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On February 16 2014 15:00 metroid composite wrote:
Hm, one feedback I would give:
Zombie mentioned on twitter that as a player she would much prefer to have simultaneous semifinals. And...since I was pretty much a viewer by that point...I will say that even as a viewer I actually agree with her. It was taking long enough to get the gameheart games hosted, invite all the casters, and get loaded into games that I would actually prefer to have two streams going on so that I could hop between streams during the downtime on the other stream.
keep the feedback coming, but as a response we feel that if you got that far in the tournament you deserve some sort of recognition. That is what we thought but we do see your point.
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My feedback as a viewer :
- Brackets at the last minute can't help people to make a tournament thread. Because you don't know who is going to play who, and when and on what map. Also it doesn't help the players to train. They don't know the match up and they don't know players and maps. You could show bracket a week before for exemple.
- Check TL calendar. Because as everyone mentioned. IEM.
- Don't boot Millenium TV when they ask to be put in the OP. Not helping E-sports. Not helping viewer count of your tournament.
- I don't know who is this Italian/spanish caster.. but MY GOD ! HIRE HIM AT EVERY TOURNAMENT. The guys got me hyped more than a Korean casters.. And he was alone.
My feedback from my place of behind the chair of one of the players (this is MY point of view. Not the one of my GF that played).
- My GF was playing in this and... Map pool had changed. She didn't know (that's what she said to me. I can't check) but apparently first map was going to be on Frost. Doesn't matter since she faced a master first match but training time was useless.
- QueenE asked to not show BO history in first match (which is fine i don't have problem with it). It could be stated in the rules so everyone is prepared for it and doesn't have to do it before the game (that's a minor issue)
- Players couldn't find the channel where to go in your website (because there was no Ladies of the Swarm II) and no channel in LR. I was told it is for the players to not be harassed. Well... Channel name was shown on streem on player name and character code display on zeek so it doesn't matter.
- Tournament was kind of French organized but played on the NA server which is an advantage to NA players. But maybe they were matches that took place on EU after this ? 14NA players, 1SEA, 12EU players.
That is all 
But this is good effort. Thx for organizing the event.
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On February 16 2014 19:00 FFW_Rude wrote:
- Don't boot Millenium TV when they ask to be put in the OP. Not helping E-sports. Not helping viewer count of your tournament.
If you don't know something so don't talk about it !!
Yogo just ask me to stream Ladies of the Swarm to 6pm at 7pm because after he cant' stay on air !!
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On February 16 2014 19:38 Legendk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2014 19:00 FFW_Rude wrote:
- Don't boot Millenium TV when they ask to be put in the OP. Not helping E-sports. Not helping viewer count of your tournament.
If you don't know something so don't talk about it !! Yogo just ask me to stream Ladies of the Swarm to 6pm at 7pm because after he cant' stay on air !!
That's a constructive response. Thanks a lot for it. You could have posted their stream in the op with a : "only from 6 to 7pm".
There's a better way than an aggressive response to someone giving you feedbacks. It was hard enough to have information since your website wasn't up to date. But if you don't want feedback then i'm sorry.
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Hello FFW_rude ! I get you this with LegendK.
Sorry if you feel bad, we wouldn't be agressive, our english is bad so its very difficult for us to explain to you.
We hear you and we will learn from our mistake. We had trouble with our Webmaker it's why there have no informations in the Gda website.
For map pool, it wasn't the best, maybe, but it doesn't change !
But don't i hear you and we will progress for the next one.
It will be better and offline !
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Hi!
I'd like to start with thanking all of you for making the effort of organizing these events! Really fun and motivating to have recurring tournaments for females to help encourage more women to play competitively!
However, I would like to make some suggestions for future events (hope you don't take offense,it's really not meant as being mean or disrespectful, just some constructive critiscism!)
Mappool: Now this was one of the bigger issues, playing on maps that are almost a year old, using the current laddermaps would be a LOT better idea than to use outdated maps that are not being played anymore (usually they're removed for a reason as well).
