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On April 16 2016 00:35 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 00:03 Ej_ wrote:On April 15 2016 23:48 Charoisaur wrote:On April 15 2016 21:02 Scarlett` wrote:On April 15 2016 20:53 Salteador Neo wrote:On April 15 2016 20:47 Scarlett` wrote:On April 15 2016 20:47 Malgo wrote:
to be honest, losira didnt deserved Ro8...dark shouldve advanced, but lots of Z in the group made it to gimmicky zvz right now is probably the coinflippyest its ever been I think I read some other zergs say this a few times in WoL and HotS too  plus if someone gets ultras first they just kinda win (u can amove into mass lurker spine with ultra viper and crush it) I see Avilo regularly crushing mass ultra armies with lurker viper + static defense. Maybe you should learn something from him. i dont think high master and progamer meta have much in common Yup that is correct. Avilo's cute little turtle builds might work fine at lower level play, won't work at higher level play.
I don't even think it's the level of play. Avilo's play works because he has incredible mechanics, probably better than the mechanics of many foreign professionals. If you give him the units that could win a certain combat he will certainly win it against his Masters/GM opponents.
Though I also don't think that the "whoever gets ultras first wins" is true. E.g. Snute vs hydra (or was it violet) from the WCS Circuit.
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On April 16 2016 00:56 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 00:35 blade55555 wrote:On April 16 2016 00:03 Ej_ wrote:On April 15 2016 23:48 Charoisaur wrote:On April 15 2016 21:02 Scarlett` wrote:On April 15 2016 20:53 Salteador Neo wrote:On April 15 2016 20:47 Scarlett` wrote:On April 15 2016 20:47 Malgo wrote:
to be honest, losira didnt deserved Ro8...dark shouldve advanced, but lots of Z in the group made it to gimmicky zvz right now is probably the coinflippyest its ever been I think I read some other zergs say this a few times in WoL and HotS too plus if someone gets ultras first they just kinda win (u can amove into mass lurker spine with ultra viper and crush it) I see Avilo regularly crushing mass ultra armies with lurker viper + static defense. Maybe you should learn something from him. i dont think high master and progamer meta have much in common Yup that is correct. Avilo's cute little turtle builds might work fine at lower level play, won't work at higher level play. I don't even think it's the level of play. Avilo's play works because he has incredible mechanics, probably better than the mechanics of many foreign professionals. If you give him the units that could win a certain combat he will certainly win it against his Masters/GM opponents. Though I also don't think that the "whoever gets ultras first wins" is true. E.g. Snute vs hydra (or was it violet) from the WCS Circuit.
Maybe. But we're talking about Scarlett here. Her mechanics have always been absolutely ON POINT. I think if she's not able to use Avilo's style against her opponents, it's not because Avilo has better mechanics.
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On April 16 2016 05:26 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 00:56 Big J wrote:On April 16 2016 00:35 blade55555 wrote:On April 16 2016 00:03 Ej_ wrote:On April 15 2016 23:48 Charoisaur wrote:On April 15 2016 21:02 Scarlett` wrote:On April 15 2016 20:53 Salteador Neo wrote:On April 15 2016 20:47 Scarlett` wrote:On April 15 2016 20:47 Malgo wrote:
to be honest, losira didnt deserved Ro8...dark shouldve advanced, but lots of Z in the group made it to gimmicky zvz right now is probably the coinflippyest its ever been I think I read some other zergs say this a few times in WoL and HotS too plus if someone gets ultras first they just kinda win (u can amove into mass lurker spine with ultra viper and crush it) I see Avilo regularly crushing mass ultra armies with lurker viper + static defense. Maybe you should learn something from him. i dont think high master and progamer meta have much in common Yup that is correct. Avilo's cute little turtle builds might work fine at lower level play, won't work at higher level play. I don't even think it's the level of play. Avilo's play works because he has incredible mechanics, probably better than the mechanics of many foreign professionals. If you give him the units that could win a certain combat he will certainly win it against his Masters/GM opponents. Though I also don't think that the "whoever gets ultras first wins" is true. E.g. Snute vs hydra (or was it violet) from the WCS Circuit. Maybe. But we're talking about Scarlett here. Her mechanics have always been absolutely ON POINT. I think if she's not able to use Avilo's style against her opponents, it's not because Avilo has better mechanics.
Oh absolutely. My point was that avilo's style works because he is mechanically better, not because his style is good. His style is quite garbage besides the composition he ends up with. He takes massive disadvantages in economy and upgrades, which is why he loses all games against professional players that have similar mechanics.
