EPTOn April 24 2016 02:53 Hider wrote:
He is good TvT but pretty bad in the other matchups.
He is good TvT but pretty bad in the other matchups.
I agree his TvZ is comparatively weak, but in TvP he's still easily among the best Koreans.
[GSL] Code S Season 1 2016 - Semifinal 2 - Page 21
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Elentos
55568 Posts
I agree his TvZ is comparatively weak, but in TvP he's still easily among the best Koreans. | ||
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DMXD
United States4064 Posts
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
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Elentos
55568 Posts
On April 24 2016 05:52 Daswollvieh wrote: And then TY rips off his mask and it's sOs! Prefect mind game. And then he's disqualified for playing under false pretenses and Zest gets the only ever default win in a GSL finals? Hmm. I'm not sure that's worse than the average teamkill finals in SC2. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On April 24 2016 00:27 Daswollvieh wrote: I believe it´s hard to come to a conclusion here, because there are good arguments for both sides, which cannot be disproved. So it comes down to a matter of how you set your priorities. Skill peak vs comparative skill: I agree with you that we have the highest skill level of SC2 right now. But whether Zest is the "better" player than Mvp depends on what constitutes better. I would say that Zest at his peak would beat Mvp at his peak. But Mvp, for me, is the greater player, precisely because he rose in a weaker state of the game. While a higher competitive level makes it harder to win, it also makes it easier to improve and become as godly as possible. Because you have many great minds working together to shave off any bit of inefficiency left, the dominant player is, in a way, carried by the competition. In a way, the overall skill-level seems to work as a kind of overall skill-ceiling. When the game is not figured out, yet, and there´s plenty of bitbybit-clowns left, you have to climb on your own and define the meta yourself. Sure, later on, mechanically more gifted players may defeat you, because they profited from your ground work, but in my book, that doesn´t make them "better". Format is somewhat similar to me, because it seems to make quite a difference for players. You can rate preparation higher, as it leads to more "perfect" games. Then Starleagues and PL are where the best players are defined. Or you can rate weakenders higher, because a player cannot rely on perfect reproduction of training, but needs endurance, versatility, and the mind-set to be tested again and again. I agree though, that not all the greatest players took part in a significant amount of weekend tournaments, while practically all great player took part in SLs/PL. Still, personally, I value week-end tournaments higher, because the players have to rely more on themselves and less on the team/coach. That´s why Taeja is a big-ass GOAT to me, even without success in Korea. In the end, it´s a matter of how you set your priorities. It's not about the skill level, that point is trivial. Obviously players now are more skilled than players back then. It's about the level of competition, how hard it is to be one of the best players. How much effort you have to put into the game to get there. The Kespa switch simply made the whole scene way more competitive for a lot of reasons. I will use an example: Let's say at the start of sc2 only foreigners would have played the game (koreans still bw) and Idra would have won 90% of the tournaments. That would be impressive, sure but the level of competition would have been rather weak regardless (no teamhouses, no coaches, etc) Nobody would ever argue that Idra would be the GOAT in this case. Basically the same happened though, not to the same extent (which is why i exaggerated the example) but you get the point. Mvp was great, he was the best in his era by far. Why? Because it also was easier comparatively imo. Talking about "innovation" again: I think this factor is simply not tangible. Who really knows which progamer/coach/random guy on the street developed a new strategy? Nobody. We simply see one or more players using it effectively in live matches. That's it. In reality new meta developments are probably achieved because a lot of progamers do their stuff on ladder/in teamhouses, they perfect the concept and voilà: a new meta develops because of it. Pointing towards one player and saying he innovated the game is ridiculous imo, he may have used it the most efficient in live games and that's where the viewers see it the first time, but that doesn't mean he innovated anything. Which is why i think this "factor" is in fact a non factor when valuing players. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On April 24 2016 05:22 Elentos wrote: I agree his TvZ is comparatively weak, but in TvP he's still easily among the best Koreans. In TvP? No. First of he has bad early game (like alot of other terrans in the matchup). Further, his late game is gimmicky and relies on the opponent being impatient. He won't seek out any advantages when he has them and will just make constant counterattacks while turtling with Ravens. When he meets someone that defends against his counterattacks with High Templars and cannons he will lose as he cannot win a straight up fight against Tempests + HT. (Ravens can only delay). And I am pretty sure Zest is gonna crush him easily. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On April 24 2016 08:53 Hider wrote: In TvP? No. First of he has bad early game (like alot of other terrans in the matchup). Further, his late game is gimmicky and relies on the opponent being impatient. He won't seek out any advantages when he has them and will just make constant counterattacks while turtling with Ravens. When he meets someone that defends against his counterattacks with High Templars and cannons he will lose as he cannot win a straight up fight against Tempests + HT. (Ravens can only delay). And I am pretty sure Zest is gonna crush him easily. It's quite a stretch to say his TvP is bad when he has a 69% winrate since beginning of the year. When he meets someone that defends against his counterattacks with High Templars and cannons he will lose as he cannot win a straight up fight against Tempests + HT That is like saying Maru's Hots TvP was bad because it relied on his mechanics and not strategy. It doesn't matter if at the end of the day you win. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On April 24 2016 04:25 Ctesias wrote: Having two KT players showing such dominance in the GSL handidly makes up for the mediocre performance in SPL. Going to be great having a KT champion again. Hopefully it's TY! I actually wonder what the impact is when you have four players (Losira, Stats, Zest, and TY) go quite far in the GSL/SSL. Cause what they might be focusing on is series preparation as opposed to Proleague preparation, or at least, they aren't able to focus on it 100% like Innovation is. | ||
