(Vote): SK Telecom 4-0 CJ Entus (Vote): SK Telecom 4-1 CJ Entus (Vote): SK Telecom 4-2 CJ Entus (Vote): SK Telecom 4-3 CJ Entus (Vote): CJ Entus 4-0 SK Telecom (Vote): CJ Entus 4-1 SK Telecom (Vote): CJ Entus 4-2 SK Telecom (Vote): CJ Entus 4-3 SK Telecom
Poll: Most anticipated match?
Effort vs Fantasy (9)
64%
Hydra vs PartinG (3)
21%
rare vs Rain (1)
7%
CJ Entus 4-0 SK Telecom (1)
7%
herO vs Brown (0)
0%
Bbyong vs s2 (0)
0%
Bong vs BeSt (0)
0%
14 total votes
Your vote: Most anticipated match?
(Vote): Effort vs Fantasy (Vote): rare vs Rain (Vote): herO vs Brown (Vote): Hydra vs PartinG (Vote): CJ Entus 4-0 SK Telecom (Vote): Bbyong vs s2 (Vote): Bong vs BeSt
why the heck does fantasy keep on spamming widow mines? They haven't been of any use to him, but still he uses them instead of just more bio which would just chew through efforts army.
On April 29 2013 18:49 Type|NarutO wrote: The game would have been already over with 12 tanks instead of 18 widowmines I feel :x
Well it's hard to say TBH, after that first deflection and upon seeing tanks, Effort could have gone immediatly into viper and crushed whatever would have came... The main mistake from fanta was going for a full frontal attack when he saw that comp, he should have gone into drop all over da place mode while effort didnt have spines everywhere...
Good strategy by Terran users. Dont use tanks, make Zerg forget how powerful they are, EffOrt taking direct engagement vs tanks, gets raped. 'Tanks still good ;;
On April 29 2013 18:59 Sc2zero7 wrote: I'd love to see zergs start mass nydusing on big maps like this. Kind of like the mobility of drop ships but you can retreat to defend at same time.
Nydus play would be a great complement to roach hydra zvt... But havent seen much use of it...
On April 29 2013 18:59 Sc2zero7 wrote: I'd love to see zergs start mass nydusing on big maps like this. Kind of like the mobility of drop ships but you can retreat to defend at same time.
Nydus play would be a great complement to roach hydra zvt... But havent seen much use of it...
wouldnt it be super easy to kill nydus with drops?
On April 29 2013 18:59 Sc2zero7 wrote: I'd love to see zergs start mass nydusing on big maps like this. Kind of like the mobility of drop ships but you can retreat to defend at same time.
Nydus play would be a great complement to roach hydra zvt... But havent seen much use of it...
wouldnt it be super easy to kill nydus with drops?
nydus with static defense would be the way to go IMO
Defensively of course, but offensively also (with the creep that is spread by the nydus.
I liked what effort tried to do there. Hydra/swarm host could actually deal a lot of damage against a bio/mine army. Problem is that on a big map like this terran forces zerg to be on defensive for a while with drops, and effort's army composition is slow to respond. Also this fails hard to a tank-heavy army. Really good response by fantasy.
Effort played that pretty well at the early stages and even later with the Swarm Hosts. He always got a wave of Locusts out before moving the Swarm Hosts so that he always had stuff to tank damage so that Fantasy couldn't snipe them. His army was stronger than Fantasy's at that point (Swarmhost-Hydra-Infestor > Bio-Mine-Medivac) but the weakness of that composition is drops. He should have had more static defense and then attacked after getting enough Spores and Spines and a decent bank. Effort could have traded really well and attacked into the production when Fantasy was still on Bio+Mines and then re-maxed with Ultralisks. But he didn't have a good defense and he never attacked so Fantasy took the opportunities to be the aggressive player.
In short: Effort lost because he missed his timing to be aggressive and because he didn't have enough static defense.
On April 29 2013 19:06 EpiK wrote: I liked what effort tried to do there. Hydra/swarm host could actually deal a lot of damage against a bio/mine army. Problem is that on a big map like this terran forces zerg to be on defensive for a while with drops, and effort's army composition is slow to respond. Also this fails hard to a tank-heavy switch. Really good response by fantasy.
