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On March 02 2019 02:27 dysenterymd wrote:
The only people who over hype Serral are the people who call him a bonjwa. Pretty much any other level of praise is justified. BTW Serral is the favorite to win IEM at this point, and if/when he does I will lap up all the tears.
Bonjwa is a BW term anyway.
Woops double post
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On March 02 2019 02:26 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2019 02:23 nojok wrote:On March 02 2019 02:22 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:17 RaFox17 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:09 starkiller123 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:03 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:01 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2019 01:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
Indeed he has, which just makes the first part of that point even stronger.
No one would EVER be calling out the B word if it was just his Korean kill streak that was being considered, after all Maru's kill streak last year was far more impressive.
People are only caring about the streak because of how long it was and it was only as long as it was because he was protected from his best competitors for the majority of the year.
Don't get me wrong I am a huge fan of Serral, but his legacy has a MASSIVE asterisk next to it as long as WCS is regionlocked and he refuses to compete in GSL. As long as both of those things are true, I will NEVER call him a bonjwa. No way on earth Maru's kill streak was better, Serral's win streak korean was bigger and more impressive even considering koreans only. IIRC it was 16-0 before today which makes it 20-0 before losing, compared to Maru's 16-1. Think whatever you like, Serral still advanced first in the so-called group of Death today. The unusual thing is usually not losing series, not the opposite. People won tournaments in the past by advancing third in their groups and now a single 1-2 causes all this fuss? I dont give a single shit about the fact that Innovation beat Serral today. In fact I'm here arguing that Serral's streak is blown completely out of proportion because a majority of it was regionlocked. We've seen tremendous kill streaks throughout SC2's history. Serral's isn't special, it's only special because he's a foreigner, and when you start taking those special considerations into perspective there are other factors like regionlocking that need to be considered also. Also, 4 straight GSL championships is WAY more impressive than anything Serral has done so far. That is a fact. Just want to point out that that is a subjective opinion. Winning GSL is impressive but the current format also gives the title holder a free pass to the quarterfinals. this format has been in place for years and yet no one else has been able to sweep a year of GSL with the same advantage Thank you! not even Mvp was ever able to sweep an entire year's worth of seasons. No one ever has. What Maru did last year was unprecedented in SC2 and he did it at the highest level in a tournament that wasn't locked to anyone. Serral can't claim that. He's a super skilled player whose legacy has been inflated thanks to the dumb system that WCS is using. I hate it, and I will not shut up about it until it changes. There is no way to say objectively which one had more impressive year. I think Serral deserved the player of the year award because he won GSL vs. the world and Blizzcon. Also using an argument that depends on a person not being able to imagine something is quite questionable  Let's not mince words here. Serral won the "player of the year award" (who even gave that site the right to decide anything) because he was the first non-Korean to win a top tier tournament in a game that has been dominated by Koreans over the last 20 years. He won because of his ethnic origin. If he was a Korean player that award would have gone to a different player playing a different game. Can we use the B word if Serral wins this event? No we cant. Serral will have won THREE global events in his entire career. That is nowhere near bonjwa worthy. Think about that for perspective. As dominant as Serral has been he he was only won 3 tournaments that Koreans have been allowed to participate in. It's disgraceful to our scene that someone that is widely considered one of the best in the world is still stomping all over a regionlocked scene while also declining to participate in the top league in the world. This just doesn't happen in other sports. Luka Doncic is one of the best Euroleague Players that the league has ever scene and he only started playing in the NBA this year but at least he went over and started playing in it. You can't be the best and achieve the title of the best when you don't compete against the best on a regular basis. I dont care what sport you're playing.
He didn't just "win."
He absolutely destroyed Blizzcon. Outside of the Finals, he absolutely destroyed GSL vs the World. And he just advanced first outside of the group of death. If he shows the same level of play as previous tournaments, it's not simply "winning." It's winning the three most recent biggest international tournaments over the course of 6 months.
I want you to think about this. Under your logic, Serral could never be bonjwa unless he plays in GSL or WCS is no longer region locked. No matter if Serral was actually the best player in the world by far could he be the "greatest."
Because there's no way for you to accept that under your terms, your argument is meaningless and loses touch with reality.
One last note: Bonjwa isn't about your total career. It's about a small period of time (usually a year or so) where one player is the big big favorite to win every tournament.
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On March 02 2019 02:25 Doko wrote:
Alphabunny splits that game, god damn.
Kinda funny that after a great split against Banelings, those Marines group up again to flank the Zerg and instantly die to other Banelings  .
