Top 2 of each group from the group stage advance to the Round of 8 Winner Bracket, 3rd and 4th place are moved into the first round of the lower bracket.
Is this the time when Clem can justify a claim for the "best forergn terran" title? His TvP has looked amazing in Nation wars, including against MaNa who had a great day yesterday, so he has a good shot with 3 tosses in his group.
Unfortnally, the most likely is 4 Koreans advancing from C. Group B should be Serral and Special +whoever has the best day.
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
I don't know. I felt like Rotti and Artosis are more than enough.
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
First I was kinda glad that he was there. At times its funny to listen to his ramblings. However this time his style seems to be too awkward with some questionable comments where they arent needed. He is like that one guy, that thinks he is part of the posse, but really isnt. Should tone down those "funny jokes" of his, and he will be fine.
On November 22 2019 19:01 sneakyfox wrote: Koreans truly are the masters of preparation format. Both soO and Solar hadn't played on the new patch before coming to HSC lol
Don't need to worry about the new patch if you just 12pool
On November 22 2019 19:01 sneakyfox wrote: Koreans truly are the masters of preparation format. Both soO and Solar hadn't played on the new patch before coming to HSC lol
Don't need to worry about the new patch if you just 12pool
This is already a pretty funny day. Couch is in great form too
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
On November 22 2019 21:54 DBooN wrote: soO best ZvT lategame in the world.
Does only using midgame units in lategame count as lategame?
Hey, he definitely built some BM broods there at the end
Idk if it was BM, they are almost as good at clearing tanklines as they always were, and they forced Bunny to make thors and vikings, which later ran over with banelings, roaches and ravagers. Tech swiches is still a major strenght of Zerg.
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
yeah tbh idk how it's possible to follow sc2 and not know who Artosis is. like, no hate to anyone, i just literally don't understand how that works. meanwhile i don't really know who Winter is so fair enough i suppose.
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
That player still gives me nightmares.
I’d assumed SC2 had people who followed the scene in some form, and people who just played and didn’t consume external content.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
On November 22 2019 22:41 sneakyfox wrote: Not looking good for Lambo today. At least he still has to play a Korean in ZvZ so that should be an autowin for the European zerg
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
On November 22 2019 22:41 sneakyfox wrote: Not looking good for Lambo today. At least he still has to play a Korean in ZvZ so that should be an autowin for the European zerg
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
Void rays are stronger now though and shred through Corruptors very quickly. But I agree Lambo isn't at his best this tournament and I'd rather judge after seeing Reynor/Serral late game vs Stats/Trap,
On November 22 2019 22:37 Schelim wrote: yeah tbh idk how it's possible to follow sc2 and not know who Artosis is. like, no hate to anyone, i just literally don't understand how that works. meanwhile i don't really know who Winter is so fair enough i suppose.
I must say, when I started following Sc2 at first, I also had no idear about Artosis. I played sc2 and bw when I was 10, but only the campaign. Then I played sc2 casually and bought sc2 in 2014, but also mostly played campaign there. Then in 2017 I started watching Lowkos Videos on YouTube. The 1st time I watched an tournament was HSC17. Gues closely after that I learnd Who Artosis is. So most of my time as part of the SC comunity I had also no clue about him at all.
On November 22 2019 22:45 HolydaKing wrote: I also think Lurker style is probably the way to go against toss. 10 range makes quite a difference, and it's good you get them earlier.
I think it’ll be a flow thing and how things fit together, although lurkers being outright better helps too.
It didn’t really matter so much in the past that Zergs had a relatively awkward transition where Protoss could build whatever because if Zerg made the transition they were extremely hard to ever kill.
Now it feels maybe the downsides of getting extra tech, slow-moving units, corrupters which aren’t very useful in mid game busts etc are sufficient drawbacks for other options to be explored.
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
On November 22 2019 22:37 Schelim wrote: yeah tbh idk how it's possible to follow sc2 and not know who Artosis is. like, no hate to anyone, i just literally don't understand how that works. meanwhile i don't really know who Winter is so fair enough i suppose.
I think you don't have to "follow" SC2 to follow Winter. Many people are just playing the game and then see on twitch some guy playing that neat game who plays it as casual as they do and so they stick with it without ever searching for more. Probably many of 'em don't even know TL.net.
Great thoughts on race balance from Lambo there. Aim for a balanced lategame for all races with less powerful massive units to make it more dynamic. All races have defenders advantage, so that will help balance the rest of the game as well because nobody has to go for risky strats early to avoid lategame.
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
Sure, share with us these replays.
Wasn't PvZ zerg favored in late 2018? Like at BlizzCon Stats stood no chance against either Rogue or Serral.
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
There are a few examples of Ultralisks/corrupters/Infests style which worked but the neural range nerf makes it probably useless, then we have the BL/corrupters/vipers which is the way to go but then the bl nerf hits hard as zoning out the ht is borderline impossible. ITs removal is not the only nerf zerg received, actually, every late game tools have received a nerf except the viper. That said, there are some ways against toss, terran with the super-thor is quite worrying as serral, Catz and every other top zergs pointed out.
On November 22 2019 22:54 Harris1st wrote: Was the shroud abitily used once yet? Thought you just go mass hydra + caster support vs golden armada
That or you just kill them before the armada is out, or at least aggressively trade and force Robo units etc. Not in a ‘don’t let them get there’ manner but it seems doable as at least one approach.
I’d thought Zergs will lag behind a bit in adapting from the last patch vs top Protoss players like Stats who seemingly tried every late game composition to find something workable.
