We have up first: Flying vs PartinG PartinG is someone who at the end of WOL was considered a top3 protoss if not arguably the best. Since then he has fallen from his once stardom like gameplay and overall persona. However he has maintained his PvP with a solid 70%+ winrate. Flying is the underdog in this match no doubt.
Prediction: PartinG 2-0 Flying
TRUE vs KeeN Ah TRUE the player that was supposed to retire but didn't. He's an interesting one that's for sure, at least gameplay wise, and he's going up against Commander Keen. Quite the spectacle of a player himself, 2 years ago he celebrated his wins and now he's become a cold stone killer, with such his game play has also improved slowly but surely. This match is hard to judge based on the fact that there isn't much data to go on, while TRUE has 2 wins against Fantasy, normally we would say that's good but Fantasy hasn't looked amazing. Keen has a straight up 50% winratio 4-4 vs zerg. I give KeeN the edge in this match.
Prediction: KeeN 2-1 TRUE
Reality vs KangHo Kangho is a some-what inconsistent and streaky player he can make good runs sometimes like he did last season. I feel like Reality is some-one KangHo will beat.
Prediction: KangHo 2-1 Reality
Curious vs sOs I won't lie to you this match may be one sided in sOs's favor. With Curious's recent protoss woes he may be in for a beating vs one of the best protoss's in sOs.
Please please please, don't turn this LR thread to shit with balance whining. There is a thread specifically for balance discussion. Can we please just watch and enjoy some great games?
On July 25 2013 10:25 Rhaegal wrote: Please please please, don't turn this LR thread to shit with balance whining. There is a thread specifically for balance discussion. Can we please just watch and enjoy some great games?
On July 25 2013 10:25 Rhaegal wrote: Please please please, don't turn this LR thread to shit with balance whining. There is a thread specifically for balance discussion. Can we please just watch and enjoy some great games?
You're that confident in Keen and Reality? =)
Wasn't trying to imply anything like that. But, I'm sure if Zergs win, Terrans will start baiting. And if Terran's win, Zergs will ruin the thread like they did OSL 2 nights ago.
Personally, I think it will be split. True beats Keen, Reality beats Losira. Major said True was the best player on Team 8.
When I saw him struggle I was perplexed, but then I heard he was retiring and I figured that explained his lackluster performance. Now, he's reinspired and I'll put my faith in Major's claim.
Reality I have always felt was a top tier Terran, glad to see he is performing well.
On July 25 2013 10:25 Rhaegal wrote: Please please please, don't turn this LR thread to shit with balance whining. There is a thread specifically for balance discussion. Can we please just watch and enjoy some great games?
You're that confident in Keen and Reality? =)
Wasn't trying to imply anything like that. But, I'm sure if Zergs win, Terrans will start baiting. And if Terran's win, Zergs will ruin the thread like they did OSL 2 nights ago.
On July 25 2013 12:23 Emzeeshady wrote: I hope Curious smashes sOs.
Death to cheesy/gimmicky Protosses!
Man, Curious has been almost as big of a disappointment as Bomber. I was so hyped for this guy back in October 2011, when he won Code A without dropping a single map. This was back when Code A was the 2nd most prestigious tournament in the world, and Curious crushed it.
Since then, Curious has never looked that good again. :\
We have up first: Flying vs PartinG PartinG is someone who at the end of WOL was considered a top3 protoss if not arguably the best. Since then he has fallen from his once stardom like gameplay and overall persona. However he has maintained his PvP with a solid 70%+ winrate. Flying is the underdog in this match no doubt.
Prediction: PartinG 2-0 Flying
TRUE vs KeeN Ah TRUE the player that was supposed to retire but didn't. He's an interesting one that's for sure, at least gameplay wise, and he's going up against Commander Keen. Quite the spectacle of a player himself, 2 years ago he celebrated his wins and now he's become a cold stone killer, with such his game play has also improved slowly but surely. This match is hard to judge based on the fact that there isn't much data to go on, while TRUE has 2 wins against Fantasy, normally we would say that's good but Fantasy hasn't looked amazing. Keen has a straight up 50% winratio 4-4 vs zerg. I give KeeN the edge in this match.
Prediction: KeeN 2-1 TRUE
Reality vs KangHo Kangho is a some-what inconsistent and streaky player he can make good runs sometimes like he did last season. I feel like Reality is some-one KangHo will beat.
Prediction: KangHo 2-1 Reality
Curious vs sOs I won't lie to you this match may be one sided in sOs's favor. With Curious's recent protoss woes he may be in for a beating vs one of the best protoss's in sOs.
On July 25 2013 12:23 Emzeeshady wrote: I hope Curious smashes sOs.
Death to cheesy/gimmicky Protosses!
Man, Curious has been almost as big of a disappointment as Bomber. I was so hyped for this guy back in October 2011, when he won Code A without dropping a single map. This was back when Code A was the 2nd most prestigious tournament in the world, and Curious crushed it.
Since then, Curious has never looked that good again. :\
Curious is still a good player. HOTS has hit him hard like a lot of Zergs but his play is quite solid imo.
He is a better player then sOs imo and I hope he shows it today.
Unless he steps his ZvP up he's gonna get smashed by sOs :/ I was a fan curious too but I don't see him winning.
On July 25 2013 12:23 Emzeeshady wrote: I hope Curious smashes sOs.
Death to cheesy/gimmicky Protosses!
Man, Curious has been almost as big of a disappointment as Bomber. I was so hyped for this guy back in October 2011, when he won Code A without dropping a single map. This was back when Code A was the 2nd most prestigious tournament in the world, and Curious crushed it.
Since then, Curious has never looked that good again. :\
Curious is still a good player. HOTS has hit him hard like a lot of Zergs but his play is quite solid imo.
He is a better player then sOs imo and I hope he shows it today.
On July 25 2013 12:23 Emzeeshady wrote: I hope Curious smashes sOs.
Death to cheesy/gimmicky Protosses!
Man, Curious has been almost as big of a disappointment as Bomber. I was so hyped for this guy back in October 2011, when he won Code A without dropping a single map. This was back when Code A was the 2nd most prestigious tournament in the world, and Curious crushed it.
Since then, Curious has never looked that good again. :\
Curious is still a good player. HOTS has hit him hard like a lot of Zergs but his play is quite solid imo.
He is a better player then sOs imo and I hope he shows it today.
Yeah I don't agree with Bagration that Curious never looked good after his code A run. He had his moments, especially in the final season of WoL.
I DO however, think he's looked pretty weak in ZvP and expect sOs to roll him. sOs plays really weird, but you can also see the solid play underneath it all.
I swear, he has like the fastest storms and feedbacks I've ever seen.
For the obligatory elphant hunting season, kespa trails ESF something like 19-12 in code A this season! Predicting at least 1 kespa win in sOs, I think Kangho and Keen could both go either way. Hoping for Parting, sOs, Keen, and Kangho! Good luck everyone :O
We have up first: Flying vs PartinG PartinG is someone who at the end of WOL was considered a top3 protoss if not arguably the best. Since then he has fallen from his once stardom like gameplay and overall persona. However he has maintained his PvP with a solid 70%+ winrate. Flying is the underdog in this match no doubt.
Prediction: PartinG 2-0 Flying
TRUE vs KeeN Ah TRUE the player that was supposed to retire but didn't. He's an interesting one that's for sure, at least gameplay wise, and he's going up against Commander Keen. Quite the spectacle of a player himself, 2 years ago he celebrated his wins and now he's become a cold stone killer, with such his game play has also improved slowly but surely. This match is hard to judge based on the fact that there isn't much data to go on, while TRUE has 2 wins against Fantasy, normally we would say that's good but Fantasy hasn't looked amazing. Keen has a straight up 50% winratio 4-4 vs zerg. I give KeeN the edge in this match.
Prediction: KeeN 2-1 TRUE
Reality vs KangHo Kangho is a some-what inconsistent and streaky player he can make good runs sometimes like he did last season. I feel like Reality is some-one KangHo will beat.
Prediction: KangHo 2-1 Reality
Curious vs sOs I won't lie to you this match may be one sided in sOs's favor. With Curious's recent protoss woes he may be in for a beating vs one of the best protoss's in sOs.
Prediction: sOs 2-0 Curious
I think you should give less weight towards win rates, there isn't enough games on these to be reliable.
We have up first: (P)Flying vs (P)PartinG Career SC2 Record: 1-1 The first time they played against each other, Flying wanted to show he's not a free win card and have an infamous dishwashing ceremony for Parting. in HoTS, PartinG followed up smashing Flying in a PvP in SPL. Now, it is only fair we have our third deciding meet between these two to determine who is truly deserving to play protoss while the other one, even if its temporarily, deserve to clean the other's dishes. We know Flying's playstyle. He plays a wild unique style that throws a lot of people off, but if there's one player who has the ability to hold off an unconventional protoss it's Parting. Given the volatility of the PvP matchup, it can only either way but as of this moment, Parting has nothing better to do than to practice his match vs Flying while Flying's busy preparing for the SPL Finals. I'll give the advantage to Parting's cheeky face.
