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On November 28 2014 07:40 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 07:37 Xoronius wrote:On November 28 2014 07:32 henkalv wrote:On November 28 2014 07:25 Xoronius wrote:On November 28 2014 07:21 henkalv wrote:
While I do not think the current solution is bad I just wish that they would have done a Bo1 tiebreaker round for a situation like this. Less salt and more entertainment, everybody wins The problem is, that that isn't fair either. Giving someone, who went 6-4 and someone, who went 5-6 the same conditions to advance is unfair for the 6-4-guy. In each format there will be someone salty at the end, one can't please everyone. A problem with this is that one of them has played fewer games then the other though. If you are gonna decide this by map score then having some players play fewer maps then the others just because the maps they won came in succsesion makes no sense I don't see the problem here to be honest. You can just view the series as +2/+1 instead of 2:0/2:1 and you have a clear view at who performed better. Your point would come in if the players would play a lot more maps, so that a +2-mapscore could mean a lower winrate than a +3 for example, but I don't think, that that comes into play here. if you're that concerned about the order of map wins, maybe you should look at the win % instead, Snute and Impact were the only sub-50% map win players in the group, and they were the only 2 to be eliminated, makes sense to me
I'm not, maybe my formulation was bad, I was trying to say soomething similar. But yes, I agree with you.
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On November 28 2014 07:41 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 07:40 Die4Ever wrote:On November 28 2014 07:37 Xoronius wrote:On November 28 2014 07:32 henkalv wrote:On November 28 2014 07:25 Xoronius wrote:On November 28 2014 07:21 henkalv wrote:
While I do not think the current solution is bad I just wish that they would have done a Bo1 tiebreaker round for a situation like this. Less salt and more entertainment, everybody wins The problem is, that that isn't fair either. Giving someone, who went 6-4 and someone, who went 5-6 the same conditions to advance is unfair for the 6-4-guy. In each format there will be someone salty at the end, one can't please everyone. A problem with this is that one of them has played fewer games then the other though. If you are gonna decide this by map score then having some players play fewer maps then the others just because the maps they won came in succsesion makes no sense I don't see the problem here to be honest. You can just view the series as +2/+1 instead of 2:0/2:1 and you have a clear view at who performed better. Your point would come in if the players would play a lot more maps, so that a +2-mapscore could mean a lower winrate than a +3 for example, but I don't think, that that comes into play here. if you're that concerned about the order of map wins, maybe you should look at the win % instead, Snute and Impact were the only sub-50% map win players in the group, and they were the only 2 to be eliminated, makes sense to me I'm not, maybe my formulation was bad, I was trying to say soomething similar. But yes, I agree with you.
I was using the general form of you, not speaking to you specifically, english is dumb lol, should've used y'all instead maybe?
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On November 28 2014 07:37 KingofdaHipHop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 07:32 Xoronius wrote:On November 28 2014 07:25 Supersamu wrote:
After seeing all these posts from Totalbiscuit, I am starting to wonder about his professionalism.
There are different Tournament systems for different things. The question is what Probability do you want to have that the best Player wins 1st place? What Probability do you want to have that the 2nd best Player wins 2nd Place? What Probability do you want to have that the 2nd best Player wins 1st Place? All these questions need to be answered before deciding on a Tournament Format.
I am not sure what Dreamhack's goals are with the Tournament, but they can use whatever system they like and you agreed to that by paying for Impact's flight. There is no need to whine now when it didn't go as planned. We shouldn't completely silence important figures of the community, just because of sponsors looking at them. TB has every right to complain (although he is wrong here), just as every other TL user has. At the end of the day, a forum is there to have a discussion as well. You just discredited your argument by saying something like that so hard.
You can't discredit an argument by anything. The argument always stands for itself.
