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On November 23 2013 19:30 BlackCompany wrote:
I dont understand why you play that passive vs zergs, i thought people realized that you get in a lot of trouble if you allow Zerg 4 bases and 90 drones uncontested.
He didn't play that passive. Bboong Bboong defended drops better than Ragnarok and once mutas were out, MMA should have stopped dropping. He lost way to many units to mutas in those drops.If he didnt he would max faster and maybe he would delay hive longer by pushing directly with his whole army. Terrans advantage is really only when you are on 3-3 and zerg is on 2-2, MMA never had that advantage.
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On November 23 2013 19:33 Dodgin wrote:
Everyone keeps bashing on tanks but every time Bomber uses them he owns, maybe bomber's just the godliest though.
It's more that bomber incorporates them in a classic composition as a complimentary unit. I think the tank can work in that scenario, but will mean you needs more facs or you make do with less mines. It's a trade off, I'm not sure it's worth it.
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4713 Posts
On November 23 2013 19:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 19:34 Destructicon wrote:On November 23 2013 19:32 PineapplePizza wrote:On November 23 2013 19:28 Destructicon wrote:
I want to see if Innovation's parade push style can break that defense from B4. Isn't that what MMA was trying to do? Did I miss something? I dunno how Terran is supposed to play for the late-game. They don't work very well at the food cap, until 10 minutes later when they have an orbital farm :/ MMA looked like he delayed widow mine production for a while and was trying to be aggressive with double drops and such. Innovation would have gone for more frontal aggression after the 11:00 move out to clear creep. He wouldn't have delayed WM production as much and would have an overall stronger push. Regardless, earlier WM production would have given him unreliable results. Either those mines do the job or they spectacularly fail to trade well and you just get run over. Prepatch absolutely I'd agree, but if the last 2 evenings of matches have shown anything, mines are not doing their job anymore.
I totally agree with you, but I was just pointing out the difference between Innovation's style and MMA's style in my post. I didn't mean to imply Innovation's style would work, was just curious to see it in action vs this exact build B4 did.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On November 23 2013 19:36 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 19:33 Dodgin wrote:
Everyone keeps bashing on tanks but every time Bomber uses them he owns, maybe bomber's just the godliest though. It's more that bomber incorporates them in a classic composition as a complimentary unit. I think the tank can work in that scenario, but will mean you needs more facs or you make do with less mines. It's a trade off, I'm not sure it's worth it.
He kinda makes them early game IIRC to be safe and after that transitions into biomine. So he loses around 6 mines for a good cover of them.
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On November 23 2013 19:36 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 19:34 VKCA wrote:On November 23 2013 19:32 Xoronius wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 bo1b wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 Dodgin wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 bo1b wrote:
Why did they nerf the widowmine without a compromise :\ didn't siege tanks get a dps buff? Thats not a big enough buff lol Depends on the player. Since the Siege-tank buff, GoOdy had a 93%-vZ ladder winrate at one point. lol yeah I'm sure he'd do fantastic on the kr ladder vs gm zerg muta harass protip he'd die, a lot. Widow mines are, or were, stupid fucking good, so to compensate, mutas got their buffs. After mutas got their buffs, tanks became a rather bad idea against anybody who builds more than 12 muta Time to nerf muta regen!
fuck yeah, and buff some other shit... I play zerg, and since hots the only games I win are with mutas or swarmhosts (or my opponent being awful but you know, plat tings)
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On November 23 2013 19:36 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 19:34 TheDwf wrote:On November 23 2013 19:32 Xoronius wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 bo1b wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 Dodgin wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 bo1b wrote:
Why did they nerf the widowmine without a compromise :\ didn't siege tanks get a dps buff? Thats not a big enough buff lol Depends on the player. Since the Siege-tank buff, GoOdy had a 93%-vZ ladder winrate at one point. Then we wish him good luck for his next Code S match! Ofc we do! But being serious, what would you recommend to buff, when nerfing Widow-mine? A Marine-buff would be to brutal in early game. Thors maybe?
If they want to see more Tanks against Zerg, the answer is obvious. They should also tone down muta regen.
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Has someone been trying to go Hellions instead of mines recently?