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On March 02 2019 02:27 dysenterymd wrote:
The only people who over hype Serral are the people who call him a bonjwa. Pretty much any other level of praise is justified. BTW Serral is the favorite to win IEM at this point, and if/when he does I will lap up all the tears.
If, over the next two years, Serral wins another four tournaments like GSL vs the world/Blizzcon/IEM or plays in/wins a Code S we can start discussing the B-word.
If Serral wins a Code S I will take back every negative thing I have ever said in this thread. The fact he hasn't even TRIED to qualify yet is one of the main things that bothers me right now.
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On March 02 2019 02:27 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2019 02:24 sneakyfox wrote:On March 02 2019 02:24 Nakajin wrote:
Of fucking course soO is the only one losing zvt And Serral of course. And Rogue. And Scarlett Don't forget Dark...
And shittone of terrans according to whinechats at least
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Canada8989 Posts
On March 02 2019 02:27 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2019 02:24 sneakyfox wrote:On March 02 2019 02:24 Nakajin wrote:
Of fucking course soO is the only one losing zvt And Serral of course. And Rogue. And Scarlett Don't forget Dark...
Look at you bunch of nerds with your facts
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i am a terran player
i am sad
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/Happy2.gif)
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On March 02 2019 02:25 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2019 02:23 nojok wrote:On March 02 2019 02:22 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:17 RaFox17 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:09 starkiller123 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:03 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:01 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2019 01:57 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
Indeed he has, which just makes the first part of that point even stronger.
No one would EVER be calling out the B word if it was just his Korean kill streak that was being considered, after all Maru's kill streak last year was far more impressive.
People are only caring about the streak because of how long it was and it was only as long as it was because he was protected from his best competitors for the majority of the year.
Don't get me wrong I am a huge fan of Serral, but his legacy has a MASSIVE asterisk next to it as long as WCS is regionlocked and he refuses to compete in GSL. As long as both of those things are true, I will NEVER call him a bonjwa. No way on earth Maru's kill streak was better, Serral's win streak korean was bigger and more impressive even considering koreans only. IIRC it was 16-0 before today which makes it 20-0 before losing, compared to Maru's 16-1. Think whatever you like, Serral still advanced first in the so-called group of Death today. The unusual thing is usually not losing series, not the opposite. People won tournaments in the past by advancing third in their groups and now a single 1-2 causes all this fuss? I dont give a single shit about the fact that Innovation beat Serral today. In fact I'm here arguing that Serral's streak is blown completely out of proportion because a majority of it was regionlocked. We've seen tremendous kill streaks throughout SC2's history. Serral's isn't special, it's only special because he's a foreigner, and when you start taking those special considerations into perspective there are other factors like regionlocking that need to be considered also. Also, 4 straight GSL championships is WAY more impressive than anything Serral has done so far. That is a fact. Just want to point out that that is a subjective opinion. Winning GSL is impressive but the current format also gives the title holder a free pass to the quarterfinals. this format has been in place for years and yet no one else has been able to sweep a year of GSL with the same advantage Thank you! not even Mvp was ever able to sweep an entire year's worth of seasons. No one ever has. What Maru did last year was unprecedented in SC2 and he did it at the highest level in a tournament that wasn't locked to anyone. Serral can't claim that. He's a super skilled player whose legacy has been inflated thanks to the dumb system that WCS is using. I hate it, and I will not shut up about it until it changes. There is no way to say objectively which one had more impressive year. I think Serral deserved the player of the year award because he won GSL vs. the world and Blizzcon. Also using an argument that depends on a person not being able to imagine something is quite questionable Let's not mince words here. Serral won the "player of the year award" (who even gave that site the right to decide anything) because he was the first non-Korean to win a top tier tournament in a game that has been dominated by Koreans over the last 20 years. He won because of his ethnic origin. If he was a Korean player that award would have gone to a different player playing a different game. Can we use the B word if Serral wins this event? Honestly the B-word was fine to use after he won Blizzcon - he basically had a perfect WCS season
Rogue won 3 tournaments with all the top players in the row in 2017/2018 and wasn't considered a bonjwa except by Artosis. Serral has won 2 now, if he wins this he's as dominant as Rogue was last year
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On March 02 2019 02:29 renaissanceMAN wrote:i am a terran player i am sad
sucks but
have you forgotten about dark?
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On March 02 2019 02:29 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2019 02:27 dysenterymd wrote:
The only people who over hype Serral are the people who call him a bonjwa. Pretty much any other level of praise is justified. BTW Serral is the favorite to win IEM at this point, and if/when he does I will lap up all the tears.