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On November 28 2014 07:42 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 07:41 Xoronius wrote:On November 28 2014 07:40 Die4Ever wrote:On November 28 2014 07:37 Xoronius wrote:On November 28 2014 07:32 henkalv wrote:On November 28 2014 07:25 Xoronius wrote:On November 28 2014 07:21 henkalv wrote:
While I do not think the current solution is bad I just wish that they would have done a Bo1 tiebreaker round for a situation like this. Less salt and more entertainment, everybody wins The problem is, that that isn't fair either. Giving someone, who went 6-4 and someone, who went 5-6 the same conditions to advance is unfair for the 6-4-guy. In each format there will be someone salty at the end, one can't please everyone. A problem with this is that one of them has played fewer games then the other though. If you are gonna decide this by map score then having some players play fewer maps then the others just because the maps they won came in succsesion makes no sense I don't see the problem here to be honest. You can just view the series as +2/+1 instead of 2:0/2:1 and you have a clear view at who performed better. Your point would come in if the players would play a lot more maps, so that a +2-mapscore could mean a lower winrate than a +3 for example, but I don't think, that that comes into play here. if you're that concerned about the order of map wins, maybe you should look at the win % instead, Snute and Impact were the only sub-50% map win players in the group, and they were the only 2 to be eliminated, makes sense to me I'm not, maybe my formulation was bad, I was trying to say soomething similar. But yes, I agree with you. I was using the general form of you, not speaking to you specifically, english is dumb lol, should've used y'all instead maybe?
Yeah, right, there should be a difference between singular and plural in 2nd person. I demand a change!
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On November 28 2014 07:18 sigm wrote:
You know, TB, bottom line is that Impact just didn't cut it. I don't know whether it was a lack of preparation, or a lack of skill, but the simple fact is that he wasn't good enough to get out of the group. You can blame the format, the tournament, the weather, whatever you want, but that doesn't change that simple fact. I understand that you're angry and emotional about this, having invested money and received nothing for it, but you're not stupid, and you knew the risks beforehand. You knew what the format would be, as this isn't the first time it was used. You knew the kind of players that Impact would be going up against. At least, I assume you knew all that, since it was all common knowledge. You took the risk because you thought that Impact would be good enough to get through, despite the opposition and the format. If you really had thought that the format would make it impossible or highly unlikely for Impact to get through, I bet you wouldn't have put your money behind him, as like I said, I don't think you're stupid. The way you feel about this whole thing now is understandable, but you don't have to be an asshole about it and tell people to fuck off because you don't agree with them. That just makes you seem like a complete jackass.
You have no investment in any of these results, you can easily say whatever you like without any consequence.
Impact played like a moron against Snute in a ZvZ. Unfortunate, since Snute was arguably the worst player in the group. Had he not played like a moron certainly things would have turned out differently, but frankly since everyone in the group went 2-2 I find it laughable that you think any player was "good enough" more than any other, since they all scored the damn same.
You don't care. You're arguing for the sake of it. You have no investment. I have a reason to care. It's that simple. As far as I'm concerned Dreamhacks format sucks. The evidence presented is the fact that nobody else uses it, round-robin is largely abandoned in any form for major events and the GSL dual-tournament format is standard across the board for most events including WCS. That on its own is strong enough evidence to suggest that maybe Dreamhacks format is junk and that's before this ridiculous 5 people got the same series score result.
If you want to get in even deeper when it comes to how stupid this format is, we can look at game one of Jjakji vs Impact, a game that was plagued by lag because the community casters literally invited a troll account into the game who caused a bunch of lag (and Winter was actually having drops in his connection during the game too). Impact lost that map. Under ideal circumstances and considering how hard he stomped Jjakji in the following 2 maps, it would not be unreasonable to say that Impact would have won that series 2-0 instead of 2-1, which would have put him at a 5-5 map score and jjakji at a 5-6, changing the entire look of the group.
See how stupid that is?
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On November 28 2014 07:18 sigm wrote:
You know, TB, bottom line is that Impact just didn't cut it. I don't know whether it was a lack of preparation, or a lack of skill, but the simple fact is that he wasn't good enough to get out of the group. You can blame the format, the tournament, the weather, whatever you want, but that doesn't change that simple fact. I understand that you're angry and emotional about this, having invested money and received nothing for it, but you're not stupid, and you knew the risks beforehand. You knew what the format would be, as this isn't the first time it was used. You knew the kind of players that Impact would be going up against. At least, I assume you knew all that, since it was all common knowledge. You took the risk because you thought that Impact would be good enough to get through, despite the opposition and the format. If you really had thought that the format would make it impossible or highly unlikely for Impact to get through, I bet you wouldn't have put your money behind him, as like I said, I don't think you're stupid. The way you feel about this whole thing now is understandable, but you don't have to be an asshole about it and tell people to fuck off because you don't agree with them. That just makes you seem like a complete jackass.