Prediction: PartinG 2-1 Flying
(Z)TRUE vs (T)KeeN Oh it's True. ITS DAMN TRUE! A month ago, TRUE was a playing contemplating retirement. He was with a team going nowhere, with not even a main sponsor, with family troubles and losing passion for SC2. And then it came. Jin Air Green Wings. Family troubles solved. Coach reviving the passion for the game. And he took it and ran. He's been absolutely destroying his competition. His games vs Squirtle was one of pure dominance. Something that's not an easy feat against a staple Code S player. We can see that he destroyed JYP too but it's JYP so eh? This time aronud, he's against Keen. Keen may not do many ceremonies anymore but he certainly is getting manlier, becoming quietly a solid Code S player. There are rumors going around that MVP may join the Proleague. If this is indeed the case, this is the perfect time to display to the Kespa teams that a beast is coming their way. And it's not Ozone. It's keen. And you better prepare yourselves. And you better deal with it.
Prediction: KeeN 2-1 TRUE
(T)Reality vs (Z)KangHo Probably the most interesting match up of the series. Day 1 of Code A Ro24, Jangbi unleashed his inner Khan and Khan'd his way to a sweep to Leenock. Will Reality do the same? it depends. Is he seeking advice from Jangbi or Stork? Is he gearing himself for macro games or timing attacks? What we know from Kangho. He's LosirA. And he's a zerg. And he's also from LG-IM. And his weakness lies in the fact that he's very prone to timing attacks. Kangho with his very busy hands relishes in the mid-late + game and if he can take reality to that point with him, he's have a good shot of taking him down. This is (I believe) the first battle of the electronics LG vs Samsung and the victor will likely be sent a new phone for a job well done while the other is likely to be sent a letter of recommendation for conscription into the military. So will Kangho prevail or will reality set in?
Prediction: KangHo 2-1 Reality
(Z)Curious vs (P)sOs Dont know. Dont care. sOs is better.
On July 25 2013 12:23 Emzeeshady wrote: I hope Curious smashes sOs.
Death to cheesy/gimmicky Protosses!
Man, Curious has been almost as big of a disappointment as Bomber. I was so hyped for this guy back in October 2011, when he won Code A without dropping a single map. This was back when Code A was the 2nd most prestigious tournament in the world, and Curious crushed it.
Since then, Curious has never looked that good again. :\
Curious is still a good player. HOTS has hit him hard like a lot of Zergs but his play is quite solid imo.
He is a better player then sOs imo and I hope he shows it today.
I can kinda see where you're going sOs doesn't always have the most crisp play, but that being said, Curious' ZvP has just been so bad lately. Whereas sOs has gone toe-to-toe with Soulkey recently in the matchup. sOs should take this comfortably tonight. If sOs had to play PvT though I would possibly feel differently.
How is there not an OSL day 2 thread up yet? The games are in like 5 hours. I would try to do it... but I'm on vacation and probably won't get to see the games.
On July 25 2013 12:57 Wingblade wrote: How is there not an OSL day 2 thread up yet? The games are in like 5 hours. I would try to do it... but I'm on vacation and probably won't get to see the games.
because the result of the OSL are in and Bomber won already :/
On July 25 2013 13:20 lichter wrote: I don't understand why people like Parting. I consider him the most unlikeable Korean
I think he has a hilarious personality and is overall a strong player though he's fallen off lately due to his PvZ troubles. At his best he has some of the best micro of any Protoss out there, though he can be inconsistent.
On July 25 2013 13:20 lichter wrote: I don't understand why people like Parting. I consider him the most unlikeable Korean
meh I'm indifferent to PartinG these days. He seems a lot more sedated now that he's on SKT, and he turned on his eSF buddies quick :p (nortly, but he was talking smack last season).
Flying just rubbed me the wrong way initially though, and I want to see PartinG get even.
On July 25 2013 12:57 Wingblade wrote: How is there not an OSL day 2 thread up yet? The games are in like 5 hours. I would try to do it... but I'm on vacation and probably won't get to see the games.
because the result of the OSL are in and Bomber won already :/
Wait what??? I didn't think the games had been played yet
On July 25 2013 13:20 lichter wrote: I don't understand why people like Parting. I consider him the most unlikeable Korean
Because his interviews are more than "I want to give good games for my fans"
Yeah, his interviews are more like "eSF players are so ez. KeSPA master race. I'm going to advance to the Ro8 by picking eSF players in my Ro16 group."
On July 25 2013 12:57 Wingblade wrote: How is there not an OSL day 2 thread up yet? The games are in like 5 hours. I would try to do it... but I'm on vacation and probably won't get to see the games.
because the result of the OSL are in and Bomber won already :/
Wait what??? I didn't think the games had been played yet
"Bomber will never win a GSL" - Artosis in his match vs. Flash
Therefore by the Artosis curse rules Bomber will win this OSL.
On July 25 2013 13:20 lichter wrote: I don't understand why people like Parting. I consider him the most unlikeable Korean
Because his interviews are more than "I want to give good games for my fans"
Yeah, his interviews are more like "eSF players are so ez. KeSPA master race. I'm going to advance to the Ro8 by picking eSF players in my Ro16 group."
On July 25 2013 12:57 Wingblade wrote: How is there not an OSL day 2 thread up yet? The games are in like 5 hours. I would try to do it... but I'm on vacation and probably won't get to see the games.
because the result of the OSL are in and Bomber won already :/
Wait what??? I didn't think the games had been played yet
"Bomber will never win a GSL" - Artosis
Therefore by the Artosis curse rules Bomber will win this OSL.
but this isn't a GSL so how does the Artosis curse apply?
On July 25 2013 12:57 Wingblade wrote: How is there not an OSL day 2 thread up yet? The games are in like 5 hours. I would try to do it... but I'm on vacation and probably won't get to see the games.
because the result of the OSL are in and Bomber won already :/
Wait what??? I didn't think the games had been played yet
On July 25 2013 13:20 lichter wrote: I don't understand why people like Parting. I consider him the most unlikeable Korean
Because his interviews are more than "I want to give good games for my fans"
Yeah, his interviews are more like "eSF players are so ez. KeSPA master race. I'm going to advance to the Ro8 by picking eSF players in my Ro16 group."
On July 25 2013 13:30 Wingblade wrote:
On July 25 2013 12:58 LighT. wrote:
On July 25 2013 12:57 Wingblade wrote: How is there not an OSL day 2 thread up yet? The games are in like 5 hours. I would try to do it... but I'm on vacation and probably won't get to see the games.
because the result of the OSL are in and Bomber won already :/
Wait what??? I didn't think the games had been played yet
"Bomber will never win a GSL" - Artosis
Therefore by the Artosis curse rules Bomber will win this OSL.
but this isn't a GSL so how does the Artosis curse apply?
What I dont understand... How are starcraft units able to kill each other with such ease, tear each other apart but unable to move freakin lawn chairs and parasols?
I haven't been able to watch a ton of SC2 since hots came out, but lately whenever I watch, is it just me or is the right hand spawn on gwangali beach always stomping? Every game I've seen is just whoever spawns at the 1 o'clock just flooding units across and winning.
On July 25 2013 13:55 Alokiya wrote: I haven't been able to watch a ton of SC2 since hots came out, but lately whenever I watch, is it just me or is the right hand spawn on gwangali beach always stomping? Every game I've seen is just whoever spawns at the 1 o'clock just flooding units across and winning.
Gravity probably works in favor of the top spawning player.
On July 25 2013 13:55 Alokiya wrote: I haven't been able to watch a ton of SC2 since hots came out, but lately whenever I watch, is it just me or is the right hand spawn on gwangali beach always stomping? Every game I've seen is just whoever spawns at the 1 o'clock just flooding units across and winning.
Supernova vs Kangho Innovation vs Soulkey True vs Keen
Only game I can think of that the player on the right won is Rain vs Fantasy, but that match was kinda....
On July 25 2013 13:55 Alokiya wrote: I haven't been able to watch a ton of SC2 since hots came out, but lately whenever I watch, is it just me or is the right hand spawn on gwangali beach always stomping? Every game I've seen is just whoever spawns at the 1 o'clock just flooding units across and winning.
Supernova vs Kangho Innovation vs Soulkey True vs Keen
Only game I can think of that the player on the right won is Rain vs Fantasy, but that match was kinda....
DRG vs. Gumiho also favored the player in the bottom left.
