★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
40 total votes
Your vote: Recommend MC vs. FireCake Game 1?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend MC vs. FireCake Game 2?
★★★- Good game (8)
73%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (3)
27%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
11 total votes
Your vote: Recommend MC vs. FireCake Game 2?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend MC vs. FireCake Game 3?
★★★- Good game (4)
44%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (2)
22%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (1)
11%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
11%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
11%
9 total votes
Your vote: Recommend MC vs. FireCake Game 3?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (9)
69%
★★★- Good game (2)
15%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (1)
8%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
8%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
13 total votes
Your vote: Recommend StarDust vs. Kas Game 1?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend StarDust vs. Kas Game 2?
★★★- Good game (5)
42%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (5)
42%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (1)
8%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
8%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (0)
0%
12 total votes
Your vote: Recommend StarDust vs. Kas Game 2?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend StarDust vs. Kas Game 3?
★★★- Good game (7)
54%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (3)
23%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (1)
8%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (1)
8%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
8%
13 total votes
Your vote: Recommend StarDust vs. Kas Game 3?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
10 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Winners' Match Game 1?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend Winners' Match Game 2?
★★★★- Highly recommended game (4)
50%
★★★- Good game (2)
25%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
13%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
13%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
8 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Winners' Match Game 2?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend Winners' Match Game 3?
★★★- Good game (5)
56%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (2)
22%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (1)
11%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
11%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (0)
0%
9 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Winners' Match Game 3?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (2)
29%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
7 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Losers' Match Game 1?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend Losers' Match Game 2?
★★★- Good game (2)
33%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (2)
33%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
17%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
17%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
6 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Losers' Match Game 2?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend Losers' Match Game 3?
★★★- Good game (4)
67%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
17%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (1)
17%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
6 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Losers' Match Game 3?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
11%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (1)
11%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
11%
9 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Final Match Game 1?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend Final Match Game 2?
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (7)
39%
★★★- Good game (4)
22%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4)
22%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (2)
11%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (1)
6%
18 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Final Match Game 2?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend Final Match Game 3?
★★★- Good game (5)
50%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (2)
20%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
10%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (1)
10%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
10%
10 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Final Match Game 3?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
lichter's notes: I am currently writing a FAQ for LR threads, to be included at the bottom of each LR. Mostly I want it to address questions regarding LR threads, as well as questions about becoming LR OPs. Please look through the FAQ and PM me with ideas to improve it. TY!
Volunteer! All you have to do is check if there's already a thread for the tournament, or if anyone is scheduled to make the thread. If there isn't a thread and no one is scheduled to do it, you can become the LR OP! We are always looking for new people to help out, especially for WCS AM and EU.
Being the LR thread OP is hard work, but it's also fulfilling. Hundreds, if not thousands, of people check the LR thread every day, and it is a valuable resource to the community. It's a simple way of supporting SC2, the game we all presumably love :p
Now that I've decided to be a LR OP, what do I do? + Show Spoiler +
LRing is tough work, and only a handful of people do it regularly. The most famous ones are Shellshock and The_Templar, but occasionally other people (such as packrat, Yello, etc) do it as well. If no one is available to do it, then there is no LR. Again, we need more volunteers. Anyone who watches games regularly and types really, really fast has qualifications to become an LRer.
All you have to do is write out what happens during the game. It doesn't need to be complete, but it should be a good summary of the entire game. Supply counts, timings, build orders, and major events are typically what receive priority in LRs. You can read more LRs by Shellshock and The_Templar for a better idea of how to do it.
Can I submit a new banner, player photos, or other images? + Show Spoiler +
Yes! We encourage creativity in LR threads, so if you want to submit some fancy stuff and replace the premade ones, go right ahead.
Who do I contact if I have questions about LR threads? + Show Spoiler +
There seems to be a bit of a hierarchy in skill here, with not much room to argue against Stardust>MC>Kas>Firecake. Maybe someone will upset the established order!
On September 18 2013 23:44 slowbacontron wrote: There seems to be a bit of a hierarchy in skill here, with not much room to argue against Stardust>MC>Kas>Firecake. Maybe someone will upset the established order!
Not much room to argue that MC is better than Stardust? MC lost last season finals 3-4 against the guy that beat a ton of Europe's best PvPers, Stardust just lost to elfi. MC's last tournament he put up the best performance any P did against Jaedong and lost to Rain in PvP, who is probably #1 or close to it in that matchup.
On September 19 2013 01:00 NovaMB wrote: Btw Group drawings for the ro16 are immediatly after tonights games
Just to draw a picture of possible pairings we have those 1st and 2nd place finishers: 1st 2nd ForGG Targa Happy duckdeok Vortix random german toss that killed Mvp Showtime Genius Starbuck Welmu Thorzain Titan Nerchio MMA Babyknight As of now we may have a group of 4 P but not 4 Z or 4T group unless FireCake tops this one or Kas comes second by the way :D
On September 19 2013 01:00 NovaMB wrote: Btw Group drawings for the ro16 are immediatly after tonights games
Just to draw a picture of possible pairings we have those 1st and 2nd place finishers: 1st 2nd ForGG Targa Happy duckdeok Vortix random german toss that killed Mvp Showtime Genius Starbuck Welmu Thorzain Titan Nerchio MMA Babyknight As of now we may have a group of 4 P but not 4 Z or 4T group unless FireCake tops this one or Kas comes second by the way :D
Cheering for Stardust, and MC. Stardust is such a fun guy to see during offline events, and is really good, and MC is just a legend. Might be fun to see Firecake do well too, this is still kinda the season of upsets. Sorry to Kas, but I just don't have any opinion of him either way.
On September 19 2013 01:00 NovaMB wrote: Btw Group drawings for the ro16 are immediatly after tonights games
Just to draw a picture of possible pairings we have those 1st and 2nd place finishers: 1st 2nd ForGG Targa Happy duckdeok Vortix random german toss that killed Mvp Showtime Genius Starbuck Welmu Thorzain Titan Nerchio MMA Babyknight As of now we may have a group of 4 P but not 4 Z or 4T group unless FireCake tops this one or Kas comes second by the way :D
I wish we had a live group selection a la GSL.
With Stephano, Nerchio, NaNiwa and MC, it would have been hilarious.
On September 18 2013 23:44 slowbacontron wrote: There seems to be a bit of a hierarchy in skill here, with not much room to argue against Stardust>MC>Kas>Firecake. Maybe someone will upset the established order!
Not much room to argue that MC is better than Stardust? MC lost last season finals 3-4 against the guy that beat a ton of Europe's best PvPers, Stardust just lost to elfi. MC's last tournament he put up the best performance any P did against Jaedong and lost to Rain in PvP, who is probably #1 or close to it in that matchup.
really nice use of blinding cloud and broodlords. Broodies out of position ? Stalkers coming in ... bam blinding cloud and a nice broodling instant surround bugging the stalkers.
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
40 total votes
Your vote: Recommend MC vs. FireCake Game 1?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
40 total votes
Your vote: Recommend MC vs. FireCake Game 1?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
I guess MC was too ahead to lose but I have no idea what he was thinking microing against broodlings for like 25 seconds without killing anything else in the main base... He lost like 20 supply and accomplished nothing.
On September 19 2013 01:38 SkullZ9 wrote: I have the feeling that Firecake could have done a better job with these mutalisks like destroying a base or two ! He had such a huge number
On September 19 2013 01:39 Nebuchad wrote: I guess MC was too ahead to lose but I have no idea what he was thinking microing against broodlings for like 25 seconds without killing anything else in the main base... He lost like 20 supply and accomplished nothing.
Overall good game to watch but that was weird.
He was gaining time since his army was dead up there only the stalkers would have been able to escape. And as long as the Broodlords are up there they are years away from MCs bases. And he had the better income so time was on his side.
To bad Firecake misscontrolled against the Tempest and lost 2 vipers and tons of Mutas.
On September 19 2013 01:33 SkullZ9 wrote: Firecake threw his advantage
He threw it big time. At one point he had 30 larvae, 4k minerals, 2.5k gas and what did he build? Zerglings.
But I guess thats his lack of experience vs big names?
Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if Firecake was nervous ^^ Happy birthday btw
Thanks!
I think he might be a little clueless as to what to do against MC. It's sad, because he seems like a promising player! Zerglings just dont work against colossi, and the general army comp is not that useful either.
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (3)
27%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
11 total votes
Your vote: Recommend MC vs. FireCake Game 2?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend MC vs. FireCake Game 3?
★★★- Good game (4)
44%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (2)
22%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (1)
11%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
11%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
11%
9 total votes
Your vote: Recommend MC vs. FireCake Game 3?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
On September 19 2013 01:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: GSL Champion ^^
MC is still pretty good at SC2 and one of my favorite players in WCS EU.
Same here ^^ He's definitely not done yet.
I will take MC and an unlimited number of EU stars over all of WCS Korea.(Yeah, I said it) There is something more fun about the EU scene, a little more light hearted and scrappier games. Plus more up and coming players.
haha kas is a sad boy playing against two tosses in his group. i remember watching sd's stream at like 2 am and they got matched up against each other every time and kas lost every single one. i think he is a sad panda against toss.
On September 19 2013 01:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: GSL Champion ^^
MC is still pretty good at SC2 and one of my favorite players in WCS EU.
Same here ^^ He's definitely not done yet.
I will take MC and an unlimited number of EU stars over all of WCS Korea.(Yeah, I said it) There is something more fun about the EU scene, a little more light hearted and scrappier games. Plus more up and coming players.
Ofcourse more up and coming players, its easier to be up&coming and get recognized in Europe compared to Korea
On September 19 2013 02:01 Undead1993 wrote: haha kas is a sad boy playing against two tosses in his group. i remember watching sd's stream at like 2 am and they got matched up against each other every time and kas lost every single one. i think he is a sad panda against toss.
GOGO STARDUST! I see a lot of people massively favoring stardust, but I think Kas has a pretty good shot. Last time they met in a "serious" circumstance, it was in Kiev during a live set of showmatches. Kas took their match 2-1. Think SD is favored but Kas definitely has a shot.
On September 19 2013 02:01 Undead1993 wrote: haha kas is a sad boy playing against two tosses in his group. i remember watching sd's stream at like 2 am and they got matched up against each other every time and kas lost every single one. i think he is a sad panda against toss.
Yeah, his mindset against P seems terrible.
He's in quite bad shape generally, which makes me a bit worried considering how hard he works for it.
On September 19 2013 01:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: GSL Champion ^^
MC is still pretty good at SC2 and one of my favorite players in WCS EU.
Same here ^^ He's definitely not done yet.
I will take MC and an unlimited number of EU stars over all of WCS Korea.(Yeah, I said it) There is something more fun about the EU scene, a little more light hearted and scrappier games. Plus more up and coming players.
Ofcourse more up and coming players, its easier to be up&coming and get recognized in Europe compared to Korea
Again, another reason for me to enjoy it more. Its more fun than the 45 Kespa B teamers running around right now. Plus they have MC, Grubby, TLO and all those other fine folks.
On September 19 2013 01:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: GSL Champion ^^
MC is still pretty good at SC2 and one of my favorite players in WCS EU.
Same here ^^ He's definitely not done yet.
I will take MC and an unlimited number of EU stars over all of WCS Korea.(Yeah, I said it) There is something more fun about the EU scene, a little more light hearted and scrappier games. Plus more up and coming players.
Ofcourse more up and coming players, its easier to be up&coming and get recognized in Europe compared to Korea
Again, another reason for me to enjoy it more. Its more fun than the 45 Kespa B teamers running around right now. Plus they have MC, Grubby, TLO and all those other fine folks.
It was no critic. To everyone its own. I prefer highest level of play so I prefer Korea. Others find entertainment in a bit scrappy but fast paced games etc. No judgement here
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (9)
69%
★★★- Good game (2)
15%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (1)
8%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
8%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
13 total votes
Your vote: Recommend StarDust vs. Kas Game 1?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (9)
69%
★★★- Good game (2)
15%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (1)
8%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
8%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
13 total votes
Your vote: Recommend StarDust vs. Kas Game 1?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
On September 19 2013 02:09 ETisME wrote: LOL the mineral income for kas was almost as high as stardust, WTF
Kas usually pulls only 10-15 SCVs, don't know how many he pulled there but if you take only ~5-8 from each mineral line (and possibly remove some from gas), you can maintain a good income.
On September 19 2013 02:04 NarutO wrote: Robo Robo bay Twilight Forge
1 Gate, seems legit -_-
CC first no scout no bunker .. :3
and he would have died to any aggression, correct.
So both sides flipping that coin has hard as they can and hoping it works out.
Not really. The MSC allows for the build that is as greedy without a option for Terran to really punish it. Ofcourse you can go 1-1-1 opening before expansion but those are essentially all-in / very gamblish or you can go minedrop after expansion but thats basically a scout nowadays. We saw Terrans earlier go for minedrop with 4 marines but since that does nothing really they nowadays drop either 1 mine or 2 mines and try to get scouting off.
Aggression early on (no medivacs) is basically shut down due to photon overcharge and other builds (1-1-1) if they don't flat out kill Protoss will potentially leave you in a economic disadvantage. Not saying it never works, but it does rarely enough and its very specialized to punish certain builds and is terrible against pretty much all other builds so its not worth approaching the game that way.
On September 19 2013 02:09 ETisME wrote: LOL the mineral income for kas was almost as high as stardust, WTF
Kas usually pulls only 10-15 SCVs, don't know how many he pulled there but if you take only ~5-8 from each mineral line (and possibly remove some from gas), you can maintain a good income.
To be fair i think Kas would win a game even without scv pull here.
On September 19 2013 02:15 DarkLordOlli wrote: Stardust took a horrible engagement and missed a warpin round because he added the templar archives and three gates.
On September 19 2013 02:04 NarutO wrote: Robo Robo bay Twilight Forge
1 Gate, seems legit -_-
CC first no scout no bunker .. :3
and he would have died to any aggression, correct.
So both sides flipping that coin has hard as they can and hoping it works out.