If Snute had 2-0 every player, Impact would have finished 2nd in the group. With this format your position is decided by matches you don't take part in, which is dumb. It is pretty understandable that TB is salty when he has paid for player to go to a tournament, his player, played really well apart for the ZvZ but he may as well as not been there as none of games where shown on the main stream.
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What good games were played (can be from any stream)
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On November 28 2014 07:44 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 07:18 sigm wrote:
You know, TB, bottom line is that Impact just didn't cut it. I don't know whether it was a lack of preparation, or a lack of skill, but the simple fact is that he wasn't good enough to get out of the group. You can blame the format, the tournament, the weather, whatever you want, but that doesn't change that simple fact. I understand that you're angry and emotional about this, having invested money and received nothing for it, but you're not stupid, and you knew the risks beforehand. You knew what the format would be, as this isn't the first time it was used. You knew the kind of players that Impact would be going up against. At least, I assume you knew all that, since it was all common knowledge. You took the risk because you thought that Impact would be good enough to get through, despite the opposition and the format. If you really had thought that the format would make it impossible or highly unlikely for Impact to get through, I bet you wouldn't have put your money behind him, as like I said, I don't think you're stupid. The way you feel about this whole thing now is understandable, but you don't have to be an asshole about it and tell people to fuck off because you don't agree with them. That just makes you seem like a complete jackass. I really don't give a shit about how you feel. You have no investment in any of these results, you can easily say whatever you like without any consequence. Impact played like a moron against Snute in a ZvZ. Unfortunate, since Snute was arguably the worst player in the group. Had he not played like a moron certainly things would have turned out differently, but frankly since everyone in the group went 2-2 I find it laughable that you think any player was "good enough" more than any other, since they all scored the damn same. You don't care. You're arguing for the sake of it. You have no investment. I have a reason to care. It's that simple. As far as I'm concerned Dreamhacks format sucks. The evidence presented is the fact that nobody else uses it, round-robin is largely abandoned in any form for major events and the GSL dual-tournament format is standard across the board for most events including WCS. That on its own is strong enough evidence to suggest that maybe Dreamhacks format is junk and that's before this ridiculous 5 people got the same series score result.
Your "evidence" can be turned around so easily though by saying, that noone outside of esports uses GSL system. Brackets have mostly died out in chess, becuase they are simply bad at determining all positions by skill. Just out of curiosity, what would you think about having a tournament trying out swiss system for a smaller event?
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On November 28 2014 07:49 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 07:44 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 07:18 sigm wrote:
You know, TB, bottom line is that Impact just didn't cut it. I don't know whether it was a lack of preparation, or a lack of skill, but the simple fact is that he wasn't good enough to get out of the group. You can blame the format, the tournament, the weather, whatever you want, but that doesn't change that simple fact. I understand that you're angry and emotional about this, having invested money and received nothing for it, but you're not stupid, and you knew the risks beforehand. You knew what the format would be, as this isn't the first time it was used. You knew the kind of players that Impact would be going up against. At least, I assume you knew all that, since it was all common knowledge. You took the risk because you thought that Impact would be good enough to get through, despite the opposition and the format. If you really had thought that the format would make it impossible or highly unlikely for Impact to get through, I bet you wouldn't have put your money behind him, as like I said, I don't think you're stupid. The way you feel about this whole thing now is understandable, but you don't have to be an asshole about it and tell people to fuck off because you don't agree with them. That just makes you seem like a complete jackass. I really don't give a shit about how you feel. You have no investment in any of these results, you can easily say whatever you like without any consequence. Impact played like a moron against Snute in a ZvZ. Unfortunate, since Snute was arguably the worst player in the group. Had he not played like a moron certainly things would have turned out differently, but frankly since everyone in the group went 2-2 I find it laughable that you think any player was "good enough" more than any other, since they all scored the damn same. You don't care. You're arguing for the sake of it. You have no investment. I have a reason to care. It's that simple. As far as I'm concerned Dreamhacks format sucks. The evidence presented is the fact that nobody else uses it, round-robin is largely abandoned in any form for major events and the GSL dual-tournament format is standard across the board for most events including WCS. That on its own is strong enough evidence to suggest that maybe Dreamhacks format is junk and that's before this ridiculous 5 people got the same series score result. Your evidence can be turned around so easily though by saying, that noone outside of esports uses GSL system. Brackets have mostly died out in chess, becuase they are simply bad at determining all positions by skill. Just out of curiosity, what would you think about having a tournament trying out swiss system for a smaller event?
