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On March 07 2014 23:28 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 23:04 Tibbroar wrote:On March 07 2014 22:52 Ragnarork wrote:On March 07 2014 22:46 Morbidius wrote:On March 07 2014 22:38 royalroadweed wrote:On March 07 2014 22:34 ArTiFaKs wrote:
I've been saying for awhile now that make the MsC vision radius 6 instead of 9. That way it's 1 range more than widow mine range, giving them chances to spot for Widow mines but one slight control mistake and it will be hit by widow mine. This increases skill needed to control, also gives Marines much better chance of sniping it at some point.
The major change: Make TimeWarp an upgrade at the Twilight Council, cost 150/150 same as Blink. This would force Protoss to either get Blink and go, or slow down the timing of the all-in or aggressive build having to wait for TimeWarp to research as well if you want to have your build included in the attack (since both are at the TC they can't both be upgraded at one time either) This would make the early timings much weaker, while keeping the defensive integrity of the MsC early game so as to not screw up the other matchups (PvP mostly), as well as limit the offensive utility so early on. This would also nerf Blink without actually having to mess around with Blink itself, because I think everyone can agree that Blink itself isn't the problem, it's the MsC and it's support utility along with the Blink Stalkers so early on that is the problem. This would solve that problem I think.
I think these 2 nerfs would be sufficient to where it wouldn't be almost an automatic win on these kinds of maps, while also not severely nerfing Protoss in the later stages of the game or defensively early on. Just a suggestion feel free to criticize or make adjustments if you are more qualified. Apparently 9 vision is "BLIND". Didn't you get the memo? And Blink allin is ''useless'', ''unviable'' and a ''build for lower leagues only'' after the nerf. Funny how people think a nerf on a strat should kill it. People, a successful balance update.... balances things, it doesn't necessarily have to kill it! Oh and it's not been that much since the patch, let's not go crazy there too fast please. As much as I would usually agree with the idea of taking time to see if a patch worked, I feel like in this specific case the changes should be noticeable almost instantly as they specifically targeted one aspect of a build that has been around for ages. I don't particularly like his suggestion of nerfing the vision range again, but putting timewarp as an upgrade at the TC seems interesting enough to at least warrant giving it a run on a test map. As far as I can tell, he's right in that it nerfs blink timings and not much else, and while it doesn't cripple them, it removes the edge that causes it to be so overly dangerous. Either forcing the timing to come later allowing the terran more time to prepare, or removing timewarp from the occasion allowing the terran more freedom to hold the attack with superior control. Yeah well, we have that kind of statements almost every patch, so, yeah... Then again, a good balance change should not kill it but reduce its efficiency. We've seen way too few games with it so far. And we're trying to draw conclusions ? I think it's wrong. That doesn't mean the balance is totally right, but that surely doesn't mean it's wrong/not enough either. We'll need to see more of this. And about that Time Warp proposal, I would express my opinion carefully as I'm not qualified to talk about pro-level balance, but I fear that timewarp at the TC could leave a critical hole in the protoss early defense toolkit (then again, I don't play protoss that much, so I wouldn't really know). Balancing is really hard, and should not be taken, talked lightly, and shouldn't be discussed in the immediate aftermath of a loss that disappoint fans anyway, as it clearly shows a tendency to drop reason and pick up emotions as a discussion tool :D (not esp. talking about you, but that LR thread ended pretty badly in my opinion...) Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 23:17 Panozen wrote:On March 07 2014 23:10 Morbidius wrote:On March 07 2014 23:04 Lecon wrote:On March 07 2014 22:56 Morbidius wrote:On March 07 2014 22:52 Ragnarork wrote:On March 07 2014 22:46 Morbidius wrote:On March 07 2014 22:38 royalroadweed wrote:On March 07 2014 22:34 ArTiFaKs wrote:
I've been saying for awhile now that make the MsC vision radius 6 instead of 9. That way it's 1 range more than widow mine range, giving them chances to spot for Widow mines but one slight control mistake and it will be hit by widow mine. This increases skill needed to control, also gives Marines much better chance of sniping it at some point.
The major change: Make TimeWarp an upgrade at the Twilight Council, cost 150/150 same as Blink. This would force Protoss to either get Blink and go, or slow down the timing of the all-in or aggressive build having to wait for TimeWarp to research as well if you want to have your build included in the attack (since both are at the TC they can't both be upgraded at one time either) This would make the early timings much weaker, while keeping the defensive integrity of the MsC early game so as to not screw up the other matchups (PvP mostly), as well as limit the offensive utility so early on. This would also nerf Blink without actually having to mess around with Blink itself, because I think everyone can agree that Blink itself isn't the problem, it's the MsC and it's support utility along with the Blink Stalkers so early on that is the problem. This would solve that problem I think.
