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On March 06 2013 12:47 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 12:01 theMagus wrote:
^ sure. but that is definitely not equal to 3 years of experience, which was my point.
imagine this flipped table scenario for a bit. it's the kespa guys who have 3 years experience, and the newcomers with 9 months of experience are the non-kespa players. what do you think the outcome of the current gsl will be? the way that scenario plays in my mind is that non-kespa players wouldn't stand a chance, just like in broodwar. of course we will never truly know, but it's not hard to imagine it turning out that way and that says something. if the newcomers were as skilled as the esf players it would be the same as it is now. 3 years of experience doesn't matter when the metagame and balance has changed so much over those 3 years. the kespa players started playing when the game was pretty much figured out and there were only minor balance changes. they learned everything about sc2 from the esf players.
i disagree. the difference between very refined play is huge compared to just good play. it wins you games. you get this from experience through constant practice and trial and error. it takes a lot of time and dedication. about the game being fully figured out, that's just conjecture. the sad fact is that we will never know for sure because the transition to hots is coming very soon. we won't be seeing people like flash potentially truly pioneer how terran is played in wol, for example, which he did in broodwar.
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On March 06 2013 12:50 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 12:01 theMagus wrote:
^ sure. but that is definitely not equal to 3 years of experience, which was my point.
imagine this flipped table scenario for a bit. it's the kespa guys who have 3 years experience, and the newcomers with 9 months of experience are the non-kespa players. what do you think the outcome of the current gsl will be? the way that scenario plays in my mind is that non-kespa players wouldn't stand a chance, just like in broodwar. of course we will never truly know, but it's not hard to imagine it turning out that way and that says something. I would say most of the reason for that is the team environment and strict practice schedule. Also, Kespa players understand better how to evaluate and fix holes in their play. This definitely gives them an advantage, but not an insurmountable one. If the situation were reversed, and the ESF guys were just now transitioning from BW, as long as they had the desire I still think they'd put up respectable numbers because they'd be working harder in order to catch up. Experience has diminishing returns, anyway.
i agree with training regimen and better evaluation of their play, but i wouldn't count out the fact that kespa has the cream of the crop talent pool. a lot of the esf players were former broodwar players who couldn't make it in broodwar in spite of undergoing the same training regimen. i wouldn't really argue this strongly though because there are a lot of other factors involved in success in sc2.
true, experience has diminishing returns but considering that kespa has only 9 months under their belt, i would say experience is still a huge factor at this point. 9 months isn't enough to fully develop one's potential. again using flash as an example, he has just started training his harrassment style going into his code a matches as he stated in his interview. i don't think he's even near his full potential in sc2 yet.
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Northern Ireland26440 Posts
I kind of view some of the ESF folks who were formerly in Kespa houses as not necessarily being less talented than many of their Kespa counterparts.
Perhaps not every Korean actually benefits from that practice regime, and could flourish in a less regimented environment. I mean there are massive differences in practice schedules within the foreign scene, coexisting withthe idea that Koreans are all the same and all practice 10-12 hours a day, and benefit equally
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Nuuuuuuuu Hero  ((((((
Glad to see Fantasy made it though :D
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On March 06 2013 12:50 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 12:01 theMagus wrote:
^ sure. but that is definitely not equal to 3 years of experience, which was my point.
imagine this flipped table scenario for a bit. it's the kespa guys who have 3 years experience, and the newcomers with 9 months of experience are the non-kespa players. what do you think the outcome of the current gsl will be? the way that scenario plays in my mind is that non-kespa players wouldn't stand a chance, just like in broodwar. of course we will never truly know, but it's not hard to imagine it turning out that way and that says something. If the situation were reversed, and the ESF guys were just now transitioning from BW, as long as they had the desire I still think they'd put up respectable numbers because they'd be working harder in order to catch up. Experience has diminishing returns, anyway.
Are you high? Given 7 or so months only MVP and a handful of the other ex-A-teamers with the necessary mechanics would be competitive. You're severely underestimating how demanding it was to learn and play BW at the highest level. Flash and co. would run rings around the Zergbongs of ESF.
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On March 06 2013 11:31 catabowl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 05:35 papaz wrote:
elephants are coming! You can here them STOMPING! Nice fail. Switch has been a whole year now. Players should be even and the results are leaning that way.
Haha, is that the new excuse?
After a year Kespa guys are on the same level as the rest of the field that had what, 2 years+ head start?
First SC2 was going to be return of the foreign scene, which we all know how that turned out.
Then EG-TL considered being favourites in proleague. I don't know what the excuses are for their results but there are probably a number of them.
Then of course the great talent of Stephano in GSL. Well he probably wasn't lucky with the map pool or something. 
Now Kespa A-teamers are catching up and in a couple of months they will just wave goodbye to the rest of the field.
I will be back for the new excuses then
It's fine, I was also jumping the bandwagon that "this is a new game, the mechanics are easier".
