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On April 23 2016 00:37 stuchiu wrote:
I don't know what anyone means by undervalue PL. I value it for what it is a team league.
The only time I ever talk about Taeja's IPL TAC run is when the topic of best run ever done is brought up.
Same players play in weekenders as they play in GSL. Not all of them, but a lot of them did in the past.
But if you want to somehow say a 6-2 round in PL and a cross finals is somehow better than Blizcon, SSL Top 4, DH WInter 2nd, IEM 1st and Life's 5-4 in PL go ahead.
PL is the most competitive team league. Doing well there is something only the best of the best achieve. Taeja didn't btw (i had to, sry)
Not nearly all of them, which is exactly the point i tried to make. Yes there are a handfull of Starleague players at some of those weekend tournaments. That's not the same though. It isn't as easy as saying "hey Innovation, Zest and soO are there, this Dreamhack is basically a GSL". No it's not, not even close. Innovation, Zest and soO probably lose to some other guy in GSL because it simply was/is that competitive there.
Taeja would be one of many in the Starleagues, that's exactly the reason we don't have these big multiple winners, because it's freaking hard to do. Taeja winning all these premiers is a symptom of them being way, way easier, not him being way, way better. (again i don't wanna say it isn't impressive at all, it isn't as impressive as people always say though)
Same for Mvp btw, back then the competition was basically a joke compared to now. It's not comparable at all, which is why he never ever can be the GOAT in my book. (still very high on the list because you obviously cannot devalue these Starleagues to the point where he wouldn't be topX at least)
But if you want to somehow say a 6-2 round in PL and a cross finals is somehow better than Blizcon, SSL Top 4, DH WInter 2nd, IEM 1st and Life's 5-4 in PL go ahead.
No i don't wanna say that. But as i stated before Zest's run didn't end yet, as of right now he clearly isn't at the same lvl. He obviously has less to play in in the same time span. But that would arguably make his run even better if it was over a timespan even longer (with the same amount of success)
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On April 22 2016 23:16 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 23:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 22 2016 22:58 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 22 2016 22:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 22 2016 22:12 TheDougler wrote:
So Zest has only dropped one game this GSL season.
Is this the most dominant GSL run since Neatea's perfect tournament? Stuchiu probably would know this without checking, lol I would guess that's the case though and in a way more competitive era that is! If dominant means win rate then yes it is Well not just that, but it doesn't feel like he could lose for the most part. His games are amazing to watch, i bet pretty much any protoss would have lost the first game today after going for that proxy. Zest still won. I am a little bit sorry for "being an annoying Zest fanboy" but sorry not sorry  On April 22 2016 23:03 IntoTheheart wrote:
Silvana's banners are always really good. Totally agreed! Now i have high expectations for the finals banner :D Although I wouldn't be stunned if they went with this. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/467600-wcs-eu-ro16-group-c-season-3-2014
Oh god my eyes! The banner is good, I like the idea, but that picture... Ewww
Glad you like my banners guys, my Photoshop skills got +3 since I started doing them :D
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Innovation spent years playing weekenders.
He has 1 weak ass gamescom.
He also has 2 starleagues, a WCS Season finals and a 2nd place.
If weekenders were freebies where are all of his trophies?
Also there's no point in bringing up more competitive era to me, since we will never agree.
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I mean not every Code S player would automatically be high lvl in this other format. I am fairly confident in saying that if all of them would play every single weekend tournament that a lot of them would be high lvl there as well though.
Why Innovation specifically didn't do as well? No idea, maybe he cannot deal with travelling, maybe he is overly reliant on preparation, there could be a lot of reasons.
That's only one example though.
Why don't you agree with that though? I think it is quite straight forward that the Kespa switch increased the level of professionalism by quite a lot. The simple addition of proleague already makes a huge difference because all the top player have to train all the time because there is always something important to play.
But the higher lvl of professionalism (coaches, stricter practice, arguably overall better player pool to begin with, etc) alone is imo not really attackable as a statement. Apparently you disgaree though.
edit: I am kinda sorry this is a huge discussion again, but forums are there to discuss things and the livereport thread is the next best place to discuss this after the matches are over anyway.
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On April 22 2016 22:58 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 22:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 22 2016 22:12 TheDougler wrote:
So Zest has only dropped one game this GSL season.
Is this the most dominant GSL run since Neatea's perfect tournament? Stuchiu probably would know this without checking, lol I would guess that's the case though and in a way more competitive era that is! If dominant means win rate then yes it is
For sure. Just talking about win rate here. That's really quite a feat. I feel like Nestea's perfect run will one day be thought of as an unmatchable record (until someone does it again one day to prove that belief incorrect).