Not really. The MSC allows for the build that is as greedy without a option for Terran to really punish it. Ofcourse you can go 1-1-1 opening before expansion but those are essentially all-in / very gamblish or you can go minedrop after expansion but thats basically a scout nowadays. We saw Terrans earlier go for minedrop with 4 marines but since that does nothing really they nowadays drop either 1 mine or 2 mines and try to get scouting off.
Aggression early on (no medivacs) is basically shut down due to photon overcharge and other builds (1-1-1) if they don't flat out kill Protoss will potentially leave you in a economic disadvantage. Not saying it never works, but it does rarely enough and its very specialized to punish certain builds and is terrible against pretty much all other builds so its not worth approaching the game that way.
Yeah, that seems to be what a lot of terrans are feeling. I know I watched a WCS NA game earlier this week were a terran went full man mode and just tanked the cannon and sniped the nexus. I think folks are going to figure a way around it or find that exact number of units that can get the job done even with the cannon blazing.
The 1 gate robo into twilight, aoe tech (robo bay or templar archives) and single forge is the norm in PvT macro opening. It is impossible to punish because of the mothership core and 1 gate building units being able to fend off all pre-observer timings. When the obs scouts the enemy base and sees mass barracks more gates can be put down to defend.
The general timing of the 1 gate expand build is 2 more gates at 8 mins, 3-4 more gates at 9 mins and this is enough to hold all the timings up to the 2 medivac timing. I think Stardust lost in the game because he went for double forge too fast and so did not have enough gas to build units.
On September 19 2013 02:18 DarkLordOlli wrote: I feel like if you open with Innovation's 2 barracks fast stim build you just get in there and win the game against Stardust's build
On September 19 2013 02:18 DarkLordOlli wrote: I feel like if you open with Innovation's 2 barracks fast stim build you just get in there and win the game against Stardust's build
My toughts. But it seems risky if the Protoss player decides to play somewhat safe. :x
On September 19 2013 02:18 DarkLordOlli wrote: I feel like if you open with Innovation's 2 barracks fast stim build you just get in there and win the game against Stardust's build
not really with proper scouting IMO.
If you scout it you at least can't go that much tech off one gate
On September 19 2013 02:18 DarkLordOlli wrote: I feel like if you open with Innovation's 2 barracks fast stim build you just get in there and win the game against Stardust's build
My toughts. But it seems risky if the Protoss player decides to play somewhat safe. :x
Well you don't need to deal damage at all with Innovation's build. It's a macro build with 2 rax instead of 3 but with fast stim and earlier marauders. Lots of potential to punish greedy protoss builds imo or at least force overcharge and keep them from being too greedy. Innovation vs HerO game 1 from Dreamhack is a good example. Innovation didn't do damage but he forced overcharge so HerO had to play safer.
On September 19 2013 02:18 DarkLordOlli wrote: I feel like if you open with Innovation's 2 barracks fast stim build you just get in there and win the game against Stardust's build
not really with proper scouting IMO.
If you scout it you at least can't go that much tech off one gate
Does not his push out sacrifices something though (like delays factory without getting a really strong economy), i forget that bop game all the time.
On September 19 2013 02:22 Sated wrote: You can't take a third base that quickly against Speedivacs. You get torn to pieces.
Of course you can, watch the second series from First vs Polt at WCS global finals for instance. Stardust's build was bad (too middle-of-the-road), you have to take the third even earlier so it pays off.
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (5)
42%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (1)
8%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
8%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (0)
0%
12 total votes
Your vote: Recommend StarDust vs. Kas Game 2?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend StarDust vs. Kas Game 3?
★★★- Good game (7)
54%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (3)
23%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (1)
8%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (1)
8%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
8%
13 total votes
Your vote: Recommend StarDust vs. Kas Game 3?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Payam Toghyan @iamTT1 4m eu terran should open 4rax marine marau pressure to punish these openers, na style
We all know NA Terrans are most successful. Wait.... I tried that already, lots of games. I even tried 5 Rax. If Protoss isn't dumb, he will put down sentries and buy time with forcefields until you either retreat or he can fight. Also your tech will be insanely delayed which will kill you if you don't win the game with your timing so you are basically saying Terran should put it on one card!
On September 19 2013 02:18 DarkLordOlli wrote: I feel like if you open with Innovation's 2 barracks fast stim build you just get in there and win the game against Stardust's build
not really with proper scouting IMO.
If you scout it you at least can't go that much tech off one gate
Does not his push out sacrifices something though (like delays factory without getting a really strong economy), i forget that bop game all the time.
I think it delays the ebay you'd get against DTs or oracle play but he just has units in his mineral lines to make up for it until he moves out. Factory timing I think is the same.
Payam Toghyan @iamTT1 4m eu terran should open 4rax marine marau pressure to punish these openers, na style
Except Terran doesn't know if Protoss will play standard or take such a fast third, so 4 rax is just a miserable gamble which will horribly backfire against standard play.
On September 19 2013 02:24 Extenz wrote: i dont understand why stardust gets such a late storm.. -.-"
to be honest, I much prefer storm before colossi. At least it is harder to scv pull against storm and you get the benefit of being able to afford a *lot* of zealots for tanking
On September 19 2013 02:22 Sated wrote: You can't take a third base that quickly against Speedivacs. You get torn to pieces.
Do not see StarDust getting torn yet. Ouch, Kas failed his armory timing hard, right?
what are you watching then? he was torn apart by these medivacs like crazy, that's why kas had a 50 supply lead in the last engagement.
I missed probe killled count, but i would suppose if you go fast third and double forget collosi into templar archives you would have a serious supply deficit against MMM.
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (5)
42%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (1)
8%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
8%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (0)
0%
12 total votes
Your vote: Recommend StarDust vs. Kas Game 2?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend StarDust vs. Kas Game 3?
★★★- Good game (7)
54%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (3)
23%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (1)
8%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (1)
8%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
8%
13 total votes
Your vote: Recommend StarDust vs. Kas Game 3?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
Nah, you are all super stubborn and hate change, like every other SC2 pro in the world. Someone puts in a new maps and everyone goes "Who moved my Cheese? I hate learning new maps! Wait, why can't I just do my standard builds? I have to learn/make up new build? Who moved my cheese?"
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
Nah, you are all super stubborn and hate change, like every other SC2 pro in the world. Someone puts in a new maps and everyone goes "Who moved my Cheese? I hate learning new maps! Wait, why can't I just do my standard builds? I have to learn/make up new build? Who moved my cheese?"
I feel charmed that you imply I am a top Terran. While I am not, I am pretty sure the top Terrans around the world are talking to their top Protoss counterparts and I am pretty sure that by now they have tried a ton of shit, but they stick to things they know will eventually work out or at least to a percentage work out (scv pull timings for instance). Do you really believe pros are not trying different shit?
On September 19 2013 02:22 Sated wrote: You can't take a third base that quickly against Speedivacs. You get torn to pieces.
Of course you can, watch the second series from First vs Polt at WCS global finals for instance. Stardust's build was bad (too middle-of-the-road), you have to take the third even earlier so it pays off.
I was speaking within the context of the Colossus opening he used... sorry if that wasn't clear...
First did go Colossi in one of the games along with his fast third. But going 7'50 third like Stardust just did makes little sense since the third has barely paid off by the time the Medivac push hits, while if you take it between 5'45 - 6'30 it's OK.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
INnoVation, TaeJa. Plural and TaeJa doesn't win every TvP, neither does he do so with macro all the time.
I was mainly just kidding I recognize that Innovation is up there as well. You have to admit, though, that Taeja's macro games against Protoss just seem to work better than other terran players.
Alright, so just leaving greater concerns about the MU for a moment - I really think that Protoss will have to switch up it's lategame somehow to account for the threat of the SCV-pull. Either to earlier storm, to a more conservative playstyle, to greater numbers of colossi or to aggression. And I think that will put us in a new place in the metagame as it currently stands. And hopefully it will be more enjoyable.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
Watch INnoVation vs MyungSiK if you believe INnoVation can't play macro. While he was very behind, he showed brilliant control with ghosts and overall army. Even though that game doesn't end well, its one of the most incredible to watch games as a Terran because it shows incredible skill. He simply does choose to take another approach.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
Because TaeJa already had broken wrists, he does not care if he fucks 'em up again with macro TvP /obviousjoke
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
Watch INnoVation vs MyungSiK if you believe INnoVation can't play macro. While he was very behind, he showed brilliant control with ghosts and overall army. Even though that game doesn't end well, its one of the most incredible to watch games as a Terran because it shows incredible skill. He simply does choose to take another approach.
Oh I do believe he can. I believe a lot of terrans could if they actually practiced that hardcore instead of getting an SCV pull build down and doing that one build every single game. Which I honestly believe a ton of terrans are doing.
On September 18 2013 23:46 gedatsu wrote: Oh, Stardust is *that* guy. Now I regret betting MC&Kas.
Just kidding.
I thought the same thing. Stardust made me think Starnan and I bet MC/Kas ezpz. Then i realized what I did, but seems like it's not working out too badly
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
INnoVation, TaeJa. Plural and TaeJa doesn't win every TvP, neither does he do so with macro all the time.
I was mainly just kidding I recognize that Innovation is up there as well. You have to admit, though, that Taeja's macro games against Protoss just seem to work better than other terran players.
I don't know, most Protoss simply die to INnoVation because he has a different style. TaeJa has insanely good ghost control, I realize he is a very good Terran but I also do watch those games. His 3-0 against Rain for example was no series I would put huge value into. Rain played absolutely terrible and way below his standard. I realize you always play as good as your opponent allows, but Rain does huge mistakes he usually doesn't do especially on whirlwind. So while I don't take away credit from TaeJa, I still have to point out that was no spot on series by Rain.
In addition TaeJa is one of the Terrans that is still very greedy because he is not really afraid or concerend about all ins it seems. 3 CC double ebay for instance. While it can work, I can guarantee that lots of Protoss will also kill him even though we have seen he held it against sOs. TaeJa, Bomber, Polt often times take risks in TvP that pay off - while that is their style and perfectly fine, I feel like you should be able to win a TvP without taking the risk of your army b eing instantly shot down when your 4-5 medivac drops get repelled. For reference Polt vs First was absolute smackdown once Polt couldn't drop and his style got shut down.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
Nah, you are all super stubborn and hate change, like every other SC2 pro in the world. Someone puts in a new maps and everyone goes "Who moved my Cheese? I hate learning new maps! Wait, why can't I just do my standard builds? I have to learn/make up new build? Who moved my cheese?"
I feel charmed that you imply I am a top Terran. While I am not, I am pretty sure the top Terrans around the world are talking to their top Protoss counterparts and I am pretty sure that by now they have tried a ton of shit, but they stick to things they know will eventually work out or at least to a percentage work out (scv pull timings for instance). Do you really believe pros are not trying different shit?
Yes and no. I think a lot of pros try stuff, but figuring out stuff that works and applying it to every game is a totally different things. I also think that SC2 players(in general) are creatures of habit and are prone to getting stuck in a rut or throwing up their hands and saying "its impossible". As I said before, there was an WCS NA game where the terran faster stim and just when full man mode and tanked the cannon while kiting the protoss units and murdered the nexus. The trick was clearly map dependant(I think it was on Belshire, but don't quote me) and very dependant on the protoss build and the number of units(the protoss went fast tech with low sentries), but it worked.
Would it work again? Who knows? But I do know one thing. The nexus cannon has a fixed fire rate and fixed damage and there is an amount of pressure it can't stop without the support of units. Its the meta game, it will shift.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Then he 2-0'd sOs who are seen as better than both. What's your point here?
To be fair, there seems to only have a few terran who come around to innovate things. Hellion opening Mvp mech Raven tech switch Mass ghost turtle in tvz
Many of which is done by mvp, I am just waiting on him to innovate things.
And top level players don't really mean they will innovate builds. Korean scene took months to pick up Infestor opening.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
INnoVation, TaeJa. Plural and TaeJa doesn't win every TvP, neither does he do so with macro all the time.
I was mainly just kidding I recognize that Innovation is up there as well. You have to admit, though, that Taeja's macro games against Protoss just seem to work better than other terran players.
I don't know, most Protoss simply die to INnoVation because he has a different style. TaeJa has insanely good ghost control, I realize he is a very good Terran but I also do watch those games. His 3-0 against Rain for example was no series I would put huge value into. Rain played absolutely terrible and way below his standard. I realize you always play as good as your opponent allows, but Rain does huge mistakes he usually doesn't do especially on whirlwind. So while I don't take away credit from TaeJa, I still have to point out that was no spot on series by Rain.
In addition TaeJa is one of the Terrans that is still very greedy because he is not really afraid or concerend about all ins it seems. 3 CC double ebay for instance. While it can work, I can guarantee that lots of Protoss will also kill him even though we have seen he held it against sOs. TaeJa, Bomber, Polt often times take risks in TvP that pay off - while that is their style and perfectly fine, I feel like you should be able to win a TvP without taking the risk of your army b eing instantly shot down when your 4-5 medivac drops get repelled. For reference Polt vs First was absolute smackdown once Polt couldn't drop and his style got shut down.
Find it pretty hard to do anything but agree with what you said here. Well put!
On September 19 2013 02:39 ETisME wrote: To be fair, there seems to only have a few terran who come around to innovate things. Hellion opening Mvp mech Raven tech switch Mass ghost turtle in tvz
Many of which is done by mvp, I am just waiting on him to innovate things.
And top level players don't really mean they will innovate builds. Korean scene took months to pick up Infestor opening.
Ironically, Innovation used to not be particularly innovative with his playstyle . Although I definitely think he has come up with a unique flavor now. And that flavor is death.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Then he 2-0'd sOs who are seen as better than both. What's your point here?
sOs is seen better than Squirtle in PvT? sOs has the image of being a freewin to Terran basically. In addition - sOs let a marine scout his allin and didn't focus vikings with his stalkers. While it was a brilliant hold from TaeJa, it was also a fluke by sOs.