I'm just wondering but on paper they do quite good vs lings/banes + they are fast and mobile
You would lack the shooting-up vs mutas but they arent as vulnerable as tanks.. just wondering, anyone care to share his thoughts?
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An early biotank push would have killed B4 in the last game, no? B4 delayed his mutas quite a bit so he wouldn't have too many of them to make tanks useless.
Biotank seems good in the early-game but pretty much useless later on.
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4713 Posts
On November 23 2013 19:39 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 19:36 Xoronius wrote:On November 23 2013 19:34 TheDwf wrote:On November 23 2013 19:32 Xoronius wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 bo1b wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 Dodgin wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 bo1b wrote:
Why did they nerf the widowmine without a compromise :\ didn't siege tanks get a dps buff? Thats not a big enough buff lol Depends on the player. Since the Siege-tank buff, GoOdy had a 93%-vZ ladder winrate at one point. Then we wish him good luck for his next Code S match! Ofc we do! But being serious, what would you recommend to buff, when nerfing Widow-mine? A Marine-buff would be to brutal in early game. Thors maybe? If they want to see more Tanks against Zerg, the answer is obvious. They should also tone down muta regen.
Maybe even reduce muta speed by 0.25 or more, I think the days of Zerg dying to speed medivacs are now firmly over.
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Australia18228 Posts
On November 23 2013 19:40 Keeemy wrote:
An early biotank push would have killed B4 in the last game, no? B4 delayed his mutas quite a bit so he wouldn't have too many of them to make tanks useless.
He would've recognised it with the overlord scouts, I think
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On November 23 2013 19:39 BlackCompany wrote:
Has someone been trying to go Hellions instead of mines recently?
I'm just wondering but on paper they do quite good vs lings/banes + they are fast and mobile
You would lack the shooting-up vs mutas but they arent as vulnerable as tanks.. just wondering, anyone care to share his thoughts?
The problem is not in the ground army it is in mutas. Afaik, zerg got faster regen on mutas because of WM design (ground and air AOE). Tanks or helions could deal with ground army but they don't help against mutas at all.
Maybe some kind of thor AA buff, idk.
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Come on Axiom! Show how amazing you truly are ! =)
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On November 23 2013 19:39 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 19:36 Xoronius wrote:On November 23 2013 19:34 TheDwf wrote:On November 23 2013 19:32 Xoronius wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 bo1b wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 Dodgin wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 bo1b wrote:
Why did they nerf the widowmine without a compromise :\ didn't siege tanks get a dps buff? Thats not a big enough buff lol Depends on the player. Since the Siege-tank buff, GoOdy had a 93%-vZ ladder winrate at one point. Then we wish him good luck for his next Code S match! Ofc we do! But being serious, what would you recommend to buff, when nerfing Widow-mine? A Marine-buff would be to brutal in early game. Thors maybe? If they want to see more Tanks against Zerg, the answer is obvious. They should also tone down muta regen.
good lord this isn't fucking complicated
whenever you hear a (professional) zerg talking about balance, the only thing they ever say (besides swarm hosts) is "lol muta's are so op"
and as a pretty bad zerg, I agree
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4713 Posts
Alicia has an awesome looking keyboard, now I want to see an awesome strategy from him!
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On November 23 2013 19:41 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 19:39 BlackCompany wrote:
Has someone been trying to go Hellions instead of mines recently?
I'm just wondering but on paper they do quite good vs lings/banes + they are fast and mobile
You would lack the shooting-up vs mutas but they arent as vulnerable as tanks.. just wondering, anyone care to share his thoughts? The problem is not in the ground army it is in mutas. Afaik, zerg got faster regen on mutas because of WM design (ground and air AOE). Tanks or helions could deal with ground army but they don't help against mutas at all. Maybe some kind of thor AA buff, idk.
I feel the WM almost only zone the mutas out nowadays, you dont see the really huge shots anymore. Marines do really good vs mutas and the hellions can clean the ground really nicely
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On November 23 2013 19:39 BlackCompany wrote:
Has someone been trying to go Hellions instead of mines recently?
I'm just wondering but on paper they do quite good vs lings/banes + they are fast and mobile
You would lack the shooting-up vs mutas but they arent as vulnerable as tanks.. just wondering, anyone care to share his thoughts?