Seeding/brackets: Ok, so this time around almost every master player ended up in the same branch, whereas the lower side of the bracket didn't even have enough players for first round so almost everyone there got a W/O. This format would be OK-ish if it were double elimination. But in general implementing a seeding system would be a far better solution giving it a better player-spread making for more interesting games for casters as well as players, cramming everyone up top was just awful in general. (I know this was probably generated by the z33k system, but i really hope you consider changing this since it's quite a huge deal, making the 1-2 master player on the lower side get a pretty much guarantied 2nd place at worst.)
Also as someone above suggested, being able to see brackets at least a few days prior would help a lot in terms or practice and preparation, but that's more minor compared to how the brackets actually are formed.
Ingamegroups/chat channels: It would be amazing if you had an invite only group on B-net for these events (much like dreamhack has) or making it hidden and forbidden to expose so random people don't come in and spam and trashtalk a lot like some did this time. It takes away the feeling of being safe amongst friends (which to me is 70% of the point of even being in female only tournaments, the chance to compete in a safe environment to encourage more to actually dare to compete at all.)
Prizepool: Ok, so having a big prizepool now and again is fine, like in a yearly event or such, but in general i'd prefer a smaller prizepool for female only tournaments. I'll give you a few reasons why;
A: It deters impersonators to join since it's simply not worth the trouble for such a small amount of money.
B: It helps the events to stay as the encouraging "try-out" platform it should be, and won't make it so these female only events takes away the need or want for females to participate in anything but female only tournaments (if one could be comfortable of these winnings alone).
In turn continuous big prizepools would increase the gap of females/males in esports because females would start getting content with playing female only tours, not feeling the need to improve more and challenge the males aswell in bigger arenas such as IEM/dreamhack/WCS etcetc, and that's where we really need to see more amazing ladies perform as well.
Again, making a bigger prizepool for a one time event like a yearly finals would be completely cool though, like, let's say all the ladies of the swarm tournaments work a bit like go4sc2 where all of them leads up to a grand finals where the top 4 of each "part-tournament" leading up to it were qualified to participate, this would also give incentive for more females to participate in all of the "part-tournaments" leading up to the finals since it increases their chance of getting to the grand finals. (This would also generate a lot more hype and viewers eventually since it's a recurring thing). Then you could also have a lower prizepool in the "part-tournaments" leading up to the finals and have a slightly bigger pool in the grand finals themselves.
Verification: Something that'd be nice to implement is some form of verification of being female for these female only tours, (again, to deter impersonators, i think we all remember veralynn...). In the swedish only tournaments you need to have swedish citizenship (which is easily checked through our kind of social security number which you have to put in to participate). Now this is a little harder to tackle in your case since it's online, and females only instead of *insert country here*-only.
But possibly videocall verification through skype? (with skype premium you could verify 10 people at once and you could make it so skype addy is necessary for signing up).
And then a video-call interview with the winner of the whole thing at the end (also written into the "terms and conditions" for signing up so you can't decline if you win, otherwise you forfeit your winnings), not only would that give some good content where people would also get to know more of the probably pretty unknown player they've been watching play, but it would also force more effort to bypass if you're planning to impersonate a female to participate making it less likely someone would go through the trouble.
Thought I might aswell put it up here publicly for discussion (and to increase the chances of organizers seeing it).
I reserve myself for possible grammar/spelling mistakes and if some details are slightly off since I was eager to put all thoughts into text right away. I wrote this from how I experienced the event and from my point of view only.
Also, It's a bit rambly and if you want me to elaborate something I'll gladly do so!
And at last but not least, keep up the great work!
-Q
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I have to agree with most of what QueenE is saying!
Mappool: really should be updated and using the ladder pool is always a good option imo.
Seeding: I have to agree. The seeding or lack of seeding was really bad.
