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United States622 Posts
On January 23 2013 02:00 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 01:37 sitromit wrote:On January 23 2013 01:32 vthree wrote:On January 23 2013 01:08 sitromit wrote:On January 23 2013 00:52 vthree wrote:On January 23 2013 00:03 sitromit wrote:On January 22 2013 23:50 Mandalor wrote:On January 22 2013 23:39 sitromit wrote:On January 22 2013 23:29 vthree wrote:On January 22 2013 23:16 sitromit wrote:
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Actually, it's Protoss who complain about hard to take 3rds. Go read any thread discussing maps, half the posts are "how is Protoss supposed to take a 3rd, it's too hard for Protoss to take a 3rd". It's for that reason Protoss complained about Antiga, Abyssal City and Belshir Vestige. Now GSL added rocks to the new version of Belshir to tighten chokes to make the 3rds easier for Protoss to defend using minimal units and Forcefields.
No. I mean REALLY hard to take 3rds. These thirds you mentioned a hard to take because of multiple attack path and ramp widths. Which doesn't affect zergs. What I mean by hard to take for zergs is thirds that are in the middle of the map or really far from Mai and natural. Ones that you cannot get creep to. OK, so what are you saying then? You say FFE is countered by quick 3rd by Zerg. Creator faked a 3rd, Symbol countered by taking a 4th. But then Creator all-ined, but he still had 2 base tech and economy behind the all-in, and it was delayed enough, that Symbol had better tech. Zerg can't pre-emptively build too many units. Waiting until the last moment to start building units to hold all-ins is how it works. Here Symbol overdroned, because he saw Creator taking a 3rd, and almost died because of it, but was barely able to hold, thanks to his tech advantage. It wasn't an easy hold, but he pulled it off. Have we never seen a Protoss hold a hatch-cancel Roach all in against FFE? I've seen it happen many times, it's what makes this game exciting. Yeah but that's the entire point. Symbol read Creator's play wrong and went for a 4th. So, despite being extremely greedy and going to 4 bases, with a ton of drones AND teching hard, he was able to beat Creator's 2 base allin. That shouldn't happen in any game, ever - unless the P fucks up badly in terms of micro (which I didn't see happening). And you just cannot compare a roach allin vs ffe with this. P is designed to have a very good defensive early game. And your example is especially bad because in this scenario, the ffe will not have paid for itself or just barely so that it's essentially 1 base vs 1 base economy. He did not play extremely greedy. He played standard. He got all-ined, very very narrowly held. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. All-ins should have an element of risk, they shouldn't be auto-wins. Symbol managed the situation perfectly, responded perfectly, did everything right. Creator could have done some things differently. He didn't target fire the Infestors. He didn't go up the ramp and kill stuff in the main. He got all his Sentries fungaled on the ramp and lost them, among other things. There are units in this game, that change the game when they come out, and make some all-ins much riskier and even impossible. When Protoss gets High Templars with Storm, Terran's chances of doing some kind of Bio push into a defensive Protoss diminishes severely, to the point of becoming completely unviable. When Terran gets out a couple of Tanks with siege mode, Baneling busts become a losing proposition, no matter how many more units Zerg has, compared to the Terran. Symbol had the tech out in time, Creator failed with his all in, tough luck. Maybe he should have tried playing a standard game. You keep saying the build was not extremely greedy. It was one of the most optimal Econ/tech builds for zergs. Quick 4th, mass drones, tech all at the same time. Yes, it was obvious that the all-in failed because the infestors are out. I think it is ok that the infestors can defend that all in. But the issue is more that the Zerg can go to 85 drones AND get infestors out in time that is the problem. If Symbol was on 70-75 drones and defended, it is fine. If I use your banelings bust example. It would be like if terrans can go quick 3 CC, make some early hellions and then still have tanks in time to defend roach/bane busts. It makes 3CC too safe. There is no issue here. Getting more Drones is not a detriment to getting tech, more workers means more income means faster tech, that's how this game works, for all races. I watched the game again, and to be honest, if Symbol hadn't been so "greedy", and started building units sooner, he would have probably died to that all in. He barely got Infestors out, if he had built units earlier, he wouldn't have been able to. Without Infestors, even with twice the army supply, he would have died to the Immoral/Sentry/Blink Stalker composition. And it's not like he didn't have any army, yes he had 85 Drones, but he also was 40 supply ahead of Creator, so he still had more army supply, just lower quality until his Infestors came out. Your second sentence only applies once the workers are gathering and have 'paid' for themselves. And in Symbol's case, many of his drones weren't at that point yet. Otherwise, you could also say droning up and expanding is not detriment to your army either since you get more resources and production. So no, this isn't how the game works. At least not the way you describe without qualifying it. Symbol was on fully mining 3 bases for a very long time, while Creator was on 2. Creator missed his timing, he did an Immortal Sentry all in that hit way too late, had +2 and Blink Stalkers to compensate, but didn't have a Warp Prism. In return, Symbol had even more units than a Zerg typically does when Immortal Sentry hits at its normal timing, had Infestors coming out, had 1/1 finished and had Spine Crawlers in his natural. FFS give the guy some credit. He'll get credit depending on how many zergs and/or protoss make it to the Ro16. I get the feeling if there weren't just 5 protoss there would be a lot less whining. But hey, maybe the remaining 4 will make it through and we can stop whining or not.