If, over the next two years, Serral wins another four tournaments like GSL vs the world/Blizzcon/IEM or plays in/wins a Code S we can start discussing the B-word.
If Serral wins a Code S I will take back every negative thing I have ever said in this thread. The fact he hasn't even TRIED to qualify yet is one of the main things that bothers me right now.
thats some random thing that bothers you. Just watch IEM and enjoy
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Forget SC2, I ordered and just received Pineapple, Aura cheese, Ham and Kebab pizza. WHAT DO YOU THINK?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 02 2019 02:23 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2019 02:22 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:17 RaFox17 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:09 starkiller123 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:03 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:01 Xain0n wrote:On March 02 2019 01:57 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 01:54 RaFox17 wrote:[quote] Luckily he has been killing koreans left and right Indeed he has, which just makes the first part of that point even stronger. No one would EVER be calling out the B word if it was just his Korean kill streak that was being considered, after all Maru's kill streak last year was far more impressive. People are only caring about the streak because of how long it was and it was only as long as it was because he was protected from his best competitors for the majority of the year. Don't get me wrong I am a huge fan of Serral, but his legacy has a MASSIVE asterisk next to it as long as WCS is regionlocked and he refuses to compete in GSL. As long as both of those things are true, I will NEVER call him a bonjwa. No way on earth Maru's kill streak was better, Serral's win streak korean was bigger and more impressive even considering koreans only. IIRC it was 16-0 before today which makes it 20-0 before losing, compared to Maru's 16-1. Think whatever you like, Serral still advanced first in the so-called group of Death today. The unusual thing is usually not losing series, not the opposite. People won tournaments in the past by advancing third in their groups and now a single 1-2 causes all this fuss? I dont give a single shit about the fact that Innovation beat Serral today. In fact I'm here arguing that Serral's streak is blown completely out of proportion because a majority of it was regionlocked. We've seen tremendous kill streaks throughout SC2's history. Serral's isn't special, it's only special because he's a foreigner, and when you start taking those special considerations into perspective there are other factors like regionlocking that need to be considered also. Also, 4 straight GSL championships is WAY more impressive than anything Serral has done so far. That is a fact. Just want to point out that that is a subjective opinion. Winning GSL is impressive but the current format also gives the title holder a free pass to the quarterfinals. this format has been in place for years and yet no one else has been able to sweep a year of GSL with the same advantage Thank you! not even Mvp was ever able to sweep an entire year's worth of seasons. No one ever has. What Maru did last year was unprecedented in SC2 and he did it at the highest level in a tournament that wasn't locked to anyone. Serral can't claim that. He's a super skilled player whose legacy has been inflated thanks to the dumb system that WCS is using. I hate it, and I will not shut up about it until it changes. There is no way to say objectively which one had more impressive year. I think Serral deserved the player of the year award because he won GSL vs. the world and Blizzcon. Also using an argument that depends on a person not being able to imagine something is quite questionable Let's not mince words here. Serral won the "player of the year award" (who even gave that site the right to decide anything) because he was the first non-Korean to win a top tier tournament in a game that has been dominated by Koreans over the last 20 years. He won because of his ethnic origin. If he was a Korean player that award would have gone to a different player playing a different game. Can we use the B word if Serral wins this event?
By certain people definition B-word person needs to win Code S 
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On March 02 2019 02:28 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2019 02:26 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:23 nojok wrote:On March 02 2019 02:22 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:17 RaFox17 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:09 starkiller123 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:03 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:01 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
No way on earth Maru's kill streak was better, Serral's win streak korean was bigger and more impressive even considering koreans only. IIRC it was 16-0 before today which makes it 20-0 before losing, compared to Maru's 16-1.
Think whatever you like, Serral still advanced first in the so-called group of Death today.
The unusual thing is usually not losing series, not the opposite. People won tournaments in the past by advancing third in their groups and now a single 1-2 causes all this fuss?