On September 19 2013 02:39 ETisME wrote: To be fair, there seems to only have a few terran who come around to innovate things. Hellion opening Mvp mech Raven tech switch Mass ghost turtle in tvz
Many of which is done by mvp, I am just waiting on him to innovate things.
And top level players don't really mean they will innovate builds. Korean scene took months to pick up Infestor opening.
As I said before, a number of SC2 players are creatures of habit. Idra(even though he whined a lot) admitted he was not a creative player and had a hard time coming up with builds. Then you have players like TLO or MC, who are just willing to do crazy shit and play with peoples minds to get a win.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Then he 2-0'd sOs who are seen as better than both. What's your point here?
sOs is seen better than Squirtle in PvT? sOs has the image of being a freewin to Terran basically. In addition - sOs let a marine scout his allin and didn't focus vikings with his stalkers. While it was a brilliant hold from TaeJa, it was also a fluke by sOs.
2nd game I don't even want to comment on.
Funniest thing about that freewin for terran is 2-0ing Bomber and 2-1ing TaeJa in season 1 Ro16. I always thought that flying is more suitable for that free win for terran image, yet even he cheesed out inno in that spl match.
Jeez, i find it amazing i can watch Code S and GSTL from Korea with no issues , yet a tournament held in my own region has repeated issues. Stream down today and yesterday Twitch lag
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Then he 2-0'd sOs who are seen as better than both. What's your point here?
sOs is seen better than Squirtle in PvT? sOs has the image of being a freewin to Terran basically. In addition - sOs let a marine scout his allin and didn't focus vikings with his stalkers. While it was a brilliant hold from TaeJa, it was also a fluke by sOs.
2nd game I don't even want to comment on.
sOs is ranked third on Aligulac for PvT, (behind Squirtle and Super, so nice catch) but he certainly can't be seen as a "freewin" against Terran.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Then he 2-0'd sOs who are seen as better than both. What's your point here?
My point is precisely that a few games are not enough to hail him as the flagship of the TvP armada. And on a side note, it's particularly hilarious to see countless people quoting the Whirlwind game as an example of lategame TvP being fine, when he needed like 15 minuts to laboriously finish off Rain who was vastly behind from the midgame.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Then he 2-0'd sOs who are seen as better than both. What's your point here?
sOs is seen better than Squirtle in PvT? sOs has the image of being a freewin to Terran basically. In addition - sOs let a marine scout his allin and didn't focus vikings with his stalkers. While it was a brilliant hold from TaeJa, it was also a fluke by sOs.
2nd game I don't even want to comment on.
sOs is ranked third on Aligulac for PvT, (behind Squirtle and Super, so nice catch) but he certainly can't be seen as a "freewin" against Terran.
I didn't call him that. He said it himself.. at Dreamhack. He said his image of PvT is very weak/freewin if I remember correctly. I think he is a big suprise, either very good or very bad.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Then he 2-0'd sOs who are seen as better than both. What's your point here?
sOs is seen better than Squirtle in PvT? sOs has the image of being a freewin to Terran basically. In addition - sOs let a marine scout his allin and didn't focus vikings with his stalkers. While it was a brilliant hold from TaeJa, it was also a fluke by sOs.
2nd game I don't even want to comment on.
sOs is ranked third on Aligulac for PvT, (behind Squirtle and Super, so nice catch) but he certainly can't be seen as a "freewin" against Terran.
I didn't call him that. He said it himself.. at Dreamhack. He said his image of PvT is very weak/freewin if I remember correctly. I think he is a big suprise, either very good or very bad.
Players often over exaggerate their weaknesses in interviews. Self deprecation is pretty common.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Then he 2-0'd sOs who are seen as better than both. What's your point here?
My point is precisely that a few games are not enough to hail him as the flagship of the TvP armada. And on a side note, it's particularly hilarious to see countless people quoting the Whirlwind game as an example of lategame TvP being fine, when he needed like 15 minuts to laboriously finish off Rain who was vastly behind from the midgame.
But that just shows that Rain can play scrappy and hold on in a game that he is behind in.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Then he 2-0'd sOs who are seen as better than both. What's your point here?
sOs is seen better than Squirtle in PvT? sOs has the image of being a freewin to Terran basically. In addition - sOs let a marine scout his allin and didn't focus vikings with his stalkers. While it was a brilliant hold from TaeJa, it was also a fluke by sOs.
2nd game I don't even want to comment on.
sOs is ranked third on Aligulac for PvT, (behind Squirtle and Super, so nice catch) but he certainly can't be seen as a "freewin" against Terran.
I didn't call him that. He said it himself.. at Dreamhack. He said his image of PvT is very weak/freewin if I remember correctly. I think he is a big suprise, either very good or very bad.
So inconsistent, he is more consistent in inconsistency than Bomber.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him.
I predict every terran saying that wrists are more important that TvP winrate now ;D
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
10 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Winners' Match Game 1?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
On September 19 2013 02:29 NarutO wrote: I feel charmed that you imply I am a top Terran. While I am not, I am pretty sure the top Terrans around the world are talking to their top Protoss counterparts and I am pretty sure that by now they have tried a ton of shit, but they stick to things they know will eventually work out or at least to a percentage work out (scv pull timings for instance). Do you really believe pros are not trying different shit?
Yes ? Pros are pros and it's their full time job. But they're not all smart and omniscient. That's why they need coach or talk to each other. That's also how players sometimes find a solution or a build "out of nowhere" (I mean that goes against current metagame). You're overestimating pros, they're human too. They don't always see and try everything. And sometimes they also don't want to play or learn a style they don't like just because. It's not always as rational and methodic as you imply.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:19 ETisME wrote: stardust soooooo greedy wow
Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
On September 19 2013 02:52 Pursuit_ wrote: Would have been game ending if a Terran made the mistake MC just did
To be fair, MC was already well ahead of Kas, so mistakes have less impact.
Yeah dont get me wrong, MC outplayed Kas leading up to that and deserved the win.
But Terran armies are so fragile and rely a lot on being spread out to survive. Right clicking past your opponents army = your whole army is dead if AoE is out.
On September 19 2013 02:52 Pursuit_ wrote: Would have been game ending if a Terran made the mistake MC just did
To be fair, MC was already well ahead of Kas, so mistakes have less impact.
Yeah dont get me wrong, MC outplayed Kas leading up to that and deserved the win.
But Terran armies are so fragile and rely a lot on being spread out to survive. Right clicking past your opponents army = your whole army is dead if AoE is out.
On September 19 2013 02:20 Plansix wrote: [quote] Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:20 Plansix wrote: [quote] Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
He is under the impression that he needs to play as well as taeja, rather than learn from his play style and try to play to that style.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:53 geokilla wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:48 TheDwf wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:42 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:37 TheDwf wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:29 Darkhoarse wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:22 NarutO wrote: [quote]
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
He is under the impression that he needs to play as well as taeja, rather than learn from his play style and try to play to that style.
This style is well known to every macro terran in EU GM, you need to play as well as TaeJa to pull it off consistently though/
On September 19 2013 02:29 Darkhoarse wrote: [quote] The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:53 geokilla wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:48 TheDwf wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:42 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:37 TheDwf wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:29 Darkhoarse wrote: [quote] The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
He is under the impression that he needs to play as well as taeja, rather than learn from his play style and try to play to that style.
This style is well known to every macro terran in EU GM, you need to play as well as TaeJa to pull it off consistently though/
Yeah but I'm pretty sure you don't need to be as good as Taeja unless you play the level of opponents that he plays >_>
On September 19 2013 02:29 Darkhoarse wrote: [quote] The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:53 geokilla wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:48 TheDwf wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:42 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:37 TheDwf wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:29 Darkhoarse wrote: [quote] The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
He is under the impression that he needs to play as well as taeja, rather than learn from his play style and try to play to that style.
This style is well known to every macro terran in EU GM, you need to play as well as TaeJa to pull it off consistently though/
I doubt that, your opponents are just as terrible as you are when you are on the ladder, so I don't think you need to be the level of a Code S terran to pull it off against them.
On September 19 2013 02:29 NarutO wrote: I feel charmed that you imply I am a top Terran. While I am not, I am pretty sure the top Terrans around the world are talking to their top Protoss counterparts and I am pretty sure that by now they have tried a ton of shit, but they stick to things they know will eventually work out or at least to a percentage work out (scv pull timings for instance). Do you really believe pros are not trying different shit?
Yes ? Pros are pros and it's their full time job. But they're not all smart and omniscient. That's why they need coach or talk to each other. That's also how players sometimes find a solution or a build "out of nowhere" (I mean that goes against current metagame). You're overestimating pros, they're human too. They don't always see and try everything. And sometimes they also don't want to play or learn a style they don't like just because. It's not always as rational and methodic as you imply.
If you are talking about ONE pro, I would agree with you. But it seems to be a majority of them. And we cannot judge by tournaments games because you simply don't TRY builds in WCS or Dreamhacks. For example, when Mvp did his hellion banshee strat vs zergs, do you think he just tried it for the first time? It is probably something he tried and practice and then fine tuned against his Zerg team mate for weeks.
Seeing the SCVs pulls just means pros have more success with it in practice than other strats. I am sure when Protoss learns to deal with it better, then terrans will do it less.
On September 19 2013 02:31 DarkLordOlli wrote: [quote]
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:53 geokilla wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:48 TheDwf wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:42 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:37 TheDwf wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:31 DarkLordOlli wrote: [quote]
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
He is under the impression that he needs to play as well as taeja, rather than learn from his play style and try to play to that style.
This style is well known to every macro terran in EU GM, you need to play as well as TaeJa to pull it off consistently though/
I doubt that, your opponents are just as terrible as you are when you are on the ladder, so I don't think you need to be the level of a Code S terran to pull it off against them.
That is the point. While you will get ultimatively more often punished for greed compared to TaeJa, in addition while Terran scales insanely with skill, Protoss does not. It takes unbelievably more effort to be as good as TaeJa and to control ghosts as well and spot on in addition to all the smaller parts compared to Protoss who can rely on good builds. The engagements will favor Protoss as well, as the engagement for Protoss is usually easier compared to Terran.
While this is no issue or less of an issue of you reach top level, it is a huge issue on the lower levels of the top level.
I do recall from an interview or something where the toss basically said Taeja is this good in tvp is because he has amazing ghost control. That was quite a while ago though, back when egtl was playing in proleague
On September 19 2013 02:37 TheDwf wrote: [quote] TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:53 geokilla wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:48 TheDwf wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:42 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:37 TheDwf wrote: [quote] TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
He is under the impression that he needs to play as well as taeja, rather than learn from his play style and try to play to that style.
This style is well known to every macro terran in EU GM, you need to play as well as TaeJa to pull it off consistently though/
I doubt that, your opponents are just as terrible as you are when you are on the ladder, so I don't think you need to be the level of a Code S terran to pull it off against them.
That is the point. While you will get ultimatively more often punished for greed compared to TaeJa, in addition while Terran scales insanely with skill, Protoss does not. It takes unbelievably more effort to be as good as TaeJa and to control ghosts as well and spot on in addition to all the smaller parts compared to Protoss who can rely on good builds. The engagements will favor Protoss as well, as the engagement for Protoss is usually easier compared to Terran.
While this is no issue or less of an issue of you reach top level, it is a huge issue on the lower levels of the top level.
Ok, now I am just hearing excuses as to why TeaJa is winning and why you can't. If your excuse is that you are limited by your race, switch and become a champion. Or say in your current race and have a built in excuse for not winning.
On September 19 2013 02:20 Plansix wrote: [quote] Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:20 Plansix wrote: [quote] Its how protoss roll until some terran figures out how to punish it. Its only a matter of time.
Someone might think the top Terrans would have found a way by now
The top terran singular. Taeja. He has
This. Taeja isn't mechanically superior to someone like Innovation for example. He isn't a hundred times smarter or a hundred times better at controlling his units. Why does Taeja know how to TvP macro and everybody else doesn't?
TaeJa won one series against Rain, and now every Protoss and their mother quotes him as the savior of TvP match-up. Proceeds to be 0:2ed by Squirtle in IEM Qualifier, drops a map to Welmu at Dreamhack Bucharest.
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
To be fair,
11-11 wasn't impossible to deal with before barracks nerf TvZ late game wasn't impossible before snipe nerf TvP wasn't impossible before EMP nerf TvZ wasn't impossible before fungals nerf
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
13%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
13%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
8 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Winners' Match Game 2?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend Winners' Match Game 3?
★★★- Good game (5)
56%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (2)
22%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (1)
11%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
11%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (0)
0%
9 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Winners' Match Game 3?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
On September 19 2013 02:42 DarkLordOlli wrote: [quote]
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:53 geokilla wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:48 TheDwf wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:42 DarkLordOlli wrote: [quote]
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
He is under the impression that he needs to play as well as taeja, rather than learn from his play style and try to play to that style.
This style is well known to every macro terran in EU GM, you need to play as well as TaeJa to pull it off consistently though/
I doubt that, your opponents are just as terrible as you are when you are on the ladder, so I don't think you need to be the level of a Code S terran to pull it off against them.
That is the point. While you will get ultimatively more often punished for greed compared to TaeJa, in addition while Terran scales insanely with skill, Protoss does not. It takes unbelievably more effort to be as good as TaeJa and to control ghosts as well and spot on in addition to all the smaller parts compared to Protoss who can rely on good builds. The engagements will favor Protoss as well, as the engagement for Protoss is usually easier compared to Terran.
While this is no issue or less of an issue of you reach top level, it is a huge issue on the lower levels of the top level.
Ok, now I am just hearing excuses as to why TeaJa is winning and why you can't. If your excuse is that you are limited by your race, switch and become a champion. Or say in your current race and have a built in excuse for not winning.
We are winning. We're just pulling SCVs and ending it early rather than go into an extremely fragile lategame that requires you to get just as far ahead and not lose a single engagement.
