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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On December 15 2016 14:54 ChristianS wrote:
So I haven't watched a lot of games on it, but it seems like this patch has probably been pretty rough on Terran? Increased health and damage on the tank doesn't seem to really offset the loss of mobility with medivacs, especially against blinding cloud or corrosive bile, and lib nerf + bane buff seems to make muta/ling/bane a bit of a nightmare.
You guys have probably watched more post-patch games than me, is that what you've been seeing? I don't really know about TvP, I haven't seen much of it yet.
I straight up think Maru is bad at TvP so I can't judge that matchup based on his play.
I heard it's a Zerg favored meta from multiple pros.
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On December 15 2016 14:54 ChristianS wrote:
So I haven't watched a lot of games on it, but it seems like this patch has probably been pretty rough on Terran? Increased health and damage on the tank doesn't seem to really offset the loss of mobility with medivacs, especially against blinding cloud or corrosive bile, and lib nerf + bane buff seems to make muta/ling/bane a bit of a nightmare.
You guys have probably watched more post-patch games than me, is that what you've been seeing? I don't really know about TvP, I haven't seen much of it yet.
We actually cannot be too sure. The removal of the Tankivac surely reduced the power of a few Terran aggressive options, such as the 2-Tankivac follow-up to the 16 Marine 2-1-1 drop, which became somewhat easier to defend since the Tanks are just sitting ducks. Furthermore, a lot of the games simply developed into standard MZB vs 4M games, which are balanced for both sides (but this was actually previously Terran-favoured since the Liberator exterminated Mutalisks, which is no longer the case) . We will need to wait for more time, but thus far, yes, Roach-Ravager timings (you just saw one in which Dark maxed out while ByuN was on 121 supply) seem incredibly powerful.
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On December 15 2016 14:56 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2016 14:54 ChristianS wrote:
So I haven't watched a lot of games on it, but it seems like this patch has probably been pretty rough on Terran? Increased health and damage on the tank doesn't seem to really offset the loss of mobility with medivacs, especially against blinding cloud or corrosive bile, and lib nerf + bane buff seems to make muta/ling/bane a bit of a nightmare.
You guys have probably watched more post-patch games than me, is that what you've been seeing? I don't really know about TvP, I haven't seen much of it yet. the baneling buff seems to be really strong but I think it's to early to make conclusions on balance. tvp looks pretty fair. only thing I absolutely detest at the moment is the burrow-fungal coinflip mechanic.
Oh, I wouldn't want to make any statements about game balance yet. It's totally possible Terrans will figure this shit out tomorrow, but it sure looks like so far it's not great for T. The burrow fungal thing does seem problematic though, it would be cool to see the burrowed infestors be weaker somehow (reduced casting range maybe?)
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
You can't judge burrowed infestors from that game since ByuN was so far behind he couldn't afford better tec, more units or scans to deal with them.
They could be problematic, but that isn't the game that tells me one way or another.
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Does anyone know the wcs point spread for this tournament 0_0
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On December 15 2016 15:00 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2016 14:56 Charoisaur wrote:On December 15 2016 14:54 ChristianS wrote:
So I haven't watched a lot of games on it, but it seems like this patch has probably been pretty rough on Terran? Increased health and damage on the tank doesn't seem to really offset the loss of mobility with medivacs, especially against blinding cloud or corrosive bile, and lib nerf + bane buff seems to make muta/ling/bane a bit of a nightmare.
You guys have probably watched more post-patch games than me, is that what you've been seeing? I don't really know about TvP, I haven't seen much of it yet. the baneling buff seems to be really strong but I think it's to early to make conclusions on balance. tvp looks pretty fair. only thing I absolutely detest at the moment is the burrow-fungal coinflip mechanic. Oh, I wouldn't want to make any statements about game balance yet. It's totally possible Terrans will figure this shit out tomorrow, but it sure looks like so far it's not great for T. The burrow fungal thing does seem problematic though, it would be cool to see the burrowed infestors be weaker somehow (reduced casting range maybe?)
The burrow-infestor thing is a design problem more so than a balance problem.
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On December 15 2016 15:01 stuchiu wrote:
You can't judge burrowed infestors from that game since ByuN was so far behind he couldn't afford better tec, more units or scans to deal with them.
Yeah, but I think it seems fairly obvious that burrowed Infestors are a very powerful defensive tool that can be used to turtle very hard since the creep vision (and how Terran units move on them) makes it very easy for Zerg to just sit on creep and use the fungal to hit before the Terran declumps his units
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On December 15 2016 15:01 stuchiu wrote:
You can't judge burrowed infestors from that game since ByuN was so far behind he couldn't afford better tec, more units or scans to deal with them.
They could be problematic, but that isn't the game that tells me one way or another.
As ZigguratOfUr says, I more meant problematic from a design perspective. As in, I'm not eager to return to the WoL era of "oops, you looked away from your army for 0.001 seconds and now your whole army is dead, gg," even if we do find a way to make it balanced somehow.
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On December 15 2016 15:01 stuchiu wrote:
You can't judge burrowed infestors from that game since ByuN was so far behind he couldn't afford better tec, more units or scans to deal with them.
They could be problematic, but that isn't the game that tells me one way or another.
I don't dislike burrow-fungal because of balance issues but more because there's not really counterplay to them other than getting lucky with a scan. terran can't afford a raven with bio play and 1 fungal on a clump of bio can instantly end the game.
even if it's fine balance-wise I don't like that you can instantly lose the game without doing anything wrong other than not guessing the correct time to scan.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On December 15 2016 15:05 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2016 15:01 stuchiu wrote:
You can't judge burrowed infestors from that game since ByuN was so far behind he couldn't afford better tec, more units or scans to deal with them.
They could be problematic, but that isn't the game that tells me one way or another. I don't dislike burrow-fungal because of balance issues but more because there's not really counterplay to them other than getting lucky with a scan. terran can't afford a raven with bio play and 1 fungal on a clump of bio can instantly end the game. even if it's fine balance-wise I don't like that you can instantly lose the game without doing anything wrong other than not guessing the correct time to scan.
Raven isn't counter play. It's too slow. If you wanted counter play, you'd need to have a great intuitive sense of where they are unseen and then scan. Only T player I can think of that did do that was Taeja.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
The theoretical counter play is that infestors eliminate mutas (as an option) from the tech tree so you can ramp up harassment and aggression with liberators and drops.
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I love seeing Mutalisks again :D
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i missed you ling bane muta
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On December 15 2016 15:08 stuchiu wrote:
The theoretical counter play is that infestors eliminate mutas (as an option) from the tech tree so you can ramp up harassment and aggression with liberators and drops.
Just curious; which Terran player did you think had the best anti-Mutalisk tactics of all time? As in, those who were best at countering large flocks (>20) of mutalisks and actually managing to completely nullify their effectiveness
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Dear God these two are ridiculous.
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this is the TvZ i remember :D
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I've missed those kind of games this year
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Norway839 Posts
echo has a very cool flow to it in zvt after 3 base, it almost always ends up in this scrappy situation with terran on one base vs a mineral starved zerg muta cloud. this game follows the standard echo flow with very good execution from both players
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EPT