I dont give a single shit about the fact that Innovation beat Serral today. In fact I'm here arguing that Serral's streak is blown completely out of proportion because a majority of it was regionlocked. We've seen tremendous kill streaks throughout SC2's history. Serral's isn't special, it's only special because he's a foreigner, and when you start taking those special considerations into perspective there are other factors like regionlocking that need to be considered also. Also, 4 straight GSL championships is WAY more impressive than anything Serral has done so far. That is a fact. Just want to point out that that is a subjective opinion. Winning GSL is impressive but the current format also gives the title holder a free pass to the quarterfinals. this format has been in place for years and yet no one else has been able to sweep a year of GSL with the same advantage Thank you! not even Mvp was ever able to sweep an entire year's worth of seasons. No one ever has. What Maru did last year was unprecedented in SC2 and he did it at the highest level in a tournament that wasn't locked to anyone. Serral can't claim that. He's a super skilled player whose legacy has been inflated thanks to the dumb system that WCS is using. I hate it, and I will not shut up about it until it changes. There is no way to say objectively which one had more impressive year. I think Serral deserved the player of the year award because he won GSL vs. the world and Blizzcon. Also using an argument that depends on a person not being able to imagine something is quite questionable Let's not mince words here. Serral won the "player of the year award" (who even gave that site the right to decide anything) because he was the first non-Korean to win a top tier tournament in a game that has been dominated by Koreans over the last 20 years. He won because of his ethnic origin. If he was a Korean player that award would have gone to a different player playing a different game. Can we use the B word if Serral wins this event? No we cant. Serral will have won THREE global events in his entire career. That is nowhere near bonjwa worthy. Think about that for perspective. As dominant as Serral has been he he was only won 3 tournaments that Koreans have been allowed to participate in. It's disgraceful to our scene that someone that is widely considered one of the best in the world is still stomping all over a regionlocked scene while also declining to participate in the top league in the world. This just doesn't happen in other sports. Luka Doncic is one of the best Euroleague Players that the league has ever scene and he only started playing in the NBA this year but at least he went over and started playing in it. You can't be the best and achieve the title of the best when you don't compete against the best on a regular basis. I dont care what sport you're playing. He didn't just "win." He absolutely destroyed Blizzcon. Outside of the Finals, he absolutely destroyed GSL vs the World. And he just advanced first outside of the group of death. If he shows the same level of play as previous tournaments, it's not simply "winning." It's winning the three most recent biggest international tournaments over the course of 6 months.
He destroyed that tournament because his main competitor proxied his way into a 3-0 loss to sOs.
He won that entire tournament without beating a single Terran. Think about that?
I don't WANT to make these kinds of excuses for Serral. He is legitimately an awesome player, but they are so glaring that only the most rabid delusional fanboy can ignore them.
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On March 02 2019 02:30 Penev wrote:sucks but have you forgotten about dark?
dark != terran
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On March 02 2019 02:30 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2019 02:25 Bagration wrote:On March 02 2019 02:23 nojok wrote:On March 02 2019 02:22 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:17 RaFox17 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:09 starkiller123 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:03 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:01 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
No way on earth Maru's kill streak was better, Serral's win streak korean was bigger and more impressive even considering koreans only. IIRC it was 16-0 before today which makes it 20-0 before losing, compared to Maru's 16-1.
Think whatever you like, Serral still advanced first in the so-called group of Death today.
The unusual thing is usually not losing series, not the opposite. People won tournaments in the past by advancing third in their groups and now a single 1-2 causes all this fuss?
I dont give a single shit about the fact that Innovation beat Serral today. In fact I'm here arguing that Serral's streak is blown completely out of proportion because a majority of it was regionlocked. We've seen tremendous kill streaks throughout SC2's history. Serral's isn't special, it's only special because he's a foreigner, and when you start taking those special considerations into perspective there are other factors like regionlocking that need to be considered also. Also, 4 straight GSL championships is WAY more impressive than anything Serral has done so far. That is a fact. Just want to point out that that is a subjective opinion. Winning GSL is impressive but the current format also gives the title holder a free pass to the quarterfinals. this format has been in place for years and yet no one else has been able to sweep a year of GSL with the same advantage Thank you! not even Mvp was ever able to sweep an entire year's worth of seasons. No one ever has. What Maru did last year was unprecedented in SC2 and he did it at the highest level in a tournament that wasn't locked to anyone. Serral can't claim that. He's a super skilled player whose legacy has been inflated thanks to the dumb system that WCS is using. I hate it, and I will not shut up about it until it changes. There is no way to say objectively which one had more impressive year. I think Serral deserved the player of the year award because he won GSL vs. the world and Blizzcon. Also using an argument that depends on a person not being able to imagine something is quite questionable Let's not mince words here. Serral won the "player of the year award" (who even gave that site the right to decide anything) because he was the first non-Korean to win a top tier tournament in a game that has been dominated by Koreans over the last 20 years. He won because of his ethnic origin. If he was a Korean player that award would have gone to a different player playing a different game. Can we use the B word if Serral wins this event? Honestly the B-word was fine to use after he won Blizzcon - he basically had a perfect WCS season Rogue won 3 tournaments with all the top players in the row in 2017/2018 and wasn't considered a bonjwa except by Artosis. Serral has won 2 now, if he wins this he's as dominant as Rogue was last year
But he also dropped out in the Ro32 in GSL, that's what killed the hype train.
