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Winner of the fan fiction contest here and winner of the hype video contest here. |
On November 03 2014 03:01 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 02:49 Cheren wrote:On November 03 2014 01:42 Dodgin wrote:On November 02 2014 20:08 sharkie wrote:
SC2 is way too young to want consistency. BW took years too to get consistent dominant players Yah it's not like life and taeja have won 18 premier tournaments between them or anything. Typical kespa fanboys underestimating them. 1 GSL between them. Too bad LP doesn't have a category above "premier". also the anti-kespa fanboys backpedaled so fucking hard after underestimating Classic. I think everyone underestimated Classic. He played a lot better than his preview article suggested he would. Who cares about the number of GSL's when Zest hasn't won any of the foreign events he's went to, It's a different kind of skill. One that should be equally respected when It's repeated so many times over. Zest won GSL, GSL Global and Kespa cup, but wasn't able to win any of the 3 IEM events he went to(which should be easier, right?).
I would say KesPA Cup is a lot more similar to an IEM than it is to GSL. I don't have a good explanation, the easiest answer is that Taeja is more used to travel and Zest didn't have to travel for KesPA cup.
Probably not the whole story though.
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On November 03 2014 02:37 10bulgares wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 14:33 brickrd wrote:On November 02 2014 14:29 10bulgares wrote:
Am I right if I say that terran's economy is more difficult to establish in the beginning than the zerg's but that the zerg's is more difficult to maintain in the end game (keeping the creep spread, injects on a hundred bases, not getting messed up with the rally points from hatcheries all over the map)?
It looks as if zerg's player in the end game have a harder time maintaining their economy than the terrans. its not so much injects or rally points or even creep (although respreading creep is important) but just the fact that zerg needs to make certain choices with their gas that are tough to balance while maintaining a big base spread. that's why zergs prefer to defend, take an army lead and just crush with a counterattack instead of going "full macro." if you choose ultra/infestor you lose a LOT of mobility and it gets hard to defend 6+ bases. if you retain a high muta count you get weak in direct engagements, etc. etc. It seemed indeed that gas was the issue in most of these late games but at the same time, there were a number of gas fields that were not exploited by soO. Did he not have the time to build the extractors? Not enough drones? Not enough larva? On the creep spread part, why do you think creep spread becomes sloppy in the late game? Creep is the equivalent of scans for the zerg and is key to take the best engagements (especially important when two maxed out armies meet each other) but it seems much more difficult to handle to me (+ it doesn't reveal the mines). It seemed to me that soO had almost no queen in the late game. Hence maybe a shortage of larvae and missing creep spread. But what makes it difficult to maintain the number of queens? I was thinking of some possible changes to help: - make an upgrade for creep tumors to increase their range of sight and perhaps also maybe the creep they spread. - make the damages of the queens insensitive to upgrades (magic damage) so that it stays an OK defense unit without range upgrade and zergs don't lose too much when using some supply for queens. Perhaps also make queen target air in priority a bit like thors. I'm thinking better defense against medivac play in the late game for zergs.
The only reason creep gets difficult in the lategame is because queens die very quickly to pretty much everything, so it's hard to have a consistent queen presence at the edge of creep, and creep also gets cleared very quickly. It's not as though Taeja was pushing the creep all the way back to soO's bases, but against a good terran like Taeja getting creep past more than the Z half of the map should be (and is) very difficult.
I think perhaps one of the things that is underutilized on big maps is sending strands of creep across the map where you aren't expanding just yet. Most anti-creep push will be taking place at the front and if you extend the creep all the way across the map and then just leave overlords in dead space it would make it super easy to spot drops
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If we are here to speak about underrated players this tournament, we would speak about Life, where the poll showed a 86% vs 14%, being the biggest "upset".
Anyways weekend tournaments require different skill toolsets as preparation is in itself less focused on a current player/match up, and some players have a lot of experience on them, and some others are just really talented at the format (Life comes to mind as a natural contender whenever i am watching a weekend event, same as Taeja).