On September 19 2013 02:42 DarkLordOlli wrote: [quote]
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:53 geokilla wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:48 TheDwf wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:42 DarkLordOlli wrote: [quote]
Taeja's TvP has been amazing ever since WoL. And his style hasn't changed at all. It's still a heavy aggressive midgame not necessarily dropping all over the place but constantly threatening it. And, this is the most important thing probably, he scans observers. You can hurt protoss if you don't allow them to see everything, it keeps their robo busy and lategame you win the game with Ghost/Viking because hey, he doesn't see half your army.
Taeja just plays straight up TvP and wins. He's done so ever since. Losing that total of 3 maps you stated doesn't mean that his TvP isn't fucking amazing.
It's got nothing to do with saving TvP. TvP doesn't need to be saved, terrans just need to learn how to play a proper macro game vs protoss.
Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
He is under the impression that he needs to play as well as taeja, rather than learn from his play style and try to play to that style.
This style is well known to every macro terran in EU GM, you need to play as well as TaeJa to pull it off consistently though/
I doubt that, your opponents are just as terrible as you are when you are on the ladder, so I don't think you need to be the level of a Code S terran to pull it off against them.
That is the point. While you will get ultimatively more often punished for greed compared to TaeJa, in addition while Terran scales insanely with skill, Protoss does not. It takes unbelievably more effort to be as good as TaeJa and to control ghosts as well and spot on in addition to all the smaller parts compared to Protoss who can rely on good builds. The engagements will favor Protoss as well, as the engagement for Protoss is usually easier compared to Terran.
While this is no issue or less of an issue of you reach top level, it is a huge issue on the lower levels of the top level.
Ok, now I am just hearing excuses as to why TeaJa is winning and why you can't. If your excuse is that you are limited by your race, switch and become a champion. Or say in your current race and have a built in excuse for not winning.
No, you are being ignorant. It takes more effort to control the Terran army compared to the Protoss army. While this in itself is no issue for a progamer, the issue of TvP lies within its early game. Personally I never did complain as I was very good in Ghost/Viking (thanks for the insult btw) but most of the time you don't get to the stage of a lot of ghost/viking, because you simply have weaker midgame compared to WoL, Protoss has stronger midgame and earlier lategame and often time will end up killing you before ghost/viking. Thats exactly one of the - if not the main reason that we see SCV pulls.
On September 19 2013 02:48 TheDwf wrote: [quote] Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:53 geokilla wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:48 TheDwf wrote: [quote] Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
He is under the impression that he needs to play as well as taeja, rather than learn from his play style and try to play to that style.
This style is well known to every macro terran in EU GM, you need to play as well as TaeJa to pull it off consistently though/
I doubt that, your opponents are just as terrible as you are when you are on the ladder, so I don't think you need to be the level of a Code S terran to pull it off against them.
That is the point. While you will get ultimatively more often punished for greed compared to TaeJa, in addition while Terran scales insanely with skill, Protoss does not. It takes unbelievably more effort to be as good as TaeJa and to control ghosts as well and spot on in addition to all the smaller parts compared to Protoss who can rely on good builds. The engagements will favor Protoss as well, as the engagement for Protoss is usually easier compared to Terran.
While this is no issue or less of an issue of you reach top level, it is a huge issue on the lower levels of the top level.
Ok, now I am just hearing excuses as to why TeaJa is winning and why you can't. If your excuse is that you are limited by your race, switch and become a champion. Or say in your current race and have a built in excuse for not winning.
No, you are being ignorant. It takes more effort to control the Terran army compared to the Protoss army. While this in itself is no issue for a progamer, the issue of TvP lies within its early game. Personally I never did complain as I was very good in Ghost/Viking (thanks for the insult btw) but most of the time you don't get to the stage of a lot of ghost/viking, because you simply have weaker midgame compared to WoL, Protoss has stronger midgame and earlier lategame and often time will end up killing you before ghost/viking. Thats exactly one of the - if not the main reason that we see SCV pulls.
TL going to ban you for "balance whining' even though you're a respected member of the community. Just like how they banned me because I apparently balance whined last week.
On September 19 2013 02:48 TheDwf wrote: [quote] Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:53 geokilla wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:48 TheDwf wrote: [quote] Please go ahead and teach us the way, I'm sure you know so much better than most Code S Terrans. (;
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
He is under the impression that he needs to play as well as taeja, rather than learn from his play style and try to play to that style.
This style is well known to every macro terran in EU GM, you need to play as well as TaeJa to pull it off consistently though/
I doubt that, your opponents are just as terrible as you are when you are on the ladder, so I don't think you need to be the level of a Code S terran to pull it off against them.
That is the point. While you will get ultimatively more often punished for greed compared to TaeJa, in addition while Terran scales insanely with skill, Protoss does not. It takes unbelievably more effort to be as good as TaeJa and to control ghosts as well and spot on in addition to all the smaller parts compared to Protoss who can rely on good builds. The engagements will favor Protoss as well, as the engagement for Protoss is usually easier compared to Terran.
While this is no issue or less of an issue of you reach top level, it is a huge issue on the lower levels of the top level.
Ok, now I am just hearing excuses as to why TeaJa is winning and why you can't. If your excuse is that you are limited by your race, switch and become a champion. Or say in your current race and have a built in excuse for not winning.
No, you are being ignorant. It takes more effort to control the Terran army compared to the Protoss army. While this in itself is no issue for a progamer, the issue of TvP lies within its early game. Personally I never did complain as I was very good in Ghost/Viking (thanks for the insult btw) but most of the time you don't get to the stage of a lot of ghost/viking, because you simply have weaker midgame compared to WoL, Protoss has stronger midgame and earlier lategame and often time will end up killing you before ghost/viking. Thats exactly one of the - if not the main reason that we see SCV pulls.
Sorry for being harsh, but I have grown tired of the mob of terrans whining about how protoss and how they have to play and claiming they need to be SO much better than the protoss to win. It gets as old as Idra whining about terran when playing zerg and claiming that terran can be SO much worse than the zerg and still winning.
Sorry for taking a dig at you and derailing the thread with balance discussions. Back to MC being a boss and the closeting thing we have to pro wrestler in SC2.
On September 19 2013 02:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: [quote]
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:53 geokilla wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: [quote]
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
He is under the impression that he needs to play as well as taeja, rather than learn from his play style and try to play to that style.
This style is well known to every macro terran in EU GM, you need to play as well as TaeJa to pull it off consistently though/
I doubt that, your opponents are just as terrible as you are when you are on the ladder, so I don't think you need to be the level of a Code S terran to pull it off against them.
That is the point. While you will get ultimatively more often punished for greed compared to TaeJa, in addition while Terran scales insanely with skill, Protoss does not. It takes unbelievably more effort to be as good as TaeJa and to control ghosts as well and spot on in addition to all the smaller parts compared to Protoss who can rely on good builds. The engagements will favor Protoss as well, as the engagement for Protoss is usually easier compared to Terran.
While this is no issue or less of an issue of you reach top level, it is a huge issue on the lower levels of the top level.
Ok, now I am just hearing excuses as to why TeaJa is winning and why you can't. If your excuse is that you are limited by your race, switch and become a champion. Or say in your current race and have a built in excuse for not winning.
No, you are being ignorant. It takes more effort to control the Terran army compared to the Protoss army. While this in itself is no issue for a progamer, the issue of TvP lies within its early game. Personally I never did complain as I was very good in Ghost/Viking (thanks for the insult btw) but most of the time you don't get to the stage of a lot of ghost/viking, because you simply have weaker midgame compared to WoL, Protoss has stronger midgame and earlier lategame and often time will end up killing you before ghost/viking. Thats exactly one of the - if not the main reason that we see SCV pulls.
Sorry for being harsh, but I have grown tired of the mob of terrans whining about how protoss and how they have to play and claiming they need to be SO much better than the protoss to win. It gets as old as Idra whining about terran when playing zerg and claiming that terran can be SO much worse than the zerg and still winning.
Sorry for taking a dig at you and derailing the thread with balance discussions. Back to MC being a boss and the closeting thing we have to pro wrestler in SC2.
Is there any other way to play TvP then? Please enlighten the Terran community.
On September 19 2013 03:14 SkullZ9 wrote: Yeah and in other streams, we cannot see the interviews ...
I can't see anything on every stream... I could buy the ticket for source but if it's going to lag like that ... i don't want to throw money by the window
On September 19 2013 02:52 TheDwf wrote: [quote] You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:53 geokilla wrote: [quote] If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
He is under the impression that he needs to play as well as taeja, rather than learn from his play style and try to play to that style.
This style is well known to every macro terran in EU GM, you need to play as well as TaeJa to pull it off consistently though/
I doubt that, your opponents are just as terrible as you are when you are on the ladder, so I don't think you need to be the level of a Code S terran to pull it off against them.
That is the point. While you will get ultimatively more often punished for greed compared to TaeJa, in addition while Terran scales insanely with skill, Protoss does not. It takes unbelievably more effort to be as good as TaeJa and to control ghosts as well and spot on in addition to all the smaller parts compared to Protoss who can rely on good builds. The engagements will favor Protoss as well, as the engagement for Protoss is usually easier compared to Terran.
While this is no issue or less of an issue of you reach top level, it is a huge issue on the lower levels of the top level.
Ok, now I am just hearing excuses as to why TeaJa is winning and why you can't. If your excuse is that you are limited by your race, switch and become a champion. Or say in your current race and have a built in excuse for not winning.
No, you are being ignorant. It takes more effort to control the Terran army compared to the Protoss army. While this in itself is no issue for a progamer, the issue of TvP lies within its early game. Personally I never did complain as I was very good in Ghost/Viking (thanks for the insult btw) but most of the time you don't get to the stage of a lot of ghost/viking, because you simply have weaker midgame compared to WoL, Protoss has stronger midgame and earlier lategame and often time will end up killing you before ghost/viking. Thats exactly one of the - if not the main reason that we see SCV pulls.
Sorry for being harsh, but I have grown tired of the mob of terrans whining about how protoss and how they have to play and claiming they need to be SO much better than the protoss to win. It gets as old as Idra whining about terran when playing zerg and claiming that terran can be SO much worse than the zerg and still winning.
Sorry for taking a dig at you and derailing the thread with balance discussions. Back to MC being a boss and the closeting thing we have to pro wrestler in SC2.
Is there any other way to play TvP then? Please enlighten the Terran community.
Can you stop this useless and annoying discussion ?
On September 19 2013 02:52 TheDwf wrote: [quote] You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:53 geokilla wrote: [quote] If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
He is under the impression that he needs to play as well as taeja, rather than learn from his play style and try to play to that style.
This style is well known to every macro terran in EU GM, you need to play as well as TaeJa to pull it off consistently though/
I doubt that, your opponents are just as terrible as you are when you are on the ladder, so I don't think you need to be the level of a Code S terran to pull it off against them.
That is the point. While you will get ultimatively more often punished for greed compared to TaeJa, in addition while Terran scales insanely with skill, Protoss does not. It takes unbelievably more effort to be as good as TaeJa and to control ghosts as well and spot on in addition to all the smaller parts compared to Protoss who can rely on good builds. The engagements will favor Protoss as well, as the engagement for Protoss is usually easier compared to Terran.
While this is no issue or less of an issue of you reach top level, it is a huge issue on the lower levels of the top level.
Ok, now I am just hearing excuses as to why TeaJa is winning and why you can't. If your excuse is that you are limited by your race, switch and become a champion. Or say in your current race and have a built in excuse for not winning.
No, you are being ignorant. It takes more effort to control the Terran army compared to the Protoss army. While this in itself is no issue for a progamer, the issue of TvP lies within its early game. Personally I never did complain as I was very good in Ghost/Viking (thanks for the insult btw) but most of the time you don't get to the stage of a lot of ghost/viking, because you simply have weaker midgame compared to WoL, Protoss has stronger midgame and earlier lategame and often time will end up killing you before ghost/viking. Thats exactly one of the - if not the main reason that we see SCV pulls.
Sorry for being harsh, but I have grown tired of the mob of terrans whining about how protoss and how they have to play and claiming they need to be SO much better than the protoss to win. It gets as old as Idra whining about terran when playing zerg and claiming that terran can be SO much worse than the zerg and still winning.
Sorry for taking a dig at you and derailing the thread with balance discussions. Back to MC being a boss and the closeting thing we have to pro wrestler in SC2.
Is there any other way to play TvP then? Please enlighten the Terran community.
Don't whine like Idra did in WoL is a good place to start. After you master that mindset, study terrans that are winning and seek to learn their magic. And with that, I am done with this discussion.
On September 19 2013 02:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: [quote]
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
You forgot "just" in your first sentence, I am disappointed.
Who said it was easy? It's hard as shit. But it's definitely not impossible like a lot of terran players claim.
And if you honestly think it's too hard for Code S players to copy then I don't know what to tell you.
On September 19 2013 02:53 geokilla wrote:
On September 19 2013 02:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: [quote]
Watch Taeja and play like him. There's about a year worth of VODs out there with him playing the same style and trashing protoss with it.
If we can all play like Taeja, then we won't be watching WCS. We'd be playing in the WCS.
I don't see the point of your argument.
He is under the impression that he needs to play as well as taeja, rather than learn from his play style and try to play to that style.
This style is well known to every macro terran in EU GM, you need to play as well as TaeJa to pull it off consistently though/
I doubt that, your opponents are just as terrible as you are when you are on the ladder, so I don't think you need to be the level of a Code S terran to pull it off against them.
That is the point. While you will get ultimatively more often punished for greed compared to TaeJa, in addition while Terran scales insanely with skill, Protoss does not. It takes unbelievably more effort to be as good as TaeJa and to control ghosts as well and spot on in addition to all the smaller parts compared to Protoss who can rely on good builds. The engagements will favor Protoss as well, as the engagement for Protoss is usually easier compared to Terran.
While this is no issue or less of an issue of you reach top level, it is a huge issue on the lower levels of the top level.
Ok, now I am just hearing excuses as to why TeaJa is winning and why you can't. If your excuse is that you are limited by your race, switch and become a champion. Or say in your current race and have a built in excuse for not winning.