On July 25 2013 13:55 Alokiya wrote: I haven't been able to watch a ton of SC2 since hots came out, but lately whenever I watch, is it just me or is the right hand spawn on gwangali beach always stomping? Every game I've seen is just whoever spawns at the 1 o'clock just flooding units across and winning.
Supernova vs Kangho Innovation vs Soulkey True vs Keen
Only game I can think of that the player on the right won is Rain vs Fantasy, but that match was kinda....
Also DRG vs YugiOh which ended in DRG being swarmed.
On July 25 2013 13:55 Alokiya wrote: I haven't been able to watch a ton of SC2 since hots came out, but lately whenever I watch, is it just me or is the right hand spawn on gwangali beach always stomping? Every game I've seen is just whoever spawns at the 1 o'clock just flooding units across and winning.
On July 25 2013 13:55 Alokiya wrote: I haven't been able to watch a ton of SC2 since hots came out, but lately whenever I watch, is it just me or is the right hand spawn on gwangali beach always stomping? Every game I've seen is just whoever spawns at the 1 o'clock just flooding units across and winning.
The very first game was symbol vs soulkey, and symbol spawned right then lost!
On July 25 2013 13:55 Alokiya wrote: I haven't been able to watch a ton of SC2 since hots came out, but lately whenever I watch, is it just me or is the right hand spawn on gwangali beach always stomping? Every game I've seen is just whoever spawns at the 1 o'clock just flooding units across and winning.
Supernova vs Kangho Innovation vs Soulkey True vs Keen
Only game I can think of that the player on the right won is Rain vs Fantasy, but that match was kinda....
DRG vs. Gumiho also favored the player in the bottom left.
I'll check that out. Like I said, the games I've have seen (only 3 or 4) was just the right hand player (generally a terran vs a zerg) rallying a ton of units and using the beach setup to never get surrounded and whittle down his opponent.
On July 25 2013 13:55 Alokiya wrote: I haven't been able to watch a ton of SC2 since hots came out, but lately whenever I watch, is it just me or is the right hand spawn on gwangali beach always stomping? Every game I've seen is just whoever spawns at the 1 o'clock just flooding units across and winning.
Gumiho vs Pigbaby!
Gumiho vs Soo! How could I forget that masterpiece!
On July 25 2013 13:55 Alokiya wrote: I haven't been able to watch a ton of SC2 since hots came out, but lately whenever I watch, is it just me or is the right hand spawn on gwangali beach always stomping? Every game I've seen is just whoever spawns at the 1 o'clock just flooding units across and winning.
Gumiho vs Pigbaby!
Gumiho vs Soo! How could I forget that masterpiece!
On July 25 2013 14:11 Tobblish wrote: More annoyed that Wolfdor is calling this an "all in"!
Not sure what you are talking about.I specifically highlighted several times how impressed I am with his transitions. And I'm very sure I didn't call either one of his builds an all in
On July 25 2013 14:11 Tobblish wrote: More annoyed that Wolfdor is calling this an "all in"!
Not sure what you are talking about.I specifically highlighted several times how impressed I am with his transitions. And I'm very sure I didn't call either one of his builds an all in
Could have been Wolf following you up. No point in arguing, it's on tape and I know what I heard.
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
On July 25 2013 14:11 Tobblish wrote: More annoyed that Wolfdor is calling this an "all in"!
Not sure what you are talking about.I specifically highlighted several times how impressed I am with his transitions. And I'm very sure I didn't call either one of his builds an all in
Could have been Wolf following you up. No point in arguing, it's on tape and I know what I heard.
xxo
I hope Reality 11/11 KangHo.
If this happens then I am going to rage quit SC2 for a few hours :p
I'M GONNA STOP PLAYING SC2 WHILE I WATCH GSL I SWEAR ILL DO IT
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
On July 25 2013 14:11 Tobblish wrote: More annoyed that Wolfdor is calling this an "all in"!
Not sure what you are talking about.I specifically highlighted several times how impressed I am with his transitions. And I'm very sure I didn't call either one of his builds an all in
Could have been Wolf following you up. No point in arguing, it's on tape and I know what I heard.
xxo
I hope Reality 11/11 KangHo.
If this happens then I am going to rage quit SC2 for a few hours :p
Bleh instead macro game and KangHo with a sick Roach Bling timing. ^_^
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
There's this dude called Innovation.
What's your point? That every standard player is as good as innovation, or that innovation's builds are safe enough and economic enough to play standard in tvx?
On July 25 2013 14:24 lichter wrote: People who consider Curious definitely better than sOs need to have their ears stuffed with camel hair
This thread is way too aggressive for me.
People who consider stuffing people's ears with camel hair aggressive need to have the inside of their eyelids painted with a picture of that Tossgirl+Forgg pic
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
There's this dude called Innovation.
What's your point? That every standard player is as good as innovation, or that innovation's builds are safe enough and economic enough to play standard in tvx?
His builds are safe enough and economic enough to play standard in tvz. If you know, you're as good as him.
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
It isn't just about playing "standard" as that had no real meaning in a few matchups atm and there is always multiple ways to play out a macro game.
It is that sOs doesn't win games by outplaying his opponent but rather by surprising him with weird strategies and tech switches. This makes him a worse player in my mind then someone like Curious who will win 90% with straight up better mechanics and skill.
Real Time Strategy
Strategy
If you want pure mechanics play Dance Dance Revolution
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Um you mean the world where was in the semi-finals of the last GSL and the finals of the WCS for that GSL season? Cause I don't even know where the hell Curious was then, I think he made Ro8 in that GSL though.
Oh yeah sOs also that Asian martial arts games thing.
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
It isn't just about playing "standard" as that had no real meaning in a few matchups atm and there is always multiple ways to play out a macro game.
It is that sOs doesn't win games by outplaying his opponent but rather by surprising him with weird strategies and tech switches. This makes him a worse player in my mind then someone like Curious who will win 90% with straight up better mechanics and skill.
Real Time Strategy
Strategy
If you want pure mechanics play Dance Dance Revolution
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
It isn't just about playing "standard" as that had no real meaning in a few matchups atm and there is always multiple ways to play out a macro game.
It is that sOs doesn't win games by outplaying his opponent but rather by surprising him with weird strategies and tech switches. This makes him a worse player in my mind then someone like Curious who will win 90% with straight up better mechanics and skill.
Real Time Strategy
Strategy
If you want pure mechanics play Dance Dance Revolution
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
There's this dude called Innovation.
What's your point? That every standard player is as good as innovation, or that innovation's builds are safe enough and economic enough to play standard in tvx?
His builds are safe enough and economic enough to play standard in tvz. If you know, you're as good as him.
That's what I said, not including tvz there isn't a standard build that accounts for everything
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
It isn't just about playing "standard" as that had no real meaning in a few matchups atm and there is always multiple ways to play out a macro game.
It is that sOs doesn't win games by outplaying his opponent but rather by surprising him with weird strategies and tech switches. This makes him a worse player in my mind then someone like Curious who will win 90% with straight up better mechanics and skill.
I think you're actually just huge fanboy of certain players and so make up reasons for them losing.
Also potential Esf fanboy. Further analysis required for confirmation.
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
There's this dude called Innovation.
What's your point? That every standard player is as good as innovation, or that innovation's builds are safe enough and economic enough to play standard in tvx?
His builds are safe enough and economic enough to play standard in tvz. If you know, you're as good as him.
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
It isn't just about playing "standard" as that had no real meaning in a few matchups atm and there is always multiple ways to play out a macro game.
It is that sOs doesn't win games by outplaying his opponent but rather by surprising him with weird strategies and tech switches. This makes him a worse player in my mind then someone like Curious who will win 90% with straight up better mechanics and skill.
Unfortunately, StarCraft is not such a static and unchanging game as you wish it would be. The whole dynamic of cheeses, unorthodox plays and "weird strategies and tech switches" applies in a game designed for out-thinking and out-playing your opponent in a massive variety of ways. Sure we have our mechanical monsters like Curious, but based off of results, sOs has been better lately, and thus he can be seen as the better player, so being a player like sOs does not determine how "good" you are as a player.
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
It isn't just about playing "standard" as that had no real meaning in a few matchups atm and there is always multiple ways to play out a macro game.
It is that sOs doesn't win games by outplaying his opponent but rather by surprising him with weird strategies and tech switches. This makes him a worse player in my mind then someone like Curious who will win 90% with straight up better mechanics and skill.
Real Time Strategy
Strategy
If you want pure mechanics play Dance Dance Revolution
That isn't what I want, I enjoy the strategy part of RTS games. Imo there is a difference between doing something because it is smart and doing it because it is so weird the other player won;t expect it/know how to respond to it.
Thats what separates players like Mvp and a player like sOs.
I love Mvp but how is 2raxing Protosses smarter than the crazy shit sOs does?
