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On February 09 2014 21:13 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 21:07 Penev wrote:On February 09 2014 21:02 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 09 2014 20:56 Penev wrote:On February 09 2014 20:52 jekku wrote:
The thing with ppl saying maru screwed up, he may have a bit but heres the problem. Protoss can screw up early builds and still defend because the momma core overcharge. With terran it seems like if you make ONE mistake and its gg. Its not really a fair standard when one race can afford to make mistakes when another can't make ANY. I presume most people here do think that there are things wrong with the match up but this game isn't really a good one to adres balance problems because of the failed opening by Maru. Partings looked sharp today, Maru made (more) mistakes. The balance talk and talk about this game should be separate imo. This game was an excellent one actually. Check Maru's build. He goes hyper aggressive with 4 reapers while his opponent doesn't scout. If Terran doesn't scout 10 gate and opens wrongly - HE DIES. What is Partings response? Not control his MSC because not controlling it is perfectly fine, do some amove with his stalkers, and hey, he comes out ahead. Do you know how much Maru (HAD TO) invest in structures? He got a really fast ebay (during reaper 3/4, because of Orable) and had 4 Bunkers. He even cut upgrades at this point. Terran has to make soo many precautions in their builds that pretty much everything is inefficient in an optimal situation. How the game ended was just insult to injury with Parting going really dirty, but this game perfectly showed how limited Terran is in Build Orders while Protoss has a standard build order that deals with everything Terran can think of. In the sense of the "desperation opening" you actually have a point that this game can be used in a discussion about balance but the way a lot of people expressed their discontent just looked like baseless balance whining to me. People misintepret it because Blink > Terran. But in this game, Parting got a lead and finished Maru off. That is not the problem at all, that is perfectly fine! BUT, the way Parting got said lead is laughable. Calling this (or any recent PvT) a well earned win is idiotic and to Terran players downright insulting - because of how fragile and limited Terran is in the opening stages atm.
Yeah, Protoss early game defense needs to be weakened (without negatively affecting PvP).
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On February 09 2014 21:16 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 21:13 Doublemint wrote:On February 09 2014 21:07 one-one-one wrote:On February 09 2014 21:01 jekku wrote:On February 09 2014 21:00 one-one-one wrote:On February 09 2014 20:58 Parcelleus wrote:On February 09 2014 20:56 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 09 2014 20:52 jekku wrote:
The thing with ppl saying maru screwed up, he may have a bit but heres the problem. Protoss can screw up early builds and still defend because the momma core overcharge. With terran it seems like if you make ONE mistake and its gg. Its not really a fair standard when one race can afford to make mistakes when another can't make ANY.
User was warned for this post Care to share the reason of that warning 0.0? Lack of game knowledge. On TL.net you get banned/warned for telling the truth. I suspect that the mod didn't find him well articulated enough though. So ... double bad. Well I was told the first part was ok but the 2nd part got too balance whiney. Yeah, I get that the look down on balance whine in general, but is that an especially honorable stance to hold in these times? When the state of the game is this bad? As a mod you can always call "balance whine", but that is kind of a broad statement. This particular "whine" happened in a LR thread and came from a viewer ( you ) who had a less than enjoyable experience watching proleague. A balanced game goes hand in hand with a game that is enjoyable to watch for spectators. In the greater picture I think we should demand no less than to have both, which we don't right now. And as long as we don't have it people will complain. This is not a bad thing. Just don't be so quick in dismissing it as balance whine. People will complain about EVERYTHING...especially nitpicky SC2 viewers. Oh yeah. People are really nitpicking about the current state of TvP right now.
Carriers are a bit annoying, but just throw goliaths at them until they die. The early game is a bit fragile as well, but be fast on repairing the bunker until the tank pops. All in all, a quite exciting matchup!