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Srdjan11
3 Posts
I am old school player from Serbia (BroodWar username: vanilica) I am visiting Seoul between 30. april, and 8.may On what shows do you guys recommend me to go? And do you know where will they be held? My friend sugested me to go to Code-S finals on 1st of may, but I can not find the location where it will be held. Thanks in advance, Srdjan | ||
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Dionyseus
United States2068 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
It's quite a stretch to say his TvP is bad when he has a 69% winrate since beginning of the year. As I wrote he has been winning TvP in mid/late game because his opponent gets too impatient. But watch the games against Dear and see how his late game style was exposed. There is no way Zest is gonna overcommit and not leave defenses at home for a counterattack. And if you study his VODS, that is literrally the win condition of TY in every single late game TvP. He will never take his whole army and try to outmicro the opponent in an actual engagement - Even if he has a lead. That is like saying Maru's Hots TvP was bad because it relied on his mechanics and not strategy. Well Maru's style was never gonna work in the long haul (the concept of skipping ghosts and only on rare occations building vikings) but it was fun to watch while it lasted. But this is a different scenario. The counter to Maru wasn't just "strategy" but mechanics. The reason for that was that protoss had to defend with very few units at multiple bases. Against Ty, it's literrally just a strategic adjustment you need to make. Players didn't adjust properly in early LOTV against him, but now that there is a lot more footage on his macro playstyle out there,and we should expect protoss players (like Dear did) to adjust and beat him. If you cannot beat Dear and Trap + he also just won 3-2 against Showtime (having watched the games yet though) --> How are you gonna take more than 1 game against Zest? | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On April 24 2016 19:22 Hider wrote: As I wrote he has been winning TvP in mid/late game because his opponent gets too impatient. But watch the games against Dear and see how his late game style was exposed. There is no way Zest is gonna overcommit and not leave defenses at home for a counterattack. And if you study his VODS, that is literrally the win condition of TY in every single late game TvP. He will never take his whole army and try to outmicro the opponent in an actual engagement - Even if he has a lead. Well Maru's style was never gonna work in the long haul (the concept of skipping ghosts and only on rare occations building vikings) but it was fun to watch while it lasted. But this is a different scenario. The counter to Maru wasn't just "strategy" but mechanics. Against Ty, it's literrally just a strategic adjustment you need to make. Players didn't adjust properly in early LOTV against him, but now that there is a lot more footage on his macro playstyle out there,and we should expect protoss players (like Dear did) to adjust and beat him. If you cannot beat Dear and Trap + he also just won 3-2 against Showtime (having watched the games yet though) --> How are you gonna take more than 1 game against Zest? I think Zest is gonna smash TY but i wouldnt count those games against showtime as anything important. He only lost on two silly cheeses he tried. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On April 24 2016 19:44 Phredxor wrote: I think Zest is gonna smash TY but i wouldnt count those games against showtime as anything important. He only lost on two silly cheeses he tried. Well not surprising. Ty's early game is just bad in both TvZ and TvP. Since protoss early game agression is basically risk-free we should expect a few early game aggression builds from Zest. And I just don't see any imaginable way in which Ty can win. Like even if he gets ahead in the midgame, he is not gonna take advantage of the lead and kill Zest. He is just gonna turtle while droppping around and Zest just isn't gonna lose to that. So as long as Zest can beat Ty late game w/ Tempest + HT, Zest should 4-0 him. | ||
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Elentos
55568 Posts
On April 24 2016 19:09 Dionyseus wrote: Where's the vods? I found the Korean version, would like the English version. https://www.twitch.tv/gsl/v/62091378 They're not on Youtube yet but should be within a few days. | ||
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Lil_nooblet
United States459 Posts
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NinjaToss
Austria1383 Posts
On April 24 2016 20:43 Lil_nooblet wrote: I think one of the biggest factors in Zest vs TY will be Zest's experience on the big stage. The final is going to be in a big auditorium in front of a huge crowd and I wonder how TY will react with it being his first final. We all know Zest won't be fazed but I wonder if it will effect TY's play at all. As Zest himself put it, he's a veteran player, he has been in the finals (and win them) several times, whereas this is TY's first time. The experience aspect leans towards Zest, so does the match up. However, this being a teamkill finals will bring a lot of weird stuff and might cancel out Zest's advantages | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
And if he wants to attack before he gets Ghost out, then he should start his ghost academy earlier so his timings are lined up so he actually can take advantage of being up 50 supply. His overall playstyle is simply completely relied upon being able to win the very very late game vs toss and you don't do that against a skilled protoss that doesn't die to counterattacks/doom drops in the late game. But after Ty threw his gigantic lead, Showtime came back and for mysterious reason thought it was good to attack against Ty at 165 supply (???) when Ty still had better ups + ghosts out + critical amount of Vikings. That was just a bad decision by Showtime. Unlikely that Zest will do the same. | ||
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bestviva
148 Posts
On April 24 2016 20:43 Lil_nooblet wrote: I think one of the biggest factors in Zest vs TY will be Zest's experience on the big stage. The final is going to be in a big auditorium in front of a huge crowd and I wonder how TY will react with it being his first final. We all know Zest won't be fazed but I wonder if it will effect TY's play at all. I agree, Zest has won couple championship before, he has been on those big stages , so he will definitely know how to deal with the pressure things. | ||
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DinosaurPoop
687 Posts
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