Hopefully we’ll see some more new approaches in the coming games though.
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
There are a few examples of Ultralisks/corrupters/Infests style which worked but the neural range nerf makes it probably useless, then we have the BL/corrupters/vipers which is the way to go but then the bl nerf hits hard as zoning out the ht is borderline impossible. ITs removal is not the only nerf zerg received, actually, every late game tools have received a nerf except the viper. That said, there is some way against toss, terran with the super-thor is quite worrying as serral, Catz and every other top zergs pointed out.
Can't talk about tvz but spewing out stuff like "not having any counter to mass carriers anymore" is just bullshit.
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
There are a few examples of Ultralisks/corrupters/Infests style which worked but the neural range nerf makes it probably useless, then we have the BL/corrupters/vipers which is the way to go but then the bl nerf hits hard as zoning out the ht is borderline impossible. ITs removal is not the only nerf zerg received, actually, every late game tools have received a nerf except the viper. That said, there is some way against toss, terran with the super-thor is quite worrying as serral, Catz and every other top zergs pointed out.
Can't talk about tvz but spewing out stuff like "not having any counter to mass carriers anymore" is just bullshit.
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
Sure, share with us these replays.
Wasn't PvZ zerg favored in late 2018? Like at BlizzCon Stats stood no chance against either Rogue or Serral.
The infested terran buff was introduced in 2017, so i don't see how zerg doing well in 2018 is a point to show that Zerg can do well without infested terrans...
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
There are a few examples of Ultralisks/corrupters/Infests style which worked but the neural range nerf makes it probably useless, then we have the BL/corrupters/vipers which is the way to go but then the bl nerf hits hard as zoning out the ht is borderline impossible. ITs removal is not the only nerf zerg received, actually, every late game tools have received a nerf except the viper. That said, there are some ways against toss, terran with the super-thor is quite worrying as serral, Catz and every other top zergs pointed out.
We literally just saw soo crush mass thors with roaches, banelings and 2 vipers an hour ago.
On November 22 2019 17:32 Schelim wrote: [quote] what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
Sure, share with us these replays.
Wasn't PvZ zerg favored in late 2018? Like at BlizzCon Stats stood no chance against either Rogue or Serral.
The infested terran buff was introduced in 2017, so i don't see how zerg doing well in 2018 is a point to show that Zerg can do well without infested terrans...
I'm pretty sure you guys were talking about 2018 PvZ. Anyways.
On November 22 2019 13:46 elluel wrote: Am I the only one that has an issue with Winter's presence at HSC? I'm just very disappointed in the things he's doing to the other people.
what's he doing to people? have not been able to watch much HSC yesterday
I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
There are a few examples of Ultralisks/corrupters/Infests style which worked but the neural range nerf makes it probably useless, then we have the BL/corrupters/vipers which is the way to go but then the bl nerf hits hard as zoning out the ht is borderline impossible. ITs removal is not the only nerf zerg received, actually, every late game tools have received a nerf except the viper. That said, there are some ways against toss, terran with the super-thor is quite worrying as serral, Catz and every other top zergs pointed out.
We literally just saw soo crush mass thors with roaches, banelings and 2 vipers an hour ago.
Not sure if you're trolling but he had produced 2 thors at 14 minutes, he has 2 thors in the second biggest engagement in the middle of the map. Bunny got destroyed by ling/ravagers/banes.
Then, he managed almost to hold a bl/roach/ravagers mass banelings push while being at 170 pop with 5 thors in prod, without any tanks or liberators and with 2 hellbats. The bl flock got almost os and was proved useless, the ling/bane surround did the job in combinaison of biles thanks to bunny already having lost because clearly, with more tanks and even better, liberators, ravagers is not a potent late game solution.
On November 22 2019 22:09 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] I’ve nothing against him, nor am I a fan either. Only saw a little bit but I thought he did OK. The trio of Artosis/Special and him worked surprisingly well, Winter as the more casual guy, Artosis as the enthusiastic all things StarCraft nerd and Special as the incredibly biased but enthusiastic Terran playing nerd.
I rarely have chat open for reasons of my own sanity, but there were plenty of Winter fans there, some of whom didn’t know who Artosis was.
I’d always assumed that Winter’s audience were aware of the wider scene but just liked his style or w/e, but it seems some at least are a totally different segment of the SC community, so it’s probably good for them to get exposed to something like an HSC
Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
Sure, share with us these replays.
Wasn't PvZ zerg favored in late 2018? Like at BlizzCon Stats stood no chance against either Rogue or Serral.
The infested terran buff was introduced in 2017, so i don't see how zerg doing well in 2018 is a point to show that Zerg can do well without infested terrans...
I'm pretty sure you guys were talking about 2018 PvZ. Anyways.
We didn't really see mass infestors in PvZ in late 2018. PvZ wasn't Zerg favored, it was a balanced matchup with maybe a slight advantage for Z; that Stats would have stood no chance against Rogue is just your opinion, Serral was undoubtly the best lategame player and won against Stats accordingly but it's not like he rolled over him.
On November 22 2019 23:52 Morbidius wrote: Will we see PvZ lategame not being ridiculously favored towards one race in the next decade maybe?
Wasn't it ok in 2017 ? And 2018 which didn't see that many ITs feels fine to me. And before the sh nerf it was terrible but somewhat balanced.
2017 was the year of the legendary ''fist of neeb'' so no, it was one of the worst skytoss years ever. 2018 might have been fine, neither race seemed to want to go late.
