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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On November 22 2019 22:45 HolydaKing wrote:
I also think Lurker style is probably the way to go against toss. 10 range makes quite a difference, and it's good you get them earlier.
I think it’ll be a flow thing and how things fit together, although lurkers being outright better helps too.
It didn’t really matter so much in the past that Zergs had a relatively awkward transition where Protoss could build whatever because if Zerg made the transition they were extremely hard to ever kill.
Now it feels maybe the downsides of getting extra tech, slow-moving units, corrupters which aren’t very useful in mid game busts etc are sufficient drawbacks for other options to be explored.
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On November 22 2019 22:47 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2019 22:45 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 22 2019 22:44 sneakyfox wrote:On November 22 2019 22:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 22:30 Poopi wrote:On November 22 2019 22:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 17:32 Schelim wrote:On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote:
Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people. what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd. I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was. I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff. Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much. I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway. We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats. And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore. Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
Sure, share with us these replays.
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On November 22 2019 22:37 Schelim wrote:
yeah tbh idk how it's possible to follow sc2 and not know who Artosis is. like, no hate to anyone, i just literally don't understand how that works. meanwhile i don't really know who Winter is so fair enough i suppose.
I think you don't have to "follow" SC2 to follow Winter. Many people are just playing the game and then see on twitch some guy playing that neat game who plays it as casual as they do and so they stick with it without ever searching for more. Probably many of 'em don't even know TL.net.
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Great thoughts on race balance from Lambo there. Aim for a balanced lategame for all races with less powerful massive units to make it more dynamic. All races have defenders advantage, so that will help balance the rest of the game as well because nobody has to go for risky strats early to avoid lategame.
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i haven't been able to watch a lot of games due to work but it looks like on liqupeida that the koreans are crushing.. are the games close?
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France13022 Posts
On November 22 2019 22:56 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2019 22:47 darklycid wrote:On November 22 2019 22:45 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 22 2019 22:44 sneakyfox wrote:On November 22 2019 22:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 22:30 Poopi wrote:On November 22 2019 22:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 17:32 Schelim wrote:On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote:
Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people. what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd. I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was. I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff. Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much. I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway. We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats. And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore. Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage. Sure, share with us these replays.
Wasn't PvZ zerg favored in late 2018?
Like at BlizzCon Stats stood no chance against either Rogue or Serral.
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On November 22 2019 22:47 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2019 22:45 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 22 2019 22:44 sneakyfox wrote:On November 22 2019 22:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 22:30 Poopi wrote:On November 22 2019 22:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 17:32 Schelim wrote:On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote:
Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people. what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd. I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was. I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff. Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much. I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway. We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats. And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore. Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
There are a few examples of Ultralisks/corrupters/Infests style which worked but the neural range nerf makes it probably useless, then we have the BL/corrupters/vipers which is the way to go but then the bl nerf hits hard as zoning out the ht is borderline impossible. ITs removal is not the only nerf zerg received, actually, every late game tools have received a nerf except the viper.
That said, there are some ways against toss, terran with the super-thor is quite worrying as serral, Catz and every other top zergs pointed out.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On November 22 2019 22:54 Harris1st wrote:
Was the shroud abitily used once yet?
Thought you just go mass hydra + caster support vs golden armada
That or you just kill them before the armada is out, or at least aggressively trade and force Robo units etc. Not in a ‘don’t let them get there’ manner but it seems doable as at least one approach.
I’d thought Zergs will lag behind a bit in adapting from the last patch vs top Protoss players like Stats who seemingly tried every late game composition to find something workable.
Hopefully we’ll see some more new approaches in the coming games though.
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On November 22 2019 23:02 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2019 22:47 darklycid wrote:On November 22 2019 22:45 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 22 2019 22:44 sneakyfox wrote:On November 22 2019 22:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 22:30 Poopi wrote:On November 22 2019 22:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 17:32 Schelim wrote:On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote:
Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people. what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd. I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was. I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff. Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much. I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway. We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats. And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore. Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage. There are a few examples of Ultralisks/corrupters/Infests style which worked but the neural range nerf makes it probably useless, then we have the BL/corrupters/vipers which is the way to go but then the bl nerf hits hard as zoning out the ht is borderline impossible. ITs removal is not the only nerf zerg received, actually, every late game tools have received a nerf except the viper. That said, there is some way against toss, terran with the super-thor is quite worrying as serral, Catz and every other top zergs pointed out.