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On April 16 2016 05:42 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 05:26 TheDougler wrote:On April 16 2016 00:56 Big J wrote:On April 16 2016 00:35 blade55555 wrote:On April 16 2016 00:03 Ej_ wrote:On April 15 2016 23:48 Charoisaur wrote:On April 15 2016 21:02 Scarlett` wrote:On April 15 2016 20:53 Salteador Neo wrote:On April 15 2016 20:47 Scarlett` wrote:On April 15 2016 20:47 Malgo wrote:
to be honest, losira didnt deserved Ro8...dark shouldve advanced, but lots of Z in the group made it to gimmicky zvz right now is probably the coinflippyest its ever been I think I read some other zergs say this a few times in WoL and HotS too plus if someone gets ultras first they just kinda win (u can amove into mass lurker spine with ultra viper and crush it) I see Avilo regularly crushing mass ultra armies with lurker viper + static defense. Maybe you should learn something from him. i dont think high master and progamer meta have much in common Yup that is correct. Avilo's cute little turtle builds might work fine at lower level play, won't work at higher level play. I don't even think it's the level of play. Avilo's play works because he has incredible mechanics, probably better than the mechanics of many foreign professionals. If you give him the units that could win a certain combat he will certainly win it against his Masters/GM opponents. Though I also don't think that the "whoever gets ultras first wins" is true. E.g. Snute vs hydra (or was it violet) from the WCS Circuit. Maybe. But we're talking about Scarlett here. Her mechanics have always been absolutely ON POINT. I think if she's not able to use Avilo's style against her opponents, it's not because Avilo has better mechanics. Oh absolutely. My point was that avilo's style works because he is mechanically better, not because his style is good. His style is quite garbage besides the composition he ends up with. He takes massive disadvantages in economy and upgrades, which is why he loses all games against professional players that have similar mechanics.
Well this is fine and all, but back to the subject, Dark lost because he had 2 important proleague games and a SSL finals to prepare.
At one point, even with the biggest talent, going in 3 top competitions at once is just impossible; him being caught by Losira was not such and upset in that regard.
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Still shocked about taejas lost  : ( Can't even read feedback
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based on how much of a monster Zest is recently, you actually thought that Taeja stood a chance??!!!
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On April 16 2016 08:12 MiniFotToss wrote:based on how much of a monster Zest is recently, you actually thought that Taeja stood a chance??!!!
Ya in all honestly Taeja taking a single game would have been a pretty huge upset. I was surprised the TL writers predicted him to do so.
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On April 15 2016 18:57 fealx wrote:
TvP looks very weird atm. Even Maru is only winning because Tosses are throwing.
Was always like that after some time of a new addon. At the beginning Terrans win a lot with similar to the previous games mechanics and some new abilities (like boost in hots) and after that they lose a lot (like 2nd half of 2013, all 2014 where Ts were basically wiped out of GSL by the toss). Since this will be the last addon we well see Terrans adapting over and over again to "new" styles of toss and Zerg. I am looking forward to checking the meta in a couple of years. Although from a terran perspective it will always fell frustrating to watch, simply because it is more mechanic work to achieve a victory compared to other races (which have work on another level (macro, decision making, ability using). But with all the splitting, microing, macroing, walling off/sim city, planning ahead (instead of playing reactive), terran always felt harder to play when watching
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On April 16 2016 10:32 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 18:57 fealx wrote:
TvP looks very weird atm. Even Maru is only winning because Tosses are throwing. Was always like that after some time of a new addon. At the beginning Terrans win a lot with similar to the previous games mechanics and some new abilities (like boost in hots) and after that they lose a lot (like 2nd half of 2013, all 2014 where Ts were basically wiped out of GSL by the toss). Since this will be the last addon we well see Terrans adapting over and over again to "new" styles of toss and Zerg. I am looking forward to checking the meta in a couple of years. Although from a terran perspective it will always fell frustrating to watch, simply because it is more mechanic work to achieve a victory compared to other races (which have work on another level (macro, decision making, ability using). But with all the splitting, microing, macroing, walling off/sim city, planning ahead (instead of playing reactive), terran always felt harder to play when watching
Perhaps you don't remember 2014 like Protoss remembers it, but the tournaments won and the second places were actually very close between T and P. In fact, throughout 2014/2015, the WCS circuits (GSL, SSL, WCS NA, EU) had very close winrates.