A lot of people talking about tanks forget about vipers... IMO the infestor tech choice wasnt that good because infestor and roach hydra are a bit redundant in their function of rolling over pure bio. he should have gone straight into vipers after SH who make tanks so useless its not even funny.
it would've been nice to see effort switch to mutas as soon as he saw all those tanks. There was a point where fantasy had very little anti-air. His army was mostly marauder/tank and he stopped making widow mines.
On April 29 2013 19:08 Yello wrote: Effort played that pretty well at the early stages and even later with the Swarm Hosts. He always got a wave of Locusts out before moving the Swarm Hosts so that he always had stuff to tank damage so that Fantasy couldn't snipe them. His army was stronger than Fantasy's at that point (Swarmhost-Hydra-Infestor > Bio-Mine-Medivac) but the weakness of that composition is drops. He should have had more static defense and then attacked after getting enough Spores and Spines and a decent bank. Effort could have traded really well and attacked into the production when Fantasy was still on Bio+Mines and then re-maxed with Ultralisks. But he didn't have a good defense and he never attacked so Fantasy took the opportunities to be the aggressive player.
In short: Effort lost because he missed his timing to be aggressive and because he didn't have enough static defense.
Building more static defense might cost him the attack-timing though.
rare looked REALLY solid against Flash last week, and isn't Rain's weakest matchup PvZ atm? This could actually be an upset. Or maybe I'm just in denial about how bad this is gonna be.
On April 29 2013 19:15 evergreensc wrote: rare looked REALLY solid against Flash last week, and isn't Rain's weakest matchup PvZ atm? This could actually be an upset. Or maybe I'm just in denial about how bad this is gonna be.
yes, if you like to see the big bad boy beating up the small child.
Yeah, that was a pretty terrible game unless you really need reminding that phoenix counter mutas.
it was more then just that. Rain just defended everything rare tried to throw at him. First a bunch of Lings, then Ling-Roach aggression, then more Roaches, then the Muta-switch, then Roach-Muta attacks. rare just couldn't do any damage to Rain's economy or tech
On April 29 2013 19:32 evergreensc wrote: See tons of phoenixes, make more mutas.
What the hell, rare.
+Make corrupters. Even worse. Those things are worthless against range phoenix.
They are good to tank pheonix damage if toss doesnt micro or slips up. Maybe he had hoped there will be time to get some infestors and get decent fungal.
So many Mutas the opponent had air attack and the Zerg went for the armor upgrade so late. But Rain seemed to have the upper hand in the Phoenix vs Muta micro anyway. It is also funny that Phoenix outrange Corruptors now.
yes, if you like to see the big bad boy beating up the small child.
Yeah, that was a pretty terrible game unless you really need reminding that phoenix counter mutas.
it was more then just that. Rain just defended everything rare tried to throw at him. First a bunch of Lings, then Ling-Roach aggression, then more Roaches, then the Muta-switch, then Roach-Muta attacks. rare just couldn't do any damage to Rain's economy or tech
So what you're saying is earlygame he had zealots, midgame he had forcefields, and lategame he had phoenixes.
yes, if you like to see the big bad boy beating up the small child.
Yeah, that was a pretty terrible game unless you really need reminding that phoenix counter mutas.
it was more then just that. Rain just defended everything rare tried to throw at him. First a bunch of Lings, then Ling-Roach aggression, then more Roaches, then the Muta-switch, then Roach-Muta attacks. rare just couldn't do any damage to Rain's economy or tech
So what you're saying is earlygame he had zealots, midgame he had forcefields, and lategame he had phoenixes.
It isn't as simple as that, otherwise stacraft would be boring as hell.
yes, if you like to see the big bad boy beating up the small child.
Yeah, that was a pretty terrible game unless you really need reminding that phoenix counter mutas.
it was more then just that. Rain just defended everything rare tried to throw at him. First a bunch of Lings, then Ling-Roach aggression, then more Roaches, then the Muta-switch, then Roach-Muta attacks. rare just couldn't do any damage to Rain's economy or tech
So what you're saying is earlygame he had zealots, midgame he had forcefields, and lategame he had phoenixes.
