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The usual: No balance whine, player bashing, caster bashing or needless Kespa vs Esf debate. -tkwl |
Austria24422 Posts
On February 23 2013 06:09 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 06:05 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 23 2013 05:33 opterown wrote:On February 23 2013 05:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Well in terms of protoss that win things... MC, Parting, HerO obviously won the most + were the most "always around"-ish protosses? Except for MC's slump I guess. Creator, Seed, Rain, Squirtle, Genius obviously did well too and some won things too but not as stretched out I'd say. i disagree on hero "obviously winning the most" since two dreamhacks and an NASL i would rate lower than squirtle's 2nd places, seed's GSL, rain's OSL/WCS asia and probably even with creator's #2BWC/WCSKR/TSL4. and really, parting "winning the most" is a bit inflated too since he won BWC and WCG, beating one korean along the way haha Well I was was purely talking numbers. Rain's OSL wasn't all that impressive to me, he had godlike PvP and beat Parting, then Last who basically did the same build 3 games in a row, then Rain figured it out and reverse swept him, and a slumping DRG. His WCS Asia was built almost purely on his godlike PvP. Squirtle's GSL and IPL second place I don't rank as high as winning 2 Dreamhacks and an NASL. Squirtle beat HerO to get to the GSL finals so it's not like HerO couldn't have won it, especially considering he was the only player to beat Mvp that season. Creator's WCS KR is the most impressive out of his accomplishments imo. BWC was almost easier, lol. TSL4 I don't think is to rank as high as a live event like DH or NASL, especially not this NASL HerO won. The competition he faced there & all season long to qualify was waaay harder. Seed's GSL while super impressive was kinda awarded to him by Byun, lol. And it was a one time thing so far so I wouldn't rank it as high as HerO's 2DH and NASL either. It's bigger than each individually but not all of them. well if you put it that way, both of hero's dreamhacks are him beating up foreigners and meeting a korean terran in the finals~ his nasl run was really solid though, i agree there. i'll disagree though; TSL4 was harder than NASL in terms of the online part
True that. As I said, I was just purely talking numbers and he won 3 major events and I think he's top 3 in earnings too. Maybe 2nd, not sure. He's always battling that out with Parting.
But yeah there's really no protoss you can point at and say "this guy never fell off the radar" in terms of results. Even MC did for some time after he lost to Seed.
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Well....
Time for Taeja to get his Code S title!!
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After watching the rebroadcast, I reiterate - Damn you Fionn. Damn you. Your curse is stronger than Artosis.
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On February 23 2013 05:15 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +You can't mention the best Teamleague terrans and not mention MMA. This guy was the ace for the Slayers team that won 2 GSTL titles. MMA began as a teamleague monster. began as one, but didn't end as one, not winning a game in GSTL for a loong time
That doesn't matter at all. Since when are achievements that aren't last month worthless? Nestea hasn't won a GSL since 2011, does that mean we don't include him as one of the greatest Zergs?
Boxer hasn't won an OSL in over 10 years, so we don't count him as a bonjwa either?
MMA was a 2x GSTL Gold Card MVP, and twice he won the deciding Game 9 in the GSTL finals. Achievements don't become invalid the moment you stop winning.
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On February 23 2013 08:43 Bagration wrote:
That doesn't matter at all. Since when are achievements that aren't last month worthless? Nestea hasn't won a GSL since 2011, does that mean we don't include him as one of the greatest Zergs?
Boxer hasn't won an OSL in over 10 years, so we don't count him as a bonjwa either?
MMA was a 2x GSTL Gold Card MVP, and twice he won the deciding Game 9 in the GSTL finals. Achievements don't become invalid the moment you stop winning.
The more recent the accomplishment the more valid it is. Especially in SC when the game changes so much. Think of how it was played in the open seasons compared to now. There is no question that the competition has increased drastically and the skill needed for the game has increased also. You mentioned Boxer but the go to best player ever is Flash in large part because he was dominant at the end of BW. Nestea is one of the great zergs but the player that will go done as the best WoL zerg will be Life because he dominated at the end when the skill increased.