edit: whoops this was a SC2 thread
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Netherlands5725 Posts
On February 09 2014 21:19 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 21:13 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 09 2014 21:07 Penev wrote:On February 09 2014 21:02 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 09 2014 20:56 Penev wrote:On February 09 2014 20:52 jekku wrote:
The thing with ppl saying maru screwed up, he may have a bit but heres the problem. Protoss can screw up early builds and still defend because the momma core overcharge. With terran it seems like if you make ONE mistake and its gg. Its not really a fair standard when one race can afford to make mistakes when another can't make ANY. I presume most people here do think that there are things wrong with the match up but this game isn't really a good one to adres balance problems because of the failed opening by Maru. Partings looked sharp today, Maru made (more) mistakes. The balance talk and talk about this game should be separate imo. This game was an excellent one actually. Check Maru's build. He goes hyper aggressive with 4 reapers while his opponent doesn't scout. If Terran doesn't scout 10 gate and opens wrongly - HE DIES. What is Partings response? Not control his MSC because not controlling it is perfectly fine, do some amove with his stalkers, and hey, he comes out ahead. Do you know how much Maru (HAD TO) invest in structures? He got a really fast ebay (during reaper 3/4, because of Orable) and had 4 Bunkers. He even cut upgrades at this point. Terran has to make soo many precautions in their builds that pretty much everything is inefficient in an optimal situation. How the game ended was just insult to injury with Parting going really dirty, but this game perfectly showed how limited Terran is in Build Orders while Protoss has a standard build order that deals with everything Terran can think of. In the sense of the "desperation opening" you actually have a point that this game can be used in a discussion about balance but the way a lot of people expressed their discontent just looked like baseless balance whining to me. People misintepret it because Blink > Terran. But in this game, Parting got a lead and finished Maru off. That is not the problem at all, that is perfectly fine! BUT, the way Parting got said lead is laughable. Calling this (or any recent PvT) a well earned win is idiotic and to Terran players downright insulting - because of how fragile and limited Terran is in the opening stages atm. Yeah, Protoss early game defense needs to be weakened (without negatively affecting PvP).
That's easy!
Screw the "racedefining" mechanic that is Warpgate and thus introduce defenders advantage in PvP and give room for MSC nerfs. Also, away with vision and movement speed :D
EDIT: To elaborate; keep warpgate, but make warpgates "worse (build time, no shields + energy on warpin, +25/25 cost) than regular gates.
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On February 09 2014 21:19 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 21:13 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 09 2014 21:07 Penev wrote:On February 09 2014 21:02 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 09 2014 20:56 Penev wrote:On February 09 2014 20:52 jekku wrote:
The thing with ppl saying maru screwed up, he may have a bit but heres the problem. Protoss can screw up early builds and still defend because the momma core overcharge. With terran it seems like if you make ONE mistake and its gg. Its not really a fair standard when one race can afford to make mistakes when another can't make ANY. I presume most people here do think that there are things wrong with the match up but this game isn't really a good one to adres balance problems because of the failed opening by Maru. Partings looked sharp today, Maru made (more) mistakes. The balance talk and talk about this game should be separate imo. This game was an excellent one actually. Check Maru's build. He goes hyper aggressive with 4 reapers while his opponent doesn't scout. If Terran doesn't scout 10 gate and opens wrongly - HE DIES. What is Partings response? Not control his MSC because not controlling it is perfectly fine, do some amove with his stalkers, and hey, he comes out ahead. Do you know how much Maru (HAD TO) invest in structures? He got a really fast ebay (during reaper 3/4, because of Orable) and had 4 Bunkers. He even cut upgrades at this point. Terran has to make soo many precautions in their builds that pretty much everything is inefficient in an optimal situation. How the game ended was just insult to injury with Parting going really dirty, but this game perfectly showed how limited Terran is in Build Orders while Protoss has a standard build order that deals with everything Terran can think of. In the sense of the "desperation opening" you actually have a point that this game can be used in a discussion about balance but the way a lot of people expressed their discontent just looked like baseless balance whining to me. People misintepret it because Blink > Terran. But in this game, Parting got a lead and finished Maru off. That is not the problem at all, that is perfectly fine! BUT, the way Parting got said lead is laughable. Calling this (or any recent PvT) a well earned win is idiotic and to Terran players downright insulting - because of how fragile and limited Terran is in the opening stages atm. Yeah, Protoss early game defense needs to be weakened (without negatively affecting PvP).
That's the whole problem.
You CAN'T nerf the Mothership Core without affecting PvP. the ONLY and I mean it, the ONLY reason it's as powerful as it is in the first place is because of PvP.
It's a stupid cycle that all comes back to Warp Gate. Warp Gate is the big over-arching problem that Blizzard doesn't want to address and band aid fixes like the Mothership Core are their attempts at trying to balance around Warp Gate.
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people get banned too for complaining about bl/festor back in late wol when it was the truth, just saying.
anyway parting did not put a foot wrong in any of his matches so he deserve credit.