I've had lings run-by and kill my economy despite having slowlots, I've been known to slightly miss a forcefield and have roaches roll over my army and take an easy game, and it is possible to mismicro your phoenixes for a second and have mutas kill a chunk of them.
yes, if you like to see the big bad boy beating up the small child.
Yeah, that was a pretty terrible game unless you really need reminding that phoenix counter mutas.
it was more then just that. Rain just defended everything rare tried to throw at him. First a bunch of Lings, then Ling-Roach aggression, then more Roaches, then the Muta-switch, then Roach-Muta attacks. rare just couldn't do any damage to Rain's economy or tech
So what you're saying is earlygame he had zealots, midgame he had forcefields, and lategame he had phoenixes.
He build the right amount of units at the right timings and he used them perfectly. Give some credit to that guy, he deserves it.
yes, if you like to see the big bad boy beating up the small child.
Yeah, that was a pretty terrible game unless you really need reminding that phoenix counter mutas.
it was more then just that. Rain just defended everything rare tried to throw at him. First a bunch of Lings, then Ling-Roach aggression, then more Roaches, then the Muta-switch, then Roach-Muta attacks. rare just couldn't do any damage to Rain's economy or tech
So what you're saying is earlygame he had zealots, midgame he had forcefields, and lategame he had phoenixes.
It isn't as simple as that, otherwise stacraft would be boring as hell.
I know, I'm oversimplifying it, but rare did absolutely nothing special. That was standard, textbook PvZ except for the part where the Zerg is supposed to do anything special or hard to predict.
Also sorry if this is coming off as bashing Rain, he played near-perfectly, as always. The game just wasn't good at all. It was super, super standard, and the same defense could have been done by someone with half the skill of Rain.
On April 29 2013 20:00 EleanorRIgby wrote: anyone give me a brief recap of effort vs fnatasy plzzzz?
Fantasy got up to 3 bases with out any problems (cross spawn on whirlwind), kept dropping marine marauder over the map and denying bases. Effort went roach hydra early game and added swarm hosts to counter the bio mine. Effort gets caught out of position with his main army going for an attack while fantasy dropped 3 drop ships in his main and tried for the base trade, but fantasy switched into tank production and turltled up while killing effort's main and bases around the map. Both players had a huge bank but Effort had no production and couldn't drone back up or break Fantasy's tank + planetary fortress. Effort couldn't transition out fast enough into infestor and dies to marine marauder tank siege.
On April 29 2013 20:00 EleanorRIgby wrote: anyone give me a brief recap of effort vs fnatasy plzzzz?
Fantasy got up to 3 bases with out any problems (cross spawn on whirlwind), kept dropping marine marauder over the map and denying bases. Effort went roach hydra early game and added swarm hosts to counter the bio mine. Effort gets caught out of position with his main army going for an attack while fantasy dropped 3 drop ships in his main and tried for the base trade, but fantasy switched into tank production and turltled up while killing effort's main and bases around the map. Both players had a huge bank but Effort had no production and couldn't drone back up or break Fantasy's tank + planetary fortress. Effort couldn't transition out fast enough into infestor and dies to marine marauder tank siege.
damn sucks for effort, seems more and more zergs are going roach/hydra in zvt. Really got to add in infestors and then vipers once the bio count get really high though, mines are also not nearly as good vs roach/hydra.
On April 29 2013 20:24 Salteador Neo wrote: Just connected to the stream to see Hydra donate a big bunch of free Swarmhosts... and now Parting is losing? T.T wtf
On April 29 2013 20:24 Salteador Neo wrote: Just connected to the stream to see Hydra donate a big bunch of free Swarmhosts... and now Parting is losing? T.T wtf
Hm and I thought Parting looked better lately. But Hydra tried so hart to lose the game and didn't manage to. On the other hand Parting is probably just training PvT right now.