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I'm so depressed.
First the thing bout Life, now Dear got stomped 
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These games show that the phoenix needs a nerf. Make it so that when the pheonix takes damage, graviton beam is canceled.
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On April 23 2016 16:30 Loccstana wrote:
These games show that the phoenix needs a nerf. Make it so that when the pheonix takes damage, graviton beam is canceled.
Or that shots /spells with a duration aren't canceled. It's really silly how easily they counter purifiers right now.
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no phoenix are fine without them there ist no way not every game ends in disruptor wars. and 1 nova still hit zests army a bit more and everything would be shreddered
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On April 23 2016 01:03 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I mean not every Code S player would automatically be high lvl in this other format. I am fairly confident in saying that if all of them would play every single weekend tournament that a lot of them would be high lvl there as well though.
Why Innovation specifically didn't do as well? No idea, maybe he cannot deal with travelling, maybe he is overly reliant on preparation, there could be a lot of reasons.
That's only one example though.
Why don't you agree with that though? I think it is quite straight forward that the Kespa switch increased the level of professionalism by quite a lot. The simple addition of proleague already makes a huge difference because all the top player have to train all the time because there is always something important to play.
But the higher lvl of professionalism (coaches, stricter practice, arguably overall better player pool to begin with, etc) alone is imo not really attackable as a statement. Apparently you disgaree though.
edit: I am kinda sorry this is a huge discussion again, but forums are there to discuss things and the livereport thread is the next best place to discuss this after the matches are over anyway.
I believe it´s hard to come to a conclusion here, because there are good arguments for both sides, which cannot be disproved. So it comes down to a matter of how you set your priorities.
Skill peak vs comparative skill:
I agree with you that we have the highest skill level of SC2 right now. But whether Zest is the "better" player than Mvp depends on what constitutes better. I would say that Zest at his peak would beat Mvp at his peak. But Mvp, for me, is the greater player, precisely because he rose in a weaker state of the game. While a higher competitive level makes it harder to win, it also makes it easier to improve and become as godly as possible. Because you have many great minds working together to shave off any bit of inefficiency left, the dominant player is, in a way, carried by the competition. In a way, the overall skill-level seems to work as a kind of overall skill-ceiling. When the game is not figured out, yet, and there´s plenty of bitbybit-clowns left, you have to climb on your own and define the meta yourself. Sure, later on, mechanically more gifted players may defeat you, because they profited from your ground work, but in my book, that doesn´t make them "better".
Format is somewhat similar to me, because it seems to make quite a difference for players. You can rate preparation higher, as it leads to more "perfect" games. Then Starleagues and PL are where the best players are defined.
Or you can rate weakenders higher, because a player cannot rely on perfect reproduction of training, but needs endurance, versatility, and the mind-set to be tested again and again.
I agree though, that not all the greatest players took part in a significant amount of weekend tournaments, while practically all great player took part in SLs/PL. Still, personally, I value week-end tournaments higher, because the players have to rely more on themselves and less on the team/coach. That´s why Taeja is a big-ass GOAT to me, even without success in Korea.
In the end, it´s a matter of how you set your priorities.
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Austria24422 Posts
On April 22 2016 23:59 sharkie wrote:
Zest's run has been quite easy so far.
Taeja Ro8, Dear PvP Ro4 and now a teammate in finals.
Only his win vs soO is noteworthy
Just saw this comment and had to reply because it's massively ridiculous.
3-0 Maru (top 2 terran)
5-0 Taeja (top 5 terran probably)
2-1 Journey (who actually played well)
2-0 soO (top 3 zerg)
2-0 Cure (top 3 terran, GSL semifinalist)
4-0 Dear (who's the 2nd best protoss in the world)
Now plays TY (top 2 terran)
You're absolutely deluded if you think this is an easy run. It's hard and it's been one of the most dominant as well.
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On April 24 2016 02:11 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 23:59 sharkie wrote:
Zest's run has been quite easy so far.
Taeja Ro8, Dear PvP Ro4 and now a teammate in finals.
Only his win vs soO is noteworthy Just saw this comment and had to reply because it's massively ridiculous. 3-0 Maru (top 2 terran) 5-0 Taeja (top 5 terran probably) 2-1 Journey (who actually played well) 2-0 soO (top 3 zerg) 2-0 Cure (top 3 terran, GSL semifinalist) 4-0 Dear (who's the 2nd best protoss in the world) Now plays TY (top 2 terran) You're absolutely deluded if you think this is an easy run. It's hard and it's been one of the most dominant as well.
