On July 20 2014 15:18 Kimb3r wrote: It is so easy: As long as you don't have an international, consistent league, like in football for example the Champions League, you will never be able to determine the best player at least for a season.
Or the system which existed back in BW days - you could easily determine that Flash or JD were the best, because everytime the best players in the world played, all had the same chances to qualify etc etc and in the end the same, best players won.
Isnt that almost exactly what Blizzcon is?
No. WCS points are awarded randomly. Some random local lan in Denmark had the same WCS points as this IEM.
And Kespa players are trapped and locked in Korea and have almost no access to any other WCS points.
On July 20 2014 15:18 Kimb3r wrote: It is so easy: As long as you don't have an international, consistent league, like in football for example the Champions League, you will never be able to determine the best player at least for a season.
Or the system which existed back in BW days - you could easily determine that Flash or JD were the best, because everytime the best players in the world played, all had the same chances to qualify etc etc and in the end the same, best players won.
Isnt that almost exactly what Blizzcon is?
Some random local lan in Denmark had the same WCS points as this IEM.
On July 20 2014 15:01 ElMeanYo wrote: Still any debate on whether Taeja is the best Terran?
Give me your arguments.
Nope. He's the best
Maru is better! Give him the chance playing in DHs, HSCs and IEMs and he would be swimming in money already.
Just like Innovation right? Oh wait.
All 3 are amazing Terrans, but you cant just assume Maru would win in these environments just because you want to believe.
I just want to answer to this never-ending "who is the best terran"-talk. It makes so much fun, discussing a whole life about the same thing, doesn't it? TaeJa, Maru, Bbyong, Polt, INoVation Top5 currently maybe, I would lay my head out of the window for that, but picking one of them is just silly.
MKP was best Terran in the world before his break!
Hahahahahahahahajajahahahahaha
There was a period where he was the best Terran in the world (short period) but right before his break he was bad
Yea, did you read the part where I said "before his break"?
On July 20 2014 15:18 Kimb3r wrote: It is so easy: As long as you don't have an international, consistent league, like in football for example the Champions League, you will never be able to determine the best player at least for a season.
Or the system which existed back in BW days - you could easily determine that Flash or JD were the best, because everytime the best players in the world played, all had the same chances to qualify etc etc and in the end the same, best players won.
Isnt that almost exactly what Blizzcon is?
No because you buy yourself into Blizzcon IMO. Lots of players fly around the world and compete in as many tournaments as possible in order to get WCS Points, even though they may have never won a premier tournament before.
On July 20 2014 15:18 Kimb3r wrote: It is so easy: As long as you don't have an international, consistent league, like in football for example the Champions League, you will never be able to determine the best player at least for a season.
Or the system which existed back in BW days - you could easily determine that Flash or JD were the best, because everytime the best players in the world played, all had the same chances to qualify etc etc and in the end the same, best players won.
Isnt that almost exactly what Blizzcon is?
No. WCS points are awarded randomly. Some random local lan in Denmark had the same WCS points as this IEM.
And Kespa players are trapped and locked in Korea and have almost no access to any other WCS points.
hahah had no idea about that Denmark LAN.
Well the Kespa players are in the same boat as the Premier League teams, which everyone says is a clearly stronger league than the rest of the world - but only a couple can qualify for the Champions League.
Plus, KeSPA players have been released to play in weekend tournaments, and haven't won them.
Yes its an advantage being able to go to these tournaments, but it doesnt mean they would win if they went (or place high enough to gain a significant amount of points) Roro/Flash and recently Zest are good examples of really strong players that haven't gathered points from this method.
On July 20 2014 15:18 Kimb3r wrote: It is so easy: As long as you don't have an international, consistent league, like in football for example the Champions League, you will never be able to determine the best player at least for a season.
Or the system which existed back in BW days - you could easily determine that Flash or JD were the best, because everytime the best players in the world played, all had the same chances to qualify etc etc and in the end the same, best players won.
Isnt that almost exactly what Blizzcon is?
No. WCS points are awarded randomly. Some random local lan in Denmark had the same WCS points as this IEM.
And Kespa players are trapped and locked in Korea and have almost no access to any other WCS points.
On July 20 2014 15:01 ElMeanYo wrote: Still any debate on whether Taeja is the best Terran?
