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That Warp Prism drop may have saved Alicia's skin.
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On August 04 2013 01:20 Heartland wrote:I think they're a brilliant new unit. I hate when they're dropped in my mineral lines though : P
They have too big on an impact on the game. What unit can kill 11 Probes so quickly? Nothing. Sometimes they work really well, sometimes they don't. And it costs 75-25. Such a gimmick.
And in TvZ, well it killed my desire to watch TvZ. They are the damage dealers for both sides in TvZ. Zerg uses them to kill everything Terran has, and Terran uses them to kill everything Zerg has. The game revolves around Widow Mines, unless Zerg goes Roach Hydra...
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On August 04 2013 01:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:
That storm drop has to work wonders
And there was one.
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On August 04 2013 01:22 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 00:47 PhoenixVoid wrote:
My memories of DRG in WoL was as an incredibly strong Lair-tech player who mastered Muta/Ling/Bane and Roach-based ZvP to an extent. The paradox occurs when HotS buffed Lair-units, yet DRG hasn't been performing as well in the expansion. DRG had some of the most abysmal in-battle micro i've ever seen for a pro player. his muta control was pretty good, that was about it. he is the epitome of the 1a2a3a zerg, but to his credit he at least knew how to position his stuff well. you could do that in WoL but not anymore since mines will kill everything and timewarp+ff gives protoss an advantage against clumped melee/short ranged units.
I kinda remember DRG being referred to as the zerg war-machine. Kinda like Innovations brutal assaults
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That Archon made me a sad panda.
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On August 04 2013 01:22 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 01:20 robson1 wrote:On August 04 2013 01:17 ohampatu wrote:On August 04 2013 01:13 TheDwf wrote:On August 04 2013 01:12 ohampatu wrote:On August 04 2013 01:10 TheDwf wrote:On August 04 2013 01:10 ohampatu wrote:
Im starting to believe that fast expands just dont work against a terran who knows how to attack early You're joking, right? why would I be joking, this game showed dominance from taeja in 5 minutes because of build orders alone almost against the 1/1/1 that they do now adays you cannot both fast expand, get a robo, and get 3 gates you can have 2 of the 3 easily, but you will lack 1 of them, and it requires all 3 hence yes, I believe that a 1 gate/robo expand or a 2 gate expand is almost needed, 1 gate into expo into robo before extra gates, loses just like it did right here Or you can continuously produce units with your first gate, and not be out of position with your MSC when the attack hits? I didn't say he didn't play perfectly or didn't make mistakes. The msc placement had no reference at all on this push, it was back well in time to help defend, and the scout with MSC is pretty standard and needed now adays. All I said was, 1 gate into expo into 1 robo, if not played perfectly, seems to fold out just like that against that attack. It hits before warp is up. Units wise if he did what you proposed, he would have had 1 extra stalker, he wasn't ignoring his gateway at all during that game, his opening was completely standard. edit: 3 stalkers + MSC + Obs could still lose that fight just as easily, so im not sure what your suggesting, except to play perfectly No you said it's not possible to go 1 gate expo against an early agression build. But it is. No i didn't. I said alot more than that. I said that the weakness in his build was exposed. Holding the new 1/1/1 by going gate into expo into robo is not easy. Never said anything was imbalanced, just that with the new aggressions I think a 1 gate/robo expand is better or a 2 gate expand possibly. Your putting words in my mouth I never said. I said that 3 stalkers + MSC + Obs would lose that engagement, which is what somebody above recommended doing.
Im starting to believe that fast expands just dont work against a terran who knows how to attack early
he almost won with his first 9 units
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Austria24422 Posts
On August 04 2013 01:23 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 01:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:
That storm drop has to work wonders And there was one.