I think you are both exagerating. Isn't Taeja kinda retired? What has he done recently? Why is Dear 2nd best protoss in the world? Honestly, the only reason to call him that is reaching the semis, but that's a lot of a a self-fulfilling prophecy. I definitely agree that Zests run has been impressive as far as GSL runs usually go, but the playing field is still quite unstable - with Zest being actually one of the very few consistently great players.
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On April 24 2016 02:16 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:11 Olli wrote:On April 22 2016 23:59 sharkie wrote:
Zest's run has been quite easy so far.
Taeja Ro8, Dear PvP Ro4 and now a teammate in finals.
Only his win vs soO is noteworthy Just saw this comment and had to reply because it's massively ridiculous. 3-0 Maru (top 2 terran) 5-0 Taeja (top 5 terran probably) 2-1 Journey (who actually played well) 2-0 soO (top 3 zerg) 2-0 Cure (top 3 terran, GSL semifinalist) 4-0 Dear (who's the 2nd best protoss in the world) Now plays TY (top 2 terran) You're absolutely deluded if you think this is an easy run. It's hard and it's been one of the most dominant as well. I think you are both exagerating. Isn't Taeja kinda retired? What has he done recently? Why is Dear 2nd best protoss in the world? Honestly, the only reason to call him that is reaching the semis, but that's a lot of a a self-fulfilling prophecy. I definitely agree that Zests run has been impressive as far as GSL runs usually go, but the playing field is still quite unstable - with Zest being actually one of the very few consistently great players.
There's not much ground to question Dear. The only Protoss consistently outperforming him so far has been Zest. Considering his performance in 2016 so far, there's not really anyone else you can put ahead of him in good conscience.
I definitely don't see TaeJa as a top 5 Terran atm though.
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Austria24422 Posts
Taeja played very well this season. There's TY and Maru who are better than all other terrans, then there's Cure, Dream and the 5th spot is between Innovation and Taeja. Innovation I'm straight up not impressed with, while Taeja played well. So I'd put him in my top 5 terrans. Not that it really matters, because Zest would have to beat the top 2 (maybe 3, if you count Cure) terrans to win this season anyway, as well as beating the second best protoss (there's no grounds to give it to anyone but Dear, herO isn't good enough) and a top 3 zerg in soO. No matter how you look at it, this isn't an easy run by any means.
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On April 24 2016 02:25 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:16 opisska wrote:On April 24 2016 02:11 Olli wrote:On April 22 2016 23:59 sharkie wrote:
Zest's run has been quite easy so far.
Taeja Ro8, Dear PvP Ro4 and now a teammate in finals.
Only his win vs soO is noteworthy Just saw this comment and had to reply because it's massively ridiculous. 3-0 Maru (top 2 terran) 5-0 Taeja (top 5 terran probably) 2-1 Journey (who actually played well) 2-0 soO (top 3 zerg) 2-0 Cure (top 3 terran, GSL semifinalist) 4-0 Dear (who's the 2nd best protoss in the world) Now plays TY (top 2 terran) You're absolutely deluded if you think this is an easy run. It's hard and it's been one of the most dominant as well. I think you are both exagerating. Isn't Taeja kinda retired? What has he done recently? Why is Dear 2nd best protoss in the world? Honestly, the only reason to call him that is reaching the semis, but that's a lot of a a self-fulfilling prophecy. I definitely agree that Zests run has been impressive as far as GSL runs usually go, but the playing field is still quite unstable - with Zest being actually one of the very few consistently great players. There's not much ground to question Dear. The only Protoss consistently outperforming him so far has been Zest. Considering his performance in 2016 so far, there's not really anyone else you can put ahead of him in good conscience. I definitely don't see TaeJa as a top 5 Terran atm though.
It's the problem of the small sample size really in Legacy - there has been just one season of SSL and GSL yet and then a lot of small tournaments with questionable importance and PL. When it comes to just that, I have to concede that the "Dear second best protoss" theory seems justified (I was honestly not aware how good was his record in PL round 1), but in a broader picture, you need to consider at least Stats, Classic, $o$ and CJ herO.
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On April 24 2016 02:34 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:25 Elentos wrote:On April 24 2016 02:16 opisska wrote:On April 24 2016 02:11 Olli wrote:On April 22 2016 23:59 sharkie wrote:
Zest's run has been quite easy so far.
Taeja Ro8, Dear PvP Ro4 and now a teammate in finals.