Give me your arguments.
Nope. He's the best
Maru is better! Give him the chance playing in DHs, HSCs and IEMs and he would be swimming in money already.
Until I see him do it, Taeja is the best. No one wins more. He's the best. SC2 is the only "sport" where winning the most doesn't mean being the best to a large part of the fan base. Makes zero sense to me.
Do you actually watch other sports?
No one in their right mind would say the Rangers were the second best NHL team this season. There is such a thing known as "extenuating circumstances." Just because the Rangers won the weaker Eastern conference doesn't mean they're good. It means they won the weaker Eastern conference.
Yes.
Ok, maybe I was too general. Lets make it 1v1 sports
Go.
So of the big sports, we're limited to... tennis and boxing/MMA? That's it? That's not a huge sample size to legitimate find trends in.
Even so, like someone else said earlier, a heavyweight boxer might beat down lightweights, but still be the worst in his own category. There's a more concrete system in place there than in SC2 (where who plays who outside of Korea is pretty arbitrary), but it's the same thing. Just because someone won something doesn't make them that great.
Look at Pigbaby flying out and having one great tournament. What does it really mean to have one great tournament? Parting hasn't won anything this year, you're telling me Pigbaby is better than Parting? Obviously not. Parting's #8 places in Code S are far more meaningful than Pigbaby's #1.
On July 20 2014 15:01 ElMeanYo wrote: Still any debate on whether Taeja is the best Terran?
Give me your arguments.
Nope. He's the best
Maru is better! Give him the chance playing in DHs, HSCs and IEMs and he would be swimming in money already.
Just like Innovation right? Oh wait.
All 3 are amazing Terrans, but you cant just assume Maru would win in these environments just because you want to believe.
I just want to answer to this never-ending "who is the best terran"-talk. It makes so much fun, discussing a whole life about the same thing, doesn't it? TaeJa, Maru, Bbyong, Polt, INoVation Top5 currently maybe, I would lay my head out of the window for that, but picking one of them is just silly.
MKP was best Terran in the world before his break!
Hahahahahahahahajajahahahahaha
There was a period where he was the best Terran in the world (short period) but right before his break he was bad
Yea, did you read the part where I said "before his break"?
Well "before his break" can be extended to cover his entire sc2 career so I assumed you meant like right before his break
On July 20 2014 15:01 ElMeanYo wrote: Still any debate on whether Taeja is the best Terran?
Give me your arguments.
They are already spewing the "weekend tournaments dont count" mentality - its fucking classic.
I don't get this. I'm a zerg player and I love Solar but I have to tip my hat to Taeja. He's damn incredible.
The moment that made it for me was when some banes were charging a bunker defending his natural, and he unloaded them, targeted them down and got back into the bunker to finish the rest off. All while macroing and attacking Solar in 2 different places. I mean, damn... what can you do as Zerg vs that skill.
Those Marines looked like they were action movie heroes. Not even exaggerating. The reaction time on Taeja for getting them out, popping those Banes, and getting them back in was Hollywood pro.
It's those kind of cute movements that makes Taeja my favorite player ever, I'm not gonna say that he's the best in the world, but he's just my personal favorite, ever. His micro is beautiful and full of those little flashy details. Those shift-cued baneling snipes were awesome too, they require such a precise timing. His micro for me is like when in football they called the Brasilian style the "jogo bonito", a very flashy style to watch that is damn effective too.
I will never forget some of his micro back on summer 2012, specially against zerg, today more than ever
On July 20 2014 15:01 ElMeanYo wrote: Still any debate on whether Taeja is the best Terran?
Give me your arguments.
Nope. He's the best
Maru is better! Give him the chance playing in DHs, HSCs and IEMs and he would be swimming in money already.
Until I see him do it, Taeja is the best. No one wins more. He's the best. SC2 is the only "sport" where winning the most doesn't mean being the best to a large part of the fan base. Makes zero sense to me.
Do you actually watch other sports?
No one in their right mind would say the Rangers were the second best NHL team this season. There is such a thing known as "extenuating circumstances." Just because the Rangers won the weaker Eastern conference doesn't mean they're good. It means they won the weaker Eastern conference.
Yes.