Early 2014, Protoss had a higher winrate versus Terran and then in the latter half, Terran had a 60/40 winrate versus Protoss.As for adapting....I'm not so sure, because it's seemed like all races have had to do their share of adapting. Terran never really adapted to the Blink-allins because the maps were chaned and WMs were buffed, whereas Protoss had to adapt for the widowmine buff without receiving any buffs and maps that were there for a long time.
I mean, it's really only Dear, herO, and Zest who are doing the best in the TvP matchup, so it's not like ALL Protoss are destroying ALL Terran.
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Zest looking absolutely amazing, and Losira looks decent.
All is normal, and I can live with it. KT vs KT finals comin' up!
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I don't even understand how Zest was winning; I don't think he even used Storm or Disruptors. He really just sees the game better than every other Toss and it's not even close. This is the most dominant Toss I've seen ever, maybe MC early on with the warp gate all in timings was in the same universe, but even then.. the level of refinement is a lot higher and it's not just brute force anymore.
Love/hate Zest because he's probably holding back Toss buffs, but at the same time, he seems to be the platonic ideal of Protoss play.
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On April 16 2016 12:48 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 10:32 Rollora wrote:On April 15 2016 18:57 fealx wrote:
TvP looks very weird atm. Even Maru is only winning because Tosses are throwing. Was always like that after some time of a new addon. At the beginning Terrans win a lot with similar to the previous games mechanics and some new abilities (like boost in hots) and after that they lose a lot (like 2nd half of 2013, all 2014 where Ts were basically wiped out of GSL by the toss). Since this will be the last addon we well see Terrans adapting over and over again to "new" styles of toss and Zerg. I am looking forward to checking the meta in a couple of years. Although from a terran perspective it will always fell frustrating to watch, simply because it is more mechanic work to achieve a victory compared to other races (which have work on another level (macro, decision making, ability using). But with all the splitting, microing, macroing, walling off/sim city, planning ahead (instead of playing reactive), terran always felt harder to play when watching Perhaps you don't remember 2014 like Protoss remembers it, but the tournaments won and the second places were actually very close between T and P. In fact, throughout 2014/2015, the WCS circuits (GSL, SSL, WCS NA, EU) had very close winrates. Early 2014, Protoss had a higher winrate versus Terran and then in the latter half, Terran had a 60/40 winrate versus Protoss.As for adapting....I'm not so sure, because it's seemed like all races have had to do their share of adapting. Terran never really adapted to the Blink-allins because the maps were chaned and WMs were buffed, whereas Protoss had to adapt for the widowmine buff without receiving any buffs and maps that were there for a long time. I mean, it's really only Dear, herO, and Zest who are doing the best in the TvP matchup, so it's not like ALL Protoss are destroying ALL Terran.
You do realize the first 6 months of 2014 were pure Protoss domination though right? It wasnt even funny anymore. Until June there were like two Terrans doing ok. And only one won tournaments (Taeja in foreign events). The first season was all about trying to hold Blink all ins and guess what. A well executed one on those stupid maps was near impossible to hold. It wasnt because Terran had a hard time adapting. It was because the Blink all in was too strong. In fact so strong that they nerfed and changed multiple things around that. One of those changes being the maps and the msc vision. Protoss had a dry phase through summer but it wasnt as bad as the time Terrans had. Only starting with September TvP/PvT started to normalize
As for the GSL games. As much as it hurts me to see Taeja lose it was expected. Zest is just too much of a monster atm and I honestly don´t see anyone stopping him from winning this GSL tbh. And I dont even like this guy..
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On April 16 2016 10:32 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 18:57 fealx wrote:
TvP looks very weird atm. Even Maru is only winning because Tosses are throwing. Although from a terran perspective it will always fell frustrating to watch, simply because it is more mechanic work to achieve a victory compared to other races (which have work on another level (macro, decision making, ability using). But with all the splitting, microing, macroing, walling off/sim city, planning ahead (instead of playing reactive), terran always felt harder to play when watching
This is not true in LotV. Depending on the composition, Protoss can be more mechanically demanding than Terran bio play. Look for example Puck's and Neeb's signature PvT style (Blink Stalkers and Disruptors). This unit composition is pure hell to control. But if you have the godly skill to blink out those wounded Stalkers while landing good Disruptor Novas this unit comp looks quite imba indeed. However not even Neeb can land Novas consistently, even though he is touted by many to be the best NA player even including Koreans who live in NA at the moment.
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Pretty sure its impossible for zest to lose to any terran. Can't remember the last time.