No, you are being ignorant. It takes more effort to control the Terran army compared to the Protoss army. While this in itself is no issue for a progamer, the issue of TvP lies within its early game. Personally I never did complain as I was very good in Ghost/Viking (thanks for the insult btw) but most of the time you don't get to the stage of a lot of ghost/viking, because you simply have weaker midgame compared to WoL, Protoss has stronger midgame and earlier lategame and often time will end up killing you before ghost/viking. Thats exactly one of the - if not the main reason that we see SCV pulls.
TL going to ban you for "balance whining' even though you're a respected member of the community. Just like how they banned me because I apparently balance whined last week.
I don't matyr, I don't insult and I don't believe Protoss doesn't have skill. I simply discuss and point out problems of the match up. While I respect Protoss players and the way they approach the game, I am the last person to not try shit in game, but Protoss players need to eventually listen as well, when a Terran tells them that some stuff isn't working out like they suggest.
While I agree this is not the place to do it, I cannot help it but sometimes rush into it. I apologize. Back to LR.
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (2)
29%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
7 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Losers' Match Game 1?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
On September 19 2013 03:15 geokilla wrote: Is there any other way to play TvP then? Please enlighten the Terran community.
This pretty much sums up the mentality issues of so many players in SC2 community : nobody has found a solution yet so there's no solution. So defeatist and passive, it's really irritating.
Have you ever seen any pro soccer player saying "man I give up, Messi is so imba, let's not even try to play against Barcelona. There is no way to beat him" ? No. How about you manage on your own and copy what you can instead of waiting for a patch, an expansion, or others to find out the way for you ? And do you even play at a level where balance has anything to do with your losses ?
Man, grow up and deal with it instead of whining about how the game is difficult/unbalanced/shitty/anything-you-don't-like. Or play/watch another game. I don't know. But don't sit like a duck expecting Blizzard to patch at every corner anytime there seems to be an issue.
Back on topic. MC like a boss.
Anyone between Kas and Stardust is fine for me as long as Firecake does not make it. This guy is so bm in a bad way, I wouldn't want him to represent EU or France for that matter. It would be too shameful. Thank God, it does not look like he has what it takes to make it through.
On September 19 2013 03:38 Heartland wrote: I do wish for the best for Firecake. Always fun to see new players, even if his style seems like an abominably boring cookie-cutter Zerg style.
On September 19 2013 03:38 Heartland wrote: I do wish for the best for Firecake. Always fun to see new players, even if his style seems like an abominably boring cookie-cutter Zerg style.
On September 19 2013 03:38 Heartland wrote: I do wish for the best for Firecake. Always fun to see new players, even if his style seems like an abominably boring cookie-cutter Zerg style.
Stephano-ish?
Yeah, Stephano never single-handedly changed the entire metagame or anything...
On September 19 2013 03:38 Heartland wrote: I do wish for the best for Firecake. Always fun to see new players, even if his style seems like an abominably boring cookie-cutter Zerg style.
Stephano-ish?
Yeah, Stephano never single-handedly changed the entire metagame or anything...
He did, but his builds were abominably boring cookie-cutter Zerg builds :D
On September 19 2013 03:43 Bagi wrote: Anyone else got this bad feeling that Kas is gonna lose to cheese in the final matches despite completely owning Stardust the first time?
Pretty much describes the biggest problem with GSL style groups
On September 19 2013 03:38 Heartland wrote: I do wish for the best for Firecake. Always fun to see new players, even if his style seems like an abominably boring cookie-cutter Zerg style.
Stephano-ish?
Yeah, Stephano never single-handedly changed the entire metagame or anything...
He did, but his builds were abominably boring cookie-cutter Zerg builds :D
12 minute roach max while a cool build to study was the worst thing to watch ever until protoss finally learnt to hold it.
On September 19 2013 03:38 Heartland wrote: I do wish for the best for Firecake. Always fun to see new players, even if his style seems like an abominably boring cookie-cutter Zerg style.
Stephano-ish?
Yeah, Stephano never single-handedly changed the entire metagame or anything...
He did, but his builds were abominably boring cookie-cutter Zerg builds :D
12 minute roach max while a cool build to study was the worst thing to watch ever until protoss finally learnt to hold it.
^^ Either way, that late WG research screwed everything up. Funny.
On September 19 2013 03:38 Heartland wrote: I do wish for the best for Firecake. Always fun to see new players, even if his style seems like an abominably boring cookie-cutter Zerg style.
Stephano-ish?
Yeah, Stephano never single-handedly changed the entire metagame or anything...
He did, but his builds were abominably boring cookie-cutter Zerg builds :D
12 minute roach max while a cool build to study was the worst thing to watch ever until protoss finally learnt to hold it.
And Stephano himself brought a certain flair just by having a sick star sense and a beautiful sense of engagements. But remove all that and all you got is three bases and roaches into more bases and infestors with the roaches.
On September 19 2013 03:43 Bagi wrote: Anyone else got this bad feeling that Kas is gonna lose to cheese in the final matches despite completely owning Stardust the first time?
Pretty much describes the biggest problem with GSL style groups
To avoid that you'd need extended series or round robin groups, both of which have their own problems. There's no perfect group system but GSL style does a good job.
On September 19 2013 03:43 Bagi wrote: Anyone else got this bad feeling that Kas is gonna lose to cheese in the final matches despite completely owning Stardust the first time?
Pretty much describes the biggest problem with GSL style groups
To avoid that you'd need extended series or round robin groups, both of which have their own problems. There's no perfect group system but GSL style does a good job.
Round robin gives everyone the same chances to advance while GSL groups are biased towards the starting matchups.
But I wont get into this now, because most people are so horribly biased towards GSL groups and I dont have the patience for that
On September 19 2013 03:49 NarutO wrote: If he would have sent one overlord to the main with 4 banelings in the meantime, it would look brilliant for him.
On September 19 2013 03:43 Bagi wrote: Anyone else got this bad feeling that Kas is gonna lose to cheese in the final matches despite completely owning Stardust the first time?
Pretty much describes the biggest problem with GSL style groups
To avoid that you'd need extended series or round robin groups, both of which have their own problems. There's no perfect group system but GSL style does a good job.
Round robin gives everyone the same chances to advance while GSL groups are biased towards the starting matchups.
But I wont get into this now, because most people are so horribly biased towards GSL groups and I dont have the patience for that
People think GSL group as some thing that Gom thought up... while in fact it's your standard double elimination bracket with 4 people.
The # of matches is capped, you have to lose twice, give some relief for cases where top two player are matched together.
However, it doesn't always work out as beautifully because better player doesn't always win, though same thing apply to round robin. Round robin is not necessarily better at finding out who is the best player in the group are, it just give the impression of such because more games are played.
On September 19 2013 03:58 BlackCompany wrote: Well unless Firecake gets all colossi for free and can chain fungal the stalkers.. there is little to none chance to win this
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
17%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
17%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
6 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Losers' Match Game 2?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend Losers' Match Game 3?
★★★- Good game (4)
67%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
17%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (1)
17%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
6 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Losers' Match Game 3?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
17%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
17%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
6 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Losers' Match Game 2?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend Losers' Match Game 3?
★★★- Good game (4)
67%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
17%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (1)
17%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
6 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Losers' Match Game 3?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
On September 19 2013 04:04 Schelim wrote: i hope Kas wins against Stardust again... but i like Stardust too... i'm torn tbh
Thats like excatly my thoughts lol
i knew from the start that this group would suck cause i like both of them and of course the Bosstoss... at least MC and one of them will advance for sure
On September 19 2013 04:04 Schelim wrote: i hope Kas wins against Stardust again... but i like Stardust too... i'm torn tbh
Thats like excatly my thoughts lol
i knew from the start that this group would suck cause i like both of them and of course the Bosstoss... at least MC and one of them will advance for sure
My bets were on Stardust/MC going out of the group, i was kind of surprised that Kas 2-0ed Stardust in their first meeting. Its nice to see that he shows good form, i havnt seen a lot from him lately. Nothing against Firecake, but this group was kind of win/win situation because it was about 99% sure that 2 of kas/mc/stardust would get out
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
11%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (1)
11%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
11%
9 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Final Match Game 1?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
On September 19 2013 04:22 Cheren wrote: "Redeyehd: you really should sign up for RO8 ASAP because when we announce the host, tickets will go like HOT CAKES!"
On September 19 2013 04:22 Cheren wrote: "Redeyehd: you really should sign up for RO8 ASAP because when we announce the host, tickets will go like HOT CAKES!"
It's nice that Stardust has the benefit of having to only win a single BO3 vs Kas. After all he deserves that monumental advantage for besting FireCake.
On September 19 2013 04:22 Cheren wrote: "Redeyehd: you really should sign up for RO8 ASAP because when we announce the host, tickets will go like HOT CAKES!"
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4)
22%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (2)
11%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (1)
6%
18 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Final Match Game 2?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend Final Match Game 3?
★★★- Good game (5)
50%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (2)
20%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
10%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (1)
10%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1)
10%
10 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Final Match Game 3?
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
On September 19 2013 04:36 Sated wrote: I love seeing Terran tears :3
I'm a terran player but I think it's a little funny as well . Wasn't balance that did that it was lack of timing, upgrades, and army control/positioning.
what a severe case of the nerves/being a robotic player
It didn't look like kas knew any other way to play TvP, and when stardust didn't go for a 3rd he was all confused on what to do. if his 1-1 attack thing with the mass vikings doesnt work looks like he doenst know what to do
Maybe you guys can explain what happens to Terran when our 2 base allin doesn't work and now please don't get me started on how that was no 2 base allin/timing from Stardust. Anyways, GGs!
macro/micro/multi-tasking was all not on par with Stardust, couple build order wins and you think you should have won the deciding series? Didn't switch up builds at all, and you think you should have won? lol.
On September 19 2013 04:38 VayneAuthority wrote: what a severe case of the nerves/being a robotic player
It didn't look like kas knew any other way to play TvP, and when stardust didn't go for a 3rd he was all confused on what to do. if his 1-1 attack thing with the mass vikings doesnt work looks like he doenst know what to do
That´s just the new TvP metagame to be honest. It´s pretty much how you play terran currently.
That last fight was lost not because of how Kas handled it but by Kas missing his timing. If you're going to stay on 1/1 then you have to close the game out before protoss gets storm and colossus and before any of the +3 upgrades finish. Kas decided not to do either of these things.
Dissappointing. I like watching Kas play. He always seems to have a couple hundred (and later a couple thousand) more minerals then other terrans).
On September 19 2013 04:38 NarutO wrote: Maybe you guys can explain what happens to Terran when our 2 base allin doesn't work and now please don't get me started on how that was no 2 base allin/timing from Stardust. Anyways, GGs!
Why everytime I see you post it is balance whine? relax man. kas ate those storms and missed his timing, he could have smashed SD if he had gone before storm, i also didn't see a single ghost with his army even though kas had the ghost academy for a good little while.
Kas already knew Stardust didn't have a third, meaning a big all-in'ish attack was coming. He delayed the attack enough, given he was still able to hold after gift wrapping 2 medivacs. Took an unnecessary gamble and paid for it, as there was no way stardust could have attacked into him, trading decently, without the gift.
On September 19 2013 04:38 NarutO wrote: Maybe you guys can explain what happens to Terran when our 2 base allin doesn't work and now please don't get me started on how that was no 2 base allin/timing from Stardust. Anyways, GGs!
Why everytime I see you post it is balance whine? relax man. kas ate those storms and missed his timing, he could have smashed SD if he had gone before storm, i also didn't see a single ghost with his army even though kas had the ghost academy for a good little while.
That was not the point. I don't think he lost because of balance, but the point is after a failed 2 base allin you should be dead. I believe Kas could have went right after, but you will still need to fight against possible photon overcharge and a new colossus. Especially in a defensive position Protoss is very strong. Ofcourse the right thing to do would have been add ghost and let Stardust take his 3rd and engage with ghosts after, but sometimes you feel a 50 supply advantage should do it.
On September 19 2013 04:38 VayneAuthority wrote: what a severe case of the nerves/being a robotic player
It didn't look like kas knew any other way to play TvP, and when stardust didn't go for a 3rd he was all confused on what to do. if his 1-1 attack thing with the mass vikings doesnt work looks like he doenst know what to do
That´s just the new TvP metagame to be honest. It´s pretty much how you play terran currently.
There are plenty of Terrans that build up a strong bio force with good group of ghosts and play a good macro game. Or hellbats with bio like ForGG. Just because the meta game is a bit stale it doesn't mean a players don't go for different compositions.
On September 19 2013 04:39 Popkiller wrote: Hoping ForGG, MC, and duckeok are all in one group. Is that possible?
Just out of curiosity why do you hope this?
Higher chance for a foreign player winning this thing?
Ten to six in favor of the foreigners in the ro16. Interesting! Gotta see how the ro16 groups work out, because you're right, if Koreans are pitted against Koreans we could have a foreigner heavy top 8.
On September 19 2013 04:38 NarutO wrote: Maybe you guys can explain what happens to Terran when our 2 base allin doesn't work and now please don't get me started on how that was no 2 base allin/timing from Stardust. Anyways, GGs!
If the Protoss played as badly as Kas just did, then the Terran would win. That's what happens when you play badly; you lose.
Stop balance whining in LR threads.
Funny coming from you. Also funny comment on the game we just saw. 2 base allin completely missed its timing, got crushed. Applying your comment there, should have lost.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
On September 19 2013 04:38 TaishiCi wrote: sucks to suck kas.
macro/micro/multi-tasking was all not on par with Stardust, couple build order wins and you think you should have won the deciding series? Didn't switch up builds at all, and you think you should have won? lol.
Kas was 12 workers behind after Stardusts attack and maxed out, when Stardust was on 150... But his macro was totally "not on par", right?
On September 19 2013 04:38 NarutO wrote: Maybe you guys can explain what happens to Terran when our 2 base allin doesn't work and now please don't get me started on how that was no 2 base allin/timing from Stardust. Anyways, GGs!