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
It isn't just about playing "standard" as that had no real meaning in a few matchups atm and there is always multiple ways to play out a macro game.
It is that sOs doesn't win games by outplaying his opponent but rather by surprising him with weird strategies and tech switches. This makes him a worse player in my mind then someone like Curious who will win 90% with straight up better mechanics and skill.
Real Time Strategy
Strategy
If you want pure mechanics play Dance Dance Revolution
That isn't what I want, I enjoy the strategy part of RTS games. Imo there is a difference between doing something because it is smart and doing it because it is so weird the other player won;t expect it/know how to respond to it.
Thats what separates players like Mvp and a player like sOs.
Just because you want to enjoy a certain part of the game doesn't make you right.
And doing something weird because the opponent won't expect is smart, BECAUSE the opponent won't expect.
If no one cheesed and everyone just fast expanded the game would be lame.
On July 25 2013 14:32 Rhaegal wrote: It's not often you see Losira get outmultitasked. Dude's one of the fastest players in the world. Quite impressive from Reality.
On July 25 2013 14:35 lichter wrote: What would change if widow mines were manual fire only instead of automatic fire?
No more lucky hits and total imbaness. Zergs seems to have problems at the highset elvel of play against this 4M rallypush, why dont they get a few defensive swarmhosts?
On July 25 2013 14:35 lichter wrote: What would change if widow mines were manual fire only instead of automatic fire?
Innovation would be the only person on the planet able to play that style of tvz
Potential for huge damage if you have the micro and multitasking. Sure fire on baneling clumps. No luck involved, all skill. Makes micro players better, makes worse players even worse.
On July 25 2013 14:32 Rhaegal wrote: It's not often you see Losira get outmultitasked. Dude's one of the fastest players in the world. Quite impressive from Reality.
maybe his crazy apm is just spam... :/
Na, if you've ever seen his stream you'll know his speed is on another level than even most Korean pros.
On July 25 2013 14:35 lichter wrote: What would change if widow mines were manual fire only instead of automatic fire?
No more lucky hits and total imbaness. Zergs seems to have problems at the highset elvel of play against this 4M rallypush, why dont they get a few defensive swarmhosts?
No lucky hits but players would be able to manual target the clumps, resulting in bigger damage assuming they have the mechanics.
On July 25 2013 14:35 lichter wrote: What would change if widow mines were manual fire only instead of automatic fire?
No more lucky hits and total imbaness. Zergs seems to have problems at the highset elvel of play against this 4M rallypush, why dont they get a few defensive swarmhosts?
Not enough gas to get muta/ling/bling + infestation pit + upgrade + swarmhosts in time for them to be useful.
On July 25 2013 14:35 lichter wrote: What would change if widow mines were manual fire only instead of automatic fire?
Innovation would be the only person on the planet able to play that style of tvz
Potential for huge damage if you have the micro and multitasking. Sure fire on baneling clumps. No luck involved, all skill. Makes micro players better, makes worse players even worse.
Lol. I don't think reality won because of auto-firing mines.
On July 25 2013 14:35 lichter wrote: What would change if widow mines were manual fire only instead of automatic fire?
No more lucky hits and total imbaness. Zergs seems to have problems at the highset elvel of play against this 4M rallypush, why dont they get a few defensive swarmhosts?
Assuming you get 2 like Sanae did, it costs about 500/300 in resources. There is also no guarantee that they will set off the mines if you're playing someone like Innovation/Maru (both players notorious for burrow/unburrow micro). And that 500 gas could be the spire + 3 mutas or a large pack of banelings. One gives you a better defensive option against drops. The other gives you a better fighting force and counter attack option. Resource for resource cost, Baneling/Spire is superior in most ways.
The only successful game I've seen a Zerg do SH v Bio is Zenio vs Cure on Newkirk.
On July 25 2013 14:35 lichter wrote: What would change if widow mines were manual fire only instead of automatic fire?
Innovation would be the only person on the planet able to play that style of tvz
Potential for huge damage if you have the micro and multitasking. Sure fire on baneling clumps. No luck involved, all skill. Makes micro players better, makes worse players even worse.
Lol. I don't think reality won because of auto-firing mines.
I didn't say he did. Reality deserved that win, he has great TvZ. I am just thinking aloud because a lot of people complain that mines "don't take skill" even though they are difficult to use effectively.
I bet TRUE is glad he was convinced to not retire by Team 8 (probably because of a salary increase after Team 8 picked up a new sponsor), because now he is in Code S...
What I like about Reality's Hellbat/Marauder push compared to Polt's variant is how it transitions into the late-game, because Polt's variant was 100% all-in without any CCs or Engineering Bays built during the attack. Cause KangHo deflected the attack, Reality can enjoy his lead without having to commit to a second attack that could fail.
On July 25 2013 14:46 lichter wrote: Whenever I did hellbat marauder I always got crushed
You must believe.
The week after HoTS came out my gameplay was basically
TvZ: hellbat marauder PvZ: choochoo PvP: DT TvT: proxy marauder ZvZ: 6pool PvT: Colossus or something TvP: Super triple drop amazing macro play ZvP: 6pool ZvT: roach bane all in
Edit: this is why waxy doesn't want to hire me for tl strategy
I really wonder what has changed in Kangho. Used to be really good in the old days, faded away, suddenly a name change and he's a very good player again.
On July 25 2013 14:46 lichter wrote: Whenever I did hellbat marauder I always got crushed
You must believe.
The week after HoTS came out my gameplay was basically
TvZ: hellbat marauder PvZ: choochoo PvP: DT TvT: proxy marauder ZvZ: 6pool PvT: Colossus or something TvP: Super triple drop amazing macro play ZvP: 6pool ZvT: roach bane all in
Edit: this is why waxy doesn't want to hire me for tl strategy
On July 25 2013 14:52 Just_a_Moth wrote: So Losira just got lucky that Reality left his widow mines out there, right?
That whole engagement was a disaster for Reality. His control wasn't focused on the bulk of his army, he lost almost every Widow Mine, 2/2 was just about to finish and KangHo had the larger army attacking Reality's at the time.
On July 25 2013 14:35 lichter wrote: What would change if widow mines were manual fire only instead of automatic fire?
No more lucky hits and total imbaness. Zergs seems to have problems at the highset elvel of play against this 4M rallypush, why dont they get a few defensive swarmhosts?
Not enough gas to get muta/ling/bling + infestation pit + upgrade + swarmhosts in time for them to be useful.
Of course you have enough gas... Just get fewer mutas and banelings. SO many mutas die to the mines, and with the constant pushing, they are hardly ever used to harass.The swarmhosts are way harder to kill and will pay for themselves reall fast.
On July 25 2013 14:55 lichter wrote: Kespa players why do you only have 1 hotkey for army those medivacs You played 10 years with 6 army hotkeys and suddenly you forget how
Putting all their units on 1 hotkey probably felt like freedom.
On July 25 2013 14:55 lichter wrote: Kespa players why do you only have 1 hotkey for army those medivacs You played 10 years with 6 army hotkeys and suddenly you forget how
You'd think they'd have more too, but I guess they are just getting lazy after all the hotkey work of bw.
On July 25 2013 14:56 Tachion wrote: sorry just tuning in, but why is reality only now getting +3 26 min into the game? so insanely late.
Initially Reality went for a Hellbat/Marauder Stim timing which didn't accomplish much, so he transitioned into two Engineering Bays fairly late. Coupled with bad hits to his economy and Reality simply could not accommodate an army and upgrades.
Impressed by both players. Losira with ling micro better than any other Zerg I've seen, Reality with keeping up with such insanity. Both players deserve to advance, but I believe Reality is the slightly better player.
On July 25 2013 14:35 lichter wrote: What would change if widow mines were manual fire only instead of automatic fire?
No more lucky hits and total imbaness. Zergs seems to have problems at the highset elvel of play against this 4M rallypush, why dont they get a few defensive swarmhosts?
Not enough gas to get muta/ling/bling + infestation pit + upgrade + swarmhosts in time for them to be useful.
Of course you have enough gas... Just get fewer mutas and banelings. SO many mutas die to the mines, and with the constant pushing, they are hardly ever used to harass.The swarmhosts are way harder to kill and will pay for themselves reall fast.
You can't just get fewer mutas/banelings when terrans pushing into your third right as the mutas are popping. The mutas are used to pick off medivacs/mines and at the 12minute ish mark when terrans start to parade push you shouldn't be losing mutas at all. It's the midgame that zerg starts having trouble vs 4m, right around the 2/2 upgrades.
Apart from that, swarm hosts are so easy to maneuver around its insane.
On July 25 2013 10:25 Rhaegal wrote: Please please please, don't turn this LR thread to shit with balance whining. There is a thread specifically for balance discussion. Can we please just watch and enjoy some great games?
