[IEM] Season IX - Shenzhen Final Day - Page 62

Its more like he has lost in ro4 or ro8 in every grand slam to eventual winners (all different players... not 1 player dominating him, and all matches very close)... but beat them repeatedly in every other tournament they entered and he won almost all of them... guy like that is obviously the best... if 1 guy won all grand slams... then maybe, but if not... he is still the best performer with winning all other tournaments(while beating those players) and going very far in grand slams (beating some of those players that won grand slams before in the process)

5 different people winning grand slam each, while 1 guy is the constant on the top in every one of them(being above 4 of those 5 in each grand slam they didnt win) while winning everything else(again being above those grand slam winners that enter)... makes that guy the best

as neither one of them can be called best due to obvious reasons

jodwin

Finland18 Posts

July 20 2014 08:52 GMT

#1223

This whole discussion about what determines the best player in the world reminds me of ski jumping: It's a sport where all of the following top-stats are shared by different athletes: Most Olympic medals, most four hill tournaments won (four hills is, by most, considered to be the most prestigious ski jump tournament, even more so than Olympics), most world cup events won, most world cups won and most world championships won. Sure you could try to argue than one athlete is better than the rest because whatever, but when the statistics are so widely spread between different competitors I have to ask...does it even matter who's the best because they're all great?

The same goes for SC2: We'll probably never be able to determine who the absolute best is because of the way the scene is spread out (Kespa stuck in Korea, different tournament formats suiting different players more than others, etc).

mongmong

Korea (South)1389 Posts

July 20 2014 09:24 GMT

#1224

On July 20 2014 16:24 Thrillz wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 20 2014 16:16 SSVnormandy wrote:

On July 20 2014 16:09 genai wrote:

On July 20 2014 15:54 pure.Wasted wrote:

On July 20 2014 15:50 genai wrote:

On July 20 2014 15:43 Thrillz wrote:
So the question is, can you be the best player in the world without going through the toughest tournament or even WCS America (or even making the finals). If you think yes, than I guess you would label him as "the best player in the world" but if you think no, then clearly he's not the best player in the world.

but, can you label someone the best player in the world after he wins in "the toughest tournament" and then losing easily and looking like 2nd grade player in tournaments without preparation? or losing to foreigners(that dont even have to cheese them to beat them... just because kespa player didnt have 2 weeks to prepare for exactly that player and those maps he encounters??)

So the best player in the world isn't allowed to lose any events?

I'm not ready to declare Taeja #1, but I think you're gonna have a lot of trouble coming up with any best players if your criteria are that strict. Even BW, that elitist paradise, was infamous for Code S finalists dropping out in RO32 of next season.

Where the hell did i say that(i see you edited, so guess this doesnt count anymore)? I just said that those same kespa players that might win gsl or something end up getting wrecked even by foreigners on regular basis in foreign style tournaments... let alone by taeja who wins most of those tournaments

yet when the roles are reversed... taeja still beats many of them even tho he never won the tournament, he did really well in them... i mean, everyone can lose to everyone in kespa style tournaments because of preparation and one time builds for specific maps that take better player by surprise... but why the hell doesnt taeja lose in those weekend tournaments even to top kespa players?

So there are 2 sides of the medal... one, without preparation, is dominated by one player who beats pretty much everyone all the time, including top kespa players... and the other that is dominated by noone and all the time new faces come out and have 1 time success due to preparation... aaand yet the same player dominating the first side is on par with everyone on the other side constantly... even without winning everything... he gets far, beats many of them and is never outclassed

If one guy was dominating kespa and then went to foreign tournaments and did well... then sure... but everyone goes up and down in korea and then in foreign they dont do much... so clear dominator in one side while being very good on the other... against mix of many top players on one side that dont really do too good in "weaker" scene

I like Taeja, but still, i think im pretty objective with this...

pretty much agree with all of this . you can just look at tournaments from late 2013 to see that taeja rarely get stomped by kespa players . the two example that are on my mind are dear and pigbb

$O$

Taeja is like 5-5 against SoS.

The_Templar

your Country52798 Posts

July 20 2014 09:26 GMT

#1225

Read the last ~30 pages. I am disappointed in you guys. TaeJa is a total beast and he beat very legitimate and strong players all the way to the finals (with the exception of Jim). He definitely did not cheat.