If the Protoss played as badly as Kas just did, then the Terran would win. That's what happens when you play badly; you lose.
Stop balance whining in LR threads.
Funny coming from you. Also funny comment on the game we just saw. 2 base allin completely missed its timing, got crushed. Applying your comment there, should have lost.
Didnt he kill a ton of workers with that "failed" attack? I think kas was down something like 48 to 30 workers?
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
On September 19 2013 04:38 NarutO wrote: Maybe you guys can explain what happens to Terran when our 2 base allin doesn't work and now please don't get me started on how that was no 2 base allin/timing from Stardust. Anyways, GGs!
Why everytime I see you post it is balance whine? relax man. kas ate those storms and missed his timing, he could have smashed SD if he had gone before storm, i also didn't see a single ghost with his army even though kas had the ghost academy for a good little while.
That was not the point. I don't think he lost because of balance, but the point is after a failed 2 base allin you should be dead. I believe Kas could have went right after, but you will still need to fight against possible photon overcharge and a new colossus. Especially in a defensive position Protoss is very strong. Ofcourse the right thing to do would have been add ghost and let Stardust take his 3rd and engage with ghosts after, but sometimes you feel a 50 supply advantage should do it.
All-in isn't really good description of that pressure. It was just an aggression by StarDust. Plus killing 30+ scvs while retaining majority of the gateway units should be solid damage. 7 gate or immortal bust that is more like an all-in.
On September 19 2013 04:38 NarutO wrote: Maybe you guys can explain what happens to Terran when our 2 base allin doesn't work and now please don't get me started on how that was no 2 base allin/timing from Stardust. Anyways, GGs!
Why everytime I see you post it is balance whine? relax man. kas ate those storms and missed his timing, he could have smashed SD if he had gone before storm, i also didn't see a single ghost with his army even though kas had the ghost academy for a good little while.
That was not the point. I don't think he lost because of balance, but the point is after a failed 2 base allin you should be dead. I believe Kas could have went right after, but you will still need to fight against possible photon overcharge and a new colossus. Especially in a defensive position Protoss is very strong. Ofcourse the right thing to do would have been add ghost and let Stardust take his 3rd and engage with ghosts after, but sometimes you feel a 50 supply advantage should do it.
Kas went down to 30 scvs during that timing, and he missed any opportunity to float 3rd + bunker up natural and wait til his second starport gave him enough vikings to bulldoze stardust by not looking around his bases for potential proxy pylons.
Kas was up after the fight but he bungled his timing and let stardust back in. Anyone can come back after a whiffed all in if their opponent plays badly.
Additionally Kas took the fight in the wrong place. Going through that choke is extremely hard vs Protoss. Best to go through the middle area and try to maybe slip a medivac around the edge of the map into the main/3rd.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
This is the best system, used by the best tournaments. Round robin is not better. If a player deserves to advance, they will advance.
On September 19 2013 04:38 NarutO wrote: Maybe you guys can explain what happens to Terran when our 2 base allin doesn't work and now please don't get me started on how that was no 2 base allin/timing from Stardust. Anyways, GGs!
If the Protoss played as badly as Kas just did, then the Terran would win. That's what happens when you play badly; you lose.
Stop balance whining in LR threads.
Funny coming from you. Also funny comment on the game we just saw. 2 base allin completely missed its timing, got crushed. Applying your comment there, should have lost.
Didnt he kill a ton of workers with that "failed" attack? I think kas was down something like 48 to 30 workers?
Even with 20 to 48 workers, its 3 OC and enough income to support your production until its fine again. The issue is that you simply cannot push the issue with a supply advantage alone against a defensive positioned Protoss. I agree Kas had a massive advantage and made a terrible decision to attack instead of expanding again and going for 4 base ghost/viking, but some Terrans feel that it should be possible to crush a Protoss after a failed allin and with a massive supply lead. That was all I am saying.
Obviously Kas chose another route and got demolished by good storms.
On September 19 2013 04:39 Popkiller wrote: Hoping ForGG, MC, and duckeok are all in one group. Is that possible?
Just out of curiosity why do you hope this?
So one of them is guaranteed not to advance, which would help pave the way for MMA to get into the top 16.
he's already in the top 16. i think you mean the top 8.
top 16 WCS points for blizzcon.
oh that's right, i forgot about that. does MMA have a decent chance? how far off is he?
he is within 500 points of duckdeok, ForGG, MC, and Rain. If any of those guys (the more the better) don't get to the S3 finals and MMA does, he's almost guaranteed into the top 16. There's also Scarlett between him and Top 16 though.
On September 19 2013 04:38 TaishiCi wrote: sucks to suck kas.
macro/micro/multi-tasking was all not on par with Stardust, couple build order wins and you think you should have won the deciding series? Didn't switch up builds at all, and you think you should have won? lol.
Kas was 12 workers behind after Stardusts attack and maxed out, when Stardust was on 150... But his macro was totally "not on par", right?
LOL many of his games he got supply blocked several times and missed hitting upgrades on couple of games. I guess you don't know that macro isn't only supply.
On September 19 2013 04:38 NarutO wrote: Maybe you guys can explain what happens to Terran when our 2 base allin doesn't work and now please don't get me started on how that was no 2 base allin/timing from Stardust. Anyways, GGs!
Why everytime I see you post it is balance whine? relax man. kas ate those storms and missed his timing, he could have smashed SD if he had gone before storm, i also didn't see a single ghost with his army even though kas had the ghost academy for a good little while.
That was not the point. I don't think he lost because of balance, but the point is after a failed 2 base allin you should be dead. I believe Kas could have went right after, but you will still need to fight against possible photon overcharge and a new colossus. Especially in a defensive position Protoss is very strong. Ofcourse the right thing to do would have been add ghost and let Stardust take his 3rd and engage with ghosts after, but sometimes you feel a 50 supply advantage should do it.
All-in isn't really good description of that pressure. It was just an aggression by StarDust. Plus killing 30+ scvs while retaining majority of the gateway units should be solid damage. 7 gate or immortal bust that is more like an all-in.
Blinkstalker / Colossus timing is essentially as allin as it gets. Reference HerO vs INnoVation on Akilon... (just one example) It didn't even get demolished because HerO didn't commit to it as he saw INnoVation was prepared, proceeded to lose horribly against an scv pull.
On September 19 2013 04:46 Cheren wrote: Why did Kas try to drop StarDust when he saw StarDust was doing a 2-base build? Why be that aggressive when the protoss isn't taking a third?
When Protoss aren't taking their 3rd at a normal time, it's difficult to tell if it's because your pressure is working, they're choosing to play safe or if it's 2 base timing. A protoss on a bunch of gates, forge + colossus + twilight looks pretty normal.
I'd argue that if you try to keep dropping when they have blink stalkers though you'll get hurt (kas lost 2 full medivacs for basically no reason after he knew SD was on blinks). But I am a cautious player myself so idk.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
On September 19 2013 04:38 NarutO wrote: Maybe you guys can explain what happens to Terran when our 2 base allin doesn't work and now please don't get me started on how that was no 2 base allin/timing from Stardust. Anyways, GGs!
I think what you should do is clump all your bio units as much as possible and then sit in half a dozen psi storms, especially when you have worse upgrades.
On September 19 2013 04:38 NarutO wrote: Maybe you guys can explain what happens to Terran when our 2 base allin doesn't work and now please don't get me started on how that was no 2 base allin/timing from Stardust. Anyways, GGs!
I think what you should do is clump all your bio units as much as possible and then sit in half a dozen psi storms, especially when you have worse upgrades.
On September 19 2013 04:38 NarutO wrote: Maybe you guys can explain what happens to Terran when our 2 base allin doesn't work and now please don't get me started on how that was no 2 base allin/timing from Stardust. Anyways, GGs!
If the Protoss played as badly as Kas just did, then the Terran would win. That's what happens when you play badly; you lose.
Stop balance whining in LR threads.
Funny coming from you. Also funny comment on the game we just saw. 2 base allin completely missed its timing, got crushed. Applying your comment there, should have lost.
The better player won, whether the better player played well or not is irrelevant. Kas only held that all-in at the cost of a tonne of SCVs, or did you forget about that? In any case, you only need to beat what is put in front of you, and Kas played that out worse than Stardust did. Hence he loses.
As for "funny coming from you", I know for a fact that if I made even one of your balance whine posts I'd be on my way to Disneyland; must be nice having the mods ignore you :3
Stop balance whining in LR threads.
Its no balance whine. I pointed out multiple times that I believe Kas lost due to his mistakes of not going into the macro game. I might still adress that I feel a Terran should be able to push into Protoss while defending the allin. While it cost him a lot of scvs, he had enough economy (especially with 3orbitals) to sustain his production for an okay period of time, at least until his economy kicks in again.
He went right over to Stardust and denied the 3rd base but you still cannot push into a choke of Protoss. Its suicide. Thats what I dislike. But you can go ahead and point out what this has to do with balance. Mods don't ignore me actually, but they simply choose to not put words in my mouth
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
There is no wrong order, there is adaptation.
Adaptation and wrong order is not that big of a difference. Player A and Player B play against eachother. Player A wins the first match. Player B adapts and wins the second match. Player A does not have a chance to adapt anymore, because he is eliminated. Ofc. this is a bit simplyfied, but still adaptation on wrong order have quit a bit in common.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
I am saying, that this format is bad since 2011, so it has not that much to do with the recent results. And your argument does not make that much sence, if you subtract their results against eachother, you have Stardust winning against Firecake, while Kas lost against MC. That is not at all comparable, because you will always have a better record against worse players, so how exactly should that indicate anything?
On September 19 2013 01:00 NovaMB wrote: Btw Group drawings for the ro16 are immediatly after tonights games
Just to draw a picture of possible pairings we have those 1st and 2nd place finishers: 1st 2nd ForGG Targa Happy duckdeok Vortix random german toss that killed Mvp Showtime Genius Starbuck Welmu Thorzain Titan Nerchio MMA Babyknight As of now we may have a group of 4 P but not 4 Z or 4T group unless FireCake tops this one or Kas comes second by the way :D
Pretty sure Showtime was a top German Nightelf player back in WC3. He was top back then, doesn't surprise me that with training he can be top in SC2 too.
On September 19 2013 01:00 NovaMB wrote: Btw Group drawings for the ro16 are immediatly after tonights games
Just to draw a picture of possible pairings we have those 1st and 2nd place finishers: 1st 2nd ForGG Targa Happy duckdeok Vortix random german toss that killed Mvp Showtime Genius Starbuck Welmu Thorzain Titan Nerchio MMA Babyknight As of now we may have a group of 4 P but not 4 Z or 4T group unless FireCake tops this one or Kas comes second by the way :D
Pretty sure Showtime was a top German Nightelf player back in WC3. He was top back then, doesn't surprise me that with training he can be top in SC2 too.
Yet according to liquipedia ShoWTimE turned full-time in June 2012, playing game from release.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
I am saying, that this format is bad since 2011, so it has not that much to do with the recent results. And your argument does not make that much sence, if you subtract their results against eachother, you have Stardust winning against Firecake, while Kas lost against MC. That is not at all comparable, because you will always have a better record against worse players, so how exactly should that indicate anything?
Do you really think Kas is a better player skill wise? Maybe you should get some glasses.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
I am saying, that this format is bad since 2011, so it has not that much to do with the recent results. And your argument does not make that much sence, if you subtract their results against eachother, you have Stardust winning against Firecake, while Kas lost against MC. That is not at all comparable, because you will always have a better record against worse players, so how exactly should that indicate anything?
Do you really think Kas is a better player skill wise? Maybe you should get some glasses.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
I am saying, that this format is bad since 2011, so it has not that much to do with the recent results. And your argument does not make that much sence, if you subtract their results against eachother, you have Stardust winning against Firecake, while Kas lost against MC. That is not at all comparable, because you will always have a better record against worse players, so how exactly should that indicate anything?
Do you really think Kas is a better player skill wise? Maybe you should get some glasses.
Not necessarily. But Stardust has´nt shown to be the better one either today; we´ve had Kas destroying Stardust in the first series, Stardust destroying Kas in the second (maybe due to nerve issues) and just as they proved to be completely even, the system lets Stardust advance. That is why I think, the system is stupid, my former point was more generally made, not in application to Stardust/Kas.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
I am saying, that this format is bad since 2011, so it has not that much to do with the recent results. And your argument does not make that much sence, if you subtract their results against eachother, you have Stardust winning against Firecake, while Kas lost against MC. That is not at all comparable, because you will always have a better record against worse players, so how exactly should that indicate anything?
You can deny it all you want. You're obviously one of those people who decides which system is better after the games are played. Almost every single LR thread has somebody whining that the system is stupid and they always advocate a different system where their favorite player advances. The system whining is getting even more tiresome than the balance whining.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
I am saying, that this format is bad since 2011, so it has not that much to do with the recent results. And your argument does not make that much sence, if you subtract their results against eachother, you have Stardust winning against Firecake, while Kas lost against MC. That is not at all comparable, because you will always have a better record against worse players, so how exactly should that indicate anything?
My argument makes perfect sense. Winning 2-0 is better than losing 0-2. You have no idea whether or not Kas would have beat Firecake anyways. Round robin seems like it'd be the better format to help determine that but then you have people whining that their player didn't get through when they won head-to-head but had a worse map score or vice versa.
On September 19 2013 01:00 NovaMB wrote: Btw Group drawings for the ro16 are immediatly after tonights games
Just to draw a picture of possible pairings we have those 1st and 2nd place finishers: 1st 2nd ForGG Targa Happy duckdeok Vortix random german toss that killed Mvp Showtime Genius Starbuck Welmu Thorzain Titan Nerchio MMA Babyknight As of now we may have a group of 4 P but not 4 Z or 4T group unless FireCake tops this one or Kas comes second by the way :D
Pretty sure Showtime was a top German Nightelf player back in WC3. He was top back then, doesn't surprise me that with training he can be top in SC2 too.