On November 22 2019 22:30 Poopi wrote: [quote] Not knowing Artosis? Wow, I almost thought all sc2 fans were people watching GSL on the "free" 180p (!) GOMplayer back in the days and stuff.
Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
Sure, share with us these replays.
Wasn't PvZ zerg favored in late 2018? Like at BlizzCon Stats stood no chance against either Rogue or Serral.
The infested terran buff was introduced in 2017, so i don't see how zerg doing well in 2018 is a point to show that Zerg can do well without infested terrans...
I'm pretty sure you guys were talking about 2018 PvZ. Anyways.
We didn't really see mass infestors in PvZ in late 2018. PvZ wasn't Zerg favored, it was a balanced matchup with maybe a slight advantage for Z; that Stats would have stood no chance against Rogue is just your opinion, Serral was undoubtly the best lategame player and won against Stats accordingly but it's not like he rolled over him.
I mean Stats was also the best protoss lategame player, but yeah 2018 pvz lategame was pretty balanced that's why i think all the zergs hyperventilating about the matches we've seen so far is pretty stupid esp. when soO couldnt even win lategame last patch when zerg was bonkers vs protoss.
On November 22 2019 22:41 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
Sure, share with us these replays.
Wasn't PvZ zerg favored in late 2018? Like at BlizzCon Stats stood no chance against either Rogue or Serral.
The infested terran buff was introduced in 2017, so i don't see how zerg doing well in 2018 is a point to show that Zerg can do well without infested terrans...
I'm pretty sure you guys were talking about 2018 PvZ. Anyways.
We didn't really see mass infestors in PvZ in late 2018. PvZ wasn't Zerg favored, it was a balanced matchup with maybe a slight advantage for Z; that Stats would have stood no chance against Rogue is just your opinion, Serral was undoubtly the best lategame player and won against Stats accordingly but it's not like he rolled over him.
I mean Stats was also the best protoss lategame player, but yeah 2018 pvz lategame was pretty balanced that's why i think all the zergs hyperventilating about the matches we've seen so far is pretty stupid esp. when soO couldnt even win lategame last patch when zerg was bonkers vs protoss.
People aren't going bonkers because soO lost, its mostly because nothing good ever came out of an Skytoss meta in PvZ. By the way i really want to see Serral face a top Protoss in this meta(he won't in his group sadly) .
On November 22 2019 22:44 sneakyfox wrote: [quote]
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
Sure, share with us these replays.
Wasn't PvZ zerg favored in late 2018? Like at BlizzCon Stats stood no chance against either Rogue or Serral.
The infested terran buff was introduced in 2017, so i don't see how zerg doing well in 2018 is a point to show that Zerg can do well without infested terrans...
I'm pretty sure you guys were talking about 2018 PvZ. Anyways.
We didn't really see mass infestors in PvZ in late 2018. PvZ wasn't Zerg favored, it was a balanced matchup with maybe a slight advantage for Z; that Stats would have stood no chance against Rogue is just your opinion, Serral was undoubtly the best lategame player and won against Stats accordingly but it's not like he rolled over him.
I mean Stats was also the best protoss lategame player, but yeah 2018 pvz lategame was pretty balanced that's why i think all the zergs hyperventilating about the matches we've seen so far is pretty stupid esp. when soO couldnt even win lategame last patch when zerg was bonkers vs protoss.
People aren't going bonkers because soO lost, its mostly because nothing good ever came out of an Skytoss meta in PvZ.
Because after 1,5 days of the new patch we can already say it's gonna be a skytoss meta.
On November 22 2019 22:41 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] Anyway first post patch PvZ I’ve seen thus far. Intrigued more than anything, feels like Lambo is playing as if the patch didn’t happen so hard to judge much.
I think a more aggressive hydra into lurker style might be pretty potent because you can transition more easily and you don’t have that ‘sit back and let Stats build upgraded Carriers’, interested to see it experimented with anyway.
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
Sure, share with us these replays.
Wasn't PvZ zerg favored in late 2018? Like at BlizzCon Stats stood no chance against either Rogue or Serral.
The infested terran buff was introduced in 2017, so i don't see how zerg doing well in 2018 is a point to show that Zerg can do well without infested terrans...
I'm pretty sure you guys were talking about 2018 PvZ. Anyways.
We didn't really see mass infestors in PvZ in late 2018. PvZ wasn't Zerg favored, it was a balanced matchup with maybe a slight advantage for Z; that Stats would have stood no chance against Rogue is just your opinion, Serral was undoubtly the best lategame player and won against Stats accordingly but it's not like he rolled over him.
I mean Stats was also the best protoss lategame player, but yeah 2018 pvz lategame was pretty balanced that's why i think all the zergs hyperventilating about the matches we've seen so far is pretty stupid esp. when soO couldnt even win lategame last patch when zerg was bonkers vs protoss.
Wasn't 2018 part of the "hydra/bane all in or die trying" meta?
On November 22 2019 23:52 Morbidius wrote: Will we see PvZ lategame not being ridiculously favored towards one race in the next decade maybe?
Lol, skytoss is a thing still since WOL. By the way 60-80 % of the protoss in diamond just doing photon rush into skytoss vs zerg.
Sure eventually, when they met good master/GM player this strats stopped working during some period, but it was always incredibly easy to perform, and teamgame is full of 30 APM guys that mass carriers, because it's super strong and really hard to counter.