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On April 16 2016 20:16 Homunculus159 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 12:48 FrkFrJss wrote:On April 16 2016 10:32 Rollora wrote:On April 15 2016 18:57 fealx wrote:
TvP looks very weird atm. Even Maru is only winning because Tosses are throwing. Was always like that after some time of a new addon. At the beginning Terrans win a lot with similar to the previous games mechanics and some new abilities (like boost in hots) and after that they lose a lot (like 2nd half of 2013, all 2014 where Ts were basically wiped out of GSL by the toss). Since this will be the last addon we well see Terrans adapting over and over again to "new" styles of toss and Zerg. I am looking forward to checking the meta in a couple of years. Although from a terran perspective it will always fell frustrating to watch, simply because it is more mechanic work to achieve a victory compared to other races (which have work on another level (macro, decision making, ability using). But with all the splitting, microing, macroing, walling off/sim city, planning ahead (instead of playing reactive), terran always felt harder to play when watching Perhaps you don't remember 2014 like Protoss remembers it, but the tournaments won and the second places were actually very close between T and P. In fact, throughout 2014/2015, the WCS circuits (GSL, SSL, WCS NA, EU) had very close winrates. Early 2014, Protoss had a higher winrate versus Terran and then in the latter half, Terran had a 60/40 winrate versus Protoss.As for adapting....I'm not so sure, because it's seemed like all races have had to do their share of adapting. Terran never really adapted to the Blink-allins because the maps were chaned and WMs were buffed, whereas Protoss had to adapt for the widowmine buff without receiving any buffs and maps that were there for a long time. I mean, it's really only Dear, herO, and Zest who are doing the best in the TvP matchup, so it's not like ALL Protoss are destroying ALL Terran. You do realize the first 6 months of 2014 were pure Protoss domination though right? It wasnt even funny anymore. Until June there were like two Terrans doing ok. And only one won tournaments (Taeja in foreign events). The first season was all about trying to hold Blink all ins and guess what. A well executed one on those stupid maps was near impossible to hold. It wasnt because Terran had a hard time adapting. It was because the Blink all in was too strong. In fact so strong that they nerfed and changed multiple things around that. One of those changes being the maps and the msc vision. Protoss had a dry phase through summer but it wasnt as bad as the time Terrans had. Only starting with September TvP/PvT started to normalize As for the GSL games. As much as it hurts me to see Taeja lose it was expected. Zest is just too much of a monster atm and I honestly don´t see anyone stopping him from winning this GSL tbh. And I dont even like this guy..
That is true. Protoss dominated, and I disagree that the blink all in was unholdable because Polt demonstrated how it was holdable though it was also imbalanced.
But, think logically, if the first half was domination and the tournament wins were around equal, what does that mean? It means that Terran dominated Protoss hard enough to get a similar amount of tournament wins.
If the nerfs/buffs were supposed to equalize the balance, then Protoss should have had a similar number of tournament wins to Terran or at least more than they did.
Protoss had 15 wins and Terran had 12, and they had relatively equal amounts of mirror matchups in the finals. All I'm saying is that 2014 can not be said to be Protoss dominated. They did well in one half, but extremely poorly on the other.
And for GSL, it was definitely painful seeing him get dominated so hard. And especially with this wonky (and some might say weak) Ro8, I think TY has the best chance of beating Zest, maybe even a good chance because team kills are never certain.