Only his win vs soO is noteworthy Just saw this comment and had to reply because it's massively ridiculous. 3-0 Maru (top 2 terran) 5-0 Taeja (top 5 terran probably) 2-1 Journey (who actually played well) 2-0 soO (top 3 zerg) 2-0 Cure (top 3 terran, GSL semifinalist) 4-0 Dear (who's the 2nd best protoss in the world) Now plays TY (top 2 terran) You're absolutely deluded if you think this is an easy run. It's hard and it's been one of the most dominant as well. I think you are both exagerating. Isn't Taeja kinda retired? What has he done recently? Why is Dear 2nd best protoss in the world? Honestly, the only reason to call him that is reaching the semis, but that's a lot of a a self-fulfilling prophecy. I definitely agree that Zests run has been impressive as far as GSL runs usually go, but the playing field is still quite unstable - with Zest being actually one of the very few consistently great players. There's not much ground to question Dear. The only Protoss consistently outperforming him so far has been Zest. Considering his performance in 2016 so far, there's not really anyone else you can put ahead of him in good conscience. I definitely don't see TaeJa as a top 5 Terran atm though. It's the problem of the small sample size really in Legacy - there has been just one season of SSL and GSL yet and then a lot of small tournaments with questionable importance and PL. When it comes to just that, I have to concede that the "Dear second best protoss" theory seems justified (I was honestly not aware how good was his record in PL round 1), but in a broader picture, you need to consider at least Stats, Classic, $o$ and CJ herO.
Classic was looking quite weak for a bit, he got eliminated from GSL and SSL in the same week (by Patience and SpeeD) and then took a long break (over 1 month with no offline matches). Not a contender.
sOs has a weak Proleague record, got eliminated from GSL by Dear and didn't qualify from SSL. Even if you consider his IEM win, he hasn't done much to justify being top 2 Protoss.
herO and Stats I agree would deserve a look, but herO is very up and down in his performances so far.
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On April 24 2016 02:41 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:34 opisska wrote:On April 24 2016 02:25 Elentos wrote:On April 24 2016 02:16 opisska wrote:On April 24 2016 02:11 Olli wrote:On April 22 2016 23:59 sharkie wrote:
Zest's run has been quite easy so far.
Taeja Ro8, Dear PvP Ro4 and now a teammate in finals.
Only his win vs soO is noteworthy Just saw this comment and had to reply because it's massively ridiculous. 3-0 Maru (top 2 terran) 5-0 Taeja (top 5 terran probably) 2-1 Journey (who actually played well) 2-0 soO (top 3 zerg) 2-0 Cure (top 3 terran, GSL semifinalist) 4-0 Dear (who's the 2nd best protoss in the world) Now plays TY (top 2 terran) You're absolutely deluded if you think this is an easy run. It's hard and it's been one of the most dominant as well. I think you are both exagerating. Isn't Taeja kinda retired? What has he done recently? Why is Dear 2nd best protoss in the world? Honestly, the only reason to call him that is reaching the semis, but that's a lot of a a self-fulfilling prophecy. I definitely agree that Zests run has been impressive as far as GSL runs usually go, but the playing field is still quite unstable - with Zest being actually one of the very few consistently great players. There's not much ground to question Dear. The only Protoss consistently outperforming him so far has been Zest. Considering his performance in 2016 so far, there's not really anyone else you can put ahead of him in good conscience. I definitely don't see TaeJa as a top 5 Terran atm though. It's the problem of the small sample size really in Legacy - there has been just one season of SSL and GSL yet and then a lot of small tournaments with questionable importance and PL. When it comes to just that, I have to concede that the "Dear second best protoss" theory seems justified (I was honestly not aware how good was his record in PL round 1), but in a broader picture, you need to consider at least Stats, Classic, $o$ and CJ herO. Classic was looking quite weak for a bit, he got eliminated from GSL and SSL in the same week (by Patience and SpeeD) and then took a long break (over 1 month with no offline matches). Not a contender. sOs has a weak Proleague record, got eliminated from GSL by Dear and didn't qualify from SSL. Even if you consider his IEM win, he hasn't done much to justify being top 2 Protoss. herO and Stats I agree would deserve a look, but herO is very up and down in his performances so far.
If history is anything to go by, Dear's performance might as well be a positive fluctuation. We will see - sadly, there aren't that many places to see nowadays Anyway, I didn't want to devaluate Zest's run, just to note that it's not very clear how to rank players in Korea.
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Dear PvP Ro4 and now a teammate in finals.
Eh you realize Dear is second best protoss and Ty second best terran right?