Ok, maybe I was too general. Lets make it 1v1 sports
Go.
...Look at Pigbaby flying out and having one great tournament. What does it really mean to have one great tournament? Parting hasn't won anything this year, you're telling me Pigbaby is better than Parting? Obviously not. Parting's #8 places in Code S are far more meaningful than Pigbaby's #1...
Youre right, but were talking about Taeja who is the epitome of consistency at these tournaments.
I see what youre getting at, but the line is a lot more difficult to define than people like to admit when it comes to Taeja and not people like Dreamhack Spoiler -> + Show Spoiler +
Sacsri.
and for the record, the bolded people above are only a minority, but a vocal one.
On July 20 2014 15:33 SSVnormandy wrote: there are some highly desillusional gsl fanboys here.
They will shut up for now, but wait for a couple of months before they crawl out of their caves to chant "Taaeeeja can't compete with top level Code S Koreans!! " I remember nobody even daring to question Taeja's level of play after he 2-1'd innovation and 3-0'd Rain last year at the season finals, but they ALWAYS come back lol
On July 20 2014 15:18 Kimb3r wrote: It is so easy: As long as you don't have an international, consistent league, like in football for example the Champions League, you will never be able to determine the best player at least for a season.
Or the system which existed back in BW days - you could easily determine that Flash or JD were the best, because everytime the best players in the world played, all had the same chances to qualify etc etc and in the end the same, best players won.
Isnt that almost exactly what Blizzcon is?
No. WCS points are awarded randomly. Some random local lan in Denmark had the same WCS points as this IEM.
And Kespa players are trapped and locked in Korea and have almost no access to any other WCS points.
hahah had no idea about that Denmark LAN.
Well the Kespa players are in the same boat as the Premier League teams, which everyone says is a clearly stronger league than the rest of the world - but only a couple can qualify for the Champions League.
Plus, KeSPA players have been released to play in weekend tournaments, and haven't won them.
Yes its an advantage being able to go to these tournaments, but it doesnt mean they would win if they went (or place high enough to gain a significant amount of points) Roro/Flash and recently Zest are good examples of really strong players that haven't gathered points from this method.
Its the difference between being Jaedong and going to almost all of them and being TY and just going to DH that one time. The more times you go the more likely you win.
On July 20 2014 15:18 Kimb3r wrote: It is so easy: As long as you don't have an international, consistent league, like in football for example the Champions League, you will never be able to determine the best player at least for a season.
Or the system which existed back in BW days - you could easily determine that Flash or JD were the best, because everytime the best players in the world played, all had the same chances to qualify etc etc and in the end the same, best players won.
Isnt that almost exactly what Blizzcon is?
No. WCS points are awarded randomly. Some random local lan in Denmark had the same WCS points as this IEM.
And Kespa players are trapped and locked in Korea and have almost no access to any other WCS points.
hahah had no idea about that Denmark LAN.
Well the Kespa players are in the same boat as the Premier League teams, which everyone says is a clearly stronger league than the rest of the world - but only a couple can qualify for the Champions League.
Plus, KeSPA players have been released to play in weekend tournaments, and haven't won them.
Yes its an advantage being able to go to these tournaments, but it doesnt mean they would win if they went (or place high enough to gain a significant amount of points) Roro/Flash and recently Zest are good examples of really strong players that haven't gathered points from this method.
Its the difference between being Jaedong and going to almost all of them and being TY and just going to DH that one time. The more times you go the more likely you get secondwin.
On July 20 2014 15:18 Kimb3r wrote: It is so easy: As long as you don't have an international, consistent league, like in football for example the Champions League, you will never be able to determine the best player at least for a season.
Or the system which existed back in BW days - you could easily determine that Flash or JD were the best, because everytime the best players in the world played, all had the same chances to qualify etc etc and in the end the same, best players won.
Isnt that almost exactly what Blizzcon is?
No. WCS points are awarded randomly. Some random local lan in Denmark had the same WCS points as this IEM.
And Kespa players are trapped and locked in Korea and have almost no access to any other WCS points.
wait, for real?
Yea. I remember Snute and Bunny complaining about it. Or it might have been some other EU player.
On July 20 2014 15:18 Kimb3r wrote: It is so easy: As long as you don't have an international, consistent league, like in football for example the Champions League, you will never be able to determine the best player at least for a season.