So skytoss is probably the best start if you want to be carried above your real skill, the fact this strat hasn't been nerfed since WOL is ridiculous. It even more ridiculous to make a balance patch that make this strat OP at the highest level...
On November 22 2019 22:44 sneakyfox wrote: [quote]
We probably also have to consider the quite significant skill gap between two players like Lambo and Stats.
And the fact zerg doesn't have any counter to mass carriers anymore.
Yeah let's ignore 2018 PvZ where good Zergs still won lategame pvz without heavy infested terran usage.
Sure, share with us these replays.
Wasn't PvZ zerg favored in late 2018? Like at BlizzCon Stats stood no chance against either Rogue or Serral.
The infested terran buff was introduced in 2017, so i don't see how zerg doing well in 2018 is a point to show that Zerg can do well without infested terrans...
I'm pretty sure you guys were talking about 2018 PvZ. Anyways.
We didn't really see mass infestors in PvZ in late 2018. PvZ wasn't Zerg favored, it was a balanced matchup with maybe a slight advantage for Z; that Stats would have stood no chance against Rogue is just your opinion, Serral was undoubtly the best lategame player and won against Stats accordingly but it's not like he rolled over him.
I mean Stats was also the best protoss lategame player, but yeah 2018 pvz lategame was pretty balanced that's why i think all the zergs hyperventilating about the matches we've seen so far is pretty stupid esp. when soO couldnt even win lategame last patch when zerg was bonkers vs protoss.
Wasn't 2018 part of the "hydra/bane all in or die trying" meta?
On November 23 2019 00:04 Morbidius wrote: People aren't going bonkers because soO lost, its mostly because nothing good ever came out of an Skytoss meta in PvZ. By the way i really want to see Serral face a top Protoss in this meta(he won't in his group sadly) .
On November 23 2019 00:04 Morbidius wrote: People aren't going bonkers because soO lost, its mostly because nothing good ever came out of an Skytoss meta in PvZ. By the way i really want to see Serral face a top Protoss in this meta(he won't in his group sadly) .
On November 22 2019 23:52 Morbidius wrote: Will we see PvZ lategame not being ridiculously favored towards one race in the next decade maybe?
Lol, skytoss is a thing still since WOL. By the way 60-80 % of the protoss in diamond just doing photon rush into skytoss vs zerg.
Sure eventually, when they met good master/GM player this strats stopped working during some period, but it was always incredibly easy to perform, and teamgame is full of 30 APM guys that mass carriers, because it's super strong and really hard to counter.
So skytoss is probably the best start if you want to be carried above your real skill, the fact this strat hasn't been nerfed since WOL is ridiculous. It even more ridiculous to make a balance patch that make this strat OP at the highest level...
In any RTS game I’ve ever played at lower levels turtling into end game units is strong because players don’t have the mechanics or know the timings to punish such styles.
What are you talking about that it hasn’t been nerfed since WoL? Flux vanes was removed, Voids have been changed multiple times, archon toilet was removed, Carrier is seemingly buffed/nerfed with every other patch.
As we haven’t seen the Zergs use their new toolkit yet I’d say the patch is 50% a success, in that Toss can compete with certain lategame comps Zerg have when they were failing before.
The other 50% on whether I’ll judge it on is whether or not we’re just swapping borderline unkillable Zerg comps for a Protoss sky ball equivalent.
Which would be extremely premature to judge given some Zergs don’t look like they even realise there has been a patch.
On November 23 2019 00:43 Xain0n wrote: Hm KR(soO,Solar) vs EU(Elazer, Lambo,TLO, Zanster) ZvZ is 4-4(1-2-1) right now in this tournament.
I hope Clem advancing is just the first step for his global domination of Sc2!
I dont think those ZVZ numbers mean much.
Very impressive that Clem managed to qualify but he looked so completely lost and outclassed by Zest and Stats, that I wouldnt put money on him getting far, if he hits another good toss
On November 23 2019 00:43 Xain0n wrote: Hm KR(soO,Solar) vs EU(Elazer, Lambo,TLO, Zanster) ZvZ is 4-4(1-2-1) right now in this tournament.
I hope Clem advancing is just the first step for his global domination of Sc2!
I dont think those ZVZ numbers mean much.
Very impressive that Clem managed to qualify but he looked so completely lost and outclassed by Zest and Stats, that I wouldnt put money on him getting far, if he hits another good toss
Was he stomped? I expected him to maybe take a set but look good in losing given his vP is pretty tasty.
On November 23 2019 00:43 Xain0n wrote: Hm KR(soO,Solar) vs EU(Elazer, Lambo,TLO, Zanster) ZvZ is 4-4(1-2-1) right now in this tournament.
I hope Clem advancing is just the first step for his global domination of Sc2!
I dont think those ZVZ numbers mean much.
Very impressive that Clem managed to qualify but he looked so completely lost and outclassed by Zest and Stats, that I wouldnt put money on him getting far, if he hits another good toss
Was he stomped? I expected him to maybe take a set but look good in losing given his vP is pretty tasty.
he was kinda stomped, and he looked very frustrated. He left the last game with close to even supply, cuz his attack dindt work. I mean he probably would have lost anyways, but when players do that u can tell they are frustrated with the MU
On November 23 2019 00:43 Xain0n wrote: Hm KR(soO,Solar) vs EU(Elazer, Lambo,TLO, Zanster) ZvZ is 4-4(1-2-1) right now in this tournament.
I hope Clem advancing is just the first step for his global domination of Sc2!
I dont think those ZVZ numbers mean much.