(side note best Team League player goes to Taeja no question. He has by far the weakest team of any of the players in discussion and carried them SOOOOOOOOO hard.)
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Happy for Taeja, sad for MC...
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On February 23 2013 08:48 bourne117 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 08:43 Bagration wrote:
That doesn't matter at all. Since when are achievements that aren't last month worthless? Nestea hasn't won a GSL since 2011, does that mean we don't include him as one of the greatest Zergs?
Boxer hasn't won an OSL in over 10 years, so we don't count him as a bonjwa either?
MMA was a 2x GSTL Gold Card MVP, and twice he won the deciding Game 9 in the GSTL finals. Achievements don't become invalid the moment you stop winning. The more recent the accomplishment the more valid it is. Especially in SC when the game changes so much. Think of how it was played in the open seasons compared to now. There is no question that the competition has increased drastically and the skill needed for the game has increased also. You mentioned Boxer but the go to best player ever is Flash in large part because he was dominant at the end of BW. Nestea is one of the great zergs but the player that will go done as the best WoL zerg will be Life because he dominated at the end when the skill increased. (side note best Team League player goes to Taeja no question. He has by far the weakest team of any of the players in discussion and carried them SOOOOOOOOO hard.)
Life might be the better Zerg now, but no way has he eclipsed Nestea in greatness. Of course current is best right now, but we judge players relatively to their era/peers.
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On February 23 2013 08:48 bourne117 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 08:43 Bagration wrote:
That doesn't matter at all. Since when are achievements that aren't last month worthless? Nestea hasn't won a GSL since 2011, does that mean we don't include him as one of the greatest Zergs?
Boxer hasn't won an OSL in over 10 years, so we don't count him as a bonjwa either?
MMA was a 2x GSTL Gold Card MVP, and twice he won the deciding Game 9 in the GSTL finals. Achievements don't become invalid the moment you stop winning. The more recent the accomplishment the more valid it is. Especially in SC when the game changes so much. Think of how it was played in the open seasons compared to now. There is no question that the competition has increased drastically and the skill needed for the game has increased also. You mentioned Boxer but the go to best player ever is Flash in large part because he was dominant at the end of BW. Nestea is one of the great zergs but the player that will go done as the best WoL zerg will be Life because he dominated at the end when the skill increased. (side note best Team League player goes to Taeja no question. He has by far the weakest team of any of the players in discussion and carried them SOOOOOOOOO hard.)
We aren't talking about Power Rankings, we are talking about career accomplishments, where a GSL title is a GSL title and that's that. There is no way a player like Sniper can be considered more accomplished than Nestea.
You can't just throw away all the results from 2010, 2011 and 2012, just because they weren't recent enough. Furthermore, it wasn't like the players of 2011 were just slacking around and playing like shit. They were playing the best that they could, on the maps and patches of the time. Nestea would not have been able to go fast gasless 3 hatch back in Open Season 2, but he can nowadays because the maps and patch have changed. But that does not invalidate his first GSL title.
The metagame of TvT and TvZ are different now than from spring of 2011, when MMA led Slayers to become 2x GSTL champs. But that does not invalidate his wins either.
Finally, Taeja is an amazing Teamleague player (for both Slayers and TL), and probably #1 in team contribution for an individual. Just look at Liquid in the IPL TAC when he was in form, and Liquid's performance in IPTL when he's slumping. Could you imagine how good Liquid could have been if the rest of the team could have supported him during the summer? The rest of the team did almost nothing in terms of support :p
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On February 23 2013 09:02 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 08:48 bourne117 wrote:On February 23 2013 08:43 Bagration wrote:
That doesn't matter at all. Since when are achievements that aren't last month worthless? Nestea hasn't won a GSL since 2011, does that mean we don't include him as one of the greatest Zergs?
Boxer hasn't won an OSL in over 10 years, so we don't count him as a bonjwa either?