On April 29 2013 20:24 Salteador Neo wrote: Just connected to the stream to see Hydra donate a big bunch of free Swarmhosts... and now Parting is losing? T.T wtf
tripple ling run by saved him
Yep that did it for sure. Went from 70 to 36 probes from what I saw. Ouch.
Ling run by completely destroyed PartinG and he refused to remake probes after that for some reason. Completely crippled his economy. That was a very good call by Hydra.
On April 29 2013 20:27 xinxy wrote: Ling run by completely destroyed PartinG and he refused to remake probes after that for some reason. Completely crippled his economy. That was a very good call by Hydra.
He had to make colossi or he would just flat out die. Also, his main was dry on minerals.
On April 29 2013 20:20 poisui wrote: Now that all the swarm hosts are dead, maybe Hydra will win.
Hu ? Hydra still had Swarmhosts the whole game, didn't you see all the weak Locust on the map, some call them Roaches ! They only work effective if you your opponent is below 140 supply though.
On April 29 2013 20:43 opterown wrote: i sort of hope CJ can close it out, they're a bit disappointing in HotS so far and I like seeing them do well (especially herO)
Also for people claiming the map needs to be removed, both Flash and now bbyong have lost to build order loses. They'd lose the same way on any other map.
Well whaddaya know, apparently someone who engages in revolutions can be both a revolutionary and a revolutionist. You learn something new every day I guess.
On April 29 2013 20:51 OrchidThief wrote: What the hell is a revolutionist?
as far as i know bisu did revolutionize something in a matchup in BW. thats why he's called a revolutionist
EDIT: was it corsair/reaver in PvZ?
FFE -> Corsair DT. Basically, just making FFE a standard in PvZ, since it already existed before the revolution, just not as popular and effective as it is even until now.
On April 29 2013 20:51 OrchidThief wrote: What the hell is a revolutionist?
as far as i know bisu did revolutionize something in a matchup in BW. thats why he's called a revolutionist
EDIT: was it corsair/reaver in PvZ?
FFE -> Corsair DT. Basically, just making FFE a standard in PvZ, since it already existed before the revolution, just not as popular and effective as it is even until now.
wow didn't know that he had that much of an impact in the PvZ matchup, thanks for pointing that out!
On April 29 2013 21:18 Seiniyta wrote: Shouldn't one of the players slowly try to transistion into voidrays? :p
Yeah, for some reason players refuse to play stargate in lategame PvP. I don't know if they feel that it opens a timing for dying to double robo colossus production or something.
On April 29 2013 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote: I gotta be honest with yalls.
I was fan of WoL PvP.
Really? I mean, near the end of WoL, it was decent, but it was still pretty passive and majority of WoL, it was always the same stupid mirror. I didn't find 8+ Colossi even close to being fun.
On April 29 2013 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote: I gotta be honest with yalls.
I was fan of WoL PvP.
Really? I mean, near the end of WoL, it was decent, but it was still pretty passive and majority of WoL, it was always the same stupid mirror. I didn't find 8+ Colossi even close to being fun.
I do think it was fun at the highest level, especially if it started out with aggression. PvP was one of the harshest and most unforgiving matchups in the game. One tiny mistake no matter where you make it would cost you the game. That and it was a super positional matchup.
On April 29 2013 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote: I gotta be honest with yalls.
I was fan of WoL PvP.
Really? I mean, near the end of WoL, it was decent, but it was still pretty passive and majority of WoL, it was always the same stupid mirror. I didn't find 8+ Colossi even close to being fun.
I do think it was fun at the highest level, especially if it started out with aggression. PvP was one of the harshest and most unforgiving matchups in the game. One tiny mistake no matter where you make it would cost you the game. That and it was a super positional matchup.
Uh, I disagree, every match-up in SC2 is quite unforgiving. Baneling-Ling Aggression in ZvZ? One Baneling can change the game. PvZ, one missed Force Field can cost you the game, TvZ, one Fungal(which was instant) could cut your army in half. So, yes it was unforgiving, but one of the most? I don't feel like it was. Beside, even if it was, I just can't believe it that a lot of the time it all came to the point where who has more Colossi and who focus fire first wins.. I just hate that.