It did well but not enough. You really can't be taking early damage in PvT or terran can trade you to death forever
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On August 04 2013 01:22 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 01:20 Heartland wrote:On August 04 2013 01:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
I hate Widow Mines. I think they're a brilliant new unit. I hate when they're dropped in my mineral lines though : P They have too big on an impact on the game. What unit can kill 11 Probes so quickly? Nothing. Sometimes they work really well, sometimes they don't. And it costs 75-25. Such a gimmick. And in TvZ, well it killed my desire to watch TvZ. They are the damage dealers for both sides in TvZ. Zerg uses them to kill everything Terran has, and Terran uses them to kill everything Zerg has.
For me it feels like the addition of Lurkers to Zerg in BW. Adding entirely new dimensions to the game, developing micro, tactics and positioning.
But, to each their own I guess.
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On August 04 2013 01:25 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 01:22 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 04 2013 01:20 Heartland wrote:On August 04 2013 01:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
I hate Widow Mines. I think they're a brilliant new unit. I hate when they're dropped in my mineral lines though : P They have too big on an impact on the game. What unit can kill 11 Probes so quickly? Nothing. Sometimes they work really well, sometimes they don't. And it costs 75-25. Such a gimmick. And in TvZ, well it killed my desire to watch TvZ. They are the damage dealers for both sides in TvZ. Zerg uses them to kill everything Terran has, and Terran uses them to kill everything Zerg has. For me it feels like the addition of Lurkers to Zerg in BW. Adding entirely new dimensions to the game, developing micro, tactics and positioning. But, to each their own I guess.
But Lurkers didn't kill their own units. If they did, Terran would just drop single Marines on a bunch of Zerg units...
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On August 04 2013 01:24 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 01:22 ohampatu wrote:On August 04 2013 01:20 robson1 wrote:On August 04 2013 01:17 ohampatu wrote:On August 04 2013 01:13 TheDwf wrote:On August 04 2013 01:12 ohampatu wrote:On August 04 2013 01:10 TheDwf wrote:On August 04 2013 01:10 ohampatu wrote:
Im starting to believe that fast expands just dont work against a terran who knows how to attack early You're joking, right? why would I be joking, this game showed dominance from taeja in 5 minutes because of build orders alone almost against the 1/1/1 that they do now adays you cannot both fast expand, get a robo, and get 3 gates you can have 2 of the 3 easily, but you will lack 1 of them, and it requires all 3 hence yes, I believe that a 1 gate/robo expand or a 2 gate expand is almost needed, 1 gate into expo into robo before extra gates, loses just like it did right here Or you can continuously produce units with your first gate, and not be out of position with your MSC when the attack hits? I didn't say he didn't play perfectly or didn't make mistakes. The msc placement had no reference at all on this push, it was back well in time to help defend, and the scout with MSC is pretty standard and needed now adays. All I said was, 1 gate into expo into 1 robo, if not played perfectly, seems to fold out just like that against that attack. It hits before warp is up. Units wise if he did what you proposed, he would have had 1 extra stalker, he wasn't ignoring his gateway at all during that game, his opening was completely standard. edit: 3 stalkers + MSC + Obs could still lose that fight just as easily, so im not sure what your suggesting, except to play perfectly No you said it's not possible to go 1 gate expo against an early agression build. But it is. No i didn't. I said alot more than that. I said that the weakness in his build was exposed. Holding the new 1/1/1 by going gate into expo into robo is not easy. Never said anything was imbalanced, just that with the new aggressions I think a 1 gate/robo expand is better or a 2 gate expand possibly. Your putting words in my mouth I never said. I said that 3 stalkers + MSC + Obs would lose that engagement, which is what somebody above recommended doing. Im starting to believe that fast expands just dont work against a terran who knows how to attack early he almost won with his first 9 units
I think it's possible. Rain can do it.