I'm very happy that he won though

Jer99

Canada8159 Posts

July 20 2014 10:35 GMT

#1226

On July 20 2014 18:26 The_Templar wrote:
Read the last ~30 pages. I am disappointed in you guys. TaeJa is a total beast and he beat very legitimate and strong players all the way to the finals (with the exception of Jim). He definitely did not cheat.

I'm very happy that he won though

Haters gonna hate, TaeJa #1

Xoronius

Germany6362 Posts

July 20 2014 11:42 GMT

#1227

Calm down a bit please. Taeja obviously can't win a GSL, if he doesn't compete in one, but he at least has the possibility to be the best player in the world. The determination of being that world-best player just got a little more complicated with the region split as you have no centralized tourney, who everyone plays in, anymore (which you had with 2010-2012 GSL). Ofc. GSL is still the hardest tournament in the world. Noone would ever question that. The question is only, how much this best tournament in the world is worth compared to multiple smaller ones.

Is the GSL champion the best player in the world? Well, he is a contender for that title, but there is the theoretical case, that someone else is better. Can this be proven? Probably not, until that someone has a consistent edge over the GSL champion. Taeja beating Zest is not enough to make him better than Zest (the same way, Taeja is probably still a better player than pigbaby and TRUE is probably still a better player than Snute). But it gives him a point against Zest, which can not simply be ignored either. The same way, that it can't be ignored, that Taeja won 3 tournaments in the last 3 months.

Also keep in mind, that the GSL has a very unstable distribution of power at the moment. The three last tournaments had 3 different winners (talking about COde S) with none of them reaching the finals twice (things would be much clearer, if soO had won at least one of his final appereances). If we would have a GSL domination like Mvps in 2011, foreign tournaments wouldn't matter.

To end my thoughts about that, I'd say, that there are 4 current contenders for the worlds best player atm: Classic (current GSL champion, unbeaten since than in box), Zest (double korean champion), soO (consistent GSL finalist) and Taeja (consistent tourney winner, beating GSL koreans). As long as the first three don't travel abroad more, we can't know, who the best player in the world might be. If Classic attends a few tournaments and wins them, the question is answered. If Zest repeats his loss a few more times, he might fall out of the competetors. Currently we know nothing, we just can suspect, who might have a slight edge over the rest.

Also, damn it, why did I oversleep and miss a 4.-3 TvZ finals?

FuRong

New Zealand3089 Posts

July 20 2014 13:06 GMT

#1228

That was a truly outstanding final, one of the highest level and most entertaining TvZ series of the year. Props to both players.

I'm not usually a huge Taeja fan, but I was rooting for him in the finals, even if just for the fact that he's Terran.

Although winning another tournament may not seem like a big deal for Taeja, I think he proved a lot with this win. The competition was tougher than most of the other European titles he has won, with several top GSL and Kespa players.

Also, he showed incredible mental strength to come back after losing game three and maintain such a high level of play throughout the finals.

Doodsmack

United States7224 Posts

July 20 2014 13:12 GMT

#1229

Just look at the number of one-time GSL champs and you will see the volatility that is SC2. No one would argue that any one of them has a claim to best player in the world. So would one GSL victory make Taeja the best player in the world? Well it's not an air-tight argument to say the least.

Thax

Belgium1060 Posts

July 20 2014 13:45 GMT

#1230

On July 20 2014 15:24 stuchiu wrote:

Show nested quote +

No. WCS points are awarded randomly. Some random local lan in Denmark had the same WCS points as this IEM.

And Kespa players are trapped and locked in Korea and have almost no access to any other WCS points.

1) No, they aren't and no it didn't.

http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/about#points-and-prize
Your event needs to meet certain conditions before it can be recognized as a WCS Global Event and dole out WCS points. Copenhagen Games, the "random local lan" you're most likely referring to, is about as local and random as, say, Lone Star Clash and so has the same WCS points pool: 1800 total and 300 going to the winner. Which is a good chunk less than half the 4000/750 of IEM.

2) And that's the Korean scene's and Kespa's own responsibility. If you don't send your players out to international events or organize your own events to compensate you shouldn't be surprised when you aren't as represented as you would like on the international scene.