I think you confuse him with showtime.werra, which I'm fairly sure was a Korean
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
I am saying, that this format is bad since 2011, so it has not that much to do with the recent results. And your argument does not make that much sence, if you subtract their results against eachother, you have Stardust winning against Firecake, while Kas lost against MC. That is not at all comparable, because you will always have a better record against worse players, so how exactly should that indicate anything?
You can deny it all you want. You're obviously one of those people who decides which system is better after the games are played. Almost every single LR thread has somebody whining that the system is stupid and they always advocate a different system where their favorite player advances. The system whining is getting even more tiresome than the balance whining.
Yeah, sure, if someone critises a system, it is obviously, because he is a whiner and not, becasue the system is actually bad. I have several times defended RR, when people where all screaming for GSL format and I have several times said, that I am under the impression, that GSL format sucks. If you want, look through my entire post history and search for a single post, where I defended GSL-system, but if you can´t find one, don´t make up random bullshit about me, that contributes nothing to the discussion.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
I am saying, that this format is bad since 2011, so it has not that much to do with the recent results. And your argument does not make that much sence, if you subtract their results against eachother, you have Stardust winning against Firecake, while Kas lost against MC. That is not at all comparable, because you will always have a better record against worse players, so how exactly should that indicate anything?
My argument makes perfect sense. Winning 2-0 is better than losing 0-2. You have no idea whether or not Kas would have beat Firecake anyways. Round robin seems like it'd be the better format to help determine that but then you have people whining that their player didn't get through when they won head-to-head but had a worse map score or vice versa.
Winning 2-0 against an inferior player is obviously better than losing 2-0 against a superior, you are right in this on this. But is it good? Does it provide any actual information, about the direct comparism between Kas and Stardust? No it does´nt. It leaves us in uncertaincy. Maybe SD would have beaten MC. Maybe Kas would have lost to Firecake. MAYBE. Maybe is a really shitty indicator, if you actually want to have facts. If you do Round Robin, you know, who would beat who and you don´t have a "maybe" and can determine, who advances by actual results. And in 4 man groups there should´nt be complains either, since there is no possible h2h tie-breaker, between 2nd and 3rd place, where there is´nt a third person involved. Round Robin with map-score-tiebreaker always shows, who did best against the entire group.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
I am saying, that this format is bad since 2011, so it has not that much to do with the recent results. And your argument does not make that much sence, if you subtract their results against eachother, you have Stardust winning against Firecake, while Kas lost against MC. That is not at all comparable, because you will always have a better record against worse players, so how exactly should that indicate anything?
You can deny it all you want. You're obviously one of those people who decides which system is better after the games are played. Almost every single LR thread has somebody whining that the system is stupid and they always advocate a different system where their favorite player advances. The system whining is getting even more tiresome than the balance whining.
Yeah pretty much, these people are annoying as fuck... just accept that your favorite players suck right now and move on. I'm sure that if Kas or Firecake or whoever he rooted for made it through, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Too bad Seboe ! You should get back to Super Smash Melee :D Happy to see you play at this level anyways ! Good luck for the future !! User was warned for this post
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
I am saying, that this format is bad since 2011, so it has not that much to do with the recent results. And your argument does not make that much sence, if you subtract their results against eachother, you have Stardust winning against Firecake, while Kas lost against MC. That is not at all comparable, because you will always have a better record against worse players, so how exactly should that indicate anything?
You can deny it all you want. You're obviously one of those people who decides which system is better after the games are played. Almost every single LR thread has somebody whining that the system is stupid and they always advocate a different system where their favorite player advances. The system whining is getting even more tiresome than the balance whining.
Yeah pretty much, these people are annoying as fuck... just accept that your favorite players suck right now and move on. I'm sure that if Kas or Firecake or whoever he rooted for made it through, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Have you agree with you. People are too quick to judge "skill" off a few games. Consistency is also important!
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
I am saying, that this format is bad since 2011, so it has not that much to do with the recent results. And your argument does not make that much sence, if you subtract their results against eachother, you have Stardust winning against Firecake, while Kas lost against MC. That is not at all comparable, because you will always have a better record against worse players, so how exactly should that indicate anything?
You can deny it all you want. You're obviously one of those people who decides which system is better after the games are played. Almost every single LR thread has somebody whining that the system is stupid and they always advocate a different system where their favorite player advances. The system whining is getting even more tiresome than the balance whining.
Yeah pretty much, these people are annoying as fuck... just accept that your favorite players suck right now and move on. I'm sure that if Kas or Firecake or whoever he rooted for made it through, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Have you agree with you. People are too quick to judge "skill" off a few games. Consistency is also important!
As I said before, I am not judging the skill of both players, that was a comment, when TargA>Naniwa and Starbuck>LucifroN were still in th discussion. "Consisteny is also important". Yes, it is. But how is 0-2 first and 2-0 second more consistent then 2-0 first and 0-2 second? It is the exact same score, your point does not make any sence at all.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
I am saying, that this format is bad since 2011, so it has not that much to do with the recent results. And your argument does not make that much sence, if you subtract their results against eachother, you have Stardust winning against Firecake, while Kas lost against MC. That is not at all comparable, because you will always have a better record against worse players, so how exactly should that indicate anything?
You can deny it all you want. You're obviously one of those people who decides which system is better after the games are played. Almost every single LR thread has somebody whining that the system is stupid and they always advocate a different system where their favorite player advances. The system whining is getting even more tiresome than the balance whining.
Yeah pretty much, these people are annoying as fuck... just accept that your favorite players suck right now and move on. I'm sure that if Kas or Firecake or whoever he rooted for made it through, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Yeah, he sure sucks for going head to head with another player and getting eliminated for this, valid point... How about actually saying something, worth the time, it takes typing it? You can talk shit all day, but the only thing, you guys say here, is that I am annoying, while I am the only one in this discussion, who is actually making points. So either start contributing to the discussion or stop posting in it.
Edit:
On September 19 2013 18:19 Bjarne wrote: To sum ist up: Koreans win the important games. Sad from a foreigner point of view.
Same in NA: Vibe beats Nestea first game, then, in the loosers final, he lost ---> there he goes....
At least Babyknight made ist against Tails....and apart form this Kori/Foreigner-debate: GOGO MCuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!! =)
To be fair, Nestea won the direct comparism, as he lost 1:2, but won 2:0. If Stardust would have lost 1:2 and won 2:0 after that, I would´nt say anything, because there would be at least some indication, that he is the better player. But when those to are completely equal and one advances, while the other does not, this is just bad.
GSL style groups are really good for a reason: A player who wins 2 out of 3 Matches always makes it out and it's always in that Hand of the player if he makes it through. If you fully play out all groups you get a lot of situations where people go 2-1 and still don't make it. This never happens here.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
I am saying, that this format is bad since 2011, so it has not that much to do with the recent results. And your argument does not make that much sence, if you subtract their results against eachother, you have Stardust winning against Firecake, while Kas lost against MC. That is not at all comparable, because you will always have a better record against worse players, so how exactly should that indicate anything?
You can deny it all you want. You're obviously one of those people who decides which system is better after the games are played. Almost every single LR thread has somebody whining that the system is stupid and they always advocate a different system where their favorite player advances. The system whining is getting even more tiresome than the balance whining.
Yeah pretty much, these people are annoying as fuck... just accept that your favorite players suck right now and move on. I'm sure that if Kas or Firecake or whoever he rooted for made it through, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Have you agree with you. People are too quick to judge "skill" off a few games. Consistency is also important!
As I said before, I am not judging the skill of both players, that was a comment, when TargA>Naniwa and Starbuck>LucifroN were still in th discussion. "Consisteny is also important". Yes, it is. But how is 0-2 first and 2-0 second more consistent then 2-0 first and 0-2 second? It is the exact same score, your point does not make any sence at all.
On September 19 2013 04:41 Xoronius wrote: This is so frustrating; Naniwa 3:2 TargA -> TargA advances LucifroN 3:2 Starbuck -> Starbuck advances Kas 2:2 Stardust -> Stardust advances.
Everyone I root for gets eliminated, because games are played in the "wrong order". Pls ESL, just get rid of this system and bring round robin back.
more like the players you root for can't play under pressure. The system is completely fine. If you can beat some one then why can't you beat them again? Oh it's because of the nerves ^^ Something that sadly stops a lot of players from becoming elite
Should´nt skill be higher rewarded than nerves? If you let this group play out normally, Kas probably beats Firecake, MC probably beats SD and MC/Kas make it out without any debate. In this system you have 2 players go 2:2 against eachother and one of them advances, because his opponent, who rolled him in a normal game, has nerve issues.
Skill is rewarded in this format. You're just upset because the way this format is set up didn't do well for your players. The same way people cry about extended series when it knocks out their favorite player but you apparently want some sort of extended series here where your former set is relevant. In the end, Kas ended up going 2-4 in total matches and Stardust went 4-2. The player who beat more people, aka showed more skill, won.
I am saying, that this format is bad since 2011, so it has not that much to do with the recent results. And your argument does not make that much sence, if you subtract their results against eachother, you have Stardust winning against Firecake, while Kas lost against MC. That is not at all comparable, because you will always have a better record against worse players, so how exactly should that indicate anything?
You can deny it all you want. You're obviously one of those people who decides which system is better after the games are played. Almost every single LR thread has somebody whining that the system is stupid and they always advocate a different system where their favorite player advances. The system whining is getting even more tiresome than the balance whining.
Yeah pretty much, these people are annoying as fuck... just accept that your favorite players suck right now and move on. I'm sure that if Kas or Firecake or whoever he rooted for made it through, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Yeah, he sure sucks for going head to head with another player and getting eliminated for this, valid point... How about actually saying something, worth the time, it takes typing it? You can talk shit all day, but the only thing, you guys say here, is that I am annoying, while I am the only one in this discussion, who is actually making points. So either start contributing to the discussion or stop posting in it.
On September 19 2013 18:19 Bjarne wrote: To sum ist up: Koreans win the important games. Sad from a foreigner point of view.
Same in NA: Vibe beats Nestea first game, then, in the loosers final, he lost ---> there he goes....
At least Babyknight made ist against Tails....and apart form this Kori/Foreigner-debate: GOGO MCuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!! =)
To be fair, Nestea won the direct comparism, as he lost 1:2, but won 2:0. If Stardust would have lost 1:2 and won 2:0 after that, I would´nt say anything, because there would be at least some indication, that he is the better player. But when those to are completely equal and one advances, while the other does not, this is just bad.
I agree.... Kas and Stardust is slightly diffrent.
Considering the hole discussion, i think your right. The system is random at this point.
On September 19 2013 18:38 4tre55 wrote: GSL style groups are really good for a reason: A player who wins 2 out of 3 Matches always makes it out and it's always in that Hand of the player if he makes it through. If you fully play out all groups you get a lot of situations where people go 2-1 and still don't make it. This never happens here.
But those two out of three matches are against different people. Stardust had to win 2 out of 3 against Kas(2x) and Firecake. Kas had to win to out of 3 against Stardust (2x) and MC. Noone could make sure, whether SD for example could still win 2 out of three, if he plays MC instead of Firecake, so again we get uncertaincy. In round robin, you can get eliminated going 2-1, but in this case it still is, because 2 other guys performed better (in map-score) against the same people.
On September 19 2013 18:38 4tre55 wrote: GSL style groups are really good for a reason: A player who wins 2 out of 3 Matches always makes it out and it's always in that Hand of the player if he makes it through. If you fully play out all groups you get a lot of situations where people go 2-1 and still don't make it. This never happens here.
But those two out of three matches are against different people. Stardust had to win 2 out of 3 against Kas(2x) and Firecake. Kas had to win to out of 3 against Stardust (2x) and MC. Noone could make sure, whether SD for example could still win 2 out of three, if he plays MC instead of Firecake, so again we get uncertaincy. In round robin, you can get eliminated going 2-1, but in this case it still is, because 2 other guys performed better (in map-score) against the same people.
That still leaves the point that Kas had all the chances in the world to advance by winning a best of 3 against stardust, the player who advanced in his stead. So imo people are right to say Stardust deserve to advance instead of Kas, because he beat Kas for that spot.
That's the whole beauty of GSL-style groups, not to mention more advantages like being better for TV, not forcing situations where a player who plays for nothing actually decides the fate of other players and so on...
On September 19 2013 18:38 4tre55 wrote: GSL style groups are really good for a reason: A player who wins 2 out of 3 Matches always makes it out and it's always in that Hand of the player if he makes it through. If you fully play out all groups you get a lot of situations where people go 2-1 and still don't make it. This never happens here.
But those two out of three matches are against different people. Stardust had to win 2 out of 3 against Kas(2x) and Firecake. Kas had to win to out of 3 against Stardust (2x) and MC. Noone could make sure, whether SD for example could still win 2 out of three, if he plays MC instead of Firecake, so again we get uncertaincy. In round robin, you can get eliminated going 2-1, but in this case it still is, because 2 other guys performed better (in map-score) against the same people.
That still leaves the point that Kas had all the chances in the world to advance by winning a best of 3 against stardust, the player who advanced in his stead. So imo people are right to say Stardust deserve to advance instead of Kas, because he beat Kas for that spot.
That's the whole beauty of GSL-style groups, not to mention more advantages like being better for TV, not forcing situations where a player who plays for nothing actually decides the fate of other players and so on...
This is one of the reasons that shows, unequivocally, that GSL style groups are better in systems that do not reward map scores as points for future use. Round robin not only allow ties, but they force inconsequential games (for one or both). These players have no incentive to win but end up deciding the future of other players. Some players just end up fortunately playing against these players last. If these last placed players had something to play for (for example, points that improve his chances in Challenger League) then perhaps round robins could be more acceptable. Unfortunately, that is not the case, and round robins do not provide any real advantages against the current system.
On September 19 2013 18:38 4tre55 wrote: GSL style groups are really good for a reason: A player who wins 2 out of 3 Matches always makes it out and it's always in that Hand of the player if he makes it through. If you fully play out all groups you get a lot of situations where people go 2-1 and still don't make it. This never happens here.