Or the system which existed back in BW days - you could easily determine that Flash or JD were the best, because everytime the best players in the world played, all had the same chances to qualify etc etc and in the end the same, best players won.
Isnt that almost exactly what Blizzcon is?
No. WCS points are awarded randomly. Some random local lan in Denmark had the same WCS points as this IEM.
And Kespa players are trapped and locked in Korea and have almost no access to any other WCS points.
hahah had no idea about that Denmark LAN.
Well the Kespa players are in the same boat as the Premier League teams, which everyone says is a clearly stronger league than the rest of the world - but only a couple can qualify for the Champions League.
Plus, KeSPA players have been released to play in weekend tournaments, and haven't won them.
Yes its an advantage being able to go to these tournaments, but it doesnt mean they would win if they went (or place high enough to gain a significant amount of points) Roro/Flash and recently Zest are good examples of really strong players that haven't gathered points from this method.
Its the difference between being Jaedong and going to almost all of them and being TY and just going to DH that one time. The more times you go the more likely you get second win.
On July 20 2014 15:01 ElMeanYo wrote: Still any debate on whether Taeja is the best Terran?
Give me your arguments.
Nope. He's the best
Maru is better! Give him the chance playing in DHs, HSCs and IEMs and he would be swimming in money already.
Until I see him do it, Taeja is the best. No one wins more. He's the best. SC2 is the only "sport" where winning the most doesn't mean being the best to a large part of the fan base. Makes zero sense to me.
Do you actually watch other sports?
No one in their right mind would say the Rangers were the second best NHL team this season. There is such a thing known as "extenuating circumstances." Just because the Rangers won the weaker Eastern conference doesn't mean they're good. It means they won the weaker Eastern conference.
Yes.
Ok, maybe I was too general. Lets make it 1v1 sports
Go.
So of the big sports, we're limited to... tennis and boxing/MMA? That's it? That's not a huge sample size to legitimate find trends in.
Even so, like someone else said earlier, a heavyweight boxer might beat down lightweights, but still be the worst in his own category. There's a more concrete system in place there than in SC2 (where who plays who outside of Korea is pretty arbitrary), but it's the same thing. Just because someone won something doesn't make them that great.
Look at Pigbaby flying out and having one great tournament. What does it really mean to have one great tournament? Parting hasn't won anything this year, you're telling me Pigbaby is better than Parting? Obviously not. Parting's #8 places in Code S are far more meaningful than Pigbaby's #1.
Well SC2 is 1v1 so I had to limit it to avoid your previous example where teams win. Though there are truly legendary players that transcend the team aspect but lets not get into that.
I don't like the Pigbaby example because I'm not in anyway saying that Taeja is the best just because of this tournament. This is just icing on the cake. I'm saying he's the best because he has now won 11 premiers. He wins the most in a sport where only his skill determines his fate
On July 20 2014 15:01 ElMeanYo wrote: Still any debate on whether Taeja is the best Terran?
Give me your arguments.
Nope. He's the best
Maru is better! Give him the chance playing in DHs, HSCs and IEMs and he would be swimming in money already.
Until I see him do it, Taeja is the best. No one wins more. He's the best. SC2 is the only "sport" where winning the most doesn't mean being the best to a large part of the fan base. Makes zero sense to me.
Do you actually watch other sports?
No one in their right mind would say the Rangers were the second best NHL team this season. There is such a thing known as "extenuating circumstances." Just because the Rangers won the weaker Eastern conference doesn't mean they're good. It means they won the weaker Eastern conference.
Yes.
Ok, maybe I was too general. Lets make it 1v1 sports
Go.
Look at Pigbaby flying out and having one great tournament. What does it really mean to have one great tournament? Parting hasn't won anything this year, you're telling me Pigbaby is better than Parting? Obviously not. Parting's #8 places in Code S are far more meaningful than Pigbaby's #1.
Youre right, but were talking about Taeja who is the epitome of consistency at these tournaments.
I see what youre getting at, but the line is a lot more difficult to define than people like to admit when it comes to Taeja and not people like Dreamhack Spoiler -> + Show Spoiler +
Sacsri.
and for the record, the bolded people above are only a minority, but a vocal one.