If, for example, every Kespa team would organize their own Copenhagen Games level WCS Global Event tournament there would be a lot more points attainable by Kespa players.

StarcraftMan

Canada507 Posts

July 20 2014 14:36 GMT

#1231

Wow, so many dumb conspiracy theories about game 6. Since all of the conspiracy nuts weren't at the venue, here are a few things you should know:

1) The Chinese cast was broadcast to the crowd. Unless you go out of your way to learn all the names of the units in Mandarin, you would have no idea what the casters are talking about. And even if you did learn all the names of the units in Mandarin, you still probably wouldn't know what the casters are talking about as Mandarin is a tone sensitive language and it takes a trained listener to pick out the tones.

2) Apollo and Kalearis were casting backstage. It's impossible to hear their casting from backstage from the front stage. To give you an idea of how loud the venue was, I stood within 5 feet of the interview couch and I couldn't hear a single word during the interviews. There is no way Taeja could hear Apollo and Kalearis who were 25 feet away, with the huge stage wall to block out the sound.

3) Apollo and Kaelaris aren't visible from the front stage at all. Like I said, there is the main stage wall in blue that separates the front stage from the back. Also, the booth faces forward so Taeja isn't even facing the direction of Apollo and Kalearis even if the stage wall didn't exist.

twoliveanddie

United States2049 Posts

July 20 2014 23:49 GMT

#1232

go teamliquid, another win in the books

stuchiu

Fiddler's Green42661 Posts

July 21 2014 01:59 GMT

#1233

I'm very happy you weren't here to curse him.

cpower

228 Posts

July 21 2014 02:33 GMT

#1234

On July 20 2014 20:42 Xoronius wrote:
Calm down a bit please. Taeja obviously can't win a GSL, if he doesn't compete in one, but he at least has the possibility to be the best player in the world. The determination of being that world-best player just got a little more complicated with the region split as you have no centralized tourney, who everyone plays in, anymore (which you had with 2010-2012 GSL). Ofc. GSL is still the hardest tournament in the world. Noone would ever question that. The question is only, how much this best tournament in the world is worth compared to multiple smaller ones.

Is the GSL champion the best player in the world? Well, he is a contender for that title, but there is the theoretical case, that someone else is better. Can this be proven? Probably not, until that someone has a consistent edge over the GSL champion. Taeja beating Zest is not enough to make him better than Zest (the same way, Taeja is probably still a better player than pigbaby and TRUE is probably still a better player than Snute). But it gives him a point against Zest, which can not simply be ignored either. The same way, that it can't be ignored, that Taeja won 3 tournaments in the last 3 months.

Also keep in mind, that the GSL has a very unstable distribution of power at the moment. The three last tournaments had 3 different winners (talking about COde S) with none of them reaching the finals twice (things would be much clearer, if soO had won at least one of his final appereances). If we would have a GSL domination like Mvps in 2011, foreign tournaments wouldn't matter.

To end my thoughts about that, I'd say, that there are 4 current contenders for the worlds best player atm: Classic (current GSL champion, unbeaten since than in box), Zest (double korean champion), soO (consistent GSL finalist) and Taeja (consistent tourney winner, beating GSL koreans). As long as the first three don't travel abroad more, we can't know, who the best player in the world might be. If Classic attends a few tournaments and wins them, the question is answered. If Zest repeats his loss a few more times, he might fall out of the competetors. Currently we know nothing, we just can suspect, who might have a slight edge over the rest.

Also, damn it, why did I oversleep and miss a 4.-3 TvZ finals?

Overall a good analysis. SC2 is too volatile and not very tolerant to mistakes which lead to a lot of champions. Zest was good 2 months ago and he starts to show slumps just like we are seeing right now. Taeja on the other hand, has been consistent in the foreign scene but played against most of the lesser players on the championship road. For example, Taeja dominated Zest and won a close battle against solar, which two are codeS level players. If Taeja was playing GSL, he would have to face at least 8 to 10 similar level of players before winning the crown. The chance of winning a GSL would be much much harder. I think Taeja is at least a codeS top 8 player, but whether or not he is the best player in the world is not easy to tell. I would say he is top 5 in the world, with another 4 players from GSL.

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