Prizepool: I agree here too. I think this was a good amount for the cup but I'd rather see the cups more often then with a higher prize pool. Like QueenE said, it's more to promote female gamers then trying to divide the scene to male and female cups. I think the prize was good for this cup tho. If you want to have a larger prize pool it would be super cool with an offline event for it in that case.
Verification: This can be a big issue. I think QueenE had good suggestions. I also remember back with Iron Lady where it was not just a skype call but you also had to talk about the game. What strategies you like etc etc. I think that would be a good addition at least for the master players. A webcam interview with the winner after would be great not just for verification but also for the streams. Not that it makes it totally safe but at least better (Verelynn...).
Server: I like that you switch between EU and NA and I hope it will continue. Some NA players have huge lag on EU and players from EU sometimes have lag to NA (I have it some days and some days are fine).
Information: I think the information was very clear and I like how easy it was to contact you and also that there was always an admin in the chat during the cup. Thanks!
Lower leagues: Iron lady used to have mousepad cups for lower leagues. When you grow and more players play in those cups I think it could be really good to remove the mouse pads from the main tournament (for example) and make smaller cups for lower leagues. When I was in plat/dia I loved those cups and gained a lot of motivation from them.
And Thanks for the cup. I think it is a really good way to promote and motivate female gamers. I hope to see more of those. And that Vasacast, it was so awesome!
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I'm 100% positive to these tournaments and the amount of females starting to play competitively is amazing. I do agree what QueenE says also ;3 But everyone isn't perfect and i don't know how much experience the management is when it comes to creating tournaments. Anyhow GL
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Thank you players for taking the time to be so thorough with suggestions, we'll go through them all carefully and do our best to improve upon things for the next tournament. We appreciate every suggestion! We did our best to listen and make changes up until the tournament as well (server play guidelines, etc). It is definitely a learning process for everyone and there are many details to iron out so I thank all the players for their patience and that you've taken time to provide feedback.
My comments from an admin-ing perspective for contribution to the dialog:
-One comment I'd like to make for the players is that all the rules, map pool, and other information were posted online for at least a month ahead of time. The map pool didn't change from the original posting. I urge players of any tournament to read through all the information surrounding a tournament, this is a common problem I see in many of the tournaments I help organize. It eliminates the "surprise" factor of discovering something you didn't expect the day of the tournament. In the future to improve upon this we should try to make these available in many languages to try to eliminate possible confusions.
- Implementing an invite only room is obvious, I apologize that was missed. The intent was not for the information to be public on stream, or linked, however we all know how that goes.
- The tournament was created by Team GdA who graciously chose to partner with Infinity Gaming for round two. The idea is that it will alternate between NA and EU servers each time it is held. As far as player demographics went, it was split almost 50/50 between NA players and EU players, so this seems reasonable to continue in the future.
- We had a couple last minute requests from groups to stream (like the morning of the tournament), from an organizational standpoint this is a nightmare… in the future I think we should implement a cutoff date for stream applications.
While more exposure is nice, this tournament also helps smaller teams like Team GdA and Infinity Gaming to continue to be active and make meaningful contributions within the community. In my opinion these events are to help build an international Starcraft community, to inspire the friendly competitive spirit and provide motivation for improvement, and to give players/teams/streamers/casters opportunities on a larger stage who may not have that opportunity otherwise.
I had a blast being part of this event because I got to collaborate with so many amazing people, LegendK (and Team GdA) has been a pleasure to work with and I'm very grateful that I was able to be a part of everything. I hope this event continues to grow in the future :-)
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One more thing I think it would be great with a lower bracket too. Maybe it could be BO1 until semi or something (in LB) so it doesn't take too long but 2*elimination would be really good! Then you could also cut the WB semi to BO3 for example and it shouldn't even take more time.
