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On February 17 2015 06:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 05:59 teslar wrote:
I'm suprised some few people still think the SH is too strong or needs to be removed entirely.
Same shit about tempest. I believe blizzard will ninja buff carrier/overhaul it again and get rid of the + massive damage for tempest vs air. Maybe add it too vs ground massive ? like a long range slow banshee high hit points.
For example(not a suggestion just example) if the carrier gained + 2 damage per interceptor air upgrade you'd see them in 30-60% of games. Right now you occasionally see a tempest in mid/lategame or in the 1 base proxy tempest vs terran. Other than that u never see either the tempest or carrier.
As for SH, the unit already got nerfed to the ground with the gas cost being double. Anyone who thinks they will function like how they used to needs to go back to gaming school and learn what "30sec cooldowns" actually means.
Also did they reduce the cost of the SH minerals cost? to 100/200 now as in flipped it ? Or is it 200/200 lol.
I think the SH might be a very fun addition to the game with these changes, i just hope people don't cry too over nerf the SH and we'll be stuck with corruptor brood queen viper infestor again.
If you don't like BL/Infestor than atleast be respectful of the SH in none hypocritical ways. The past will not happen over again if you don't over judge units that are allowed to have a different synergy, ergo SH/queen/viper those kind of units.
Honestly the bias is so big in sc2 most of the time between players/streamers/casters/casuals.
Especially casuals lol, or those who consider them to be at the forefront of balance when infact they stopped playing and became a casual recently/while back.
Not implying we can't discuss balance, quite the opposite of that. But don't let it get to your head and continue thinking: "uuuugh remove sh ! remove this remove that" Articulate a mathematical reason as to why it should happen or remain silent.
Just my 2 cents on the matter.
Mathematical reason? Here it goes: We saw Snute play with Swarm Hosts in 5games, 2 vs Goody and 3vs Harstem. In his 40min SH games he lost like 10Swarm Hosts while taking down like 30-40 Tanks/Thors with them. This doesn't mean the unit is imbalanced, but I think it is bad for the entertainment. Units that are massively disproportional in taking down other units over a long course of time make for boring gameplay. Because the best way to use them is to never ever risk those units and - since they are hard to catch or engage into - the best way to play against them is to avoid them. It makes for a metagame in which you don't want to engage directly as the player playing against Swarm Hosts and you can't engage directly as the player playing with them because they aren't good for single engagments. TLDR: units that enforce dodging engagments are bad and units with overly long range do that. The free unit dynamic makes this even worse.
I agree. I didn't see game 3 vs Harstem (which Ramiz seems to have enjoyed) but I saw the other games and I was really bored and annoyed.
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On February 17 2015 06:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 05:59 teslar wrote:
I'm suprised some few people still think the SH is too strong or needs to be removed entirely.
Same shit about tempest. I believe blizzard will ninja buff carrier/overhaul it again and get rid of the + massive damage for tempest vs air. Maybe add it too vs ground massive ? like a long range slow banshee high hit points.
For example(not a suggestion just example) if the carrier gained + 2 damage per interceptor air upgrade you'd see them in 30-60% of games. Right now you occasionally see a tempest in mid/lategame or in the 1 base proxy tempest vs terran. Other than that u never see either the tempest or carrier.
As for SH, the unit already got nerfed to the ground with the gas cost being double. Anyone who thinks they will function like how they used to needs to go back to gaming school and learn what "30sec cooldowns" actually means.
Also did they reduce the cost of the SH minerals cost? to 100/200 now as in flipped it ? Or is it 200/200 lol.
I think the SH might be a very fun addition to the game with these changes, i just hope people don't cry too over nerf the SH and we'll be stuck with corruptor brood queen viper infestor again.
If you don't like BL/Infestor than atleast be respectful of the SH in none hypocritical ways. The past will not happen over again if you don't over judge units that are allowed to have a different synergy, ergo SH/queen/viper those kind of units.
Honestly the bias is so big in sc2 most of the time between players/streamers/casters/casuals.
Especially casuals lol, or those who consider them to be at the forefront of balance when infact they stopped playing and became a casual recently/while back.
Not implying we can't discuss balance, quite the opposite of that. But don't let it get to your head and continue thinking: "uuuugh remove sh ! remove this remove that" Articulate a mathematical reason as to why it should happen or remain silent.
Just my 2 cents on the matter.
Mathematical reason? Here it goes: We saw Snute play with Swarm Hosts in 5games, 2 vs Goody and 3vs Harstem. In his 40min SH games he lost like 10Swarm Hosts while taking down like 30-40 Tanks/Thors with them. This doesn't mean the unit is imbalanced, but I think it is bad for the entertainment. Units that are massively disproportional in taking down other units over a long course of time make for boring gameplay. Because the best way to use them is to never ever risk those units and - since they are hard to catch or engage into - the best way to play against them is to avoid them. It makes for a metagame in which you don't want to engage directly as the player playing against Swarm Hosts and you can't engage directly as the player playing with them because they aren't good for single engagments. TLDR: units that enforce dodging engagments are bad and units with overly long range do that. The free unit dynamic makes this even worse.