But those two out of three matches are against different people. Stardust had to win 2 out of 3 against Kas(2x) and Firecake. Kas had to win to out of 3 against Stardust (2x) and MC. Noone could make sure, whether SD for example could still win 2 out of three, if he plays MC instead of Firecake, so again we get uncertaincy. In round robin, you can get eliminated going 2-1, but in this case it still is, because 2 other guys performed better (in map-score) against the same people.
That still leaves the point that Kas had all the chances in the world to advance by winning a best of 3 against stardust, the player who advanced in his stead. So imo people are right to say Stardust deserve to advance instead of Kas, because he beat Kas for that spot.
That's the whole beauty of GSL-style groups, not to mention more advantages like being better for TV, not forcing situations where a player who plays for nothing actually decides the fate of other players and so on...
The last part is probably why most tournaments use GSL style now.
So there´s still people arguing against GSL style groups? But, but, it makes so much sense, giving everybody equal chances to advance in a quick and plannable format.
On September 19 2013 18:38 4tre55 wrote: GSL style groups are really good for a reason: A player who wins 2 out of 3 Matches always makes it out and it's always in that Hand of the player if he makes it through. If you fully play out all groups you get a lot of situations where people go 2-1 and still don't make it. This never happens here.
But those two out of three matches are against different people. Stardust had to win 2 out of 3 against Kas(2x) and Firecake. Kas had to win to out of 3 against Stardust (2x) and MC. Noone could make sure, whether SD for example could still win 2 out of three, if he plays MC instead of Firecake, so again we get uncertaincy. In round robin, you can get eliminated going 2-1, but in this case it still is, because 2 other guys performed better (in map-score) against the same people.
That still leaves the point that Kas had all the chances in the world to advance by winning a best of 3 against stardust, the player who advanced in his stead. So imo people are right to say Stardust deserve to advance instead of Kas, because he beat Kas for that spot.
That's the whole beauty of GSL-style groups, not to mention more advantages like being better for TV, not forcing situations where a player who plays for nothing actually decides the fate of other players and so on...
Ofc. he had a chance to still advance, but it was not an equal chance. SD defeated Kas for the spot, but Kas did beat SD 2 ours earlier and that was not worth anything at the end. A Group stage is a group stage, because the entire performance should matter, not only the last match. Otherwise you could just make everything double-elim. from the o32 and avoid groups entirely.
Being better for TV is not an advantadge at all for a system, it does´nt increase it´s fairness, it only increases the pleasure of the viewer. If we only want to have that, we might as well start seeding the last WCS Champion in the final, so we get a clash of kings, when the tournament ends.
On September 19 2013 18:38 4tre55 wrote: GSL style groups are really good for a reason: A player who wins 2 out of 3 Matches always makes it out and it's always in that Hand of the player if he makes it through. If you fully play out all groups you get a lot of situations where people go 2-1 and still don't make it. This never happens here.
But those two out of three matches are against different people. Stardust had to win 2 out of 3 against Kas(2x) and Firecake. Kas had to win to out of 3 against Stardust (2x) and MC. Noone could make sure, whether SD for example could still win 2 out of three, if he plays MC instead of Firecake, so again we get uncertaincy. In round robin, you can get eliminated going 2-1, but in this case it still is, because 2 other guys performed better (in map-score) against the same people.
That still leaves the point that Kas had all the chances in the world to advance by winning a best of 3 against stardust, the player who advanced in his stead. So imo people are right to say Stardust deserve to advance instead of Kas, because he beat Kas for that spot.
That's the whole beauty of GSL-style groups, not to mention more advantages like being better for TV, not forcing situations where a player who plays for nothing actually decides the fate of other players and so on...
This is one of the reasons that shows, unequivocally, that GSL style groups are better in systems that do not reward map scores as points for future use. Round robin not only allow ties, but they force inconsequential games (for one or both). These players have no incentive to win but end up deciding the future of other players. Some players just end up fortunately playing against these players last. If these last placed players had something to play for (for example, points that improve his chances in Challenger League) then perhaps round robins could be more acceptable. Unfortunately, that is not the case, and round robins do not provide any real advantages against the current system.
You say that GSL groups would be unequivocally better becuase they do not use map-scores, but IMHO that is one of the main reasons, why they are worse; every series matters, but what happens in the series gets completely irrelevant, you don´t gain anything by winning additional maps, when they actually make a difference. It is like the First-past-to-post election system, it just ignores relevant stuff. Yes, RR allows ties and thus has tie-breakers, but that is only becuase if two people are equal in results, you require additional data on who deserves to go through. In GSL System this "additional data" is just the fact, that one series is played later than the other.
The argument of "useless" games is the only real flaw RR has, and while that can be a problem in other tourneys, it is´nt really in WCS: IN RR the last 2 games are always played at the same time and thus there is quite a variation of possible results with a chance for improvement almost every time. And In WCS every place has a difference; 1&2 in seeding, 2&3 in advancement and 3&4 in 50 WCS points.
On September 19 2013 18:38 4tre55 wrote: GSL style groups are really good for a reason: A player who wins 2 out of 3 Matches always makes it out and it's always in that Hand of the player if he makes it through. If you fully play out all groups you get a lot of situations where people go 2-1 and still don't make it. This never happens here.
But those two out of three matches are against different people. Stardust had to win 2 out of 3 against Kas(2x) and Firecake. Kas had to win to out of 3 against Stardust (2x) and MC. Noone could make sure, whether SD for example could still win 2 out of three, if he plays MC instead of Firecake, so again we get uncertaincy. In round robin, you can get eliminated going 2-1, but in this case it still is, because 2 other guys performed better (in map-score) against the same people.
Yes, some people (myself included) think that tournament groups should not depend on the ORDER of the games. Every style has its downfalls, but to me the order one it's one of the worst.
On September 20 2013 01:09 Xoronius wrote: But those two out of three matches are against different people. Stardust had to win 2 out of 3 against Kas(2x) and Firecake. Kas had to win to out of 3 against Stardust (2x) and MC. Noone could make sure, whether SD for example could still win 2 out of three, if he plays MC instead of Firecake, so again we get uncertaincy. In round robin, you can get eliminated going 2-1, but in this case it still is, because 2 other guys performed better (in map-score) against the same people.
But depending on the tie-breaker rules there are situations you actually performed better than at least one of the two players if you only take into acount the results between those two and still not adanve. Not the most fair either, right?
On September 20 2013 01:09 Xoronius wrote:
Ofc. he had a chance to still advance, but it was not an equal chance. SD defeated Kas for the spot, but Kas did beat SD 2 ours earlier and that was not worth anything at the end. A Group stage is a group stage, because the entire performance should matter, not only the last match. Otherwise you could just make everything double-elim. from the o32 and avoid groups entirely.
What chance could be more equal and fair for both players than playing each other in a best of 3 for the slot. Isn't it even more fair to both of them than inlucding the results of games against a 3rd person into the equation?
And the results of their first match do matter in GSL-style, because it's the difference between playing for advancment in 1st place vs. playing to avoid elmination in last place in the next match.
On September 20 2013 01:09 Xoronius wrote:
The argument of "useless" games is the only real flaw RR has, and while that can be a problem in other tourneys, it is´nt really in WCS: IN RR the last 2 games are always played at the same time and thus there is quite a variation of possible results with a chance for improvement almost every time. And In WCS every place has a difference; 1&2 in seeding, 2&3 in advancement and 3&4 in 50 WCS points.
I don't think anyone in the world really cares for the difference of 50 WCS points, Jeadong even forfeits matches for 75 points. And the seeding for Group Stage 2 doesn't really matter compared to - for example - giving a teammate the chance to advance by somehow losing a game you would normally most likely win. Only GSL-style gives you 100% meaningfull games, because every game is played for advancement, which is the key thing in the group stage.
On September 20 2013 01:09 Xoronius wrote: But those two out of three matches are against different people. Stardust had to win 2 out of 3 against Kas(2x) and Firecake. Kas had to win to out of 3 against Stardust (2x) and MC. Noone could make sure, whether SD for example could still win 2 out of three, if he plays MC instead of Firecake, so again we get uncertaincy. In round robin, you can get eliminated going 2-1, but in this case it still is, because 2 other guys performed better (in map-score) against the same people.
But depending on the tie-breaker rules there are situations you actually performed better than at least one of the two players if you only take into acount the results between those two and still not adanve. Not the most fair either, right?
Ofc. he had a chance to still advance, but it was not an equal chance. SD defeated Kas for the spot, but Kas did beat SD 2 ours earlier and that was not worth anything at the end. A Group stage is a group stage, because the entire performance should matter, not only the last match. Otherwise you could just make everything double-elim. from the o32 and avoid groups entirely.
What chance could be more equal and fair for both players than playing each other in a best of 3 for the slot. Isn't it even more fair to both of them than inlucding the results of games against a 3rd person into the equation?
And the results of their first match do matter in GSL-style, because it's the difference between playing for advancment in 1st place vs. playing to avoid elmination in last place in the next match.
The argument of "useless" games is the only real flaw RR has, and while that can be a problem in other tourneys, it is´nt really in WCS: IN RR the last 2 games are always played at the same time and thus there is quite a variation of possible results with a chance for improvement almost every time. And In WCS every place has a difference; 1&2 in seeding, 2&3 in advancement and 3&4 in 50 WCS points.
I don't think anyone in the world really cares for the difference of 50 WCS points, Jeadong even forfeits matches for 75 points. And the seeding for Group Stage 2 doesn't really matter compared to - for example - giving a teammate the chance to advance by somehow losing a game you would normally most likely win. Only GSL-style gives you 100% meaningfull games, because every game is played for advancement, which is the key thing in the group stage.
The only really good version of group MU IMO is something like OSL system with team kills ALWAYS played first.
On September 20 2013 01:09 Xoronius wrote: But those two out of three matches are against different people. Stardust had to win 2 out of 3 against Kas(2x) and Firecake. Kas had to win to out of 3 against Stardust (2x) and MC. Noone could make sure, whether SD for example could still win 2 out of three, if he plays MC instead of Firecake, so again we get uncertaincy. In round robin, you can get eliminated going 2-1, but in this case it still is, because 2 other guys performed better (in map-score) against the same people.
But depending on the tie-breaker rules there are situations you actually performed better than at least one of the two players if you only take into acount the results between those two and still not adanve. Not the most fair either, right?
If you only take the result between 2 players, than you miss the bigger picture. One player might beat another, because his style works very well against him (for example, Ret wins most of the tie against Hasu, even if Hasu is in better shape, when the games are played), but still perform worse against the rest of the group. If you use map-score as a tie-breaker, you let the player advance, who performs best against a variety of different players and thus can be assumed better, even if he loses the direct comparism.
Ofc. he had a chance to still advance, but it was not an equal chance. SD defeated Kas for the spot, but Kas did beat SD 2 ours earlier and that was not worth anything at the end. A Group stage is a group stage, because the entire performance should matter, not only the last match. Otherwise you could just make everything double-elim. from the o32 and avoid groups entirely.
What chance could be more equal and fair for both players than playing each other in a best of 3 for the slot. Isn't it even more fair to both of them than inlucding the results of games against a 3rd person into the equation?
And the results of their first match do matter in GSL-style, because it's the difference between playing for advancment in 1st place vs. playing to avoid elmination in last place in the next match.
Before the games Kas defeated Stardust and lost to MC, while Stardust defeated Firecake and lost to Kas. Kas obviously performed better before the final bo3 and he gets nothing for it. How is it fair, that two players get an equal chance of advancement, when one outperformed the other prior to the match?
The argument of "useless" games is the only real flaw RR has, and while that can be a problem in other tourneys, it is´nt really in WCS: IN RR the last 2 games are always played at the same time and thus there is quite a variation of possible results with a chance for improvement almost every time. And In WCS every place has a difference; 1&2 in seeding, 2&3 in advancement and 3&4 in 50 WCS points.
I don't think anyone in the world really cares for the difference of 50 WCS points, Jeadong even forfeits matches for 75 points. And the seeding for Group Stage 2 doesn't really matter compared to - for example - giving a teammate the chance to advance by somehow losing a game you would normally most likely win. Only GSL-style gives you 100% meaningfull games, because every game is played for advancement, which is the key thing in the group stage.
Jaedong did´nt play that match, because EG sends him to every tournament there is and he a ton of points because of that. For someone like Innovation, Jaedong or Bomber, WCS points might not matter anymore, but for the average player, everypoint happens. And you obviously schedule teamates matches against eachother first, so that this situation can´t happen
Since you're no really adressing the points i'm trying to make i'd rather ask one question just out of interest: You're also a big fan of the MLG extended series than?
On September 20 2013 16:40 4tre55 wrote: Since you're no really adressing the points i'm trying to make i'd rather ask one question just out of interest: You're also a big fan of the MLG extended series than?
While I think, that I am adressing the points, you make, I´ll still answer your question: No I don´t like the extended series of MLG. I you would apply MLG extendet series in WCS groupstage, you would not fix the problem, you would just give Kas an unfair advantadge, by letting him lose the extra series to MC, while SD had to win his extra series against Firecake. It results in the same problem, that GSL system has: Series played lose there value. In GSL system, the first series becomes worthless; in extended series, both and WB and LB lose there value. In round robin, you do not have this problem, as every series played in a gorup stage keeps counting.
In the end GSL system is better than extended series, but that does not make it better than RR. In an ideal world, you would play MLG as a league system, where everyone plays everyone, but being realistic, the amout of games and time, that would be needed is far to high, so that I still see double-elim as a less bad thing than double-elim with extended series. But in a 4-man group, this problem of to many games and to much time, does not exist, so there is no reason to not play RR.
EPT
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WCS Europe![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6wl40.png)
MC vs 
FireCake
Kas![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bv8Kw.png)
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Again, we need more volunteers. Anyone who watches games regularly and types really, really fast has qualifications to become an LRer.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ez5ozWv.jpg)