The format of other sports is irrelevant to Starcraft 2.
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On November 28 2014 07:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 07:49 Xoronius wrote:On November 28 2014 07:44 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 07:18 sigm wrote:
You know, TB, bottom line is that Impact just didn't cut it. I don't know whether it was a lack of preparation, or a lack of skill, but the simple fact is that he wasn't good enough to get out of the group. You can blame the format, the tournament, the weather, whatever you want, but that doesn't change that simple fact. I understand that you're angry and emotional about this, having invested money and received nothing for it, but you're not stupid, and you knew the risks beforehand. You knew what the format would be, as this isn't the first time it was used. You knew the kind of players that Impact would be going up against. At least, I assume you knew all that, since it was all common knowledge. You took the risk because you thought that Impact would be good enough to get through, despite the opposition and the format. If you really had thought that the format would make it impossible or highly unlikely for Impact to get through, I bet you wouldn't have put your money behind him, as like I said, I don't think you're stupid. The way you feel about this whole thing now is understandable, but you don't have to be an asshole about it and tell people to fuck off because you don't agree with them. That just makes you seem like a complete jackass. I really don't give a shit about how you feel. You have no investment in any of these results, you can easily say whatever you like without any consequence. Impact played like a moron against Snute in a ZvZ. Unfortunate, since Snute was arguably the worst player in the group. Had he not played like a moron certainly things would have turned out differently, but frankly since everyone in the group went 2-2 I find it laughable that you think any player was "good enough" more than any other, since they all scored the damn same. You don't care. You're arguing for the sake of it. You have no investment. I have a reason to care. It's that simple. As far as I'm concerned Dreamhacks format sucks. The evidence presented is the fact that nobody else uses it, round-robin is largely abandoned in any form for major events and the GSL dual-tournament format is standard across the board for most events including WCS. That on its own is strong enough evidence to suggest that maybe Dreamhacks format is junk and that's before this ridiculous 5 people got the same series score result. Your evidence can be turned around so easily though by saying, that noone outside of esports uses GSL system. Brackets have mostly died out in chess, becuase they are simply bad at determining all positions by skill. Just out of curiosity, what would you think about having a tournament trying out swiss system for a smaller event? The format of other sports is irrelevant to Starcraft 2.
Why? Formats exist to determine, who is better at specific things, regardless of what exact things those are.