Neither Hellions nor Hellbats can do the job. They're not good at all vs Banelings (they aren't Light).
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On November 23 2013 19:40 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 19:39 TheDwf wrote:On November 23 2013 19:36 Xoronius wrote:On November 23 2013 19:34 TheDwf wrote:On November 23 2013 19:32 Xoronius wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 bo1b wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 Dodgin wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 bo1b wrote:
Why did they nerf the widowmine without a compromise :\ didn't siege tanks get a dps buff? Thats not a big enough buff lol Depends on the player. Since the Siege-tank buff, GoOdy had a 93%-vZ ladder winrate at one point. Then we wish him good luck for his next Code S match! Ofc we do! But being serious, what would you recommend to buff, when nerfing Widow-mine? A Marine-buff would be to brutal in early game. Thors maybe? If they want to see more Tanks against Zerg, the answer is obvious. They should also tone down muta regen. Maybe even reduce muta speed by 0.25 or more, I think the days of Zerg dying to speed medivacs are now firmly over.
we just saw ragnarok getting brutalized by speed medivacs and you say these times are over, yes guys mma lost but it's not time for a balance debate yet, things need to get figured out first before talking about possible changes AGAIN.
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On November 23 2013 19:36 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 19:34 TheDwf wrote:On November 23 2013 19:32 Xoronius wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 bo1b wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 Dodgin wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 bo1b wrote:
Why did they nerf the widowmine without a compromise :\ didn't siege tanks get a dps buff? Thats not a big enough buff lol Depends on the player. Since the Siege-tank buff, GoOdy had a 93%-vZ ladder winrate at one point. Then we wish him good luck for his next Code S match! Ofc we do! But being serious, what would you recommend to buff, when nerfing Widow-mine? A Marine-buff would be to brutal in early game. Thors maybe?
Nerf Zerg gameplay. Prepatch the widowmine was already not too strong and unreliable and it did show in recent games if you look at good Zergs. Everyone could forsee that the change will result in biomine being insanely wonky, unreliable and flat out bad.
If you buff tanks any further, mech will rule supreme over bio in TvT. The huge weakness with tanks is that there is no early midgame timing with them other than putting yourself allin with it. We saw Bomber play a combat shield tank push, but that would need either roach aggression (a failed one) or a very risky play from Zerg to be successful. If it gets spotted or read by any means, Zerg will crush your push and you have no timing at all forever.
So tank/marine while I really like it will come out in midgame and games could look similar to the broodlord infestor stage aka 2-2 'pray he has no broodlords yet' timing. Besides that you would now see ultralisks as they got severely buffed vs marines. Buffing tanks against massive and a faster siege/unsiege would already be pretty good, but that still doesn*t solve the issue that until around 14 minutes zerg could basically do whatever they want and with bio/tank you will not push on creep. Also the current muta will fly circles around your forces and pick of 1-2-3 tanks before you even reach their base.
So, well played Blizzard, I don't know what to change to fix it.
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On November 23 2013 19:40 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 19:39 TheDwf wrote:On November 23 2013 19:36 Xoronius wrote:On November 23 2013 19:34 TheDwf wrote:On November 23 2013 19:32 Xoronius wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 bo1b wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 Dodgin wrote:On November 23 2013 19:29 bo1b wrote:
Why did they nerf the widowmine without a compromise :\ didn't siege tanks get a dps buff? Thats not a big enough buff lol Depends on the player. Since the Siege-tank buff, GoOdy had a 93%-vZ ladder winrate at one point. Then we wish him good luck for his next Code S match! Ofc we do! But being serious, what would you recommend to buff, when nerfing Widow-mine? A Marine-buff would be to brutal in early game. Thors maybe? If they want to see more Tanks against Zerg, the answer is obvious. They should also tone down muta regen. Maybe even reduce muta speed by 0.25 or more, I think the days of Zerg dying to speed medivacs are now firmly over.
Nerfing muta speed would make it stupidly easy for phoenix to shut down mutas in ZvP, which is one of a grand total of 2 good options zerg have in that match up right now. I think just making some bad terran units less bad is a better approach.
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EPT