I think these 2 nerfs would be sufficient to where it wouldn't be almost an automatic win on these kinds of maps, while also not severely nerfing Protoss in the later stages of the game or defensively early on. Just a suggestion feel free to criticize or make adjustments if you are more qualified. Apparently 9 vision is "BLIND". Didn't you get the memo? And Blink allin is ''useless'', ''unviable'' and a ''build for lower leagues only'' after the nerf. Funny how people think a nerf on a strat should kill it. People, a successful balance update.... balances things, it doesn't necessarily have to kill it! Oh and it's not been that much since the patch, let's not go crazy there too fast please. I don't know, they seemed pretty intent on killing infestors and hellbats with the nerfs. They mostly suceeded. Don't forget ghost. Dear god that snipe nerf was awful (they didn't even test it), only thing they had to do was to change it to 45 damage -15 vs massive. They dont seem to like the ''small steps approach'' when it comes to terran. Bunker build time would like a word with you Hahahahahahahaha thanks for the laugh, good fellow. Indeed, the bunker build time has been a loooong story 
Agreed. We gotta wait a while and see some more games before we start talking about nerfing it again.
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On March 07 2014 22:36 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 22:34 hipo wrote:On March 07 2014 22:32 Shellshock wrote:On March 07 2014 22:31 royalroadweed wrote:On March 07 2014 22:26 Rollora wrote:On March 07 2014 22:24 royalroadweed wrote:On March 07 2014 22:22 Rollora wrote:On March 07 2014 22:21 hipo wrote:On March 07 2014 22:20 Rollora wrote:On March 07 2014 22:18 NovaMB wrote:
[quote]
Pls, he cant even beat China. oh right, we never saw a good player lose to a foreigner... like supernova never lost against scarlett, or MVP never lost to stephano... Btw never saw a Korean Pro losing to a non korean Terran. How so? Jaedong  oh really? Cool didn't know. when, who? Dayshi. So you answered like 50% of the question, now the tournament and time pls  And wow, it happened so often 1 time, really? Not like Naniwa, Socke, Dimaga, Scarlett or Stephano did that more often by their own than all foreigner Terrans together. Oh and I am talking macrogames, not cheese btw Dayshi beat the dong in a bo3 with macro games in that tournament that Tod hosted that ended with a PvP finals. Jaedong didn't play that well while dayshi macro was amazing. theognis also beat Jaedong in macro games in WCS AM S1 last year Demuslim too, isn't it? kk thx I remember now And few years back The Spoon Terran won a Tourney even
I am also pretty sure that Life lost to Sjow, was it Dreamhack last year?
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On March 07 2014 22:40 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 22:13 imrusty269 wrote:
On one hand you have 15 yo Life who refuses to play Daedalus point against protoss, one the other you have guys like herO. That's his problem, no one else is not going to abuse whatever advantage they have, it's silly not to, let blizzard fix issues if there are any.
Of course it's his problem for not really abusing BL/Infestor (or Swarmhosts, or Daedalus) while everyone else does. But it kinda makes him a player I enjoy watching.
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On March 07 2014 22:28 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 22:26 Rollora wrote:On March 07 2014 22:24 royalroadweed wrote:On March 07 2014 22:22 Rollora wrote:On March 07 2014 22:21 hipo wrote:On March 07 2014 22:20 Rollora wrote:On March 07 2014 22:18 NovaMB wrote:On March 07 2014 22:18 Rollora wrote:On March 07 2014 22:17 Jer99 wrote:
Now we know who the best hero is the one who recently won IEM ofc Pls, he cant even beat China. oh right, we never saw a good player lose to a foreigner... like supernova never lost against scarlett, or MVP never lost to stephano... Btw never saw a Korean Pro losing to a non korean Terran. How so? Jaedong oh really? Cool didn't know. when, who? Dayshi. So you answered like 50% of the question, now the tournament and time pls And wow, it happened so often 1 time, really? Not like Naniwa, Socke, Dimaga, Scarlett or Stephano did that more often by their own than all foreigner Terrans together. Oh and I am talking macrogames, not cheese btw Theres Jinro, but he was nothing but a 2raxer after 2010.
Oo first 2 code S ?!
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soO Stong! Ain't no fluke
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bbyong lost his chance to advance after he failed vs soo :/
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Rofl, scarlett is better than supernova. If she lost it would be a slight upset.