You're that confident in Keen and Reality? =)
Wasn't trying to imply anything like that. But, I'm sure if Zergs win, Terrans will start baiting. And if Terran's win, Zergs will ruin the thread like they did OSL 2 nights ago.
Personally, I think it will be split. True beats Keen, Reality beats Losira. Major said True was the best player on Team 8.
When I saw him struggle I was perplexed, but then I heard he was retiring and I figured that explained his lackluster performance. Now, he's reinspired and I'll put my faith in Major's claim.
Reality I have always felt was a top tier Terran, glad to see he is performing well.
Woot! Finally got some predictions right. Now time for SoS to clean up.
On July 25 2013 15:09 bo1b wrote: Losira died as soon as that hatch was destroyed, you cant just throw away 350 minerals for free that early in the game.
On July 25 2013 15:15 Emzeeshady wrote: Please salvage this night for me Curious preferably by giving sOs a taste of his own medicine with two all ins.
But Curious is like 0-10 in GSL when doing all-ins. D:
On July 25 2013 15:15 Emzeeshady wrote: Please salvage this night for me Curious preferably by giving sOs a taste of his own medicine with two all ins.
But Curious is like 0-10 in GSL when doing all-ins. D:
He did win that 1 match a long time ago with a spinecrawler rush
On July 25 2013 15:15 Emzeeshady wrote: Please salvage this night for me Curious preferably by giving sOs a taste of his own medicine with two all ins.
But Curious is like 0-10 in GSL when doing all-ins. D:
He did win that 1 match a long time ago with a spinecrawler rush
WCS KR.
He cheesed some KeSPA Zerg right after the switch and it worked.
So I tuned in at 13:30 and somehow sOs is 170 supply with a weird composition, how does he even get there? Man sOs is such an enigma, really strange highly effective play.
On July 25 2013 15:45 Raambo11 wrote: Void Ray/HT is ridiculously strong, nothing really counters it
Swarmhosts do pretty well.
Yeah I've seen Swarm Host Corruptor demolish this on many an occasion. Not sure why Curious goes Hydra/Roach against Archon/HT/Void Ray/Chargelot, obviously not going to work.
On July 25 2013 15:45 Raambo11 wrote: Void Ray/HT is ridiculously strong, nothing really counters it
Swarmhosts do pretty well.
Yeah I've seen Swarm Host Corruptor demolish this on many an occasion. Not sure why Curious goes Hydra/Roach against Archon/HT/Void Ray/Chargelot, obviously not going to work.
Not really, swarmhosts are good even vs archons but corruptors get demolished by void rays. Swarmhost corruptor infestor is the only way to go but its not great by any means, pretty even at that point best case scenario
On July 25 2013 15:42 Emzeeshady wrote: I really really really really don't like sOs
Ah you just hate protoss in general though
Yes but I especially hate sOs
I dislike sOs for all the reasons I hate Protoss. They rely on gimmicky gameplay to wins.
I do respect the Protoss players that try to play straight up (Rain, Creator) but the vast majority make me want to vomit.
It's not exactly Protoss players faults though because Protoss is sort of gimmicky race in general. Plus that first game wasn't gimmicky. Though the second one...
On July 25 2013 15:45 Raambo11 wrote: Void Ray/HT is ridiculously strong, nothing really counters it
Swarmhosts do pretty well.
Swarmhosts don't kill void rays.
I would never have guessed
I don't really know how hard are you trolling right now.
There're two big problems with SH's in ZvP: locust don't attack air and you need to hit a critical mass of SHs to make them useful. This build abuses both of these. It hits before you can get a lot of anti-air and SHs.
On July 25 2013 15:45 Raambo11 wrote: Void Ray/HT is ridiculously strong, nothing really counters it
Swarmhosts do pretty well.
Swarmhosts don't kill void rays.
I would never have guessed
I don't really know how hard are you trolling right now.
There're two big problems with SH's in ZvP: locust don't attack air and you need to hit a critical mass of SHs to make them useful. This build abuses both of these. It hits before you can get a lot of anti-air and SHs.
I'm not trolling, just not arguing with people whose best argument is "Swarmhosts don't hit air"
On July 25 2013 15:42 Emzeeshady wrote: I really really really really don't like sOs
Ah you just hate protoss in general though
Yes but I especially hate sOs
I dislike sOs for all the reasons I hate Protoss. They rely on gimmicky gameplay to wins.
I do respect the Protoss players that try to play straight up (Rain, Creator) but the vast majority make me want to vomit.
LoL SOS went for a macro timing in all these games. The only times where he's had to constantly allin was against soulkey
Would "straight up," be colossus deathball? Because honestly, that makes me like Protoss LESS, not more. And I play Toss.
Exactly, people see anything they aren't used to coming out of toss and label it gimmicky. Would they rather see the WoL strats for the rest of HotS? I know I would be happy to never see a colossus again.
On July 25 2013 15:42 Emzeeshady wrote: I really really really really don't like sOs
Ah you just hate protoss in general though
Yes but I especially hate sOs
I dislike sOs for all the reasons I hate Protoss. They rely on gimmicky gameplay to wins.
I do respect the Protoss players that try to play straight up (Rain, Creator) but the vast majority make me want to vomit.
LoL SOS went for a macro timing in all these games. The only times where he's had to constantly allin was against soulkey
Would "straight up," be colossus deathball? Because honestly, that makes me like Protoss LESS, not more. And I play Toss.
Straight up just means you don't have to rely on deceiving your opponent to win. I would even say Parting's immortal all ins he was doing back in the day were straight up matches because everyone knew they were coming.
Straight up doesn't mean standard, people seem to be misunderstanding me.
Deceit (and conversely, scouting) is part of strategy
On July 25 2013 15:58 Emzeeshady wrote: I don't think Curious prepared very well for this series. He knows what type of a player sOs is and he should have been ready for weird shit like this.
I feel like Kespa players/teams are so much better at preparing for their opponent.
Not necessarily. Just look at the OSL. I'd say it's more like Curious's ZvP is statistically his weakest HotS matchup on top of Curious just not really being very strong in HotS in general. Not to mention sOs is one of the best PvP and PvZ players in the world.
On July 25 2013 15:58 Emzeeshady wrote: I don't think Curious prepared very well for this series. He knows what type of a player sOs is and he should have been ready for weird shit like this.
I feel like Kespa players/teams are so much better at preparing for their opponent.
Ehhh..... Not really. sOs is one of the stronger Kespa players in terms of coming up with specific builds. But there are plenty of Kespa players that seem to have no game plan at all. And some eSF players have pretty neat builds. So I am not sure it is fair to say Kespa players are so much better at preparing.
On July 25 2013 15:45 Raambo11 wrote: Void Ray/HT is ridiculously strong, nothing really counters it
Swarmhosts do pretty well.
Swarmhosts don't kill void rays.
I would never have guessed
I don't really know how hard are you trolling right now.
There're two big problems with SH's in ZvP: locust don't attack air and you need to hit a critical mass of SHs to make them useful. This build abuses both of these. It hits before you can get a lot of anti-air and SHs.
I'm not trolling, just not arguing with people whose best argument is "Swarmhosts don't hit air"
People just want SH to be a staple unit. They are mad cuz it turns out to be a very situational one which could only be effective in certain occasions with strict requirements (read:gimmicky)
On July 25 2013 15:58 Emzeeshady wrote: I don't think Curious prepared very well for this series. He knows what type of a player sOs is and he should have been ready for weird shit like this.
I feel like Kespa players/teams are so much better at preparing for their opponent.
a myth. Technically, what's the difference between a kespa team and an esf team? I mean yeah, sometimes teammates and coaches would help someone to prepare for an important game, for a snipe in proleague etc., but what exactly stops esf teams from doing the same? You know the answer.
On July 25 2013 15:42 Emzeeshady wrote: I really really really really don't like sOs
Ah you just hate protoss in general though
Yes but I especially hate sOs
I dislike sOs for all the reasons I hate Protoss. They rely on gimmicky gameplay to wins.
I do respect the Protoss players that try to play straight up (Rain, Creator) but the vast majority make me want to vomit.
LoL SOS went for a macro timing in all these games. The only times where he's had to constantly allin was against soulkey
Would "straight up," be colossus deathball? Because honestly, that makes me like Protoss LESS, not more. And I play Toss.
Straight up just means you don't have to rely on deceiving your opponent to win. I would even say Parting's immortal all ins he was doing back in the day were straight up matches because everyone knew they were coming.
Straight up doesn't mean standard, people seem to be misunderstanding me.
Deceit (and conversely, scouting) is part of strategy
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
It isn't just about playing "standard" as that had no real meaning in a few matchups atm and there is always multiple ways to play out a macro game.
