Nice bracket :o Not sure who I favour for each matchup. Cure seems to play great TvZ only when I’m not watching, so he was blessed I didn’t get to catch the last round live. I’ll have to check my schedule to see if I’ll curse him or not.
It’s a little frustrating that we don’t have both Katowice and Blizzcon in terms of comparing who had a better year overall. Instead of having the two parallel circuits, various smaller cross tournaments and two big prestige tournaments now we only have one of the latter where Serral, Reynor et al do battle with the GSL lads for a huge, big tournament. Where Katowice you have qualification that generally sees the hottest players form wise making up the field and Blizzcon more rewarding consistency over a season.
I suppose, while writing this the Dreamhack seasonal finals are a nice addition to the circuit. I’d kind of written them off because of cross server issues clearly impacting games but in future when they’re offline they’ll get us more of that cross-region fix.
I hope King of Battles can make a return to the circuit when offline competition is possible as I must say I really love the format and the Bo5s in the groups is a nice tweak on the GSL setup.
Clem definitely shouldn't beat Inno and I think also Maru's TvT should be too much for him. He should beat Zoun, on the other hand. I would like to see Clem against Maru, in any of casem
IMO neither Serral of Rogue deserve to be in the GOAT discussion, especially because most of their wins come in the last 3 years where the balance has been very much in the favor of zerg.
Personal opinion: All discussions of GOAT in head to head competitive games are very silly, because competitive games measure relative strengths of the players. There is no way to compare someone with players of past generations.
Case in point: Nadal vs Federer. This is a quote from wiki:
Federer with 20 total major titles, and Nadal with 19, are first and second on the men's all-time list for the most majors titles, and hold numerous other records between them. Together they have won 11 consecutive Grand Slam tournaments, from the 2005 French Open to the 2007 US Open, as well as 6 consecutive Grand Slam tournaments on two occasions; from the 2008 French Open to the 2009 Wimbledon Championships and from the 2017 Australian Open to the 2018 French Open. They are the only pair of men to have finished six consecutive calendar years as the top two ranked players on the ATP Tour, which they did from 2005 to 2010 and seven times overall, including 2017. This includes a record 211 consecutive weeks sharing the top two rankings from July 2005 to August 2009.
Take out Nadal or Federer, e.g., assume that in an alternate universe one of them has chosen a different career. In that universe, the other one would have easily collected at least 30 major titles and would have been the absolute undisputed out-of-this-world GOAT. Then in another alternate universe, some other dude (the Dude) has also picked up tennis and where we have Nadal-Federer-the Dude rivalry. In that universe, each one of them has won about 14 major titles, the same as Pete Sampras. So, in Alternate Universe 1, Nadal or Federer is the absolute god-like GOAT of tennis. In our universe, they are both GOATs and in Alternate Universe 3, people constantly argue about a bunch of players. In Alternate Universe 1, if you bring up Pete Sampras in a disucssion of GOAT, people laugh at you and they say that you know nothing of tennis. In our universe, people politely disagree with you and you would be in minority and in Alternate Universe 3, there is a big discussion that includes Sampras in the GOAT discussion.
The main point is that there is no universal measurement of skill in these kinds of games. When it comes to sports where you can hold and measure records, then yes, you can talk about GOAT (e.g., running, jumping, etc.) because then the measurements are much more objective (although you still could argue for advances in technology).
On October 10 2020 01:26 TheCheapSkate wrote: IMO neither Serral of Rogue deserve to be in the GOAT discussion, especially because most of their wins come in the last 3 years where the balance has been very much in the favor of zerg.
The GOAT expression should be used for those who succeed despite their races, not at a time when they play they race that dominates. Those who were said to play the 4th race.
On October 10 2020 01:26 TheCheapSkate wrote: IMO neither Serral of Rogue deserve to be in the GOAT discussion, especially because most of their wins come in the last 3 years where the balance has been very much in the favor of zerg.
The GOAT expression should be used for those who succeed despite their races, not at a time when they play they race that dominates. Those who were said to play the 4th race.
On October 10 2020 04:09 Poaktree wrote: Personal opinion: All discussions of GOAT in head to head competitive games are very silly, because competitive games measure relative strengths of the players. There is no way to compare someone with players of past generations.
Case in point: Nadal vs Federer. This is a quote from wiki:
Federer with 20 total major titles, and Nadal with 19, are first and second on the men's all-time list for the most majors titles, and hold numerous other records between them. Together they have won 11 consecutive Grand Slam tournaments, from the 2005 French Open to the 2007 US Open, as well as 6 consecutive Grand Slam tournaments on two occasions; from the 2008 French Open to the 2009 Wimbledon Championships and from the 2017 Australian Open to the 2018 French Open. They are the only pair of men to have finished six consecutive calendar years as the top two ranked players on the ATP Tour, which they did from 2005 to 2010 and seven times overall, including 2017. This includes a record 211 consecutive weeks sharing the top two rankings from July 2005 to August 2009.
Take out Nadal or Federer, e.g., assume that in an alternate universe one of them has chosen a different career. In that universe, the other one would have easily collected at least 30 major titles and would have been the absolute undisputed out-of-this-world GOAT. Then in another alternate universe, some other dude (the Dude) has also picked up tennis and where we have Nadal-Federer-the Dude rivalry. In that universe, each one of them has won about 14 major titles, the same as Pete Sampras. So, in Alternate Universe 1, Nadal or Federer is the absolute god-like GOAT of tennis. In our universe, they are both GOATs and in Alternate Universe 3, people constantly argue about a bunch of players. In Alternate Universe 1, if you bring up Pete Sampras in a disucssion of GOAT, people laugh at you and they say that you know nothing of tennis. In our universe, people politely disagree with you and you would be in minority and in Alternate Universe 3, there is a big discussion that includes Sampras in the GOAT discussion.