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On March 07 2014 23:03 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 22:56 Morbidius wrote:On March 07 2014 22:52 Ragnarork wrote:On March 07 2014 22:46 Morbidius wrote:On March 07 2014 22:38 royalroadweed wrote:On March 07 2014 22:34 ArTiFaKs wrote:
I've been saying for awhile now that make the MsC vision radius 6 instead of 9. That way it's 1 range more than widow mine range, giving them chances to spot for Widow mines but one slight control mistake and it will be hit by widow mine. This increases skill needed to control, also gives Marines much better chance of sniping it at some point.
The major change: Make TimeWarp an upgrade at the Twilight Council, cost 150/150 same as Blink. This would force Protoss to either get Blink and go, or slow down the timing of the all-in or aggressive build having to wait for TimeWarp to research as well if you want to have your build included in the attack (since both are at the TC they can't both be upgraded at one time either) This would make the early timings much weaker, while keeping the defensive integrity of the MsC early game so as to not screw up the other matchups (PvP mostly), as well as limit the offensive utility so early on. This would also nerf Blink without actually having to mess around with Blink itself, because I think everyone can agree that Blink itself isn't the problem, it's the MsC and it's support utility along with the Blink Stalkers so early on that is the problem. This would solve that problem I think.
I think these 2 nerfs would be sufficient to where it wouldn't be almost an automatic win on these kinds of maps, while also not severely nerfing Protoss in the later stages of the game or defensively early on. Just a suggestion feel free to criticize or make adjustments if you are more qualified. Apparently 9 vision is "BLIND". Didn't you get the memo? And Blink allin is ''useless'', ''unviable'' and a ''build for lower leagues only'' after the nerf. Funny how people think a nerf on a strat should kill it. People, a successful balance update.... balances things, it doesn't necessarily have to kill it! Oh and it's not been that much since the patch, let's not go crazy there too fast please. I don't know, they seemed pretty intent on killing infestors and hellbats with the nerfs. They mostly suceeded. Well, we see infestors in ZvP currently and they're not deemed "broken", they are an interesting options. We do see hellbates sometimes in mech composition (I belive in most of them but I've missed a few mech games recently so I wouldn't consider that 100% correct), so, well, they might have nerfed a bit too much, but they didn't kill the unit at all.. (And I didn't say every balance change is completely fine, but now at least it's way more tested/reviewed I think, so....)
Even though I think we need to see more games, it doesn't look promising that blink all-ins are still so strong. Yes, patches aren't intended to make a unit worthless. Even if the blink all-in wasn't viable at all, Protoss would still make stalkers to defend drops, kill Vikings, etc. I don't think we will see Protoss stop getting blink or stalkers if the all-ins were weaker.
For your example of the hellbat, although the hellbat is still used in some comps, you no longer see the early/mid game drops anymore. Same with stuff like ghost nerf, etc. But with the blink all in that was the target of the nerf, it doesn't seem like the affect is that big and early blink is still very powerful at the pro level.
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On March 07 2014 22:30 Green_25 wrote:
What exactly do people expect from Hero? For him to not try and win?
He's going to do whatever he thinks gives him the best chance of winning, same as every other pro player.
Disgusting that people are giving him shit.
I guess you weren't here for the PuMa 1-1-1 era or the 'cheeser'' era or the patch Zerg era? And even now, when zergs make Swarmhost, people start to complain. Some play style and the use of 'abusive' strats are not going to be popular.
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It was pretty much Bbyong's mistake that he got blunk.
He just didn't see it coming and did not have anything in place to defend. When was the last time you saw a blink timing kill stim research in a pro game?
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On March 08 2014 07:32 gobbledydook wrote:
It was pretty much Bbyong's mistake that he got blunk.
He just didn't see it coming and did not have anything in place to defend. When was the last time you saw a blink timing kill stim research in a pro game?
As many people have pointed out, he had already lost when stim was sniped, it didn't play a role in the outcome of the game.
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On March 08 2014 07:32 gobbledydook wrote:
It was pretty much Bbyong's mistake that he got blunk.
He just didn't see it coming and did not have anything in place to defend. When was the last time you saw a blink timing kill stim research in a pro game?
In addition to what v3 said, frost is absolutely atrocious for addon placement relative to blink, especially in those positions...
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that was pretty anticlimactic... bbyoung showed he is the better player and deserved to advance
only one terran left in this protossfest
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Woohoo herO! Yes!
T.T Trap. :-/
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EPT
