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On June 25 2016 06:40 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 25 2016 06:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 25 2016 06:33 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 25 2016 06:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 25 2016 06:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 25 2016 06:22 Penev wrote:On June 25 2016 06:20 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:i'm happy she won but now they won't buff zerg after that win  Nah, I'm sure Blizz knows foreign T's suck to be perfectly honest outside Dark Korean Z suck too relatively to their T/P counterparts That doesn't matter. Even if you could quantify absolute skill which you absolutely cannot, Blizzard should still strive for relative balance. Polt was talking about it yesterday. Let's imagine I'm right and Dark is the only Z to be top 20 KR raw skill wise. If you strive for relative balance so that soO/Curious/Rogue/ByuL enter that top 20 and Z was actually fine you end up making Z imbalanced. But as I said I agree Z slight early game buffs are needed, and they're going to happen, so I don't even know why we're arguing here. That's not what balance is. Being balanced and being "fair" is correlated, but it isn't the same thing. And for tournaments' sake Blizzard needs balance, but does not necessarily need "fairness". When you have balance, fairness is usually self-correcting. I disagree. Racial balance is irrelevant as long as the game is fair. Let's say SC2 was tennis and every player picked a race. Maybe Federer, Djokovic and Nadal all pick T, maybe we have T-P-Z. But in one case T wins everything and in the other it's kinda balanced, while the game remains fair. Fairness is un-quantifiable. Using that sort of logic, you can argue that any imbalance is "fair".
Of course it is unquantifiable and we have to argue and throw arguments/numbers/examples at each other to know if an imbalance is fair or not. I say the current imbalance (lack of Z at the highest level) is probably not fair and Z needs a slight early game buff while lib range needs to go and adept shade cooldown needs to be heavily nerfed. But I'm ready to discuss those points.
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On June 25 2016 06:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 25 2016 06:33 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 25 2016 06:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 25 2016 06:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 25 2016 06:22 Penev wrote:On June 25 2016 06:20 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:i'm happy she won but now they won't buff zerg after that win Nah, I'm sure Blizz knows foreign T's suck to be perfectly honest outside Dark Korean Z suck too relatively to their T/P counterparts That doesn't matter. Even if you could quantify absolute skill which you absolutely cannot, Blizzard should still strive for relative balance. Polt was talking about it yesterday. Let's imagine I'm right and Dark is the only Z to be top 20 KR raw skill wise. If you strive for relative balance so that soO/Curious/Rogue/ByuL enter that top 20 and Z was actually fine you end up making Z imbalanced. But as I said I agree Z slight early game buffs are needed, and they're going to happen, so I don't even know why we're arguing here. That's not what balance is. Being balanced and being "fair" is correlated, but it isn't the same thing. And for tournaments' sake Blizzard needs balance, but does not necessarily need "fairness". When you have balance, fairness is usually self-correcting. I disagree. Racial balance is irrelevant as long as the game is fair. Let's say SC2 was tennis and every player picked a race. Maybe Federer, Djokovic and Nadal all pick T, maybe we have T-P-Z. But in one case T wins everything and in the other it's kinda balanced, while the game remains fair.
Is this the "Protoss and Terran players are just better" argument?
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On June 25 2016 06:45 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 25 2016 06:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 25 2016 06:33 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 25 2016 06:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 25 2016 06:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 25 2016 06:22 Penev wrote:On June 25 2016 06:20 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:i'm happy she won but now they won't buff zerg after that win Nah, I'm sure Blizz knows foreign T's suck to be perfectly honest outside Dark Korean Z suck too relatively to their T/P counterparts That doesn't matter. Even if you could quantify absolute skill which you absolutely cannot, Blizzard should still strive for relative balance. Polt was talking about it yesterday. Let's imagine I'm right and Dark is the only Z to be top 20 KR raw skill wise. If you strive for relative balance so that soO/Curious/Rogue/ByuL enter that top 20 and Z was actually fine you end up making Z imbalanced. But as I said I agree Z slight early game buffs are needed, and they're going to happen, so I don't even know why we're arguing here. That's not what balance is. Being balanced and being "fair" is correlated, but it isn't the same thing. And for tournaments' sake Blizzard needs balance, but does not necessarily need "fairness". When you have balance, fairness is usually self-correcting. I disagree. Racial balance is irrelevant as long as the game is fair. Let's say SC2 was tennis and every player picked a race. Maybe Federer, Djokovic and Nadal all pick T, maybe we have T-P-Z. But in one case T wins everything and in the other it's kinda balanced, while the game remains fair. Is this the "Protoss and Terran players are just better" argument?
I said like 10 times already I think this is not the case here, but it could be. It's absolutely not an argument you should not take into account, especially when at lower "high" levels (foreign scene for instance) Z is doing OKish and P is virtually not played below diamond.
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On June 25 2016 06:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:40 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 25 2016 06:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 25 2016 06:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 25 2016 06:33 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 25 2016 06:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 25 2016 06:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 25 2016 06:22 Penev wrote:On June 25 2016 06:20 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:i'm happy she won but now they won't buff zerg after that win Nah, I'm sure Blizz knows foreign T's suck to be perfectly honest outside Dark Korean Z suck too relatively to their T/P counterparts That doesn't matter. Even if you could quantify absolute skill which you absolutely cannot, Blizzard should still strive for relative balance. Polt was talking about it yesterday. Let's imagine I'm right and Dark is the only Z to be top 20 KR raw skill wise. If you strive for relative balance so that soO/Curious/Rogue/ByuL enter that top 20 and Z was actually fine you end up making Z imbalanced. But as I said I agree Z slight early game buffs are needed, and they're going to happen, so I don't even know why we're arguing here. That's not what balance is. Being balanced and being "fair" is correlated, but it isn't the same thing. And for tournaments' sake Blizzard needs balance, but does not necessarily need "fairness". When you have balance, fairness is usually self-correcting. I disagree. Racial balance is irrelevant as long as the game is fair. Let's say SC2 was tennis and every player picked a race. Maybe Federer, Djokovic and Nadal all pick T, maybe we have T-P-Z. But in one case T wins everything and in the other it's kinda balanced, while the game remains fair. Fairness is un-quantifiable. Using that sort of logic, you can argue that any imbalance is "fair". Of course it is unquantifiable and we have to argue and throw arguments/numbers/examples at each other to know if an imbalance is fair or not. I say the current imbalance (lack of Z at the highest level) is probably not fair and Z needs a slight early game buff while lib range needs to go and adept shade cooldown needs to be heavily nerfed. But I'm ready to discuss those points.
Since it's unquantifiable, what do you even argue about? How you "feel" about the relative skill of the player of the different races? All the numbers and examples will only reflect "balance", and not any sort of "absolute skill". So at the end of the day you can only aim for balance. Also for the viewers' sake you want balance not fairness.
edit: Also these calls from the casters aren't the best.
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this game and the banter are hilarious
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ha ha ha this is so funny
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ha ha feel you PtitDrogo, know that feeling when you can spend 2000 gas as well
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This game is confusing
The couch is awesome
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the comps for this game is amazing
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He really does sound like Huk.
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omg he does actually sound like Huk
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These games aren't making me have more faith in my fellow countrymen.
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On June 25 2016 07:00 chipmonklord17 wrote:
omg he does actually sound like Huk
yeah when he said it I was like "my God he's right"
also what a dreadfully fun game, great silly casting
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LMFAO Geoff just absolutely destroyed Noregret
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EPT