Edit: Yes, it depends on the map, I agree, but most of the maps in WoL were pretty bad for PvP. If it was shorter map, it was 4-gate/blink, if it was large map, lets camp into 8+ Colossi.
I must say that I love EVERY match-up in HOTS, because all of them supports early aggression. Even Protoss matches aren't as much about camping as they were in WoL. Early Mothership Core with Gate units aggressions and pokes, Phoenixes, Oracles.
On April 29 2013 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote: I gotta be honest with yalls.
I was fan of WoL PvP.
Really? I mean, near the end of WoL, it was decent, but it was still pretty passive and majority of WoL, it was always the same stupid mirror. I didn't find 8+ Colossi even close to being fun.
I do think it was fun at the highest level, especially if it started out with aggression. PvP was one of the harshest and most unforgiving matchups in the game. One tiny mistake no matter where you make it would cost you the game. That and it was a super positional matchup.
Uh, I disagree, every match-up in SC2 is quite unforgiving. Baneling-Ling Aggression in ZvZ? One Baneling can change the game. PvZ, one missed Force Field can cost you the game, TvZ, one Fungal(which was instant) could cut your army in half. So, yes it was unforgiving, but one of the most? I don't feel like it was. Beside, even if it was, I just can't believe it that a lot of the time it all came to the point where who has more Colossi and who focus fire first wins.. I just hate that.
Edit: Yes, it depends on the map, I agree, but most of the maps in WoL were pretty bad for PvP. If it was shorter map, it was 4-gate/blink, if it was large map, lets camp into 8+ Colossi.
I must say that I love EVERY match-up in HOTS, because all of them supports early aggression. Even Protoss matches aren't as much about camping as they were in WoL. Early Mothership Core with Gate units aggressions and pokes, Phoenixes, Oracles.
I disagree again, especially with the part about maps. Larger maps favored blink players because of the rush distance that kept you even safer while containing your opponent with blink. And a 4gate never cared about rush distance. The unforgivingness of PvP began in the early game. Got a slight build order disadvantage? A good player might outright kill you. Being out of position, taking bad fights, not scouting perfectly, not using your units/tech perfectly when your opponent does... all of these things cut you hard in PvP, sometimes to the point where you just instantly lose the game.
TvT for example, you might lose a whole bunch of tanks but with good drops etc, there's a chance to crawl back. In PvP what happens is you type out. Can't lose units that you still need or you're dead.
HotS PvP is cool too but I don't think it's figured out yet. There's still so many build order losses and people will eventually find holes to abuse which will shape the metagame.
On April 29 2013 23:55 sparklyresidue wrote: CJ Entus definitely having a hard time with the HoTS transition. On another note, go Fantasy!
Yeah, their zergs are the core of the team, and both Effort and Hydra have been sucking lately. Not sure about Effort record this round, but Hydra, also one of the top 10 players as of R3, is only like 2-5 this round.
On April 29 2013 20:51 OrchidThief wrote: What the hell is a revolutionist?
as far as i know bisu did revolutionize something in a matchup in BW. thats why he's called a revolutionist
EDIT: was it corsair/reaver in PvZ?
FFE -> Corsair DT. Basically, just making FFE a standard in PvZ, since it already existed before the revolution, just not as popular and effective as it is even until now.
wow didn't know that he had that much of an impact in the PvZ matchup, thanks for pointing that out!
The greatest bisu lesson: On esports, looking good is far more important than just winning games... :D
On April 29 2013 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote: I gotta be honest with yalls.
I was fan of WoL PvP.
Really? I mean, near the end of WoL, it was decent, but it was still pretty passive and majority of WoL, it was always the same stupid mirror. I didn't find 8+ Colossi even close to being fun.
I do think it was fun at the highest level, especially if it started out with aggression. PvP was one of the harshest and most unforgiving matchups in the game. One tiny mistake no matter where you make it would cost you the game. That and it was a super positional matchup.
I really enjoyed the games with low number of colossi. At some point there were popular attacks with immortals and warp prism designed to kill the guy who rushed support bay. They didn't last long, though.
EPT
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EffOrt <Whirlwind> 
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