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On November 28 2014 07:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 07:49 Xoronius wrote:On November 28 2014 07:44 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 07:18 sigm wrote:
You know, TB, bottom line is that Impact just didn't cut it. I don't know whether it was a lack of preparation, or a lack of skill, but the simple fact is that he wasn't good enough to get out of the group. You can blame the format, the tournament, the weather, whatever you want, but that doesn't change that simple fact. I understand that you're angry and emotional about this, having invested money and received nothing for it, but you're not stupid, and you knew the risks beforehand. You knew what the format would be, as this isn't the first time it was used. You knew the kind of players that Impact would be going up against. At least, I assume you knew all that, since it was all common knowledge. You took the risk because you thought that Impact would be good enough to get through, despite the opposition and the format. If you really had thought that the format would make it impossible or highly unlikely for Impact to get through, I bet you wouldn't have put your money behind him, as like I said, I don't think you're stupid. The way you feel about this whole thing now is understandable, but you don't have to be an asshole about it and tell people to fuck off because you don't agree with them. That just makes you seem like a complete jackass. I really don't give a shit about how you feel. You have no investment in any of these results, you can easily say whatever you like without any consequence. Impact played like a moron against Snute in a ZvZ. Unfortunate, since Snute was arguably the worst player in the group. Had he not played like a moron certainly things would have turned out differently, but frankly since everyone in the group went 2-2 I find it laughable that you think any player was "good enough" more than any other, since they all scored the damn same. You don't care. You're arguing for the sake of it. You have no investment. I have a reason to care. It's that simple. As far as I'm concerned Dreamhacks format sucks. The evidence presented is the fact that nobody else uses it, round-robin is largely abandoned in any form for major events and the GSL dual-tournament format is standard across the board for most events including WCS. That on its own is strong enough evidence to suggest that maybe Dreamhacks format is junk and that's before this ridiculous 5 people got the same series score result. Your evidence can be turned around so easily though by saying, that noone outside of esports uses GSL system. Brackets have mostly died out in chess, becuase they are simply bad at determining all positions by skill. Just out of curiosity, what would you think about having a tournament trying out swiss system for a smaller event? The format of other sports is irrelevant to Starcraft 2.
I'd say the formats of tournaments involving other 1v1 competition are relevant, at least for comparison's sake. You could look at tennis, or chess, or whatever... GSL format is kind of dumb we have to admit.
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On November 28 2014 07:52 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 07:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 07:49 Xoronius wrote:On November 28 2014 07:44 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 07:18 sigm wrote:
You know, TB, bottom line is that Impact just didn't cut it. I don't know whether it was a lack of preparation, or a lack of skill, but the simple fact is that he wasn't good enough to get out of the group. You can blame the format, the tournament, the weather, whatever you want, but that doesn't change that simple fact. I understand that you're angry and emotional about this, having invested money and received nothing for it, but you're not stupid, and you knew the risks beforehand. You knew what the format would be, as this isn't the first time it was used. You knew the kind of players that Impact would be going up against. At least, I assume you knew all that, since it was all common knowledge. You took the risk because you thought that Impact would be good enough to get through, despite the opposition and the format. If you really had thought that the format would make it impossible or highly unlikely for Impact to get through, I bet you wouldn't have put your money behind him, as like I said, I don't think you're stupid. The way you feel about this whole thing now is understandable, but you don't have to be an asshole about it and tell people to fuck off because you don't agree with them. That just makes you seem like a complete jackass. I really don't give a shit about how you feel. You have no investment in any of these results, you can easily say whatever you like without any consequence. Impact played like a moron against Snute in a ZvZ. Unfortunate, since Snute was arguably the worst player in the group. Had he not played like a moron certainly things would have turned out differently, but frankly since everyone in the group went 2-2 I find it laughable that you think any player was "good enough" more than any other, since they all scored the damn same. You don't care. You're arguing for the sake of it. You have no investment. I have a reason to care. It's that simple. As far as I'm concerned Dreamhacks format sucks. The evidence presented is the fact that nobody else uses it, round-robin is largely abandoned in any form for major events and the GSL dual-tournament format is standard across the board for most events including WCS. That on its own is strong enough evidence to suggest that maybe Dreamhacks format is junk and that's before this ridiculous 5 people got the same series score result. Your evidence can be turned around so easily though by saying, that noone outside of esports uses GSL system. Brackets have mostly died out in chess, becuase they are simply bad at determining all positions by skill. Just out of curiosity, what would you think about having a tournament trying out swiss system for a smaller event? The format of other sports is irrelevant to Starcraft 2. Why? Formats exist to determine, who is better at specific things, regardless of what exact things those are.