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On August 04 2013 01:25 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 01:22 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 04 2013 01:20 Heartland wrote:On August 04 2013 01:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
I hate Widow Mines. I think they're a brilliant new unit. I hate when they're dropped in my mineral lines though : P They have too big on an impact on the game. What unit can kill 11 Probes so quickly? Nothing. Sometimes they work really well, sometimes they don't. And it costs 75-25. Such a gimmick. And in TvZ, well it killed my desire to watch TvZ. They are the damage dealers for both sides in TvZ. Zerg uses them to kill everything Terran has, and Terran uses them to kill everything Zerg has. For me it feels like the addition of Lurkers to Zerg in BW. Adding entirely new dimensions to the game, developing micro, tactics and positioning. But, to each their own I guess.
Lurker were much more predictable though. Also as far as i recall, the would not hit 9 flying units at once.
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On August 04 2013 01:22 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 01:20 Heartland wrote:On August 04 2013 01:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
I hate Widow Mines. I think they're a brilliant new unit. I hate when they're dropped in my mineral lines though : P They have too big on an impact on the game. What unit can kill 11 Probes so quickly? Nothing. Sometimes they work really well, sometimes they don't. And it costs 75-25. Such a gimmick. And in TvZ, well it killed my desire to watch TvZ. They are the damage dealers for both sides in TvZ. Zerg uses them to kill everything Terran has, and Terran uses them to kill everything Zerg has. The game revolves around Widow Mines, unless Zerg goes Roach Hydra...
Scarabs costs 15 minerals, have 9 range and shoot instantly out of a shuttle and flies away faster than stim marines.
I thought this type of unit was what people wanted?
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On August 04 2013 01:26 Wintex wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 01:24 robson1 wrote:On August 04 2013 01:22 ohampatu wrote:On August 04 2013 01:20 robson1 wrote:On August 04 2013 01:17 ohampatu wrote:On August 04 2013 01:13 TheDwf wrote:On August 04 2013 01:12 ohampatu wrote:On August 04 2013 01:10 TheDwf wrote:On August 04 2013 01:10 ohampatu wrote:
Im starting to believe that fast expands just dont work against a terran who knows how to attack early You're joking, right? why would I be joking, this game showed dominance from taeja in 5 minutes because of build orders alone almost against the 1/1/1 that they do now adays you cannot both fast expand, get a robo, and get 3 gates you can have 2 of the 3 easily, but you will lack 1 of them, and it requires all 3 hence yes, I believe that a 1 gate/robo expand or a 2 gate expand is almost needed, 1 gate into expo into robo before extra gates, loses just like it did right here Or you can continuously produce units with your first gate, and not be out of position with your MSC when the attack hits? I didn't say he didn't play perfectly or didn't make mistakes. The msc placement had no reference at all on this push, it was back well in time to help defend, and the scout with MSC is pretty standard and needed now adays. All I said was, 1 gate into expo into 1 robo, if not played perfectly, seems to fold out just like that against that attack. It hits before warp is up. Units wise if he did what you proposed, he would have had 1 extra stalker, he wasn't ignoring his gateway at all during that game, his opening was completely standard. edit: 3 stalkers + MSC + Obs could still lose that fight just as easily, so im not sure what your suggesting, except to play perfectly No you said it's not possible to go 1 gate expo against an early agression build. But it is. No i didn't. I said alot more than that. I said that the weakness in his build was exposed. Holding the new 1/1/1 by going gate into expo into robo is not easy. Never said anything was imbalanced, just that with the new aggressions I think a 1 gate/robo expand is better or a 2 gate expand possibly. Your putting words in my mouth I never said. I said that 3 stalkers + MSC + Obs would lose that engagement, which is what somebody above recommended doing. Im starting to believe that fast expands just dont work against a terran who knows how to attack early he almost won with his first 9 units I think it's possible. Rain can do it.
I know. I was just calling him out... he said it does not work, then he said... nonono I didn't say that. So i qouted the post where he said it's impossible.
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^ 8 range, Thieving Magpie.