We would get elitist and bias our perception about skill only in what we perceive as a correct way to measure skill, but that would be just doing tunnel vision when there are different tournament formats.
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On November 03 2014 03:18 Godwrath wrote:
Anyways weekend tournaments require different skill toolsets as preparation is in itself less focused on a current player/match up, and some players have a lot of experience on them, and some others are just really talented at the format (Life comes to mind as a natural contender whenever i am watching a weekend event, same as Taeja).
I think it comes down to being able to play your best despite traveling a lot. On paper, online qualifiers are similar to weekend tournaments, but KesPA players do much better in those. And in KesPA cup, which had a weekend tournament format but didn't require any travel for most of the players, KesPA players dominated.
Is being able to play your best when you travel a necessary skill in SC2? Absolutely. But in BW it wasn't.
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Polt vs Classic in overgrowth what a great game haahaha
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On November 03 2014 02:49 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 01:42 Dodgin wrote:On November 02 2014 20:08 sharkie wrote:
SC2 is way too young to want consistency. BW took years too to get consistent dominant players Yah it's not like life and taeja have won 18 premier tournaments between them or anything. Typical kespa fanboys underestimating them. 1 GSL between them. Too bad LP doesn't have a category above "premier". also the anti-kespa fanboys backpedaled so fucking hard after underestimating Classic.
yet classic has a gsl and nothing else! why would there be category above premier when those same guys that win gsl cant win anything else and get wrecked by same people that win everything else? how is that above premier?
soo has 0 gsl... is he worse than classic?
stop being silly...
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Oh my god just watched the VOD for Life vs Zest as that was when I went to sleep. What a fucking perfect series. It had everything, the underdog surprising everyone by outplaying the favourite, the favourite gnawing his way back in the series with two nailbiting wins (I don't think many players other than Zest could have won that swarmhost game, sick play by him there), the hydra vs stalker standoff in game 4 and a cannon rush into counter rush to finish it. The full spectrum of starcraft. I forgot how good Life is when he is in the USA  .
Makes me so excited about Starcraft holy shit. Now I'm hoping that soO vs Taeja and Hyun vs Inno were just as good. Also props to Lorning for his VOD thread
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On November 03 2014 03:26 genai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 02:49 Cheren wrote:On November 03 2014 01:42 Dodgin wrote:On November 02 2014 20:08 sharkie wrote:
SC2 is way too young to want consistency. BW took years too to get consistent dominant players Yah it's not like life and taeja have won 18 premier tournaments between them or anything. Typical kespa fanboys underestimating them. 1 GSL between them. Too bad LP doesn't have a category above "premier". also the anti-kespa fanboys backpedaled so fucking hard after underestimating Classic. yet classic has a gsl and nothing else! why would there be category above premier when those same guys that win gsl cant win anything else and get wrecked by same people that win everything else? how is that above premier? soo has 0 gsl... is he worse than classic? stop being silly...
They were too busy trying to win proleague for SKT...
Anyway it's good that there will be 9 individual leagues in Korea next year, even if that means 9 more 2nd places for soO.
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On November 03 2014 03:24 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 03:18 Godwrath wrote:
Anyways weekend tournaments require different skill toolsets as preparation is in itself less focused on a current player/match up, and some players have a lot of experience on them, and some others are just really talented at the format (Life comes to mind as a natural contender whenever i am watching a weekend event, same as Taeja). I think it comes down to being able to play your best despite traveling a lot. On paper, online qualifiers are similar to weekend tournaments, but KesPA players do much better in those. And in KesPA cup, which had a weekend tournament format but didn't require any travel for most of the players, KesPA players dominated. Is being able to play your best when you travel a necessary skill in SC2? Absolutely. But in BW it wasn't.
If you look at who played in Kespa cup, they were a little bit outnumbered. Bomber beat Rain, San beat Byul, Super beat soO and Stardust almost took out Flash in R1. The only player outside Kespa that got dominated was Pigbaby(who was on Jin Air until recently anyway)
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On November 02 2014 20:04 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 20:02 sharkie wrote:
Now if san defeats Life - what will this make of Life AND Zest? Not virile enough for ManZenith.