It is that sOs doesn't win games by outplaying his opponent but rather by surprising him with weird strategies and tech switches. This makes him a worse player in my mind then someone like Curious who will win 90% with straight up better mechanics and skill.
Real Time Strategy
Strategy
If you want pure mechanics play Dance Dance Revolution
That isn't what I want, I enjoy the strategy part of RTS games. Imo there is a difference between doing something because it is smart and doing it because it is so weird the other player won;t expect it/know how to respond to it.
Thats what separates players like Mvp and a player like sOs.
I love Mvp but how is 2raxing Protosses smarter than the crazy shit sOs does?
Since when does Mvp only 2rax Protosses. I can only think of like 3 games.
Anyway it is the perfect build and series preparation that sets Mvp apart. Let me give you two scenarios to show you what I mean by smart strategy vs weird/cheesy strategy.
Scenario 1 Player A sees a heavy commitment to Roaches and decides to build bunkers and tanks as a reaction.
Scenario 2 Player B sees a heavy commitment to Roaches so he takes a hidden base in the top right and sacs his third.
Player A has decided to use his decision making to do a response that will defend perfectly if executed properly. Player B has decided on a defence that will work perfectly if he gets lucky and if the other player doesn't scout the hidden base.
In my opinion Player A is better because he can win without tricks and randomness.
Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions on how they prefer the game to be played. Hating on certain styles, though, is not really fair. Anything that ends up winning should be accepted as a legitimate strategy.
On July 25 2013 15:42 Emzeeshady wrote: I really really really really don't like sOs
Ah you just hate protoss in general though
Yes but I especially hate sOs
I dislike sOs for all the reasons I hate Protoss. They rely on gimmicky gameplay to wins.
I do respect the Protoss players that try to play straight up (Rain, Creator) but the vast majority make me want to vomit.
LoL SOS went for a macro timing in all these games. The only times where he's had to constantly allin was against soulkey
Would "straight up," be colossus deathball? Because honestly, that makes me like Protoss LESS, not more. And I play Toss.
Straight up just means you don't have to rely on deceiving your opponent to win. I would even say Parting's immortal all ins he was doing back in the day were straight up matches because everyone knew they were coming.
Straight up doesn't mean standard, people seem to be misunderstanding me.
Deceit (and conversely, scouting) is part of strategy
On July 25 2013 14:10 Emzeeshady wrote: Great, True and sOs going to cheese better players out of Code S...
In what world is Curious better than sOs?
This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
It isn't just about playing "standard" as that had no real meaning in a few matchups atm and there is always multiple ways to play out a macro game.
It is that sOs doesn't win games by outplaying his opponent but rather by surprising him with weird strategies and tech switches. This makes him a worse player in my mind then someone like Curious who will win 90% with straight up better mechanics and skill.
Real Time Strategy
Strategy
If you want pure mechanics play Dance Dance Revolution
That isn't what I want, I enjoy the strategy part of RTS games. Imo there is a difference between doing something because it is smart and doing it because it is so weird the other player won;t expect it/know how to respond to it.
Thats what separates players like Mvp and a player like sOs.
I love Mvp but how is 2raxing Protosses smarter than the crazy shit sOs does?
Since when does Mvp only 2rax Protosses. I can only think of like 3 games.
Anyway it is the perfect build and series preparation that sets Mvp apart. Let me give you two scenarios to show you what I mean by smart strategy vs weird/cheesy strategy.
Scenario 1 Player A sees a heavy commitment to Roaches and decides to build bunkers and tanks as a reaction.
Scenario 2 Player B sees a heavy commitment to Roaches so he takes a hidden base in the top right and sacs his third.
Player A has decided to use his decision making to do a response that will defend perfectly if executed properly. Player B has decided on a defence that will work perfectly if he gets lucky and if the other player doesn't scout the hidden base.
In my opinion Player A is better because he can win without tricks and randomness.
I did see it, but it doesn't make any sense to compare sOs' builds (which are easy to scout, not proxied, and not always all-in) to a hidden third. If you can come up with a more analogous comparison I will continue debating that matter with you.
If it was up to emzeeshady there would be only 2 races.
Protoss is basically designed as a gimmicky race. Their raw power capacity is garbage. The basic units (zealots/stalkers/immortals/whatever) all get murdered in straight up even supply fights with terran or zerg standard units.
You can obviously just win if you are straight up better than your opponent but you need to use every trick protoss has to win against even level players, which is why protoss struggle at the highest level. Good players don't fall for that shit.
I am a dick for making this poll. Sorry Emzeeshady.
No worries but I think you should change the name of your poll to antifanboyism because I don't really like anyone of these players (except perhaps Losira).
Sorry, now I feel more like a dick.
Also, everyone who said it is annoying is wrong, because if you read the spoiler you will actually that the correct answer is 'I am a dick.'
On July 25 2013 15:42 Emzeeshady wrote: I really really really really don't like sOs
Ah you just hate protoss in general though
Yes but I especially hate sOs
I dislike sOs for all the reasons I hate Protoss. They rely on gimmicky gameplay to wins.
I do respect the Protoss players that try to play straight up (Rain, Creator) but the vast majority make me want to vomit.
LoL SOS went for a macro timing in all these games. The only times where he's had to constantly allin was against soulkey
Would "straight up," be colossus deathball? Because honestly, that makes me like Protoss LESS, not more. And I play Toss.
Straight up just means you don't have to rely on deceiving your opponent to win. I would even say Parting's immortal all ins he was doing back in the day were straight up matches because everyone knew they were coming.
Straight up doesn't mean standard, people seem to be misunderstanding me.
Deceit (and conversely, scouting) is part of strategy
I really don't understand you
U don't seem to
I hope this helps if you missed it earlier.
On July 25 2013 14:40 Emzeeshady wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:33 lichter wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:31 Emzeeshady wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:27 lichter wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:25 Emzeeshady wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:21 bo1b wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:20 Elite_ wrote: [quote] This world. Are you new to SC2 this year or have you always considered an nonstandard player better than a standard player?
Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
It isn't just about playing "standard" as that had no real meaning in a few matchups atm and there is always multiple ways to play out a macro game.
It is that sOs doesn't win games by outplaying his opponent but rather by surprising him with weird strategies and tech switches. This makes him a worse player in my mind then someone like Curious who will win 90% with straight up better mechanics and skill.
Real Time Strategy
Strategy
If you want pure mechanics play Dance Dance Revolution
That isn't what I want, I enjoy the strategy part of RTS games. Imo there is a difference between doing something because it is smart and doing it because it is so weird the other player won;t expect it/know how to respond to it.
Thats what separates players like Mvp and a player like sOs.
I love Mvp but how is 2raxing Protosses smarter than the crazy shit sOs does?
Since when does Mvp only 2rax Protosses. I can only think of like 3 games.
Anyway it is the perfect build and series preparation that sets Mvp apart. Let me give you two scenarios to show you what I mean by smart strategy vs weird/cheesy strategy.
Scenario 1 Player A sees a heavy commitment to Roaches and decides to build bunkers and tanks as a reaction.
Scenario 2 Player B sees a heavy commitment to Roaches so he takes a hidden base in the top right and sacs his third.
Player A has decided to use his decision making to do a response that will defend perfectly if executed properly. Player B has decided on a defence that will work perfectly if he gets lucky and if the other player doesn't scout the hidden base.
In my opinion Player A is better because he can win without tricks and randomness.
I did see it, but it doesn't make any sense to compare sOs' builds (which are easy to scout, not proxied, and not always all-in) to a hidden third. If you can come up with a more analogous comparison I will continue debating that matter with you.
Well SoS's choice to build Void Rays in game one after the first Phoenix was kind of what I am talking about. If Curious knows what sOs is doing then void rays are an inferior choice to Phoenix but he relied on Curious not scouting to make his build stronger.
As a result he takes out Curious's third because he has no mobile anti air. If his Void ray switch is scouting Curious saves drones from not building spores, he makes faster hydras to save his fourth and has a much faster infestation pit. With infestors swelled with energy and possibly queens he should be able to hold off sOs's push and win the game.
And how is hiding Void rays not an intelligent risk? Yes it relies on Curious missing the voidrays but that's what the first phoenix is for, to remove overlords from the vicinity. Building just one phoenix is useless unless your intention is scouting denial. The fact that Curious did not notice that there was only one phoenix killing his overlords is Curious' fault. sOs' build and use of the phoenix helped.
The voidray choice isn't purely random. Its intention is to protect sOs' early third. The only way to kill that third is with roaches because of the cannon/gateway wall.
His choices aren't random. He has a plan. How his plans are any less intelligent than the players you laud makes no sense to me. Not liking his gameplay or his personality is fine, but insisting that he isn't good or his builds aren't intelligent is complete denial. Give credit where credit is due. I may hate Parting but the guy knows how to win, and I think he is a fantastic player.