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On April 17 2016 04:04 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 20:16 Homunculus159 wrote:On April 16 2016 12:48 FrkFrJss wrote:On April 16 2016 10:32 Rollora wrote:On April 15 2016 18:57 fealx wrote:
TvP looks very weird atm. Even Maru is only winning because Tosses are throwing. Was always like that after some time of a new addon. At the beginning Terrans win a lot with similar to the previous games mechanics and some new abilities (like boost in hots) and after that they lose a lot (like 2nd half of 2013, all 2014 where Ts were basically wiped out of GSL by the toss). Since this will be the last addon we well see Terrans adapting over and over again to "new" styles of toss and Zerg. I am looking forward to checking the meta in a couple of years. Although from a terran perspective it will always fell frustrating to watch, simply because it is more mechanic work to achieve a victory compared to other races (which have work on another level (macro, decision making, ability using). But with all the splitting, microing, macroing, walling off/sim city, planning ahead (instead of playing reactive), terran always felt harder to play when watching Perhaps you don't remember 2014 like Protoss remembers it, but the tournaments won and the second places were actually very close between T and P. In fact, throughout 2014/2015, the WCS circuits (GSL, SSL, WCS NA, EU) had very close winrates. Early 2014, Protoss had a higher winrate versus Terran and then in the latter half, Terran had a 60/40 winrate versus Protoss.As for adapting....I'm not so sure, because it's seemed like all races have had to do their share of adapting. Terran never really adapted to the Blink-allins because the maps were chaned and WMs were buffed, whereas Protoss had to adapt for the widowmine buff without receiving any buffs and maps that were there for a long time. I mean, it's really only Dear, herO, and Zest who are doing the best in the TvP matchup, so it's not like ALL Protoss are destroying ALL Terran. You do realize the first 6 months of 2014 were pure Protoss domination though right? It wasnt even funny anymore. Until June there were like two Terrans doing ok. And only one won tournaments (Taeja in foreign events). The first season was all about trying to hold Blink all ins and guess what. A well executed one on those stupid maps was near impossible to hold. It wasnt because Terran had a hard time adapting. It was because the Blink all in was too strong. In fact so strong that they nerfed and changed multiple things around that. One of those changes being the maps and the msc vision. Protoss had a dry phase through summer but it wasnt as bad as the time Terrans had. Only starting with September TvP/PvT started to normalize As for the GSL games. As much as it hurts me to see Taeja lose it was expected. Zest is just too much of a monster atm and I honestly don´t see anyone stopping him from winning this GSL tbh. And I dont even like this guy.. That is true. Protoss dominated, and I disagree that the blink all in was unholdable because Polt demonstrated how it was holdable though it was also imbalanced. But, think logically, if the first half was domination and the tournament wins were around equal, what does that mean? It means that Terran dominated Protoss hard enough to get a similar amount of tournament wins. If the nerfs/buffs were supposed to equalize the balance, then Protoss should have had a similar number of tournament wins to Terran or at least more than they did. Protoss had 15 wins and Terran had 12, and they had relatively equal amounts of mirror matchups in the finals. All I'm saying is that 2014 can not be said to be Protoss dominated. They did well in one half, but extremely poorly on the other. And for GSL, it was definitely painful seeing him get dominated so hard. And especially with this wonky (and some might say weak) Ro8, I think TY has the best chance of beating Zest, maybe even a good chance because team kills are never certain.
I am not saying that all of 2014 was Protoss domination but until July we had 11 Protoss Tournament wins and only Zest had won 2. The other 9 were all different players winning premier Tournaments. Compared to that we had Life and Hyun win each one Premier Tournament and for Terran Taeja winning 2. Starting July after the buffs Terrans started winning nearly everything until September where from there on things even´d out again with 3 Zergs winning 3 Protoss and 2 Terrans. All in all Zergs had it the worst and only started gaining steam after realizing how to completely abuse the SH´s. Terrans got a boost after the Thor and Widow Mine buffs till the other races adapted. 2015 started okayish to bad for Terran and the same for Protoss. Protoss pretty much won more than 50% of the Tournaments.
So Protoss actually had a really good time in HotS.^^
So far in Legacy I don´t think we can say one race is stronger than the others. People are still discovering new strategies and Zest is showing how to beat Terrans without even needing high tech splash. Season 2 of GSL and SSL will be interesting to watch.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On April 17 2016 03:24 AxionSteel wrote:Pretty sure its impossible for zest to lose to any terran. Can't remember the last time.
A map against Journey. A match against aLive back in December. And that's with PvT being the matchup he played the most.
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On April 15 2016 20:48 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 20:47 Phredxor wrote:On April 15 2016 20:45 Musicus wrote:
Wow, Dear just outright says that Protoss is stronger after winning. Wtf, how can he be so honest. Respect.
Still think it's just a map thing, until the late game. Sojung probably a Zerg player lying to get Protoss nerfed She's the biggest TY fan I think. I'm pretty sure she plays Terran.
I thought the biggest reason that she supports TY is cuz TY is her brother
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On April 17 2016 03:24 AxionSteel wrote:Pretty sure its impossible for zest to lose to any terran. Can't remember the last time.
We must revive Tangtang!
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Anyone else think that the Artosis and wolf were particularly on point today? TBH Wolf has been getting on my nerves recently with his overly critical analysis and I guess just the high ratio of opinions/observations he has, but today his analysis was good and completed artosis' very nicely.
Artosis himself was on fire analytically, rewound the vods a few times to catch what he was saying. good stuff especially as a way to understand why zest won so one-sidedly
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EPT