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On August 04 2013 01:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 01:22 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 04 2013 01:20 Heartland wrote:On August 04 2013 01:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
I hate Widow Mines. I think they're a brilliant new unit. I hate when they're dropped in my mineral lines though : P They have too big on an impact on the game. What unit can kill 11 Probes so quickly? Nothing. Sometimes they work really well, sometimes they don't. And it costs 75-25. Such a gimmick. And in TvZ, well it killed my desire to watch TvZ. They are the damage dealers for both sides in TvZ. Zerg uses them to kill everything Terran has, and Terran uses them to kill everything Zerg has. The game revolves around Widow Mines, unless Zerg goes Roach Hydra... Scarabs costs 15 minerals, have 9 range and shoot instantly out of a shuttle and flies away faster than stim marines. I thought this type of unit was what people wanted?
Scarabs had a chance for the AI to shit itself and just not work, though.
IMO, niche, high impact units like the widow mine are good for the game because it lets people come back through their own skill(or dumb luck) and not just because their opponent throws.
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On August 04 2013 01:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 01:22 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 04 2013 01:20 Heartland wrote:On August 04 2013 01:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
I hate Widow Mines. I think they're a brilliant new unit. I hate when they're dropped in my mineral lines though : P They have too big on an impact on the game. What unit can kill 11 Probes so quickly? Nothing. Sometimes they work really well, sometimes they don't. And it costs 75-25. Such a gimmick. And in TvZ, well it killed my desire to watch TvZ. They are the damage dealers for both sides in TvZ. Zerg uses them to kill everything Terran has, and Terran uses them to kill everything Zerg has. The game revolves around Widow Mines, unless Zerg goes Roach Hydra... Scarabs costs 15 minerals, have 9 range and shoot instantly out of a shuttle and flies away faster than stim marines. I thought this type of unit was what people wanted?
Again, they didn't do friendly fire. Obviously if Widow Mines didn't do friendly fire they'd need a huge nerf, but imagine Lurkers or Reavers doing friendly fire, how ridiculous it would make Broodwar. To balance them, you'd need to increase their damage, and then you'd have what we have now.
And you'd get the same micro we have now with Widow Mines.
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On August 04 2013 01:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 01:22 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 04 2013 01:20 Heartland wrote:On August 04 2013 01:19 BronzeKnee wrote:
I hate Widow Mines. I think they're a brilliant new unit. I hate when they're dropped in my mineral lines though : P They have too big on an impact on the game. What unit can kill 11 Probes so quickly? Nothing. Sometimes they work really well, sometimes they don't. And it costs 75-25. Such a gimmick. And in TvZ, well it killed my desire to watch TvZ. They are the damage dealers for both sides in TvZ. Zerg uses them to kill everything Terran has, and Terran uses them to kill everything Zerg has. The game revolves around Widow Mines, unless Zerg goes Roach Hydra... Scarabs costs 15 minerals, have 9 range and shoot instantly out of a shuttle and flies away faster than stim marines. I thought this type of unit was what people wanted?
Except the reaver shuttle drop was a huuuuuuuuge investment. and you could not just build 12 reavers and burrow them.
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I think we're far from the full development of the WM, and it's far less random than Spider Mines, or as someone said, as Scarabs. They can be unburrowed to be moved when single units or small groups are sent in to bait them or to pull the shots into the Terran army, they can be targeted into larger groups of workers rather than targeting a single worker, etc. There's a lot to be seen from the WM still which I think lessens this feel of "randomness."
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storm away dear protoss... storm away!
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On August 04 2013 01:29 Heartland wrote:
I think we're far from the full development of the WM, and it's far less random than Spider Mines, or as someone said, as Scarabs. They can be unburrowed to be moved when single units or small groups are sent in to bait them or to pull the shots into the Terran army, they can be targeted into larger groups of workers rather than targeting a single worker, etc. There's a lot to be seen from the WM still which I think lessens this feel of "randomness."
Innovation in particular, who stop cancels his widows during basically every fight.
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EPT