Can't talk about tvz but spewing out stuff like "not having any counter to mass carriers anymore" is just bullshit.
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On November 22 2019 23:04 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2019 23:02 stilt wrote:On November 22 2019 22:47 darklycid wrote:On November 22 2019 22:45 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 22 2019 22:44 sneakyfox wrote:On November 22 2019 22:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 22:30 Poopi wrote:On November 22 2019 22:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 17:32 Schelim wrote:On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote:
Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people. what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd. I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was. I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff. Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much. I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway. We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats. And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore. Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage. There are a few examples of Ultralisks/corrupters/Infests style which worked but the neural range nerf makes it probably useless, then we have the BL/corrupters/vipers which is the way to go but then the bl nerf hits hard as zoning out the ht is borderline impossible. ITs removal is not the only nerf zerg received, actually, every late game tools have received a nerf except the viper. That said, there is some way against toss, terran with the super-thor is quite worrying as serral, Catz and every other top zergs pointed out. Can't talk about tvz but spewing out stuff like "not having any counter to mass carriers anymore" is just bullshit.
What is the counter?
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On November 22 2019 23:01 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2019 22:56 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 22 2019 22:47 darklycid wrote:On November 22 2019 22:45 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 22 2019 22:44 sneakyfox wrote:On November 22 2019 22:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 22:30 Poopi wrote:On November 22 2019 22:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 17:32 Schelim wrote:On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote:
Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people. what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd. I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was. I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff. Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much. I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway. We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats. And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore. Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage. Sure, share with us these replays. Wasn't PvZ zerg favored in late 2018? Like at BlizzCon Stats stood no chance against either Rogue or Serral.
The infested terran buff was introduced in 2017, so i don't see how zerg doing well in 2018 is a point to show that Zerg can do well without infested terrans...
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On November 22 2019 23:02 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2019 22:47 darklycid wrote:On November 22 2019 22:45 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 22 2019 22:44 sneakyfox wrote:On November 22 2019 22:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 22:30 Poopi wrote:On November 22 2019 22:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 17:32 Schelim wrote:On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote:
Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people. what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd. I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was. I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff. Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much. I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway. We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats. And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore. Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage. There are a few examples of Ultralisks/corrupters/Infests style which worked but the neural range nerf makes it probably useless, then we have the BL/corrupters/vipers which is the way to go but then the bl nerf hits hard as zoning out the ht is borderline impossible. ITs removal is not the only nerf zerg received, actually, every late game tools have received a nerf except the viper. That said, there are some ways against toss, terran with the super-thor is quite worrying as serral, Catz and every other top zergs pointed out.
We literally just saw soo crush mass thors with roaches, banelings and 2 vipers an hour ago.
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On November 22 2019 23:17 Morbidius wrote:
Mind the gap.
it's hard to miss
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France13022 Posts
On November 22 2019 23:10 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2019 23:01 Poopi wrote:On November 22 2019 22:56 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 22 2019 22:47 darklycid wrote:On November 22 2019 22:45 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 22 2019 22:44 sneakyfox wrote:On November 22 2019 22:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 22:30 Poopi wrote:On November 22 2019 22:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 22 2019 17:32 Schelim wrote:
[quote]
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd. I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was. I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff. Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much. I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway. We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats. And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore. Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage. Sure, share with us these replays. Wasn't PvZ zerg favored in late 2018? Like at BlizzCon Stats stood no chance against either Rogue or Serral. The infested terran buff was introduced in 2017, so i don't see how zerg doing well in 2018 is a point to show that Zerg can do well without infested terrans...
I'm pretty sure you guys were talking about 2018 PvZ. Anyways.
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Germany3367 Posts
Well, this sure is bringing back memories. :D
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It's it MC singing this well ?
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All-ins and singing. MC has two great talents 
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Clem and Bunny playing for the last playoffs spot right?
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Will we see PvZ lategame not being ridiculously favored towards one race in the next decade maybe?
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EPT