MMA was a 2x GSTL Gold Card MVP, and twice he won the deciding Game 9 in the GSTL finals. Achievements don't become invalid the moment you stop winning. The more recent the accomplishment the more valid it is. Especially in SC when the game changes so much. Think of how it was played in the open seasons compared to now. There is no question that the competition has increased drastically and the skill needed for the game has increased also. You mentioned Boxer but the go to best player ever is Flash in large part because he was dominant at the end of BW. Nestea is one of the great zergs but the player that will go done as the best WoL zerg will be Life because he dominated at the end when the skill increased. (side note best Team League player goes to Taeja no question. He has by far the weakest team of any of the players in discussion and carried them SOOOOOOOOO hard.) We aren't talking about Power Rankings, we are talking about career accomplishments, where a GSL title is a GSL title and that's that. There is no way a player like Sniper can be considered more accomplished than Nestea. You can't just throw away all the results from 2010, 2011 and 2012, just because they weren't recent enough. Furthermore, it wasn't like the players of 2011 were just slacking around and playing like shit. They were playing the best that they could, on the maps and patches of the time. Nestea would not have been able to go fast gasless 3 hatch back in Open Season 2, but he can nowadays because the maps and patch have changed. But that does not invalidate his first GSL title. The metagame of TvT and TvZ are different now than from spring of 2011, when MMA led Slayers to become 2x GSTL champs. But that does not invalidate his wins either. Finally, Taeja is an amazing Teamleague player (for both Slayers and TL), and probably #1 in team contribution for an individual. Just look at Liquid in the IPL TAC when he was in form, and Liquid's performance in IPTL when he's slumping. Could you imagine how good Liquid could have been if the rest of the team could have supported him during the summer? The rest of the team did almost nothing in terms of support :p
I can totally understand where your coming from but for me personally as the game becomes more figured out the accomplishments of the players increases as well. The more recent seasons have been stacked with way harder competition than the ones in 2010 or 2011. The same is true of foreign events. Look at for example Iron Squid 2. The talent in that tournament would rival (imo) some of the earlier GSLs. Maybe not of that time but overall the level of play was better and more impressive. Thus being successful in those tournaments is more impressive to me and says more about a players skill. The fact that the older players (MVP excluded because of injury) for the most part have not been able to really compete for titles with some of the newer players proves my point. They were the best at a time when the skill level was lower for the game. As the talent increased they started to slowly fall behind. Again this is just my opinion and I can completely understand the other way. A title is a title and always will be.
And yeah Taejas run in IPL TAC was the most dominant performance in a team league to date. He went 23-3 against almost exclusively GSTL teams. That is so utterly insane. If only Hero was playing like it was Winter while he played like it was Summer.
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On February 23 2013 08:48 bourne117 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 08:43 Bagration wrote:
That doesn't matter at all. Since when are achievements that aren't last month worthless? Nestea hasn't won a GSL since 2011, does that mean we don't include him as one of the greatest Zergs?
Boxer hasn't won an OSL in over 10 years, so we don't count him as a bonjwa either?
MMA was a 2x GSTL Gold Card MVP, and twice he won the deciding Game 9 in the GSTL finals. Achievements don't become invalid the moment you stop winning. The more recent the accomplishment the more valid it is. Especially in SC when the game changes so much. Think of how it was played in the open seasons compared to now. There is no question that the competition has increased drastically and the skill needed for the game has increased also. You mentioned Boxer but the go to best player ever is Flash in large part because he was dominant at the end of BW. Nestea is one of the great zergs but the player that will go done as the best WoL zerg will be Life because he dominated at the end when the skill increased. (side note best Team League player goes to Taeja no question. He has by far the weakest team of any of the players in discussion and carried them SOOOOOOOOO hard.)
you could also say that nestea had a way harder time vs terran in the early days when we still had blueflame, shorter baracks build times, more siege damage and no queen/ovi buffs, etc etc
life had a few good results without a doubt but nestea is overall just 2 tiers above him.
moreover is life nowhere near "dominant" apart from a foreign tournament and a few very close gsl series
the only person that was really dominating at times was Mvp (gsl jan 2011 e.g)
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On February 23 2013 09:49 bourne117 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 09:02 Bagration wrote:On February 23 2013 08:48 bourne117 wrote:On February 23 2013 08:43 Bagration wrote:
That doesn't matter at all. Since when are achievements that aren't last month worthless? Nestea hasn't won a GSL since 2011, does that mean we don't include him as one of the greatest Zergs?