Lets just agree the best 2 players in GSL are in the finals.
Ty isn't top 2. Maru, Dark, Dear, Stats and Zest are better than him. He is good TvT but pretty bad in the other matchups.
It's factored in with the innovation of the game, which directly balances that out.
It's not like this era is he most competitive era of SC2 ever. A lot of great/good players have fallen off or retired.
Again, it depends on how you measure it. I believe run should be measured in relation to how dominant you look relative to your opposition. You don't measure that only by looking at tournament wins but rather through a more qualitative approach. Do they look like they far outclass their opponents and in all matchups?
There was never any period where Taeja looked by above the rest of his competitors. In many of his tournament wins he primary beat foreigners and in the series vs other strong koreans he didn't looked like he heavily outclassed them. But surely he was a clutch player. MVP was always too unstable and suffered for a long time in his TvP.
I think Zest's run here is comparable to that of Innovation early HOTS. Remember when Innovation lost the final 4-3 to the second best player in the world? AND IT WAS A HUGE UPSET. That's when you know you have a player who is extremely dominant as people are shocked that he losses to # 2. If Taeja had lost to Life in the final, noone would have blinked.
And the case is the same for Zest going into this final. Though Ty isn't # 2, you could put him against everybody and it would be extremely surprising if he lost.
Every game he plays he looks like he is level above that of his opponents. If he wins the final (in dominant fashion), I will count this as a the most dominant period out of any player in the history of Sc2. Becasue right now he looks heavily favored going into any matchup against any player.
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On April 24 2016 02:50 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:41 Elentos wrote:On April 24 2016 02:34 opisska wrote:On April 24 2016 02:25 Elentos wrote:On April 24 2016 02:16 opisska wrote:On April 24 2016 02:11 Olli wrote:On April 22 2016 23:59 sharkie wrote:
Zest's run has been quite easy so far.
Taeja Ro8, Dear PvP Ro4 and now a teammate in finals.
Only his win vs soO is noteworthy Just saw this comment and had to reply because it's massively ridiculous. 3-0 Maru (top 2 terran) 5-0 Taeja (top 5 terran probably) 2-1 Journey (who actually played well) 2-0 soO (top 3 zerg) 2-0 Cure (top 3 terran, GSL semifinalist) 4-0 Dear (who's the 2nd best protoss in the world) Now plays TY (top 2 terran) You're absolutely deluded if you think this is an easy run. It's hard and it's been one of the most dominant as well. I think you are both exagerating. Isn't Taeja kinda retired? What has he done recently? Why is Dear 2nd best protoss in the world? Honestly, the only reason to call him that is reaching the semis, but that's a lot of a a self-fulfilling prophecy. I definitely agree that Zests run has been impressive as far as GSL runs usually go, but the playing field is still quite unstable - with Zest being actually one of the very few consistently great players. There's not much ground to question Dear. The only Protoss consistently outperforming him so far has been Zest. Considering his performance in 2016 so far, there's not really anyone else you can put ahead of him in good conscience. I definitely don't see TaeJa as a top 5 Terran atm though. It's the problem of the small sample size really in Legacy - there has been just one season of SSL and GSL yet and then a lot of small tournaments with questionable importance and PL. When it comes to just that, I have to concede that the "Dear second best protoss" theory seems justified (I was honestly not aware how good was his record in PL round 1), but in a broader picture, you need to consider at least Stats, Classic, $o$ and CJ herO. Classic was looking quite weak for a bit, he got eliminated from GSL and SSL in the same week (by Patience and SpeeD) and then took a long break (over 1 month with no offline matches). Not a contender. sOs has a weak Proleague record, got eliminated from GSL by Dear and didn't qualify from SSL. Even if you consider his IEM win, he hasn't done much to justify being top 2 Protoss. herO and Stats I agree would deserve a look, but herO is very up and down in his performances so far. If history is anything to go by, Dear's performance might as well be a positive fluctuation. We will see - sadly, there aren't that many places to see nowadays Anyway, I didn't want to devaluate Zest's run, just to note that it's not very clear how to rank players in Korea.
True enough. Although I think Maru/TY as top Terrans, Zest/Dear as top Protoss and Dark/soO as top Zerg are pretty valid opinions. And keep in mind Zest not only beat those players Olli evaluated so highly, he did it dropping a single map so far. This is no easy run by any means. For most players it would have ended in Code A.
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Having two KT players showing such dominance in the GSL handidly makes up for the mediocre performance in SPL.
Going to be great having a KT champion again. Hopefully it's TY!
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EPT