Cause he doesn't want to be reasonable atm, that's why
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On November 28 2014 07:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 07:49 Xoronius wrote:On November 28 2014 07:44 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 07:18 sigm wrote:
You know, TB, bottom line is that Impact just didn't cut it. I don't know whether it was a lack of preparation, or a lack of skill, but the simple fact is that he wasn't good enough to get out of the group. You can blame the format, the tournament, the weather, whatever you want, but that doesn't change that simple fact. I understand that you're angry and emotional about this, having invested money and received nothing for it, but you're not stupid, and you knew the risks beforehand. You knew what the format would be, as this isn't the first time it was used. You knew the kind of players that Impact would be going up against. At least, I assume you knew all that, since it was all common knowledge. You took the risk because you thought that Impact would be good enough to get through, despite the opposition and the format. If you really had thought that the format would make it impossible or highly unlikely for Impact to get through, I bet you wouldn't have put your money behind him, as like I said, I don't think you're stupid. The way you feel about this whole thing now is understandable, but you don't have to be an asshole about it and tell people to fuck off because you don't agree with them. That just makes you seem like a complete jackass. I really don't give a shit about how you feel. You have no investment in any of these results, you can easily say whatever you like without any consequence. Impact played like a moron against Snute in a ZvZ. Unfortunate, since Snute was arguably the worst player in the group. Had he not played like a moron certainly things would have turned out differently, but frankly since everyone in the group went 2-2 I find it laughable that you think any player was "good enough" more than any other, since they all scored the damn same. You don't care. You're arguing for the sake of it. You have no investment. I have a reason to care. It's that simple. As far as I'm concerned Dreamhacks format sucks. The evidence presented is the fact that nobody else uses it, round-robin is largely abandoned in any form for major events and the GSL dual-tournament format is standard across the board for most events including WCS. That on its own is strong enough evidence to suggest that maybe Dreamhacks format is junk and that's before this ridiculous 5 people got the same series score result. Your evidence can be turned around so easily though by saying, that noone outside of esports uses GSL system. Brackets have mostly died out in chess, becuase they are simply bad at determining all positions by skill. Just out of curiosity, what would you think about having a tournament trying out swiss system for a smaller event? The format of other sports is irrelevant to Starcraft 2.
How so? There is still skill difference in other sports. The only possible explanation I could see is because of race imbalances (A<B, B<C, C<A) but I don't see how that would make a difference in finding out the best players.
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On November 28 2014 07:54 Supersamu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 07:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 07:49 Xoronius wrote:On November 28 2014 07:44 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 07:18 sigm wrote:
You know, TB, bottom line is that Impact just didn't cut it. I don't know whether it was a lack of preparation, or a lack of skill, but the simple fact is that he wasn't good enough to get out of the group. You can blame the format, the tournament, the weather, whatever you want, but that doesn't change that simple fact. I understand that you're angry and emotional about this, having invested money and received nothing for it, but you're not stupid, and you knew the risks beforehand. You knew what the format would be, as this isn't the first time it was used. You knew the kind of players that Impact would be going up against. At least, I assume you knew all that, since it was all common knowledge. You took the risk because you thought that Impact would be good enough to get through, despite the opposition and the format. If you really had thought that the format would make it impossible or highly unlikely for Impact to get through, I bet you wouldn't have put your money behind him, as like I said, I don't think you're stupid. The way you feel about this whole thing now is understandable, but you don't have to be an asshole about it and tell people to fuck off because you don't agree with them. That just makes you seem like a complete jackass. I really don't give a shit about how you feel. You have no investment in any of these results, you can easily say whatever you like without any consequence. Impact played like a moron against Snute in a ZvZ. Unfortunate, since Snute was arguably the worst player in the group. Had he not played like a moron certainly things would have turned out differently, but frankly since everyone in the group went 2-2 I find it laughable that you think any player was "good enough" more than any other, since they all scored the damn same. You don't care. You're arguing for the sake of it. You have no investment. I have a reason to care. It's that simple. As far as I'm concerned Dreamhacks format sucks. The evidence presented is the fact that nobody else uses it, round-robin is largely abandoned in any form for major events and the GSL dual-tournament format is standard across the board for most events including WCS. That on its own is strong enough evidence to suggest that maybe Dreamhacks format is junk and that's before this ridiculous 5 people got the same series score result. Your evidence can be turned around so easily though by saying, that noone outside of esports uses GSL system. Brackets have mostly died out in chess, becuase they are simply bad at determining all positions by skill. Just out of curiosity, what would you think about having a tournament trying out swiss system for a smaller event? The format of other sports is irrelevant to Starcraft 2. How so? There is still skill difference in other sports. The only possible explanation I could see is because of race imbalances (A<B, B<C, C<A) but I don't see how that would make a difference in finding out the best players.