Boxer hasn't won an OSL in over 10 years, so we don't count him as a bonjwa either?
MMA was a 2x GSTL Gold Card MVP, and twice he won the deciding Game 9 in the GSTL finals. Achievements don't become invalid the moment you stop winning. The more recent the accomplishment the more valid it is. Especially in SC when the game changes so much. Think of how it was played in the open seasons compared to now. There is no question that the competition has increased drastically and the skill needed for the game has increased also. You mentioned Boxer but the go to best player ever is Flash in large part because he was dominant at the end of BW. Nestea is one of the great zergs but the player that will go done as the best WoL zerg will be Life because he dominated at the end when the skill increased. (side note best Team League player goes to Taeja no question. He has by far the weakest team of any of the players in discussion and carried them SOOOOOOOOO hard.) We aren't talking about Power Rankings, we are talking about career accomplishments, where a GSL title is a GSL title and that's that. There is no way a player like Sniper can be considered more accomplished than Nestea. You can't just throw away all the results from 2010, 2011 and 2012, just because they weren't recent enough. Furthermore, it wasn't like the players of 2011 were just slacking around and playing like shit. They were playing the best that they could, on the maps and patches of the time. Nestea would not have been able to go fast gasless 3 hatch back in Open Season 2, but he can nowadays because the maps and patch have changed. But that does not invalidate his first GSL title. The metagame of TvT and TvZ are different now than from spring of 2011, when MMA led Slayers to become 2x GSTL champs. But that does not invalidate his wins either. Finally, Taeja is an amazing Teamleague player (for both Slayers and TL), and probably #1 in team contribution for an individual. Just look at Liquid in the IPL TAC when he was in form, and Liquid's performance in IPTL when he's slumping. Could you imagine how good Liquid could have been if the rest of the team could have supported him during the summer? The rest of the team did almost nothing in terms of support :p I can totally understand where your coming from but for me personally as the game becomes more figured out the accomplishments of the players increases as well. The more recent seasons have been stacked with way harder competition than the ones in 2010 or 2011. The same is true of foreign events. Look at for example Iron Squid 2. The talent in that tournament would rival (imo) some of the earlier GSLs. Maybe not of that time but overall the level of play was better and more impressive. Thus being successful in those tournaments is more impressive to me and says more about a players skill. The fact that the older players (MVP excluded because of injury) for the most part have not been able to really compete for titles with some of the newer players proves my point. They were the best at a time when the skill level was lower for the game. As the talent increased they started to slowly fall behind. Again this is just my opinion and I can completely understand the other way. A title is a title and always will be. And yeah Taejas run in IPL TAC was the most dominant performance in a team league to date. He went 23-3 against almost exclusively GSTL teams. That is so utterly insane. If only Hero was playing like it was Winter while he played like it was Summer.
It's your own opinion, but most people never look at it this way. This has been discussed many times, same thing with how even tons of players now were much greater than their older generation in Broodwar. Of course current players are better, skill/training tends to improve with time. That's why everyone in any competition (look at sports for example) compare players with respective to their peers/era.
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On February 23 2013 10:59 Kitaen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 08:48 bourne117 wrote:On February 23 2013 08:43 Bagration wrote:
That doesn't matter at all. Since when are achievements that aren't last month worthless? Nestea hasn't won a GSL since 2011, does that mean we don't include him as one of the greatest Zergs?
Boxer hasn't won an OSL in over 10 years, so we don't count him as a bonjwa either?
