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The_Templar
your Country52798 Posts
On November 28 2014 08:03 prOpSnuffe wrote: sorry for the noob question, but how do I find the VODs on twitch? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/119948-small-sc2-vod-thread?page=31#601 | ||
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prOpSnuffe
Sweden241 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17744 Posts
On November 28 2014 08:00 Xoronius wrote: Anyway, I have to go to bed now. Die4ever, can you educate everyone about the glory of round robin, if someone questions it in the next 2 days? I have to help a friend move, so I sadly can't do it myself. lol | ||
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The_Templar
your Country52798 Posts
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henkalv
Norway4 Posts
On November 28 2014 07:37 Xoronius wrote: I don't see the problem here to be honest. You can just view the series as +2/+1 instead of 2:0/2:1 and you have a clear view at who performed better. Your point would come in if the players would play a lot more maps, so that a +2-mapscore could mean a lower winrate than a +3 for example, but I don't think, that that comes into play here. Because if the guys finishing at the top of the group had played all 3 matches and won all of them then it would be clear that they deserved their spot on the top, but now they could just as well all played 2:1´s and be compleatly equal all of them. I might be missing something here, but that some players gets to play fewer games then others still seems a bit unfair to me especially when advancement comes down to one map | ||
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betaman
United Kingdom355 Posts
On November 28 2014 07:53 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I'd say the formats of tournaments involving other 1v1 competition are relevant, at least for comparison's sake. You could look at tennis, or chess, or whatever... GSL format is kind of dumb we have to admit. What is dumb about the GSL format? They use round robin format for the tour finals in tennis and it has caused many problems. In 2009 this was the standings W-L Sets Games Roger Federer 2–1 5–4 (55.6%) 44–40 (52.4%) 1 Andy Murray 2–1 5–4 (55.6%) 44–43 (50.6%) 3 Juan Martín del Potro 2–1 5–4 (55.6%) 45–43 (51.1%) 2 Fernando Verdasco 0–3 3–6 (33.3%) 45–52 (46.4%) 4 So Murray went out because he had the lowest games won percentage. Surely if they used the GSL format that would have been a lot better than that nonsense? | ||
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Topin
Peru10128 Posts
On November 28 2014 08:09 The_Templar wrote: I prefer round robin to WCS/GSL format personally ravagers!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17744 Posts
On November 28 2014 08:09 The_Templar wrote: I prefer round robin to WCS/GSL format personally yea, especially when there's a clear best player in the group and you only get to see them play 2 matches in GSL format  or when there's a specific match you wanted to see between 2 players but it gets avoided ((( | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
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vult
United States9400 Posts
Wooo Polt! | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On November 28 2014 10:19 vult wrote: Wow the group D results are awesome! So evenly matched! Wooo Polt! Don't let TB be hearing you say that they're awesome. I've never seen a man so salty | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On November 28 2014 10:21 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Don't let TB be hearing you say that they're awesome. I've never seen a man so salty He has a right to be, Why the hell is the tiebreaker map score and not H2H? Leenock beats Taeja? Sorry, map score not good enough. Out Solar beats Patience? Nope sorry Solar, you're done Impact beats the top two in the group? Nah F*** you buddy, we want boring 2-0's here It just leave too much open to possible collusion, it's 2014 and we still have to suffer this bullshit? Why don't we decide the final 12 by a series of monobattles? it's just as "fair" as this crap | ||
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FsKsc2
Canada27 Posts
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Boucot
France15997 Posts
On November 28 2014 11:28 FsKsc2 wrote: Is there any match in today's VOD that has someone cheesing? Basically all the Protoss against ForGG. | ||
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FsKsc2
Canada27 Posts
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Sumahi
Guam5609 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
Once you have more than two players, there isn't a format that's perfectly fair (this is probably mathematically provable, through Arrow's impossibility theorem). You always have trade-offs, and someone will always potentially get shafted. So the tournament organizer has to decide, and that decision will always cause discontent. | ||
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kaykoose
United States2302 Posts
On November 28 2014 10:32 showstealer1829 wrote: He has a right to be, Why the hell is the tiebreaker map score and not H2H? Leenock beats Taeja? Sorry, map score not good enough. Out Solar beats Patience? Nope sorry Solar, you're done Impact beats the top two in the group? Nah F*** you buddy, we want boring 2-0's here It just leave too much open to possible collusion, it's 2014 and we still have to suffer this bullshit? Why don't we decide the final 12 by a series of monobattles? it's just as "fair" as this crap lol | ||
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w3c.TruE
Czech Republic1055 Posts