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On February 09 2014 21:22 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 21:19 Penev wrote:On February 09 2014 21:13 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 09 2014 21:07 Penev wrote:On February 09 2014 21:02 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 09 2014 20:56 Penev wrote:On February 09 2014 20:52 jekku wrote:
The thing with ppl saying maru screwed up, he may have a bit but heres the problem. Protoss can screw up early builds and still defend because the momma core overcharge. With terran it seems like if you make ONE mistake and its gg. Its not really a fair standard when one race can afford to make mistakes when another can't make ANY. I presume most people here do think that there are things wrong with the match up but this game isn't really a good one to adres balance problems because of the failed opening by Maru. Partings looked sharp today, Maru made (more) mistakes. The balance talk and talk about this game should be separate imo. This game was an excellent one actually. Check Maru's build. He goes hyper aggressive with 4 reapers while his opponent doesn't scout. If Terran doesn't scout 10 gate and opens wrongly - HE DIES. What is Partings response? Not control his MSC because not controlling it is perfectly fine, do some amove with his stalkers, and hey, he comes out ahead. Do you know how much Maru (HAD TO) invest in structures? He got a really fast ebay (during reaper 3/4, because of Orable) and had 4 Bunkers. He even cut upgrades at this point. Terran has to make soo many precautions in their builds that pretty much everything is inefficient in an optimal situation. How the game ended was just insult to injury with Parting going really dirty, but this game perfectly showed how limited Terran is in Build Orders while Protoss has a standard build order that deals with everything Terran can think of. In the sense of the "desperation opening" you actually have a point that this game can be used in a discussion about balance but the way a lot of people expressed their discontent just looked like baseless balance whining to me. People misintepret it because Blink > Terran. But in this game, Parting got a lead and finished Maru off. That is not the problem at all, that is perfectly fine! BUT, the way Parting got said lead is laughable. Calling this (or any recent PvT) a well earned win is idiotic and to Terran players downright insulting - because of how fragile and limited Terran is in the opening stages atm. Yeah, Protoss early game defense needs to be weakened (without negatively affecting PvP). That's easy! Screw the "racedefining" mechanic that is Warpgate and thus introduce defenders advantage in PvP and give room for MSC nerfs. Also, away with vision and movement speed :D EDIT: To elaborate; keep warpgate, but make warpgates "worse (build time, no shields + energy on warpin, +25/25 cost) than regular gates.
Please keep this to mod threads! The Starbow team will probably love your input.
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All they have to do is:
-Reduce vision range (11) while diverting back PO to 60sec.
-Make time warp and recall an upgrade at the core (or recall only for the mothership)
-Get rid of the AtG attack.
This means, it becomes primarily a defensive unit (which was its original purpose) that needs to be invested if one decides to support attack troops with it. It also doesn't force the Terran to get marines early game if one happens to just fly over.. It still does what it does except with more investment i.e. more risk.
But whatever it is... I really want to see more TvZ and TvT or upcoming Terran players. They are going extinct I tell you!
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On February 09 2014 21:07 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 21:01 jekku wrote:On February 09 2014 21:00 one-one-one wrote:On February 09 2014 20:58 Parcelleus wrote:On February 09 2014 20:56 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 09 2014 20:52 jekku wrote:
The thing with ppl saying maru screwed up, he may have a bit but heres the problem. Protoss can screw up early builds and still defend because the momma core overcharge. With terran it seems like if you make ONE mistake and its gg. Its not really a fair standard when one race can afford to make mistakes when another can't make ANY.
User was warned for this post Care to share the reason of that warning 0.0? Lack of game knowledge. On TL.net you get banned/warned for telling the truth. I suspect that the mod didn't find him well articulated enough though. So ... double bad. Well I was told the first part was ok but the 2nd part got too balance whiney. Yeah, I get that the look down on balance whine in general, but is that an especially honorable stance to hold in these times? When the state of the game is this bad? As a mod you can always call "balance whine", but that is kind of a broad statement. This particular "whine" happened in a LR thread and came from a viewer ( you ) who had a less than enjoyable experience watching proleague. A balanced game goes hand in hand with a game that is enjoyable to watch for spectators. In the greater picture I think we should demand no less than to have both, which we don't right now. And as long as we don't have it people will complain. This is not a bad thing. Just don't be so quick in dismissing it as balance whine.