I admit when I'm wrong. I greatly underestimated the skill of Kespa A-teamers. When proleague started and EG-TL got stommped (and being stomped) I realized that Kespa teams and players are going to rule the scene. I wish there was a mixed ESF-Kespa teams teamleague.
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On March 06 2013 12:25 theMagus wrote:
^ good for you. my interest here is to objectively dissect and understand this situation with the kespa players. i happen to be a fan of mvp, among other things, who is an esf player.
Yeah but you're in no point objective, because you're presupposing two entities "an esf player" and "a kespa player", which make no sense when looking at actual results. Sola is no Effort, and Virus is no Mvp. Just the same as Avenge is no Rain and Trust is no Squirtle.
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On March 06 2013 22:18 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 12:25 theMagus wrote:
^ good for you. my interest here is to objectively dissect and understand this situation with the kespa players. i happen to be a fan of mvp, among other things, who is an esf player. Yeah but you're in no point objective, because you're presupposing two entities "an esf player" and "a kespa player", which make no sense when looking at actual results. Sola is no Effort, and Virus is no Mvp. Just the same as Avenge is no Rain and Trust is no Squirtle.
false. kespa and esf are two different entities with different training philosophies and regimens. it's quite natural to compare them actually based on the results of their players playing the same game. what i am obviously after is analyzing and understanding what is/are really behind kespa's success as a whole in sc2 in light of their still limited experience (in terms of time spent playing the game vs esf) in sc2, not results of individual players.
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Yeah but no, like I said the results prove you wrong, given that provided the same limited experience a player can be as successful as RorO or as unsuccessful as those B-teamers we don't even know the nick of. A player's result depend too much on his personal skill, multitasking, resistance to nerves, and commitment, to analyze this in an environmental-only fashion like you're trying to. Obviously it's a factor. But it's not the only one, and honestly I doubt it's even the most important one.
Also, I'd like to add that besides thinking that you're wrong, I still don't see why we should care even if you were right.
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^ who said i'm taking training environment as the only factor in their success? a lot of factors determine success in sc2, like i said in my reply to a different poster above. read it before you put words in my mouth. if you don't get what i'm trying to do, then i don't know what to say to you. i will just say that it involves basic principles of regression analysis. make of that what you will.
and what? i'm not asking you to care lol. i'm simply expressing my own thoughts in a discussion forum, and my ideas are open to objective discussion. if you don't like what i'm discussing, then ignore it. no need to get all defensive and butthurt
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On March 06 2013 15:53 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 11:31 catabowl wrote:On March 06 2013 05:35 papaz wrote:
elephants are coming! You can here them STOMPING! Nice fail. Switch has been a whole year now. Players should be even and the results are leaning that way. Haha, is that the new excuse? After a year Kespa guys are on the same level as the rest of the field that had what, 2 years+ head start? First SC2 was going to be return of the foreign scene, which we all know how that turned out.Then EG-TL considered being favourites in proleague. I don't know what the excuses are for their results but there are probably a number of them. Then of course the great talent of Stephano in GSL. Well he probably wasn't lucky with the map pool or something. Now Kespa A-teamers are catching up and in a couple of months they will just wave goodbye to the rest of the field. I will be back for the new excuses then It's fine, I was also jumping the bandwagon that "this is a new game, the mechanics are easier". I admit when I'm wrong. I greatly underestimated the skill of Kespa A-teamers. When proleague started and EG-TL got stommped (and being stomped) I realized that Kespa teams and players are going to rule the scene. I wish there was a mixed ESF-Kespa teams teamleague.
oh god i remember back during wol beta there were some who said foreigners will take back the sc scene from koreans with sc2 because of the interface and focus was on strategy instead of mechanics and fighting the ai. which supposedly foreigners excelled rigid robot like koreans.
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On March 07 2013 02:26 theMagus wrote:
^ who said i'm taking training environment as the only factor in their success?
You did, right there:
On March 06 2013 23:49 theMagus wrote:
false. kespa and esf are two different entities with different training philosophies and regimens. it's quite natural to compare them actually based on the results of their players playing the same game.
Well if "only" is the key word you didn't say it was the only one, that's true, but the rest of the factors aren't kespa or esf dependant so the only real reason to view them as two separate / opposite entities is their training regimens.
On March 07 2013 02:26 theMagus wrote:no need to get all defensive and butthurt
I feel sorry that an attempt to end a pointless war is considered defensive and butthurt. I've had my *** in pain for way less noble causes and still felt good about it.
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^ i'm just gonna back away from this line of argument. there are things here that are self-evident to me (and others) but not to you (and others), and i'd rather not discuss it lengthily in this thread that is living way past its relevance. we will not meet eye to eye in this matter, so let's just agree to disagree.
and i don't see this thing between kespa and esf as a war but a simple rivalry that keeps things interesting and entertaining
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EPT