On November 28 2014 10:32 showstealer1829 wrote: He has a right to be, Why the hell is the tiebreaker map score and not H2H? Leenock beats Taeja? Sorry, map score not good enough. Out Solar beats Patience? Nope sorry Solar, you're done Impact beats the top two in the group? Nah F*** you buddy, we want boring 2-0's here It just leave too much open to possible collusion, it's 2014 and we still have to suffer this bullshit? Why don't we decide the final 12 by a series of monobattles? it's just as "fair" as this crap So, you would like the tiebreaker for all 5 players in group D, then? So basicly play group stage all over again. Well it might end up the same as now... | ||
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Hassan_RO
Romania77 Posts
On November 28 2014 07:44 TotalBiscuit wrote: You have no investment in any of these results, you can easily say whatever you like without any consequence. Impact played like a moron against Snute in a ZvZ. Unfortunate, since Snute was arguably the worst player in the group. Had he not played like a moron certainly things would have turned out differently, but frankly since everyone in the group went 2-2 I find it laughable that you think any player was "good enough" more than any other, since they all scored the damn same. You don't care. You're arguing for the sake of it. You have no investment. I have a reason to care. It's that simple. As far as I'm concerned Dreamhacks format sucks. The evidence presented is the fact that nobody else uses it, round-robin is largely abandoned in any form for major events and the GSL dual-tournament format is standard across the board for most events including WCS. That on its own is strong enough evidence to suggest that maybe Dreamhacks format is junk and that's before this ridiculous 5 people got the same series score result. If you want to get in even deeper when it comes to how stupid this format is, we can look at game one of Jjakji vs Impact, a game that was plagued by lag because the community casters literally invited a troll account into the game who caused a bunch of lag (and Winter was actually having drops in his connection during the game too). Impact lost that map. Under ideal circumstances and considering how hard he stomped Jjakji in the following 2 maps, it would not be unreasonable to say that Impact would have won that series 2-0 instead of 2-1, which would have put him at a 5-5 map score and jjakji at a 5-6, changing the entire look of the group. See how stupid that is? TB, i think everyone on this forum and on this thread respects you a lot, and we encourage you and stand behind you 100% for what you're doing with Axiom, especially flying players to events, it's a huge effort...... BUT you have to admit you're being 99% (if not 100%) emotional in your posts. We know you are upset, but let's try to take a look at the cold, hard facts : --> First you complained about the format, basically insulting it and the people at DH for organizing like that, and giving the GSL example. But, the GSL system has flaws just like this system has its flaws. For me personally i like the round-robin system more since it lets everyone play everyone. With GSL brackets i always wonder, what if that player who the first player who made 2 BO3 victories dodged, would have beat him? Granted i'm talking from a pure viewer's perspective. But, isn't that 3rd player influenced by things out of his control - the fact that the winner of the group got out, by dodging him? Maybe that was his best match-up.....you see how the things can be put the other way round? Ofc with round robin you will always have the risk of tied scores, and you will need to decide tiebreakers. In this case i think mapscore is very fair, just like set score/game score in Tennis. And here i come to my 2nd argument --> You are saying that your own player played like a moron, agains the weakest opponent in the group. I will not elaborate on this further but imagine what it would happen if at the end of a football match, instead of saying "he made a mistake but it's OK, we will recover, we will stay together" the coach would say on TV that "player X played like a moron" And i come to the argument of mapscore. Your player could have changed the whole game, if he had won ONE map against the "weakest player in the group". Not the BO3, but ONE MAP. With 6-6 i think he would be through in 2nd place. Please tell me if he's as good as you claim him to be, he took 1 map off MMA, beat Jjajki and Polt and he couldn't take 1 map off Snute. I really understand that you're upset abought the flight cost and everything, but the argument doesn't stand up! And you can say Snute ZvZ all day long, that doesn't mean that other players didn't have to play their least-favorite matchups too. What if Impact had to play only against Z or P? Which brings me to the next argument, your mention of lag --> Now the argument of lag in the game with jjakji is.....funny to say the least. As someone here pointed out, there were other matches plagued by lag, where maybe other players (Polt i think was the example) could have obtained different/better results without it, even against your player. I'm sorry but you seem to be grasping at straws....the format is to blame, the lag in one game is to blame...moron play in ZvZ is to blame......everything else is to blame...... Bottom line, unfortunately you lost your investment, and we're all sorry for that, but you knew about the format when you made that investment, and you were clearly confident enough that your player could go through. The fact that you invested and you have a direct reason to care doesn't mean that you are right about the argument based on that fact alone.....please get some rest, calm your nerves, and be ready for next year! Things are looking wonderful with opportunities in Korea so Axiom and all your players, being physically there, will be very advantaged by all the new tourneys and cups going on, and maybe you won't have to spend cash in order to go to "stupid dreamhack format" anymore. | ||
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