many factors have been against them.
I am not arguing that they didn't perform up to their standards (like Maru and Inno yesterday. They were very poor by their standards). But the question is "why?", and for me, these are some strong factors.
On November 12 2020 12:57 adrft wrote: Well we may see another upset in next group as TY is playing BW not SC2 on stream this week so probably not taking it super seriously. Might be good news for Heromarine,
On November 12 2020 12:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Eh... a lot of it is just variance. Koreans did fine in some online events like King of Battles or TSL5, and I doubt their preparation/motivation/ping issues were any different than in these Season Finals. Also there's only 6 Koreans out of 16 players--most other global events have somewhat stronger Korean lineups vis a vis the non-Korean lineup.
That being said people absolutely are engaging in a ton of rationalizing anytime Koreans lose.
And people would complain about 1 am EU because that's a shit time for most viewers, not anything to do with the players. At the end of the day tournaments have to be held at times that maximize viewership--the pandemic means someone is going to get the short end of the stick--the players are pros and as pros they need to deal with it. And it says a lot that it's the fans whining about the time and not the players.
You mean the top 4 of GSL + 2 players from Ro8 is a shitty lineup for Korea? Koreans have to qualify for this, just like any other Player as well. The foreigners also don t have the strongest possible lineup themselves, looking at Nice and Enderr. All that is absolutly fine to me tbh, as this is meant to be a cherry ontop, to give us some games with players from all the regions.
On November 12 2020 02:41 deacon.frost wrote: At least i wasn't watchign this day, gonna skip the rest and TSL for sure too(just read the time rules and ... well.. nto gonna support that)
What rules?
For TSL6 every play day will start at 5PM CET / 11AM EST / 8 AM PST. We understand that will make the tournament run very late for our Korean players but we have not been given any indications that that is an issue, and we’ll try to schedule their matches as early in the day as possible.
Nobody ever said it's an issue, as we expect every progamer is a nolifer who is perfectly fine playing a pro match at 1 AM earliest(if my adjustment is correct)
In korea yes its normal, they often ladder at 2 am/3am hence they are used to playing at those times, hence they have no issue with it. So what is the reason again you are not gonna watch tsl?
It's not normal unless you wake up at 11 PM. I am awake up to 3 AM local time and I wouldn't touch the code(programmer) after 10 pm. BEcause I know my brains limits. Laddering isn't exactly a pro match, right?
Edit> and yes, that's the reason.
Edit 2> but hey, maybe it is normal. What do i know? All I know is that I hate that reasoning and that's why I'm not watching it
11PM? Pretty sure people can still think more than 4 hours after waking up.
And lots of devs like to work at night--it's all about how you manage your sleep schedule. You're just projecting your standards onto other people.
Also I would assume they go to bed at like 4 AM-5AM after their ladder sessions/tournament and then wake up in the early afternoon..
Almost no pros play ladder past 1 AM in Korea
Thanks for the invaluable insight.
So such late hour isn't optimal for streaming. Does that also mean that Korean SC2 fans don't really stay up late to watch such foreign tourneys?
On November 12 2020 12:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Eh... a lot of it is just variance. Koreans did fine in some online events like King of Battles or TSL5, and I doubt their preparation/motivation/ping issues were any different than in these Season Finals. Also there's only 6 Koreans out of 16 players--most other global events have somewhat stronger Korean lineups vis a vis the non-Korean lineup.
That being said people absolutely are engaging in a ton of rationalizing anytime Koreans lose.
And people would complain about 1 am EU because that's a shit time for most viewers, not anything to do with the players. At the end of the day tournaments have to be held at times that maximize viewership--the pandemic means someone is going to get the short end of the stick--the players are pros and as pros they need to deal with it. And it says a lot that it's the fans whining about the time and not the players.
You mean the top 4 of GSL + 2 players from Ro8 is a shitty lineup for Korea?
Funnily enough it's been the ones you wouldn't expect to disappoint who've done the worst.
On November 12 2020 02:41 deacon.frost wrote: At least i wasn't watchign this day, gonna skip the rest and TSL for sure too(just read the time rules and ... well.. nto gonna support that)
What rules?
For TSL6 every play day will start at 5PM CET / 11AM EST / 8 AM PST. We understand that will make the tournament run very late for our Korean players but we have not been given any indications that that is an issue, and we’ll try to schedule their matches as early in the day as possible.
Nobody ever said it's an issue, as we expect every progamer is a nolifer who is perfectly fine playing a pro match at 1 AM earliest(if my adjustment is correct)
In korea yes its normal, they often ladder at 2 am/3am hence they are used to playing at those times, hence they have no issue with it. So what is the reason again you are not gonna watch tsl?
It's not normal unless you wake up at 11 PM. I am awake up to 3 AM local time and I wouldn't touch the code(programmer) after 10 pm. BEcause I know my brains limits. Laddering isn't exactly a pro match, right?
Edit> and yes, that's the reason.
Edit 2> but hey, maybe it is normal. What do i know? All I know is that I hate that reasoning and that's why I'm not watching it
11PM? Pretty sure people can still think more than 4 hours after waking up.
And lots of devs like to work at night--it's all about how you manage your sleep schedule. You're just projecting your standards onto other people.
Also I would assume they go to bed at like 4 AM-5AM after their ladder sessions/tournament and then wake up in the early afternoon..
Almost no pros play ladder past 1 AM in Korea
Thanks for the invaluable insight.
So such late hour isn't optimal for streaming. Does that also mean that Korean SC2 fans don't really stay up late to watch such foreign tourneys?
EPT