In a game with limited information, all scouting is based on luck.
I dislike sOs for all the reasons I hate Protoss. They rely on gimmicky gameplay to wins.
I do respect the Protoss players that try to play straight up (Rain, Creator) but the vast majority make me want to vomit.
LoL SOS went for a macro timing in all these games. The only times where he's had to constantly allin was against soulkey
Would "straight up," be colossus deathball? Because honestly, that makes me like Protoss LESS, not more. And I play Toss.
Straight up just means you don't have to rely on deceiving your opponent to win. I would even say Parting's immortal all ins he was doing back in the day were straight up matches because everyone knew they were coming.
Straight up doesn't mean standard, people seem to be misunderstanding me.
Deceit (and conversely, scouting) is part of strategy
I really don't understand you
U don't seem to
I hope this helps if you missed it earlier.
On July 25 2013 14:40 Emzeeshady wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:33 lichter wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:31 Emzeeshady wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:27 lichter wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:25 Emzeeshady wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:21 bo1b wrote: [quote] Nonstandard < standard is a fallacy I really hope the sc2 community grows out of, especially since out of tvz there really isn't a standard style of play which accounts for pretty much everything.
It isn't just about playing "standard" as that had no real meaning in a few matchups atm and there is always multiple ways to play out a macro game.
It is that sOs doesn't win games by outplaying his opponent but rather by surprising him with weird strategies and tech switches. This makes him a worse player in my mind then someone like Curious who will win 90% with straight up better mechanics and skill.
Real Time Strategy
Strategy
If you want pure mechanics play Dance Dance Revolution
That isn't what I want, I enjoy the strategy part of RTS games. Imo there is a difference between doing something because it is smart and doing it because it is so weird the other player won;t expect it/know how to respond to it.
Thats what separates players like Mvp and a player like sOs.
I love Mvp but how is 2raxing Protosses smarter than the crazy shit sOs does?
Since when does Mvp only 2rax Protosses. I can only think of like 3 games.
Anyway it is the perfect build and series preparation that sets Mvp apart. Let me give you two scenarios to show you what I mean by smart strategy vs weird/cheesy strategy.
Scenario 1 Player A sees a heavy commitment to Roaches and decides to build bunkers and tanks as a reaction.
Scenario 2 Player B sees a heavy commitment to Roaches so he takes a hidden base in the top right and sacs his third.
Player A has decided to use his decision making to do a response that will defend perfectly if executed properly. Player B has decided on a defence that will work perfectly if he gets lucky and if the other player doesn't scout the hidden base.
In my opinion Player A is better because he can win without tricks and randomness.
I did see it, but it doesn't make any sense to compare sOs' builds (which are easy to scout, not proxied, and not always all-in) to a hidden third. If you can come up with a more analogous comparison I will continue debating that matter with you.
Well SoS's choice to build Void Rays in game one after the first Phoenix was kind of what I am talking about. If Curious knows what sOs is doing then void rays are an inferior choice to Phoenix but he relied on Curious not scouting to make his build stronger.
As a result he takes out Curious's third because he has no mobile anti air. If his Void ray switch is scouting Curious saves drones from not building spores, he makes faster hydras to save his fourth and has a much faster infestation pit. With infestors swelled with energy and possibly queens he should be able to hold off sOs's push and win the game.
And how is hiding Void rays not an intelligent risk? Yes it relies on Curious missing the voidrays but that's what the first phoenix is for, to remove overlords from the vicinity. Building just one phoenix is useless unless your intention is scouting denial. The fact that Curious did not notice that there was only one phoenix killing his overlords is Curious' fault. sOs' build and use of the phoenix helped.
The voidray choice isn't purely random. Its intention is to protect sOs' early third. The only way to kill that third is with roaches because of the cannon/gateway wall.
His choices aren't random. He has a plan. How his plans are any less intelligent than the players you laud makes no sense to me. Not liking his gameplay or his personality is fine, but insisting that he isn't good or his builds aren't intelligent is complete denial. Give credit where credit is due. I may hate Parting but the guy knows how to win, and I think he is a fantastic player.
In a game with limited information, all scouting is based on luck.
nah dude gotta build zealots and stalkers only and lose to mass roach every game
On July 25 2013 15:49 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] Yes but I especially hate sOs
I dislike sOs for all the reasons I hate Protoss. They rely on gimmicky gameplay to wins.
I do respect the Protoss players that try to play straight up (Rain, Creator) but the vast majority make me want to vomit.
LoL SOS went for a macro timing in all these games. The only times where he's had to constantly allin was against soulkey
Would "straight up," be colossus deathball? Because honestly, that makes me like Protoss LESS, not more. And I play Toss.
Straight up just means you don't have to rely on deceiving your opponent to win. I would even say Parting's immortal all ins he was doing back in the day were straight up matches because everyone knew they were coming.
Straight up doesn't mean standard, people seem to be misunderstanding me.
Deceit (and conversely, scouting) is part of strategy
I really don't understand you
U don't seem to
I hope this helps if you missed it earlier.
On July 25 2013 14:40 Emzeeshady wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:33 lichter wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:31 Emzeeshady wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:27 lichter wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:25 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] It isn't just about playing "standard" as that had no real meaning in a few matchups atm and there is always multiple ways to play out a macro game.
It is that sOs doesn't win games by outplaying his opponent but rather by surprising him with weird strategies and tech switches. This makes him a worse player in my mind then someone like Curious who will win 90% with straight up better mechanics and skill.
Real Time Strategy
Strategy
If you want pure mechanics play Dance Dance Revolution
That isn't what I want, I enjoy the strategy part of RTS games. Imo there is a difference between doing something because it is smart and doing it because it is so weird the other player won;t expect it/know how to respond to it.
Thats what separates players like Mvp and a player like sOs.
I love Mvp but how is 2raxing Protosses smarter than the crazy shit sOs does?
Since when does Mvp only 2rax Protosses. I can only think of like 3 games.
Anyway it is the perfect build and series preparation that sets Mvp apart. Let me give you two scenarios to show you what I mean by smart strategy vs weird/cheesy strategy.
Scenario 1 Player A sees a heavy commitment to Roaches and decides to build bunkers and tanks as a reaction.
Scenario 2 Player B sees a heavy commitment to Roaches so he takes a hidden base in the top right and sacs his third.
Player A has decided to use his decision making to do a response that will defend perfectly if executed properly. Player B has decided on a defence that will work perfectly if he gets lucky and if the other player doesn't scout the hidden base.
In my opinion Player A is better because he can win without tricks and randomness.
I did see it, but it doesn't make any sense to compare sOs' builds (which are easy to scout, not proxied, and not always all-in) to a hidden third. If you can come up with a more analogous comparison I will continue debating that matter with you.
Well SoS's choice to build Void Rays in game one after the first Phoenix was kind of what I am talking about. If Curious knows what sOs is doing then void rays are an inferior choice to Phoenix but he relied on Curious not scouting to make his build stronger.
As a result he takes out Curious's third because he has no mobile anti air. If his Void ray switch is scouting Curious saves drones from not building spores, he makes faster hydras to save his fourth and has a much faster infestation pit. With infestors swelled with energy and possibly queens he should be able to hold off sOs's push and win the game.
And how is hiding Void rays not an intelligent risk? Yes it relies on Curious missing the voidrays but that's what the first phoenix is for, to remove overlords from the vicinity. Building just one phoenix is useless unless your intention is scouting denial. The fact that Curious did not notice that there was only one phoenix killing his overlords is Curious' fault. sOs' build and use of the phoenix helped.
The voidray choice isn't purely random. Its intention is to protect sOs' early third. The only way to kill that third is with roaches because of the cannon/gateway wall.
His choices aren't random. He has a plan. How his plans are any less intelligent than the players you laud makes no sense to me. Not liking his gameplay or his personality is fine, but insisting that he isn't good or his builds aren't intelligent is complete denial. Give credit where credit is due. I may hate Parting but the guy knows how to win, and I think he is a fantastic player.
In a game with limited information, all scouting is based on luck.
I don't think the Phoenix was to deny scouting, I think it was to deceive Curious into thinking he was doing the usual "get 5 Phoenix to pick off drones and overlords". 1 Phoenix will not deny two overlords scouting sOs's base and if they had scouted it sOs would have been in trouble.
Obviously he has a plan but his plans rely on things out of his control unlike a plan that will work even if your opponent sees what you are doing. Also if this even needs to be said all these players are fantastic to even make it to Code A/S, I just think that Curious is the better player if the two (although possibly worse at this matchup).