San really might beat life. San is 10-2 vs life in maps. If that happens he might be the worst player to go the furthest.
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On November 03 2014 03:31 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 03:24 Cheren wrote:On November 03 2014 03:18 Godwrath wrote:
Anyways weekend tournaments require different skill toolsets as preparation is in itself less focused on a current player/match up, and some players have a lot of experience on them, and some others are just really talented at the format (Life comes to mind as a natural contender whenever i am watching a weekend event, same as Taeja). I think it comes down to being able to play your best despite traveling a lot. On paper, online qualifiers are similar to weekend tournaments, but KesPA players do much better in those. And in KesPA cup, which had a weekend tournament format but didn't require any travel for most of the players, KesPA players dominated. Is being able to play your best when you travel a necessary skill in SC2? Absolutely. But in BW it wasn't. If you look at who played in Kespa cup, they were a little bit outnumbered. Bomber beat Rain, San beat Byul, Super beat soO and Stardust almost took out Flash in R1. The only player outside Kespa that got dominated was Pigbaby(who was on Jin Air until recently anyway)
It's hard to talk to you about this since you consider all the ex-ESF guys fake KesPA. I'm not an elephant-ist that thinks the old ESF guys are worse than the guys playing BW in 2011-2012, I'm someone who thinks KesPA provides the best training regiment for 99% of players, with the 1% being Taeja and maybe Bomber.
And Bomber did beat Rain, but he lost to herO.
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On November 03 2014 03:35 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 03:31 Dodgin wrote:On November 03 2014 03:24 Cheren wrote:On November 03 2014 03:18 Godwrath wrote:
Anyways weekend tournaments require different skill toolsets as preparation is in itself less focused on a current player/match up, and some players have a lot of experience on them, and some others are just really talented at the format (Life comes to mind as a natural contender whenever i am watching a weekend event, same as Taeja). I think it comes down to being able to play your best despite traveling a lot. On paper, online qualifiers are similar to weekend tournaments, but KesPA players do much better in those. And in KesPA cup, which had a weekend tournament format but didn't require any travel for most of the players, KesPA players dominated. Is being able to play your best when you travel a necessary skill in SC2? Absolutely. But in BW it wasn't. If you look at who played in Kespa cup, they were a little bit outnumbered. Bomber beat Rain, San beat Byul, Super beat soO and Stardust almost took out Flash in R1. The only player outside Kespa that got dominated was Pigbaby(who was on Jin Air until recently anyway) It's hard to talk to you about this since you consider all the ex-ESF guys fake KesPA. I'm not an elephant-ist that thinks the old ESF guys are worse than the guys playing BW in 2011-2012, I'm someone who thinks KesPA provides the best training regiment for 99% of players, with the 1% being Taeja and maybe Bomber.
I included Byul as kespa so it should be obvious that's not what I'm talking about
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On November 03 2014 03:24 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 03:18 Godwrath wrote:
Anyways weekend tournaments require different skill toolsets as preparation is in itself less focused on a current player/match up, and some players have a lot of experience on them, and some others are just really talented at the format (Life comes to mind as a natural contender whenever i am watching a weekend event, same as Taeja). I think it comes down to being able to play your best despite traveling a lot. On paper, online qualifiers are similar to weekend tournaments, but KesPA players do much better in those. And in KesPA cup, which had a weekend tournament format but didn't require any travel for most of the players, KesPA players dominated. Is being able to play your best when you travel a necessary skill in SC2? Absolutely. But in BW it wasn't. I think you are trying to draw too many parallels. Online qualifiers are quite different from weekend tournaments. While play may be on a burst, you do it from your comfort zone (home/teamhouse).
It is not only the travel, it is the pressure from knowing that it costed your team money to put you there, in online qualifiers you don't play for fat cash either, seeing your opponents, knowing that your fans are directly watching. I mean... really they are not comparable, except if you try to vacuum everything else and just speak about playing a lot of games in a short time.
And yes, being able to keep yourself together after traveling, being on a venue, and on pressure, are skills required to win weekend tournaments, and i would say they are desirable traits, since most of the money comes from those tournaments.