Very impressive that Clem managed to qualify but he looked so completely lost and outclassed by Zest and Stats, that I wouldnt put money on him getting far, if he hits another good toss
Those ZvZ numbers don't mean much, they just add to the substantial parity(advantage if we drag Serral in) EU Zerg players have achieved over Koreans in the last year and half at least; considering korean Zerg are on average stronger players, EU ZvZ is still best ZvZ
Clem didn't really seem that lost agains Stats, at least in g2; I didn't watch his match against Zest. Do I have to remind you we are speaking of someone who never breached ro16 in the circuit? Our baby Flash is in the making, give him time!
On November 23 2019 00:43 Xain0n wrote: Hm KR(soO,Solar) vs EU(Elazer, Lambo,TLO, Zanster) ZvZ is 4-4(1-2-1) right now in this tournament.
I hope Clem advancing is just the first step for his global domination of Sc2!
I dont think those ZVZ numbers mean much.
Very impressive that Clem managed to qualify but he looked so completely lost and outclassed by Zest and Stats, that I wouldnt put money on him getting far, if he hits another good toss
Those ZvZ numbers don't mean much, they just add to the substantial parity(advantage if we drag Serral in) EU Zerg players have achieved over Koreans in the last year and half at least; considering korean Zerg are on average stronger players, EU ZvZ is still best ZvZ
Clem didn't really seem that lost agains Stats, at least in g2; I didn't watch his match against Zest. Do I have to remind you we are speaking of someone who never breached ro16 in the circuit? Our baby Flash is in the making, give him time!
Check out Clem's game against MaNa un Nation wars. He probably has the best TvP outside Korea, just not quite good enough to take games from Zest and Stats.
On November 22 2019 23:52 Morbidius wrote: Will we see PvZ lategame not being ridiculously favored towards one race in the next decade maybe?
Lol, skytoss is a thing still since WOL. By the way 60-80 % of the protoss in diamond just doing photon rush into skytoss vs zerg.
Sure eventually, when they met good master/GM player this strats stopped working during some period, but it was always incredibly easy to perform, and teamgame is full of 30 APM guys that mass carriers, because it's super strong and really hard to counter.
So skytoss is probably the best start if you want to be carried above your real skill, the fact this strat hasn't been nerfed since WOL is ridiculous. It even more ridiculous to make a balance patch that make this strat OP at the highest level...
In any RTS game I’ve ever played at lower levels turtling into end game units is strong because players don’t have the mechanics or know the timings to punish such styles.
What are you talking about that it hasn’t been nerfed since WoL? Flux vanes was removed, Voids have been changed multiple times, archon toilet was removed, Carrier is seemingly buffed/nerfed with every other patch.
As we haven’t seen the Zergs use their new toolkit yet I’d say the patch is 50% a success, in that Toss can compete with certain lategame comps Zerg have when they were failing before.
The other 50% on whether I’ll judge it on is whether or not we’re just swapping borderline unkillable Zerg comps for a Protoss sky ball equivalent.
Which would be extremely premature to judge given some Zergs don’t look like they even realise there has been a patch.
It was exactly the same situation in HOTS where deathball was invincible and the only way Zerg has to beat it was mass SH. Protoss cried about "not good design", and SH got removed, and the deathball rolls over Zerg.
It is the same situation, the worst is you know it's true but don't want to admit because you want to enjoy free wins thx to skytoss.
On November 23 2019 03:41 b0ub0u wrote: What happened I missed it between ToD and Take?
They showed a nice ToD video and then Take mentioned that they had some issues/made some mistakes and ToD was almost not coming, but then they figured it out. He just said how important that was to him and how much he values ToD's friendship and then they hugged :p.
On November 22 2019 23:52 Morbidius wrote: Will we see PvZ lategame not being ridiculously favored towards one race in the next decade maybe?
Lol, skytoss is a thing still since WOL. By the way 60-80 % of the protoss in diamond just doing photon rush into skytoss vs zerg.
Sure eventually, when they met good master/GM player this strats stopped working during some period, but it was always incredibly easy to perform, and teamgame is full of 30 APM guys that mass carriers, because it's super strong and really hard to counter.
So skytoss is probably the best start if you want to be carried above your real skill, the fact this strat hasn't been nerfed since WOL is ridiculous. It even more ridiculous to make a balance patch that make this strat OP at the highest level...
In any RTS game I’ve ever played at lower levels turtling into end game units is strong because players don’t have the mechanics or know the timings to punish such styles.
What are you talking about that it hasn’t been nerfed since WoL? Flux vanes was removed, Voids have been changed multiple times, archon toilet was removed, Carrier is seemingly buffed/nerfed with every other patch.
As we haven’t seen the Zergs use their new toolkit yet I’d say the patch is 50% a success, in that Toss can compete with certain lategame comps Zerg have when they were failing before.
The other 50% on whether I’ll judge it on is whether or not we’re just swapping borderline unkillable Zerg comps for a Protoss sky ball equivalent.
Which would be extremely premature to judge given some Zergs don’t look like they even realise there has been a patch.
It was exactly the same situation in HOTS where deathball was invincible and the only way Zerg has to beat it was mass SH. Protoss cried about "not good design", and SH got removed, and the deathball rolls over Zerg.
It is the same situation, the worst is you know it's true but don't want to admit because you want to enjoy free wins thx to skytoss.
Ah yes, my consistent posting over years on TL where I have bemoaned unkillable deathballs, especially air-based ones was just a cunning ruse all along.