The main point is that there is no universal measurement of skill in these kinds of games. When it comes to sports where you can hold and measure records, then yes, you can talk about GOAT (e.g., running, jumping, etc.) because then the measurements are much more objective (although you still could argue for advances in technology).
Fed is forever the GOAT in my heart. It’s a bit extreme but if you look at Andy Murray’s overall stats and record against his peers minus Fed/Nadal/Djokovic (although he competed well with those guys), he’d have far more slams than his 3. His overall stats in many areas (tournament wins, win%, prize money) have him comfortably high up in the all-time lists, but as a clear number 4 in his own era you’ll never see him feature much in GOAT debates.
Generally though I agree, you can only be in the conversation amongst the various GOATs unless you are atypically dominant. Don Bradman in cricket’s stats are so insanely above others it’s hard to argue against him, although it can be done. For reference he has a test batting average of 99.8 or something, when the general informal consensus is that 40+ is a good test batsman, and 50+ is a great test batsman.
On October 10 2020 01:26 TheCheapSkate wrote: IMO neither Serral of Rogue deserve to be in the GOAT discussion, especially because most of their wins come in the last 3 years where the balance has been very much in the favor of zerg.
The GOAT expression should be used for those who succeed despite their races, not at a time when they play they race that dominates. Those who were said to play the 4th race.
Moon Maru Period
Moon is the fifth race to be pedantic.
Maru and Serral are probably the two best SC2 players I’ve seen. Doesn’t mean they are the GOATs necessarily but I think the Starcraft they produced at their absolute best was the highest level I’ve seen.
Maru with his outrageous mechanics and Serral is no slouch there either, but his decision-making and game reads are phenomenal.
On October 10 2020 01:26 TheCheapSkate wrote: IMO neither Serral of Rogue deserve to be in the GOAT discussion, especially because most of their wins come in the last 3 years where the balance has been very much in the favor of zerg.
The GOAT expression should be used for those who succeed despite their races, not at a time when they play they race that dominates. Those who were said to play the 4th race.
Moon Maru Period
Moon is the fifth race to be pedantic.
Maru and Serral are probably the two best SC2 players I’ve seen. Doesn’t mean they are the GOATs necessarily but I think the Starcraft they produced at their absolute best was the highest level I’ve seen.
Maru with his outrageous mechanics and Serral is no slouch there either, but his decision-making and game reads are phenomenal.
Yeah Serral has displayed real smart StarCraft with very good mechanics. Maru has been smart at times too with his play but it’s often playing disgustingly perfect Terran
On October 10 2020 01:26 TheCheapSkate wrote: IMO neither Serral of Rogue deserve to be in the GOAT discussion, especially because most of their wins come in the last 3 years where the balance has been very much in the favor of zerg.
The GOAT expression should be used for those who succeed despite their races, not at a time when they play they race that dominates. Those who were said to play the 4th race.
Moon Maru Period
Moon is the fifth race to be pedantic.
Maru and Serral are probably the two best SC2 players I’ve seen. Doesn’t mean they are the GOATs necessarily but I think the Starcraft they produced at their absolute best was the highest level I’ve seen.
Maru with his outrageous mechanics and Serral is no slouch there either, but his decision-making and game reads are phenomenal.
Yeah Serral has displayed real smart StarCraft with very good mechanics. Maru has been smart at times too with his play but it’s often playing disgustingly perfect Terran
Sometimes with Maru I feel he is just this mechanical monster and he goes in and executes a plan to a level no other player can do.
He’s certainly not a stupid player, but I think this may explain part of why he’s so decorated in the prep formats vs weekenders.
On October 09 2020 18:24 WombaT wrote: Nice bracket :o Not sure who I favour for each matchup. Cure seems to play great TvZ only when I’m not watching, so he was blessed I didn’t get to catch the last round live. I’ll have to check my schedule to see if I’ll curse him or not.
It’s a little frustrating that we don’t have both Katowice and Blizzcon in terms of comparing who had a better year overall. Instead of having the two parallel circuits, various smaller cross tournaments and two big prestige tournaments now we only have one of the latter where Serral, Reynor et al do battle with the GSL lads for a huge, big tournament. Where Katowice you have qualification that generally sees the hottest players form wise making up the field and Blizzcon more rewarding consistency over a season.
I suppose, while writing this the Dreamhack seasonal finals are a nice addition to the circuit. I’d kind of written them off because of cross server issues clearly impacting games but in future when they’re offline they’ll get us more of that cross-region fix.
I hope King of Battles can make a return to the circuit when offline competition is possible as I must say I really love the format and the Bo5s in the groups is a nice tweak on the GSL setup.
Yeah, I swear, Cure always wrecks his TvZ's when I'm not watching, too. As you mentioned, the necessary online component of the Season Finals atm removes a bit of the appeal, and not having the litmus test of those two huge events (Blizzcon/IEM) back-to-back is unfortunate in gauging those different aspects of competition throughout the year. Plus, it was always nice to look forawrd to that period of peak Starcraft. KoB has been a really welcome entry to things, and I, too, would love to see it stick around for an offline showing once things return to normal.
On October 10 2020 01:26 TheCheapSkate wrote: IMO neither Serral of Rogue deserve to be in the GOAT discussion, especially because most of their wins come in the last 3 years where the balance has been very much in the favor of zerg.
The GOAT discussion a tad meaningless. That being said, you can usually see a player's skill through racial balance. Whenever I watch Serral or Maru, I see GOAT material. Regardless of balance, they do things in games that other players don't/can't do--and have never done. For me, the GOAT is between Serral or Maru. Inno is super consistent but not quite at the level of those 2. And Rogue is wildly inconsistent and quite cheesy tbh.
EPT