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For players like myself who usually don't advance past the first round of tournaments it is nice to be able to play more than one game so we feel included. I think ideas of making this a two day event (with double elimination) could help mitigate issues with time zone differences and give everyone an opportunity to feel included. I know many of the lower league players spend lots of time preparing and it can be demoralizing to just be out immediately. I had messages from many of the players in lower leagues saying how motivated they felt after being able to play in an event like this and even enjoy a little success. I think that is one of the goals of these events and that encouragement should be preserved.
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I do look forward to the next tournament as well!
One minor point with regards to the seeding and the brackets: In the Olympics ice hockey tournament for ladies* there were two groups initially and they put the top ranked teams in one group. Of course, teams didn't get knocked out right away, it was a round robin etc etc. However, the idea to match up players / teams that are similar in ranking is pretty good for us spectators, as we should (in theory) get to watch even and interesting matches. Of course, double elimination as QueenE pointed out, or a round robin format is almost required then.
*don't know why they don't do this for the men.
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The Italian caster is no other than the great Vasa, he's awesome
Had a blast casting this tourny, thanks for the invite once more, looking forward for future iterations
Unfortunately I missed the finals as the tourny was running for 6 hours when finals were about to start, and I had things to do and couldn't stream the final in Spanish. Sorry about that. i suggest doing something to make the tourny not last for this long, maybe 4 hours is fine but I think most of ppl involved will agree that it went for too long. Maybe play simultaneous semis -as people has suggested before- could be the answer, I'm not sure though
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On February 17 2014 06:13 ColterTV wrote:The Italian caster is no other than the great Vasa, he's awesome Had a blast casting this tourny, thanks for the invite once more, looking forward for future iterations Unfortunately I missed the finals as the tourny was running for 6 hours when finals were about to start, and I had things to do and couldn't stream the final in Spanish. Sorry about that. i suggest doing something to make the tourny not last for this long, maybe 4 hours is fine but I think most of ppl involved will agree that it went for too long. Maybe play simultaneous semis -as people has suggested before- could be the answer, I'm not sure though
Yes. The italian caster is reeeaaaaallllyyy good.
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Something to consider maybe. What if there were 3 qualifiers and both finalists of each one would qualify for the monthly finals where six players would battle for the prizes? 3 weekends for qualifiers and one for the finals where the qualifiers could be shorter (bo1) making it less tiresome and still allowing the players for proper preparation. That gives you the same prizes to give away but extends the tournament WCS style allowing for more exposure to us female players.
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I wanted to give some more feedback, first of all I think Bo3 on all match is a good thing. Seriously I know myself, as a master, that this is annoying to play a bo3 sometimes with some low leagues players, but usually when there's a huge league difference, game aren't "too" long.
Also I think it might be fine to do it on 2 days with a lower bracket, since this is not a weekly or monthly tournament, that would be really fun.
About verifications, I talked to legendk about this on skype. I think that the organisator shall be a lot more carefully about this. Just a talk on skype isn't enought. But, I kind of think the webcam verification is a bit too much. I think what maddelisk said about talking about the game, is a really good thing ( you can't cheat on this... ).
Offline tournament, would solve the problem, but i think this might also bring a lot of trouble (this would more likely make a lot of girl unable to join, because they're not always in a team that support lan fee. )
Also I think you should ask player to send an application to you. I saw a lot of people wondering who are thoses player, so this might give you some history about them. And again, this would help verification process. Most of low league girl don't actually need to be verified more than a talk on skype, that's pointless. But, any master girl got some story behind their progression. I kind of think that girl who are master + with no team, no people who can vouch them and tell they followed their progression on starcraft, are really suspicious. You don't get promoted to master league, instantly, and it's nearly impossible to not interact with other people.
So yeah, I think verification are annoying, for players and admins, I think this should be done with more common sense, instead of asking this and this and this, just adapt your verification.
For exemple check this :
Did she participate in any other tournament?
Can anyone "famous" vouch her?
Is she in a pro or a semi pro team?
Does she often stream? ( like QueenE for exemple )
and depending on this, add or remove some verifications.