On November 23 2019 04:10 Drusas_ wrote: Has Serral ever not gotten past group stage in a tournament since his 2018 godmode start?
I think his worst performance since 2018 was top8 in Katowice this year.
I remember it felt like Serral "BOMBED OUT" of the ro8. The man's pretty good it seems
I was there in Katowice and it truly felt that way, nobodoy expected it. It was a really close 2:3 against the eventual winner soO, so nothing to be ashamed of, but nobody saw it coming. Everybody still saw Serral as invincible, it was before he lost two finals vs Reynor and Inno.
On November 23 2019 04:10 Drusas_ wrote: Has Serral ever not gotten past group stage in a tournament since his 2018 godmode start?
I think his worst performance since 2018 was top8 in Katowice this year.
I remember it felt like Serral "BOMBED OUT" of the ro8. The man's pretty good it seems
I was there in Katowice and it truly felt that way, nobodoy expected it. It was a really close 2:3 against the eventual winner soO, so nothing to be ashamed of, but nobody saw it coming. Everybody still saw Serral as invincible, it was before he lost two finals vs Reynor and Inno.
I agree it felt that way, but Serral had just lost his insane offline streak. His elimination could have been more shocking if he were still undefeated.
Lol I've only seen uThermal not do this build on this map one time in this matchup. Surely, players should blind counter this now at this point, it's been like 5 months of him constantly doing this on Disco
Didnt know it was that bad. I was under the impression that it cancels while the BC is teleportation instead of every abduct putting the skill on cooldown.
On November 23 2019 04:56 Musicus wrote: So basically a BC has teleport ready, can jump at any point, then it gets abducted and teleport is on CD as if it was used.
Kelazhur's chances of getting out the group aren't too bad. He has decent chances to beat MLord and Bly who have bombed out so far, and then his match against uThermal will be pretty important cos they could end up with pretty similar scores. uThermal's score so far is quite good but that 2-0 loss to Drogo might hurt him if he also ends up losing to Special or Kelazhur.
Dont want to sound too rude, but how come Winter is casting so much? Not the biggest fan and i feel like he doesnt vibe too much with the rest of the team?
On November 23 2019 05:37 Quateras wrote: Dont want to sound too rude, but how come Winter is casting so much? Not the biggest fan and i feel like he doesnt vibe too much with the rest of the team?
I don't mind him too much, but yeah he's there way too often. I hope we'll see something like Solar, Special, soO casting eventually.
Yeah. I dont know if this is me cause i havent got much time to watch several latest HSCs but this one certainly stands out and delivers. GJ TAKE & CREW!
On November 23 2019 06:29 Silvanel wrote: Yeah. I dont know if this is me coause i havent got much time to watch several latest HSCs but this one certainly standsout and delivers. GJ TAKE & CREW!
It's both even better than before and every HSC lately has been god damn amazing.
On November 23 2019 06:47 Lexender wrote: Casts get really boring when every caster plays the same race and the game its not a mirror.
I think they do a decent job at trying to look at the game from both perspectives but small cognitive biases always happen no matter what. It would be nice to have like a Demuslim etc. for the Terran spice
Actually just realised if Special loses 2-0 vs Serral, he will have the same map score as uThermal they will both play each other as their final match. Depending on how Serral vs Showtime goes, uThermal vs Special could actually be a match that could decide 2nd place.
I'd say Top 4 at the very least is pretty locked in at this point
I think it's pretty intriguing how HSC has insane gameplay:downtime ratio compared to a lot of tournaments but no one gives a shit because their content doesn't suck
On November 23 2019 07:07 Waxangel wrote: I think it's pretty intriguing how HSC has insane gameplay:downtime ratio compared to a lot of tournaments but no one gives a shit because their content doesn't suck
When DH music was fun, people didn't mind that much either when the breaks were longer.
On November 23 2019 07:07 Waxangel wrote: I think it's pretty intriguing how HSC has insane gameplay:downtime ratio compared to a lot of tournaments but no one gives a shit because their content doesn't suck
They did some insane amount of production for filler content. Top tier videos etc in between.
On November 23 2019 06:54 blooblooblahblah wrote: Actually just realised if Special loses 2-0 vs Serral, he will have the same map score as uThermal they will both play each other as their final match. Depending on how Serral vs Showtime goes, uThermal vs Special could actually be a match that could decide 2nd place.
I'd say Top 4 at the very least is pretty locked in at this point
if LP can be trusted, Thermy could still be knocked out by Drogo by my count EDIT: and/or Showtime too. He could go 8-6.
On November 23 2019 06:54 blooblooblahblah wrote: Actually just realised if Special loses 2-0 vs Serral, he will have the same map score as uThermal they will both play each other as their final match. Depending on how Serral vs Showtime goes, uThermal vs Special could actually be a match that could decide 2nd place.
I'd say Top 4 at the very least is pretty locked in at this point
if LP can be trusted, Thermy could still be knocked out by Drogo by my count EDIT: and/or Showtime too. He could go 8-6.
I just saw game 2 of Marinelord vs Drogo on the French stream. It ended 2-0 for Marinelord with MLord playing P and Drogo playing T interestingly enough.
On November 23 2019 06:54 blooblooblahblah wrote: Actually just realised if Special loses 2-0 vs Serral, he will have the same map score as uThermal they will both play each other as their final match. Depending on how Serral vs Showtime goes, uThermal vs Special could actually be a match that could decide 2nd place.
I'd say Top 4 at the very least is pretty locked in at this point
if LP can be trusted, Thermy could still be knocked out by Drogo by my count EDIT: and/or Showtime too. He could go 8-6.