MMA was a 2x GSTL Gold Card MVP, and twice he won the deciding Game 9 in the GSTL finals. Achievements don't become invalid the moment you stop winning. The more recent the accomplishment the more valid it is. Especially in SC when the game changes so much. Think of how it was played in the open seasons compared to now. There is no question that the competition has increased drastically and the skill needed for the game has increased also. You mentioned Boxer but the go to best player ever is Flash in large part because he was dominant at the end of BW. Nestea is one of the great zergs but the player that will go done as the best WoL zerg will be Life because he dominated at the end when the skill increased. (side note best Team League player goes to Taeja no question. He has by far the weakest team of any of the players in discussion and carried them SOOOOOOOOO hard.) you could also say that nestea had a way harder time vs terran in the early days when we still had blueflame, shorter baracks build times, more siege damage and no queen/ovi buffs, etc etc life had a few good results without a doubt but nestea is overall just 2 tiers above him. moreover is life nowhere near "dominant" apart from a foreign tournament and a few very close gsl series the only person that was really dominating at times was Mvp (gsl jan 2011 e.g)
Exactly. You have to consider competition relative to the time as well. I mean now that Zerg has come back to feeling like it was at the start of WoL in HotS with being totally lost and getting slaughtered by the other two races, you really have to have a deeper appreciation for Nestea's early dominance. Not to mention those god awful maps he had to deal with.
In terms of peak performances, yeah Life definitely wins. Arguably he's more innovative too with his extremely unorthodox brand of zerg that many other top zergs had trouble replicating. But Life loses to not only Nestea, but DRG as well in terms of career accomplishments and most of all consistency/longevity of relevance. Nestea was winning his 3rd while Life was struggling to be known in Korean weeklies yet despite this now being the era of Life, Nestea has still remained an everlasting presence getting a recent 3rd at Iron Squid and making code S.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On February 23 2013 09:49 bourne117 wrote:
And yeah Taejas run in IPL TAC was the most dominant performance in a team league to date. He went 23-3 against almost exclusively GSTL teams. That is so utterly insane. If only Hero was playing like it was Winter while he played like it was Summer.
MKP went 10-1 against exclusively GSTL teams in the season prime won
On February 23 2013 08:43 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 05:15 opterown wrote:You can't mention the best Teamleague terrans and not mention MMA. This guy was the ace for the Slayers team that won 2 GSTL titles. MMA began as a teamleague monster. began as one, but didn't end as one, not winning a game in GSTL for a loong time That doesn't matter at all. Since when are achievements that aren't last month worthless? Nestea hasn't won a GSL since 2011, does that mean we don't include him as one of the greatest Zergs? Boxer hasn't won an OSL in over 10 years, so we don't count him as a bonjwa either? MMA was a 2x GSTL Gold Card MVP, and twice he won the deciding Game 9 in the GSTL finals. Achievements don't become invalid the moment you stop winning.
remember though that those GSTL seasons were one-week affairs, more akin to a weekend tournament than a proper GSTL season. it's not like he all-killed as last player standing or something
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
"BEST PLAYERS" is different from "GREATEST PLAYERS". Come on dudes we've discussed all this before.
BEST = skill and ability. Of course this grows with time and more recent players will obviously be better than older players.
GREATEST = accomplishments, influence, and historical importance. Time does not affect these things.
As much as I dislike Life, he is probably the best in terms of skill even during this time of Zerg dominance. But to say he is greater than Nestea who won GSLs when Zerg was shit, using unparalleled game sense to make up for his poor mechanics and sleepiness, is just silly.
That's like saying Shaq is greater than Bill Russel, or that Rooney is greater than Gerd Muller.
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United States97276 Posts
On February 23 2013 11:59 lichter wrote:
"BEST PLAYERS" is different from "GREATEST PLAYERS". Come on dudes we've discussed all this before.
BEST = skill and ability. Of course this grows with time and more recent players will obviously be better than older players.
GREATEST = accomplishments, influence, and historical importance. Time does not affect these things.
As much as I dislike Life, he is probably the best in terms of skill even during this time of Zerg dominance. But to say he is greater than Nestea who won GSLs when Zerg was shit, using unparalleled game sense to make up for his poor mechanics and sleepiness, is just silly.