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On November 03 2014 03:36 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 03:35 Cheren wrote:On November 03 2014 03:31 Dodgin wrote:On November 03 2014 03:24 Cheren wrote:On November 03 2014 03:18 Godwrath wrote:
Anyways weekend tournaments require different skill toolsets as preparation is in itself less focused on a current player/match up, and some players have a lot of experience on them, and some others are just really talented at the format (Life comes to mind as a natural contender whenever i am watching a weekend event, same as Taeja). I think it comes down to being able to play your best despite traveling a lot. On paper, online qualifiers are similar to weekend tournaments, but KesPA players do much better in those. And in KesPA cup, which had a weekend tournament format but didn't require any travel for most of the players, KesPA players dominated. Is being able to play your best when you travel a necessary skill in SC2? Absolutely. But in BW it wasn't. If you look at who played in Kespa cup, they were a little bit outnumbered. Bomber beat Rain, San beat Byul, Super beat soO and Stardust almost took out Flash in R1. The only player outside Kespa that got dominated was Pigbaby(who was on Jin Air until recently anyway) It's hard to talk to you about this since you consider all the ex-ESF guys fake KesPA. I'm not an elephant-ist that thinks the old ESF guys are worse than the guys playing BW in 2011-2012, I'm someone who thinks KesPA provides the best training regiment for 99% of players, with the 1% being Taeja and maybe Bomber. I included Byul as kespa so it should be obvious that's not what I'm talking about
ByuL was on Samsung Khan in 2011, so not really.
On November 03 2014 03:38 Godwrath wrote:
except if you try to vacuum everything else and just speak about playing a lot of games in a short time.
Which is what most people, including you, talk about when you compare GSL to weekend tournaments. No one talked about anything besides preparation until I brought up weekend qualifiers.
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Canada8159 Posts
On November 03 2014 03:35 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 03:31 Dodgin wrote:On November 03 2014 03:24 Cheren wrote:On November 03 2014 03:18 Godwrath wrote:
Anyways weekend tournaments require different skill toolsets as preparation is in itself less focused on a current player/match up, and some players have a lot of experience on them, and some others are just really talented at the format (Life comes to mind as a natural contender whenever i am watching a weekend event, same as Taeja). I think it comes down to being able to play your best despite traveling a lot. On paper, online qualifiers are similar to weekend tournaments, but KesPA players do much better in those. And in KesPA cup, which had a weekend tournament format but didn't require any travel for most of the players, KesPA players dominated. Is being able to play your best when you travel a necessary skill in SC2? Absolutely. But in BW it wasn't. If you look at who played in Kespa cup, they were a little bit outnumbered. Bomber beat Rain, San beat Byul, Super beat soO and Stardust almost took out Flash in R1. The only player outside Kespa that got dominated was Pigbaby(who was on Jin Air until recently anyway) It's hard to talk to you about this since you consider all the ex-ESF guys fake KesPA. I'm not an elephant-ist that thinks the old ESF guys are worse than the guys playing BW in 2011-2012, I'm someone who thinks KesPA provides the best training regiment for 99% of players, with the 1% being Taeja and maybe Bomber. And Bomber did beat Rain, but he lost to herO.
training =/= skill
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On November 03 2014 03:39 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 03:36 Dodgin wrote:On November 03 2014 03:35 Cheren wrote:On November 03 2014 03:31 Dodgin wrote:On November 03 2014 03:24 Cheren wrote:On November 03 2014 03:18 Godwrath wrote:
Anyways weekend tournaments require different skill toolsets as preparation is in itself less focused on a current player/match up, and some players have a lot of experience on them, and some others are just really talented at the format (Life comes to mind as a natural contender whenever i am watching a weekend event, same as Taeja). I think it comes down to being able to play your best despite traveling a lot. On paper, online qualifiers are similar to weekend tournaments, but KesPA players do much better in those. And in KesPA cup, which had a weekend tournament format but didn't require any travel for most of the players, KesPA players dominated. Is being able to play your best when you travel a necessary skill in SC2? Absolutely. But in BW it wasn't. If you look at who played in Kespa cup, they were a little bit outnumbered. Bomber beat Rain, San beat Byul, Super beat soO and Stardust almost took out Flash in R1. The only player outside Kespa that got dominated was Pigbaby(who was on Jin Air until recently anyway) It's hard to talk to you about this since you consider all the ex-ESF guys fake KesPA. I'm not an elephant-ist that thinks the old ESF guys are worse than the guys playing BW in 2011-2012, I'm someone who thinks KesPA provides the best training regiment for 99% of players, with the 1% being Taeja and maybe Bomber. I included Byul as kespa so it should be obvious that's not what I'm talking about ByuL was on Samsung Khan in 2011, so not really.