I just saw game 2 of Marinelord vs Drogo on the French stream. It ended 2-0 for Marinelord with MLord playing P and Drogo playing T interestingly enough.
that s very strange, Drogo had at least 3 possible scenarios to advance, he just had to win his remaining games. Tie for 4h with uthermal with 8-6, advance due to h2h Tie with showtime 8-6, it means he would have 2-0d so, advances due to h2h Finish 4th place 8-6, showtime finishes 7-7
On November 23 2019 06:54 blooblooblahblah wrote: Actually just realised if Special loses 2-0 vs Serral, he will have the same map score as uThermal they will both play each other as their final match. Depending on how Serral vs Showtime goes, uThermal vs Special could actually be a match that could decide 2nd place.
I'd say Top 4 at the very least is pretty locked in at this point
if LP can be trusted, Thermy could still be knocked out by Drogo by my count EDIT: and/or Showtime too. He could go 8-6.
I just saw game 2 of Marinelord vs Drogo on the French stream. It ended 2-0 for Marinelord with MLord playing P and Drogo playing T interestingly enough.
that s very strange, Drogo had at least 3 possible scenarios to advance, he just had to win his remaining games. Tie for 4h with uthermal with 8-6, advance due to h2h Tie with showtime 8-6, it means he would have 2-0d so, advances due to h2h Finish 4th place 8-6, showtime finishes 7-7
Ahh, apparently he already played the other series:
On November 23 2019 07:47 royalroadweed wrote: Should smart casting just be removed? I hate that every lategame ends up being spellcaster vs spellcaster.
Just nerf it, if you cast with a group of casters you get a delay. If you single cast - no delay. Boom, skill rewarded, noobs are saved.
Serral looked hopeless there even though he clearly paid a lot more attention to his army movement than showtime did. Way to go blizzard, zerg is a heavy underdog in the late game once again....
Why is it so difficult for them to make the game closer to 50-50 in the late game rather than one side heavily dominating the other one?
On November 23 2019 07:49 HolydaKing wrote: If Serral doesn't really stand a chance against Showtime in late game, I don't wanna see him (and probably the other zergs) vs KR toss players there.
At least he looked better than Lambo did though.
well, the patch is still very new, Im willing to chalk these things up to players experimenting. But i'll say it kinda seems the tables have turned
On November 23 2019 07:49 HolydaKing wrote: If Serral doesn't really stand a chance against Showtime in late game, I don't wanna see him (and probably the other zergs) vs KR toss players there.
At least he looked better than Lambo did though.
Serral was quite far behind all game so honestly it is too early to tell. The fact that he even stayed a live for so long kinda showed the potential Zerg could still have in a more even game.
Serral was good at late game ZvP before Zerg was good at late game ZvP so I have no doubt he could win in a more even position with this current balance.
Also, if Serral wins this game and goes 1-1, are we gonna have a 3 way tie for 2nd place? uThermal and Special went 1-1 so they have an even map score.
On November 23 2019 07:49 HolydaKing wrote: If Serral doesn't really stand a chance against Showtime in late game, I don't wanna see him (and probably the other zergs) vs KR toss players there.
At least he looked better than Lambo did though.
well, the patch is still very new, Im willing to chalk these things up to players experimenting. But i'll say it kinda seems the tables have turned
Corruptors can't be the answer to sky toss at least, storm wrecks them (over time). Maybe if they had decent regeneration.
Anyway, the nydus nerf hurt Serral in that game, so his eco didn't end up overwhelming, which is fine by me.
On November 23 2019 07:53 sneakyfox wrote: Showtime had a very good economy in that game and had good harass early as well. Towards the end he mined much more than Serral.
Also, maybe we get to see other combos than corrupter/viper/lurker.
He was losing carriers/archons and random units basically for free all game long. I Did not see serral not paying attention to his units there.
On November 23 2019 07:49 HolydaKing wrote: If Serral doesn't really stand a chance against Showtime in late game, I don't wanna see him (and probably the other zergs) vs KR toss players there.
At least he looked better than Lambo did though.
well, the patch is still very new, Im willing to chalk these things up to players experimenting. But i'll say it kinda seems the tables have turned
Corruptors can't be the answer to sky toss at least, storm wrecks them (over time). Maybe if they had decent regeneration.
Serral used to do it in 2018 with Corruptor Viper, there is still a lot of play here and as I said in an earlier post, Serral was not in a great position all game (the early game and the mid game went pretty bad for him overall)
On November 23 2019 07:47 royalroadweed wrote: Should smart casting just be removed? I hate that every lategame ends up being spellcaster vs spellcaster.
Just nerf it, if you cast with a group of casters you get a delay. If you single cast - no delay. Boom, skill rewarded, noobs are saved.
I would quite like this, with the exception of probably sentries. They’d be super wonky to individually click/box and force fielding quickly.
On November 23 2019 07:49 HolydaKing wrote: If Serral doesn't really stand a chance against Showtime in late game, I don't wanna see him (and probably the other zergs) vs KR toss players there.
At least he looked better than Lambo did though.
well, the patch is still very new, Im willing to chalk these things up to players experimenting. But i'll say it kinda seems the tables have turned
Corruptors can't be the answer to sky toss at least, storm wrecks them (over time). Maybe if they had decent regeneration.
right now i think the answer might be being even more passive, and instead of a few dozen spores have 100+ spores, lurkers and spellcasters.