race imbalances and players' having stronger and weaker matches is a strong argument FOR round robin not against, GSL style groups make it easy to avoid certain players, which is not only a luck factor but can also invalidate preparations
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Towards you newest edit TB: Yes, the lag spike in Impact - Jjakji changing everything is an extremely unfortunate thing to happen. If it would have happened in game 3 of Impact/Polt, so that Polt would have won, it would also change the entire group, regardless of which format would have been played. In GSL system every lag-spike, that tunrs around a game in game 3 is changing the outcome of the group irreversibly.
Lags are bad and you can complain about those as long as you want, I'll fully agree with you here. But that has nothing to do with the format.
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On November 28 2014 07:55 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 07:54 Supersamu wrote:On November 28 2014 07:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 07:49 Xoronius wrote:On November 28 2014 07:44 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 07:18 sigm wrote:
You know, TB, bottom line is that Impact just didn't cut it. I don't know whether it was a lack of preparation, or a lack of skill, but the simple fact is that he wasn't good enough to get out of the group. You can blame the format, the tournament, the weather, whatever you want, but that doesn't change that simple fact. I understand that you're angry and emotional about this, having invested money and received nothing for it, but you're not stupid, and you knew the risks beforehand. You knew what the format would be, as this isn't the first time it was used. You knew the kind of players that Impact would be going up against. At least, I assume you knew all that, since it was all common knowledge. You took the risk because you thought that Impact would be good enough to get through, despite the opposition and the format. If you really had thought that the format would make it impossible or highly unlikely for Impact to get through, I bet you wouldn't have put your money behind him, as like I said, I don't think you're stupid. The way you feel about this whole thing now is understandable, but you don't have to be an asshole about it and tell people to fuck off because you don't agree with them. That just makes you seem like a complete jackass. I really don't give a shit about how you feel. You have no investment in any of these results, you can easily say whatever you like without any consequence. Impact played like a moron against Snute in a ZvZ. Unfortunate, since Snute was arguably the worst player in the group. Had he not played like a moron certainly things would have turned out differently, but frankly since everyone in the group went 2-2 I find it laughable that you think any player was "good enough" more than any other, since they all scored the damn same. You don't care. You're arguing for the sake of it. You have no investment. I have a reason to care. It's that simple. As far as I'm concerned Dreamhacks format sucks. The evidence presented is the fact that nobody else uses it, round-robin is largely abandoned in any form for major events and the GSL dual-tournament format is standard across the board for most events including WCS. That on its own is strong enough evidence to suggest that maybe Dreamhacks format is junk and that's before this ridiculous 5 people got the same series score result. Your evidence can be turned around so easily though by saying, that noone outside of esports uses GSL system. Brackets have mostly died out in chess, becuase they are simply bad at determining all positions by skill. Just out of curiosity, what would you think about having a tournament trying out swiss system for a smaller event? The format of other sports is irrelevant to Starcraft 2. How so? There is still skill difference in other sports. The only possible explanation I could see is because of race imbalances (A<B, B<C, C<A) but I don't see how that would make a difference in finding out the best players. race imbalances and players' having stronger and weaker matches is a strong argument FOR round robin not against, GSL style groups make it easy to avoid certain players, which is not only a luck factor but can also invalidate preparations
Yes, the main purpose of bringing that up was to say that this line of arguing doesn't make sense in this situation. I think Rund-robin is the way to go.
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Anyway, I have to go to bed now. Die4ever, can you educate everyone about the glory of round robin, if someone questions it in the next 2 days? I have to help a friend move, so I sadly can't do it myself.
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sorry for the noob question, but how do I find the VODs on twitch?
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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EPT