There are a lot of complaints about balance or game design in this thread, which didn't get a warning. I for one am pretty tired of those as well, LR threads are not the place for balance discussion and considering the game is in one of the best balanced states in it's whole history, but it just shows there's a level of complaint that's acceptable. Stating there's a problem with balance in a constructive manner won't get you warned, but "hurr durr protoss ez" will. And that's the way it's always been on TL, even during BL/Infestor times.
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guys where can i find vods ?
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
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On February 09 2014 21:26 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 21:07 one-one-one wrote:On February 09 2014 21:01 jekku wrote:On February 09 2014 21:00 one-one-one wrote:On February 09 2014 20:58 Parcelleus wrote:On February 09 2014 20:56 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 09 2014 20:52 jekku wrote:
The thing with ppl saying maru screwed up, he may have a bit but heres the problem. Protoss can screw up early builds and still defend because the momma core overcharge. With terran it seems like if you make ONE mistake and its gg. Its not really a fair standard when one race can afford to make mistakes when another can't make ANY.
User was warned for this post Care to share the reason of that warning 0.0? Lack of game knowledge. On TL.net you get banned/warned for telling the truth. I suspect that the mod didn't find him well articulated enough though. So ... double bad. Well I was told the first part was ok but the 2nd part got too balance whiney. Yeah, I get that the look down on balance whine in general, but is that an especially honorable stance to hold in these times? When the state of the game is this bad? As a mod you can always call "balance whine", but that is kind of a broad statement. This particular "whine" happened in a LR thread and came from a viewer ( you ) who had a less than enjoyable experience watching proleague. A balanced game goes hand in hand with a game that is enjoyable to watch for spectators. In the greater picture I think we should demand no less than to have both, which we don't right now. And as long as we don't have it people will complain. This is not a bad thing. Just don't be so quick in dismissing it as balance whine. There are a lot of complaints about balance or game design in this thread, which didn't get a warning. I for one am pretty tired of those as well, LR threads are not the place for balance discussion and considering the game is in one of the best balanced states in it's whole history, but it just shows there's a level of complaint that's acceptable. Stating there's a problem with balance in a constructive manner won't get you warned, but "hurr durr protoss ez" will. And that's the way it's always been on TL, even during BL/Infestor times.
I think that the question "My T struggles a lot against this P style. What can I do to counter it?" is a legit and necessary one, albeit perhaps not in a LR thread.
It's the "T struggle => The game is dying and Blizzard is stupid" style of reasoning that is really hurting our threads, and the border between them is very thin.
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Thank you for your hard work, Opty.
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On February 09 2014 21:26 YyapSsap wrote:
All they have to do is:
-Reduce vision range (11) while diverting back PO to 60sec.
-Make time warp and recall an upgrade at the core (or recall only for the mothership)
-Get rid of the AtG attack.
This means, it becomes primarily a defensive unit (which was its original purpose) that needs to be invested if one decides to support attack troops with it. It also doesn't force the Terran to get marines early game if one happens to just fly over.. It still does what it does except with more investment i.e. more risk.
But whatever it is... I really want to see more TvZ and TvT or upcoming Terran players. They are going extinct I tell you!
as long as MSC will be able to stop single handedly every early aggression of the T, this wont help at all. the DPS of the MSC and the PO must be reduced, at least by half. if it will ruin PvP, give it bonus dmg to shield units.
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On February 09 2014 21:26 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 21:07 one-one-one wrote:On February 09 2014 21:01 jekku wrote:On February 09 2014 21:00 one-one-one wrote:On February 09 2014 20:58 Parcelleus wrote:On February 09 2014 20:56 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 09 2014 20:52 jekku wrote:
The thing with ppl saying maru screwed up, he may have a bit but heres the problem. Protoss can screw up early builds and still defend because the momma core overcharge. With terran it seems like if you make ONE mistake and its gg. Its not really a fair standard when one race can afford to make mistakes when another can't make ANY.