What I don't understand is how that makes sOs' playstyle gimmicky. He builds a phoenix to deny overlord scouting which in combination with a stalker does deny two overlords, kills even more overlords on the map (which means he denies scouting a potential attack on its way) and possibly supply blocks Curious. Building the void rays doesn't necessarily mean he has to attack with them. If Curious scouts it then sOs can just play it out like a standard 3SG build with an early third, except that he made a phoenix earlier that gave him the possibility to do the timing he did. In other words, the way sOs played was a solid, proven macro build but he put a twist in there that gave him the chance to just straight up win the game if Curious didn't read him perfectly. That to me is smart as hell and not gimmicky at all. It's not like he'd have been behind if Curious had scouted him.
I am a dick for making this poll. Sorry Emzeeshady.
No worries but I think you should change the name of your poll to antifanboyism because I don't really like anyone of these players (except perhaps Losira).
Sorry, now I feel more like a dick.
Also, everyone who said it is annoying is wrong, because if you read the spoiler you will actually that the correct answer is 'I am a dick.'
On July 25 2013 15:49 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] Yes but I especially hate sOs
I dislike sOs for all the reasons I hate Protoss. They rely on gimmicky gameplay to wins.
I do respect the Protoss players that try to play straight up (Rain, Creator) but the vast majority make me want to vomit.
LoL SOS went for a macro timing in all these games. The only times where he's had to constantly allin was against soulkey
Would "straight up," be colossus deathball? Because honestly, that makes me like Protoss LESS, not more. And I play Toss.
Straight up just means you don't have to rely on deceiving your opponent to win. I would even say Parting's immortal all ins he was doing back in the day were straight up matches because everyone knew they were coming.
Straight up doesn't mean standard, people seem to be misunderstanding me.
Deceit (and conversely, scouting) is part of strategy
I really don't understand you
U don't seem to
I hope this helps if you missed it earlier.
On July 25 2013 14:40 Emzeeshady wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:33 lichter wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:31 Emzeeshady wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:27 lichter wrote:
On July 25 2013 14:25 Emzeeshady wrote: [quote] It isn't just about playing "standard" as that had no real meaning in a few matchups atm and there is always multiple ways to play out a macro game.
It is that sOs doesn't win games by outplaying his opponent but rather by surprising him with weird strategies and tech switches. This makes him a worse player in my mind then someone like Curious who will win 90% with straight up better mechanics and skill.
Real Time Strategy
Strategy
If you want pure mechanics play Dance Dance Revolution
That isn't what I want, I enjoy the strategy part of RTS games. Imo there is a difference between doing something because it is smart and doing it because it is so weird the other player won;t expect it/know how to respond to it.
Thats what separates players like Mvp and a player like sOs.
I love Mvp but how is 2raxing Protosses smarter than the crazy shit sOs does?
Since when does Mvp only 2rax Protosses. I can only think of like 3 games.
Anyway it is the perfect build and series preparation that sets Mvp apart. Let me give you two scenarios to show you what I mean by smart strategy vs weird/cheesy strategy.
Scenario 1 Player A sees a heavy commitment to Roaches and decides to build bunkers and tanks as a reaction.
Scenario 2 Player B sees a heavy commitment to Roaches so he takes a hidden base in the top right and sacs his third.
Player A has decided to use his decision making to do a response that will defend perfectly if executed properly. Player B has decided on a defence that will work perfectly if he gets lucky and if the other player doesn't scout the hidden base.
In my opinion Player A is better because he can win without tricks and randomness.
I did see it, but it doesn't make any sense to compare sOs' builds (which are easy to scout, not proxied, and not always all-in) to a hidden third. If you can come up with a more analogous comparison I will continue debating that matter with you.
Well SoS's choice to build Void Rays in game one after the first Phoenix was kind of what I am talking about. If Curious knows what sOs is doing then void rays are an inferior choice to Phoenix but he relied on Curious not scouting to make his build stronger.
As a result he takes out Curious's third because he has no mobile anti air. If his Void ray switch is scouting Curious saves drones from not building spores, he makes faster hydras to save his fourth and has a much faster infestation pit. With infestors swelled with energy and possibly queens he should be able to hold off sOs's push and win the game.
And how is hiding Void rays not an intelligent risk? Yes it relies on Curious missing the voidrays but that's what the first phoenix is for, to remove overlords from the vicinity. Building just one phoenix is useless unless your intention is scouting denial. The fact that Curious did not notice that there was only one phoenix killing his overlords is Curious' fault. sOs' build and use of the phoenix helped.
The voidray choice isn't purely random. Its intention is to protect sOs' early third. The only way to kill that third is with roaches because of the cannon/gateway wall.
His choices aren't random. He has a plan. How his plans are any less intelligent than the players you laud makes no sense to me. Not liking his gameplay or his personality is fine, but insisting that he isn't good or his builds aren't intelligent is complete denial. Give credit where credit is due. I may hate Parting but the guy knows how to win, and I think he is a fantastic player.
In a game with limited information, all scouting is based on luck.
I don't think the Phoenix was to deny scouting, I think it was to deceive Curious into thinking he was doing the usual "get 5 Phoenix to pick off drones and overlords". 1 Phoenix will not deny two overlords scouting sOs's base and if they had scouted it sOs would have been in trouble.
Obviously he has a plan but his plans rely on things out of his control unlike a plan that will work even if your opponent sees what you are doing. Also if this even needs to be said all these players are fantastic to even make it to Code A/S, I just think that Curious is the better player if the two (although possibly worse at this matchup).
It's hard to trick a Zerg with just 1 phoenix when they build so quickly. It is almost impossible not to spot the second one with one of your sac'ing overlords. Hallucinated phoenixes are also easy to spot since they fire automatically. When Curious built his spore crawlers, there was already one hidden voidray out. There was an Overseer in the bottom right corner of the map, behind sOs' main. 2 voidrays killed it. I don't recall when it happened, however. Curious had every opportunity to scout the build, but he didn't.
If Curious had scouted the build, he would have either built more queens or quicker hydras. This would allow sOs to have a relatively safe third since no way hydras walk there in time to kill it. To me the sniped 4th just looked like a bonus. I don't believe sOs was even expecting to kill it, as you see him hesitate for a bit before going in.
Scouting is based on luck. This game has limited information. Even between standard games, not scouting will lead to a loss. If for example in PvT, Protoss goes HT first (which is legitimate), Terran must get ghosts. If he goes Colossus, Terran gets vikings. Scouting is necessary in both cases and it is possible to miss it even with scans. Does a win because of 'unlucky scouting' invalidate the win? The two possible builds are standard but can be left unscouted, and the result is the same; the opposing player is unable to prepare sufficiently. The only difference from "nonstandard" builds is that the response is known. In nonstandard builds, the standard player needs to think on his feet and react with his game sense, which is an invaluable skill.
On July 25 2013 16:29 StarStruck wrote: Just say you hate protoss and let it be over with lmao.
This has nothing to do with Protoss although I assume you didn't even read what I wrote.
and to Lichter, I am sorry that you disagree with me but thanks for reading what I had to say and trying to understand. Most people don't even try and just make sarcastic comments.
I don't think there is anything I can say to make you believe me so I guess there is no need in continuing to try and do so.
I did read it. I have a few questions for you: what do you think of MC? What do you think about PartinG? You have beef about gimmicks and I say Protoss have to make use of what they got. I don't know how you could possibly have beef with sHy. You like Curious more, which is fine but I dare you poll the audience when it comes to sHy and Curious. I bet you sHy would be the odds on favorite and he has been for a while.
On July 25 2013 16:29 StarStruck wrote: Just say you hate protoss and let it be over with lmao.
This has nothing to do with Protoss although I assume you didn't even read what I wrote.
and to Lichter, I am sorry that you disagree with me but thanks for reading what I had to say and trying to understand. Most people don't even try and just make sarcastic comments.
I don't think there is anything I can say to make you believe me so I guess there is no need in continuing to try and do so.
I did read it. I have a few questions for you: what do you think of MC? What do you think about PartinG? You have beef about gimmicks and I say Protoss have to make use of what they got. I don't know how you could possibly have beef with sHy. You like Curious more, which is fine but I dare you poll the audience when it comes to sHy and Curious. I bet you sHy would be the odds on favorite and he has been for a while.
I like MC for his personality but I hate his gameplay.
I dislike Parting for his personality but i like his gameplay.
The bolded part is why I have a problem with Protoss more then anything. I guess it is unfair to blame the players for Protoss's terrible design but some abuse it more then others.
Interesting. My point stands, you like PartinG's style yet many people would call his Soul build gimmicky. it is unfair to blame the player's for playing in the manner they have to play. You can only use the tools Blizzard gives you man. You have to get creative and guess what? Players like MC, PartinG, HerO, sHy, etc. have shown us that they can get pretty crafty until other guys figure it out.
EPT
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