That's like saying Shaq is greater than Bill Russel, or that Rooney is greater than Gerd Muller.
Should we bring back the Mount Rushmore of WoL thread?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=385896
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On February 23 2013 12:01 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 11:59 lichter wrote:
"BEST PLAYERS" is different from "GREATEST PLAYERS". Come on dudes we've discussed all this before.
BEST = skill and ability. Of course this grows with time and more recent players will obviously be better than older players.
GREATEST = accomplishments, influence, and historical importance. Time does not affect these things.
As much as I dislike Life, he is probably the best in terms of skill even during this time of Zerg dominance. But to say he is greater than Nestea who won GSLs when Zerg was shit, using unparalleled game sense to make up for his poor mechanics and sleepiness, is just silly.
That's like saying Shaq is greater than Bill Russel, or that Rooney is greater than Gerd Muller. Should we bring back the Mount Rushmore of WoL thread? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=385896
Probably after this GSL we should bring it back and reassess everything. However no matter who wins this season it's already probably set anyway.
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Ugh it's gonna be a zvz finals. There's no way taeja will advance given his wrists. What a horrible end to wol
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On February 23 2013 12:06 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 12:01 Shellshock1122 wrote:On February 23 2013 11:59 lichter wrote:
"BEST PLAYERS" is different from "GREATEST PLAYERS". Come on dudes we've discussed all this before.
BEST = skill and ability. Of course this grows with time and more recent players will obviously be better than older players.
GREATEST = accomplishments, influence, and historical importance. Time does not affect these things.
As much as I dislike Life, he is probably the best in terms of skill even during this time of Zerg dominance. But to say he is greater than Nestea who won GSLs when Zerg was shit, using unparalleled game sense to make up for his poor mechanics and sleepiness, is just silly.
That's like saying Shaq is greater than Bill Russel, or that Rooney is greater than Gerd Muller. Should we bring back the Mount Rushmore of WoL thread? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=385896 Probably after this GSL we should bring it back and reassess everything. However no matter who wins this season it's already probably set anyway.
Yeah best of each race is pretty much set for me no matter who wins this gsl. IPL6 I think is the last major WoL tournament so that could change a few things. DRG and Nestea are pretty neck and neck as far as I'm concerned for best WoL Zerg with Nestea a little bit ahead, so that could be the tipping point for DRG if he wins that.
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On February 23 2013 11:59 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 09:49 bourne117 wrote:
And yeah Taejas run in IPL TAC was the most dominant performance in a team league to date. He went 23-3 against almost exclusively GSTL teams. That is so utterly insane. If only Hero was playing like it was Winter while he played like it was Summer. MKP went 10-1 against exclusively GSTL teams in the season prime won Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 08:43 Bagration wrote:On February 23 2013 05:15 opterown wrote:You can't mention the best Teamleague terrans and not mention MMA. This guy was the ace for the Slayers team that won 2 GSTL titles. MMA began as a teamleague monster. began as one, but didn't end as one, not winning a game in GSTL for a loong time That doesn't matter at all. Since when are achievements that aren't last month worthless? Nestea hasn't won a GSL since 2011, does that mean we don't include him as one of the greatest Zergs? Boxer hasn't won an OSL in over 10 years, so we don't count him as a bonjwa either? MMA was a 2x GSTL Gold Card MVP, and twice he won the deciding Game 9 in the GSTL finals. Achievements don't become invalid the moment you stop winning. remember though that those GSTL seasons were one-week affairs, more akin to a weekend tournament than a proper GSTL season. it's not like he all-killed as last player standing or something
I don't care how long ago they were or how many all-kills he got, or how long since he's been relevant. MMA had some of the most clutch team league performances I can remember seeing as the ace for slayers, saving them numerous times and clinching deciding games etc leading them to two titles. Definitely a team league legend.
And I'm not an mma or slayers fan
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I'd have to put DRG ahead of Nestea, Nestea might have an extra two GSL, but DRG has been easily better for such a long time now and has a string of high placed finishes in other major tourneys. Life is better than both but obviously doesn't have the resume of the other two.
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EPT