I some what agree with pk wire and more so with Big J. Although wouldn't you say it's hypocritical to keep the raven then ? It's not creating issues now, actually to an extend it already can. If you were to get ridd of sh or other units that dodge things. You'd alter the game to the point where direct engagements and drops/burrow is the only way of fighting or only fight oncreep/ with queens to transfuse or other basic synergy units. Then like i said before if you get rid of those new units... you'd just bl infestor again. Unless you buff like zerg drop to be atleast 40% as good as terran drop. I see no point in preferring to remove sh/nerfing raven/tempest into the ground so they become the next carrier/BC like WOL era.
Removing them or nerfing will just promote allins and proxies. Why bother with lategame when you can just rally push every game 50% of the duration of the game or all game long. It's fun too see that.. but it's just anti climatic. I personally think and believe people don't know much about other issues that are just as likely or more likely to occur when we change the game. I absolutely love changes to the game but disagree that the SH looks like a corpse with makeup and bandaids on it. Blame the raven and carrier as well then. Even medivacs promote cheap harass... without zerg cheap harass/turtle style, zerg has no way of changing the tempo of the game. Infestors got nerfed, lings are still shit unless critical mass + other units/timing of micro and creep/surround etc. Like wtf is a zerg supposed to do ? just go queen brood/spine spore infestor viper ? Oh wait that doesn't sound reminiscing of WOL at all lol.
My point is zergs like to turtle, not because they want to be a dick but rather because they should if they want to win.
Exactly the fault of current balance totally agree. Just that the method of changing the game needs to be crisp.. else you just have zergs corruptor/bl/viper/queen with Static d /creep allover again. I'm getting pretty bored of the whole static D contain in general. Most people believe you need SH to even make that work but that isn't true at all. We could easily go back to even more passive play if you remove the SH.
*edit the medivac example is only true in regards if it is micro'd to it's best potential*
So the passivity of the SH is annoying/not fun at all and bad balance..100% agree.
That's why i think the new SH is great and people who still think SH = bad overall to the game are just wearing their shady shades.
OR if you do feel entitled to keep thinking that, then for the love of sc 2 balance just map out other possibilities. Pointing out the mistakes with units does not equal equating possible better outcomes. As no change is made other than the removal of said unit. Just bothersome to see people think they are fixing the game by spouting x y z is bad because other races hate playing vs it + it tends to be long games. Ok decent points but you have no point other than the obvious information already being repeated.
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This is fucking fantastic.
Would be awesome if this could become a regular thing.
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On February 17 2015 06:28 Ben1500 wrote:
This is fucking fantastic.
Would be awesome if this could become a regular thing.
The balance patch still needs some work, but seeing it played by pros and casted on such a large scale is indeed AWESOME. Thanks to the players and to Rotti and Nate.
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God, it's so refreshing to hear a caster actually apply some thought and reasoning into how a player has been performing recently.
Respect, Rottie. Respect.
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On February 17 2015 06:59 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 06:28 Ben1500 wrote:
This is fucking fantastic.
Would be awesome if this could become a regular thing. The balance patch still needs some work, but seeing it played by pros and casted on such a large scale is indeed AWESOME. Thanks to the players and to Rotti and Nate.
Not specifically the balance map just showmatchs casted by these guys the stories are amazing.
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For anyone who missed it:
Someone paid Naniwa to coach him, sent his money and a replay in which he 3gated and lost to a 4gater, asking "What could I have done better?" Naniwa sent the money back with the response: "I can do nothing for you."
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Amazing stream so far. Rotti, Nate, and ToD should get Taco Bell to sponsor the Rancho Cup, a Homestory style event.
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glad to see they're stiill doing showmatches for the hell of it, this is a really good game to come back to. Harstem's defensive PvT so sick.
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i can't believe they don't show the supply count in the big fights. it's the most important information to see about the fucking game.
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On February 17 2015 09:38 Poopfeast 024 wrote:
i can't believe they don't show the supply count in the big fights. it's the most important information to see about the fucking game.
Rotti was struggling with the UI the whole game.
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Germany3128 Posts
are there more games coming up ?
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Germany3128 Posts
On February 17 2015 09:47 ssg wrote:
Who they talking about?
If you mean the idiot they are talking about ? Firecake
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NaNiwa : "Yeah Harstem, why don't we practice together ?"
Harstem : "Because you have me blocked on twitter !"
Hahaha this stuff is hilarious. Too bad I have to go to sleep.
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Can we get an update: how did each winner decide to split the money?
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On February 17 2015 10:15 minigwar wrote:
Can we get an update: how did each winner decide to split the money?
i think it's 75 25 for everyone, harstem took 100 against beastyqt i think
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Do those guys have some history with Bly or are they really just bashing him for playing cheesy?
Also sad that they aren't playing the balance map anymore.
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EPT