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On March 02 2019 02:31 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2019 02:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:27 dysenterymd wrote:
The only people who over hype Serral are the people who call him a bonjwa. Pretty much any other level of praise is justified. BTW Serral is the favorite to win IEM at this point, and if/when he does I will lap up all the tears.
If, over the next two years, Serral wins another four tournaments like GSL vs the world/Blizzcon/IEM or plays in/wins a Code S we can start discussing the B-word.
If Serral wins a Code S I will take back every negative thing I have ever said in this thread. The fact he hasn't even TRIED to qualify yet is one of the main things that bothers me right now. thats some random thing that bothers you. Just watch IEM and enjoy
It bothers me only because people overhype the hell out of Serral. I need to check that shit because I care about the competition aspect of this game instead of just wanting white guys to win Starcraft games.
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On March 02 2019 02:30 renaissanceMAN wrote:
well that didn't work...
Obviously it did not, those sacred sheeps are only meant to show your devotion to the tyrant.
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On March 02 2019 02:32 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2019 02:30 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2019 02:25 Bagration wrote:On March 02 2019 02:23 nojok wrote:On March 02 2019 02:22 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:17 RaFox17 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:09 starkiller123 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:06 RaFox17 wrote:On March 02 2019 02:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
I dont give a single shit about the fact that Innovation beat Serral today. In fact I'm here arguing that Serral's streak is blown completely out of proportion because a majority of it was regionlocked.
We've seen tremendous kill streaks throughout SC2's history. Serral's isn't special, it's only special because he's a foreigner, and when you start taking those special considerations into perspective there are other factors like regionlocking that need to be considered also.
Also, 4 straight GSL championships is WAY more impressive than anything Serral has done so far. That is a fact. Just want to point out that that is a subjective opinion. Winning GSL is impressive but the current format also gives the title holder a free pass to the quarterfinals. this format has been in place for years and yet no one else has been able to sweep a year of GSL with the same advantage Thank you! not even Mvp was ever able to sweep an entire year's worth of seasons. No one ever has. What Maru did last year was unprecedented in SC2 and he did it at the highest level in a tournament that wasn't locked to anyone. Serral can't claim that. He's a super skilled player whose legacy has been inflated thanks to the dumb system that WCS is using. I hate it, and I will not shut up about it until it changes. There is no way to say objectively which one had more impressive year. I think Serral deserved the player of the year award because he won GSL vs. the world and Blizzcon. Also using an argument that depends on a person not being able to imagine something is quite questionable Let's not mince words here. Serral won the "player of the year award" (who even gave that site the right to decide anything) because he was the first non-Korean to win a top tier tournament in a game that has been dominated by Koreans over the last 20 years. He won because of his ethnic origin. If he was a Korean player that award would have gone to a different player playing a different game. Can we use the B word if Serral wins this event? Honestly the B-word was fine to use after he won Blizzcon - he basically had a perfect WCS season Rogue won 3 tournaments with all the top players in the row in 2017/2018 and wasn't considered a bonjwa except by Artosis. Serral has won 2 now, if he wins this he's as dominant as Rogue was last year But he also dropped out in the Ro32 in GSL, that's what killed the hype train.
that was after his Shanghai - Super Tournament - Blizzcon streak though.
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On March 02 2019 02:29 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2019 02:27 dysenterymd wrote:
The only people who over hype Serral are the people who call him a bonjwa. Pretty much any other level of praise is justified. BTW Serral is the favorite to win IEM at this point, and if/when he does I will lap up all the tears.
If, over the next two years, Serral wins another four tournaments like GSL vs the world/Blizzcon/IEM or plays in/wins a Code S we can start discussing the B-word.
If Serral wins a Code S I will take back every negative thing I have ever said in this thread. The fact he hasn't even TRIED to qualify yet is one of the main things that bothers me right now.
I too think that the case for Serral would be much stronger if he competed in a Code S. But I also don't think the fact he hasn't tried should be held against him -- what he's doing right now is working very well for him, and moving to South Korea to play in GSL would be a massive change to the way he practices.
This is why I think Serral's nationality is at least somewhat relevant to discussing how good he is as a player (or how talented/historic he is.) When it comes to prize money, the current system disproportionately rewards non-koreans financially. But due to inter server lag and the lack of good EU Terrans, I think Koreans do still have a large structural advantage when it comes to reaching the absolute highest levels of play. (FWIW, the same reasoning could be used to more highly value Polt's achievements while he lived in the USA.)
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EPT