Also, Showtimes is 1st if he wins this map, and tied for 3rd-4th with uthermal if he doesnt
On November 23 2019 07:49 HolydaKing wrote: If Serral doesn't really stand a chance against Showtime in late game, I don't wanna see him (and probably the other zergs) vs KR toss players there.
At least he looked better than Lambo did though.
well, the patch is still very new, Im willing to chalk these things up to players experimenting. But i'll say it kinda seems the tables have turned
Think it’s to be expected really, Protoss were pushing really hard and experimenting with all sorts to try to win lategame scenarios, and came up rather dry so were always going to be better placed to jump into a new patch IMO.
I think Zergs will adapt to what the Protoss legion are currently whacking them with thus far and we’ll get a better idea down the line of what this patch might bring.
Game one of Serral vs. Showtime was really good; game two was much less interesting, with Showtime suiciding a huge army early on and then never recovering the 30-50 supply deficit.
On November 23 2019 08:07 HolydaKing wrote: Serral defended these adepts extremely well, pretty much any other zerg would have been dead.
Yeah, didn't scout, droned in the middle while adepts were useless. "defended"
Maybe the new adepts just suck?
Maybe so, but he still survived despite all the stuff you said. And that's just because of insane drone/army movement. Serral didn't react well, but he defended with what he had quite spectactularly tbh.
On November 23 2019 08:10 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm confused, why does Special go through to top2 when him, Showtime and uThermal have the same map score. I assume there's no H2H advantage for Bo2??
On November 23 2019 08:04 royalroadweed wrote: This strat seems unaffected by the nydus worm change.
It is slower and more expensive, seems defendable right now. If you do not realize it is coming you loose one nexus unless you have a battery, but that feels right.
On November 23 2019 08:10 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm confused, why does Special go through to top2 when him, Showtime and uThermal have the same map score. I assume there's no H2H advantage for Bo2??
Special won 2-0 vs Showtime
Yeah, I just checked the rules. I didn't realise they still did H2H with the new system but it makes sense.
It looks like uThermal gets 3rd place over Showtime despite going 1-1 against each other so I assume they've done that based on Showtime's result vs Special? This one isn't as clear to me.
On November 23 2019 08:10 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm confused, why does Special go through to top2 when him, Showtime and uThermal have the same map score. I assume there's no H2H advantage for Bo2??
Special won 2-0 vs Showtime
Yeah, I just checked the rules. I didn't realise they still did H2H with the new system but it makes sense.
It looks like uThermal gets 3rd place over Showtime despite going 1-1 against each other so I assume they've done that based on Showtime's result vs Special? This one isn't as clear to me.
it was a 3-way tie, so between the 3 of them special is 3-1, uthermal is 2-2 and showtime is 1-3
On November 23 2019 08:10 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm confused, why does Special go through to top2 when him, Showtime and uThermal have the same map score. I assume there's no H2H advantage for Bo2??
Special won 2-0 vs Showtime
Yeah, I just checked the rules. I didn't realise they still did H2H with the new system but it makes sense.
It looks like uThermal gets 3rd place over Showtime despite going 1-1 against each other so I assume they've done that based on Showtime's result vs Special? This one isn't as clear to me.
yeah they apparently use the map score of only the maps played between them
On November 23 2019 08:10 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm confused, why does Special go through to top2 when him, Showtime and uThermal have the same map score. I assume there's no H2H advantage for Bo2??
Special won 2-0 vs Showtime
Yeah, I just checked the rules. I didn't realise they still did H2H with the new system but it makes sense.
It looks like uThermal gets 3rd place over Showtime despite going 1-1 against each other so I assume they've done that based on Showtime's result vs Special? This one isn't as clear to me.
Well it's a 3 way tie in map score. So what they look at next is what happened between them:
Special won once and tied once uThermal tied twice Showtime lost once and tied once
Another great day of HSC. They are absolutely killing it this year. Now it's weekend so a lot more people should be able to join, think it's going to be so sick.
On November 23 2019 08:19 sneakyfox wrote: Another great day of HSC. They are absolutely killing it this year. Now it's weekend so a lot more people should be able to join, think it's going to be so sick.
On November 23 2019 08:19 sneakyfox wrote: Another great day of HSC. They are absolutely killing it this year. Now it's weekend so a lot more people should be able to join, think it's going to be so sick.
Team France didn’t do as well except for Clem but since they mostly practiced on the old patch they should be able to improve before the next match, so I’m still relatively confident against Germany
The bracket is gonna be sick, and kinda fun on the new patch: there might be some upsets outside of this bo2 format
Upper bracket looks good, soO vs Serral again and the winner of that vs Special or Inno. A bit sad that Stats and Solar play each other right away in the lower bracket though, means one is eliminated Saturday morning.
Upper bracket looks good, soO vs Serral again and the winner of that vs Special or Inno. A bit sad that Stats and Solar play each other right away in the lower bracket though, means one is eliminated Saturday morning.
Serral vs soO is happening too often for my tastes and Zest vs Trap like a disappointing pairing to me. On the other hand, Cure vs Reynor might be a great series, especially if Cure mostly goes for bio; Special vs Inno seems nice, I am looking forward to a Serral vs Inno confrontation in the ro4.
If Solar loses early we gain precious insight, I'm rooting for Stats.
Upper bracket looks good, soO vs Serral again and the winner of that vs Special or Inno. A bit sad that Stats and Solar play each other right away in the lower bracket though, means one is eliminated Saturday morning.
Rooting for Stats but if he loses, he has more time to drink
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