Also I would love to have a kind of a girl league on multiple days based on point earned, instead of a single tournament. ( like a wcs format ).
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On February 16 2014 22:19 QueenE wrote:
Prizepool: Ok, so having a big prizepool now and again is fine, like in a yearly event or such, but in general i'd prefer a smaller prizepool for female only tournaments. I'll give you a few reasons why;
A: It deters impersonators to join since it's simply not worth the trouble for such a small amount of money.
I completely agree with this.
On February 16 2014 23:00 MaddeLisk wrote:
Lower leagues: Iron lady used to have mousepad cups for lower leagues. When you grow and more players play in those cups I think it could be really good to remove the mouse pads from the main tournament (for example) and make smaller cups for lower leagues. When I was in plat/dia I loved those cups and gained a lot of motivation from them.
I like the idea of a lower league cup, but it's a bit messy with MMR decay. For example, my 10 times masters friend has been consistently ranking in silver the past couple seasons (usually promoting to gold before the season ends). And he's been winning almost all of his games, he just hasn't been playing enough 1v1 to rank up more than gold. He's probably not masters level these days, but he's obviously not silver either, which makes it very hard to nail down the right league. When people ask me what league I'm in, I end up shrugging and saying I don't really know. Last time I played a number of games in one season I ended the season in platinum, but I also had a 60%-65% win ratio and was top of my division; maybe if I played a few more games I would have promoted...but then again, maybe not. Am I eligible to compete in a plat-and-under tournament?
EDIT:
on the subject of having lots of tournaments, or multiple smaller qualifiers to a bigger event...here's the issue I have with this:
I actually didn't know female tournaments even existed when I started playing, so this is all based on research I've done on liquipedia but...in 2011 there were a lot of female tournaments, events every week (alternating between "ladies night" "bunny cups" etc). But gradually a lot of these events ended up getting cancelled, and often the issue would be that only 4 girls would sign up for an event, and then it would be cancelled due to not being enough players to justify the prize pool. Speaking for myself, if this were a weekly tournament, I might have chickened out this week (was playing a lot of Hearthstone, didn't really feel prepared this time). But since these events are only once every 3 months, I made myself play a bunch more SC2, studied some build orders, and signed up; I didn't want to miss it and sit out for 3 months, rusty though I may be.
Point is, if events are too frequent, you might start having attendance issues; it has happened in the past. (I think they could be a little more frequent than once every 3 months, especially if some events were lower league events, but I'd be cautious about adding a lot of events).
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QueenE and Maddelisk already made some great points and I have to especially agree with the map pool and seeding.
From a caster perspective the organisation of matches was kind of chaotic, since we we're told that we would be assigned to games and then nobody ever did. There were not enough admins to create games and some did not know how to create GameHeart lobbies, which we resolved by just letting the casters host. We were not invited to the 2nd game even though we cast the first game of the series. Some players could not be reached via direct message.
Just a few things to keep in mind for the next instance.
Otherwise it was a great tournament and some really amazing games and my yearly highlight so far
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I think the Cup came out great. The bracket was indeed a bit awkward and it finished late for us Eurooeans but there's always room for improvemenrs. Can I ask though, why some of you want better verification? Is this aimed at any soecific person? Surely if admins allowed everybody to play the players are verified, no? It seems some ladies are insinuating that other Ladies of the Swarm are dudes which is a bit weird as I would have thought being a minority in eSports (and not in a bad way) you would stick together and support one another not accuse of lack of sportsmanship.
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Well,
From all the points made, I have come to the conclusion of the following:
1. Better verification
2. More tournaments but qualifiers, maybe 4 qualifiers quarterly and then one big tournament with all the people who qualified
3. map pool
4. Makes rules more visible
5. Have a required interview for the winner
6. A double elimination bracket with (bo1 rounds?)
That's what i have gathered from all the feedback and keep it going. But as always thanks for all the support and glad you all had fun.
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EPT