I actually didn't know that. He was outside kespa for his entire sc2 career until joining CJ though.
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On November 03 2014 03:39 Jer99 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 03:35 Cheren wrote:On November 03 2014 03:31 Dodgin wrote:On November 03 2014 03:24 Cheren wrote:On November 03 2014 03:18 Godwrath wrote:
Anyways weekend tournaments require different skill toolsets as preparation is in itself less focused on a current player/match up, and some players have a lot of experience on them, and some others are just really talented at the format (Life comes to mind as a natural contender whenever i am watching a weekend event, same as Taeja). I think it comes down to being able to play your best despite traveling a lot. On paper, online qualifiers are similar to weekend tournaments, but KesPA players do much better in those. And in KesPA cup, which had a weekend tournament format but didn't require any travel for most of the players, KesPA players dominated. Is being able to play your best when you travel a necessary skill in SC2? Absolutely. But in BW it wasn't. If you look at who played in Kespa cup, they were a little bit outnumbered. Bomber beat Rain, San beat Byul, Super beat soO and Stardust almost took out Flash in R1. The only player outside Kespa that got dominated was Pigbaby(who was on Jin Air until recently anyway) It's hard to talk to you about this since you consider all the ex-ESF guys fake KesPA. I'm not an elephant-ist that thinks the old ESF guys are worse than the guys playing BW in 2011-2012, I'm someone who thinks KesPA provides the best training regiment for 99% of players, with the 1% being Taeja and maybe Bomber. And Bomber did beat Rain, but he lost to herO. training =/= skill
Of course not, but I don't think that it's a coincidence that, for example, Innovation's resurgence just coincidentally happened at the same time that he joined SKT.
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On November 03 2014 03:39 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 03:38 Godwrath wrote:
except if you try to vacuum everything else and just speak about playing a lot of games in a short time. Which is what most people, including you, talk about when you compare GSL to weekend tournaments. No one talked about anything besides preparation until I brought up weekend qualifiers.
I might be being a little short, but preparation isn't the end of everything, so i don't understand how can we discuss solely about preparation when the discussion raised about "GSL champ vs Weekend tournament champs". It wasn't in itself about preparation, it was about how people underrate weekend premier tournament winners because they are not playing WCS KR/GSL format, or they aren't that good at it than others like soO, who then happen to lose against players like Taeja at those weekend tournaments.
Laid back attitudes and training regimes tend to do better at weekend events than robot preparation, because it is easier to shrug off pressure and easier to be less stubborn about your play, most Polt's and Life's comebacks were because they switched to something entirely different after studying his opponent's play on the fly. What is better ? I don't know, i wouldn't even start to try to discuss it, but just acknowledge that they are different and move on.
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Norway10161 Posts
I just watched Soo vs Taeja, Inno vs Hyun and Life vs Zest.
What great quality of games (well, Inno kind of smashed Hyun), but Taeja vs Soo was just incredible. How does Taeja keep winning these unbelivable games versus the other best players in the world at their peaks? Amazing.
Also go old ESF, Bomber, MMA, Taeja, Life, San all advanced
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^^ same - missed the last two games last night and just checked the VODs - Soo vs Taeja series was awesome, especially game 3. If this quality continues at Blizzcon it will be some awesome finals for sure!
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EPT