User was warned for this post Care to share the reason of that warning 0.0? Lack of game knowledge. On TL.net you get banned/warned for telling the truth. I suspect that the mod didn't find him well articulated enough though. So ... double bad. Well I was told the first part was ok but the 2nd part got too balance whiney. Yeah, I get that the look down on balance whine in general, but is that an especially honorable stance to hold in these times? When the state of the game is this bad? As a mod you can always call "balance whine", but that is kind of a broad statement. This particular "whine" happened in a LR thread and came from a viewer ( you ) who had a less than enjoyable experience watching proleague. A balanced game goes hand in hand with a game that is enjoyable to watch for spectators. In the greater picture I think we should demand no less than to have both, which we don't right now. And as long as we don't have it people will complain. This is not a bad thing. Just don't be so quick in dismissing it as balance whine. There are a lot of complaints about balance or game design in this thread, which didn't get a warning. I for one am pretty tired of those as well, LR threads are not the place for balance discussion and considering the game is in one of the best balanced states in it's whole history, but it just shows there's a level of complaint that's acceptable. Stating there's a problem with balance in a constructive manner won't get you warned, but "hurr durr protoss ez" will. And that's the way it's always been on TL, even during BL/Infestor times.
TL's position on the matter is reasonable. Always act like you think the game is balanced in LR threads (because balance talk doesn't yield anything in there), at the cost of sometimes sounding ridiculous and dishonest.
Then you can "whine", as it's called nowadays, on the dedicated thread: The Mad Marine Fanclub (not the Designated Balanced thread ;D).
I didn't always agree with that position, but heh, TL's not a democracy, so you gotta get in line or get out. Personally I think balance talks are fine, especially in that state of metagame, but player bashing never is however. You can't blame the players for trying their hardest to win.
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On February 09 2014 21:22 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 21:19 Penev wrote:On February 09 2014 21:13 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 09 2014 21:07 Penev wrote:On February 09 2014 21:02 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 09 2014 20:56 Penev wrote:On February 09 2014 20:52 jekku wrote:
The thing with ppl saying maru screwed up, he may have a bit but heres the problem. Protoss can screw up early builds and still defend because the momma core overcharge. With terran it seems like if you make ONE mistake and its gg. Its not really a fair standard when one race can afford to make mistakes when another can't make ANY. I presume most people here do think that there are things wrong with the match up but this game isn't really a good one to adres balance problems because of the failed opening by Maru. Partings looked sharp today, Maru made (more) mistakes. The balance talk and talk about this game should be separate imo. This game was an excellent one actually. Check Maru's build. He goes hyper aggressive with 4 reapers while his opponent doesn't scout. If Terran doesn't scout 10 gate and opens wrongly - HE DIES. What is Partings response? Not control his MSC because not controlling it is perfectly fine, do some amove with his stalkers, and hey, he comes out ahead. Do you know how much Maru (HAD TO) invest in structures? He got a really fast ebay (during reaper 3/4, because of Orable) and had 4 Bunkers. He even cut upgrades at this point. Terran has to make soo many precautions in their builds that pretty much everything is inefficient in an optimal situation. How the game ended was just insult to injury with Parting going really dirty, but this game perfectly showed how limited Terran is in Build Orders while Protoss has a standard build order that deals with everything Terran can think of. In the sense of the "desperation opening" you actually have a point that this game can be used in a discussion about balance but the way a lot of people expressed their discontent just looked like baseless balance whining to me. People misintepret it because Blink > Terran. But in this game, Parting got a lead and finished Maru off. That is not the problem at all, that is perfectly fine! BUT, the way Parting got said lead is laughable. Calling this (or any recent PvT) a well earned win is idiotic and to Terran players downright insulting - because of how fragile and limited Terran is in the opening stages atm. Yeah, Protoss early game defense needs to be weakened (without negatively affecting PvP). That's easy! Screw the "racedefining" mechanic that is Warpgate and thus introduce defenders advantage in PvP and give room for MSC nerfs. Also, away with vision and movement speed :D EDIT: To elaborate; keep warpgate, but make warpgates "worse (build time, no shields + energy on warpin, +25/25 cost) than regular gates.
If there was a high ground/ defenders advantage in SC2 the MSC would've never be needed.
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lol Jin Air
SKT1 GoGoGo! 
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Good job Parting, great games.
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Though they were on youtube less than half an hour after you posted this  .
Anyway, to throw more fuel on the fire, watch Maru's production tab after the tech labs finish. His macro was very sloppy. He probably could have held it pretty easily if not for an idle rax and a giant supply cap.
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United States23455 Posts
Wow I wake up to this? So sad. Now I have to root for KT I guess.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
english youtube vods added for smoother experience when balance whining
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EPT