I think Taeja's a top 3 Terran for sure. Anyone who puts him below top 5 is delusional. But simplifying tournament wins in SC2 will get us nowhere. Blizzcon does NOTHING for most of the best SC2 players. Check the predictor right now, soO is on the cut-off for getting in after three consecutive GSL second places, while MC is sitting happy at #1. Is MC really the #1 player in the world? He's not even the #1 Protoss in my eyes. I wouldn't even put him in top 5!
On July 20 2014 15:01 ElMeanYo wrote: Still any debate on whether Taeja is the best Terran?
Give me your arguments.
Nope. He's the best
Maru is better! Give him the chance playing in DHs, HSCs and IEMs and he would be swimming in money already.
Until I see him do it, Taeja is the best. No one wins more. He's the best. SC2 is the only "sport" where winning the most doesn't mean being the best to a large part of the fan base. Makes zero sense to me.
Do you actually watch other sports?
No one in their right mind would say the Rangers were the second best NHL team this season. There is such a thing known as "extenuating circumstances." Just because the Rangers won the weaker Eastern conference doesn't mean they're good. It means they won the weaker Eastern conference.
Yes.
Ok, maybe I was too general. Lets make it 1v1 sports
Go.
So of the big sports, we're limited to... tennis and boxing/MMA? That's it? That's not a huge sample size to legitimate find trends in.
Even so, like someone else said earlier, a heavyweight boxer might beat down lightweights, but still be the worst in his own category. There's a more concrete system in place there than in SC2 (where who plays who outside of Korea is pretty arbitrary), but it's the same thing. Just because someone won something doesn't make them that great.
Look at Pigbaby flying out and having one great tournament. What does it really mean to have one great tournament? Parting hasn't won anything this year, you're telling me Pigbaby is better than Parting? Obviously not. Parting's #8 places in Code S are far more meaningful than Pigbaby's #1.
Well SC2 is 1v1 so I had to limit it to avoid your previous example where teams win. Though there are truly legendary players that transcend the team aspect but lets not get into that.
I don't like the Pigbaby example because I'm not in anyway saying that Taeja is the best just because of this tournament. This is just icing on the cake. I'm saying he's the best because he has now won 11 premiers. He wins the most in a sport where only his skill determines his fate
fixed some spelling...
I don't disagree with you about Taeja. I think he's scary consistent. But I'll be much happier judging his quality as a player from the content of his games rather than the result. I know that's an approach a lot of people struggle with... but I believe that SC like any sport should take advantage of inherent skill, and inherent skill shines through regardless of balance.
On July 20 2014 15:18 Kimb3r wrote: It is so easy: As long as you don't have an international, consistent league, like in football for example the Champions League, you will never be able to determine the best player at least for a season.
Or the system which existed back in BW days - you could easily determine that Flash or JD were the best, because everytime the best players in the world played, all had the same chances to qualify etc etc and in the end the same, best players won.
Isnt that almost exactly what Blizzcon is?
No. WCS points are awarded randomly. Some random local lan in Denmark had the same WCS points as this IEM.
And Kespa players are trapped and locked in Korea and have almost no access to any other WCS points.
hahah had no idea about that Denmark LAN.
Well the Kespa players are in the same boat as the Premier League teams, which everyone says is a clearly stronger league than the rest of the world - but only a couple can qualify for the Champions League.
Plus, KeSPA players have been released to play in weekend tournaments, and haven't won them.
Yes its an advantage being able to go to these tournaments, but it doesnt mean they would win if they went (or place high enough to gain a significant amount of points) Roro/Flash and recently Zest are good examples of really strong players that haven't gathered points from this method.
Its the difference between being Jaedong and going to almost all of them and being TY and just going to DH that one time. The more times you go the more likely you get second win.
Fixed that for you!
Thanks for getting my back.
Youre welcome <3 - Gotta stir the Dongers when the opportunity presents itself
But simplifying tournament wins in SC2 will get us nowhere. Blizzcon does NOTHING for most of the best SC2 players. Check the predictor right now, soO is on the cut-off for getting in after three consecutive GSL second places, while MC is sitting happy at #1. Is MC really the #1 player in the world? He's not even the #1 Protoss in my eyes. I wouldn't even put him in top 5!
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