This is exactly why every race should care about imbalance. Players that I liked got zero credit during the last few months (and potentially the months to come as well) because they were zerg. Making it to round of 4 in a high profile tournament wasn't impressive if you played zerg, because everyone assumed that it was just the race you played that let you do so well. In many cases, it was. But hopefully if the game becomes more balanced with the patch, good zerg players will start getting credit for playing well again.
I think DRG alluded to this with the queen patch. He said he hated that patch because now any zerg (not just him and nestea) could defend any early aggression. Now no one is impressed with holding a strong all-in from terran.
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OMG when i heard that song i was like HOLY SHIT
so this is fan made, watching right now!
Wow whoever made this, great job! Not as awesome as the original of course, but this was still cool.
I love how you chose MC Nestea MVP and had the rest of their race around them just like the original.
The background art and sound clips fit very well too! Nice selection of units for the background of their respective players!
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On January 23 2013 02:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
OMG when i heard that song i was like HOLY SHIT
so this is fan made, watching right now!
Wow whoever made this, great job! Not as awesome as the original of course, but this was still cool.
I love how you chose MC Nestea MVP and had the rest of their race around them just like the original.
The background art and sound clips fit very well too! Nice selection of units for the background of their respective players!
Yeah it is really great work for being fan made. Top. I really like it! Like the original best OSL intro EVER. 
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So, where can I find the VODs on Twitch?
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On January 23 2013 02:54 Destroyr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
OMG when i heard that song i was like HOLY SHIT
so this is fan made, watching right now!
Wow whoever made this, great job! Not as awesome as the original of course, but this was still cool.
I love how you chose MC Nestea MVP and had the rest of their race around them just like the original.
The background art and sound clips fit very well too! Nice selection of units for the background of their respective players! Yeah it is really great work for being fan made. Top. I really like it! Like the original best OSL intro EVER.
haha indeed
and i c wut u did thar!
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Well, i think it was pretty clear that Life would advance, but I really thought Byul would too. Oh well, congrats to Life and Symbol!
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On January 23 2013 02:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
OMG when i heard that song i was like HOLY SHIT
so this is fan made, watching right now!
Wow whoever made this, great job! Not as awesome as the original of course, but this was still cool.
I love how you chose MC Nestea MVP and had the rest of their race around them just like the original.
The background art and sound clips fit very well too! Nice selection of units for the background of their respective players! Hey thanks for pointing that song out, I would have completely missed it. Really cool. Gotta love the trio MC-Nestea-MVP. Still doing pretty well.
In other good news, GOM is working on the issues, and say we should check tomorrow before the GSL Live for updates about the whole Twitch drama. Hopefully those with paid GOM tickets will get full discount coupons for the Twitch registration.
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They need to use that intro for GSL haha. Homage to 2007.
Sad Creator didn't make it out, but Life and Symbol are BEASTS.
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On January 23 2013 02:06 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:00 wklbishop wrote:On January 23 2013 01:37 sitromit wrote:On January 23 2013 01:32 vthree wrote:On January 23 2013 01:08 sitromit wrote:On January 23 2013 00:52 vthree wrote:On January 23 2013 00:03 sitromit wrote:On January 22 2013 23:50 Mandalor wrote:On January 22 2013 23:39 sitromit wrote:On January 22 2013 23:29 vthree wrote:
[quote]
No. I mean REALLY hard to take 3rds. These thirds you mentioned a hard to take because of multiple attack path and ramp widths. Which doesn't affect zergs. What I mean by hard to take for zergs is thirds that are in the middle of the map or really far from Mai and natural. Ones that you cannot get creep to. OK, so what are you saying then? You say FFE is countered by quick 3rd by Zerg. Creator faked a 3rd, Symbol countered by taking a 4th. But then Creator all-ined, but he still had 2 base tech and economy behind the all-in, and it was delayed enough, that Symbol had better tech. Zerg can't pre-emptively build too many units. Waiting until the last moment to start building units to hold all-ins is how it works. Here Symbol overdroned, because he saw Creator taking a 3rd, and almost died because of it, but was barely able to hold, thanks to his tech advantage. It wasn't an easy hold, but he pulled it off. Have we never seen a Protoss hold a hatch-cancel Roach all in against FFE? I've seen it happen many times, it's what makes this game exciting. Yeah but that's the entire point. Symbol read Creator's play wrong and went for a 4th. So, despite being extremely greedy and going to 4 bases, with a ton of drones AND teching hard, he was able to beat Creator's 2 base allin. That shouldn't happen in any game, ever - unless the P fucks up badly in terms of micro (which I didn't see happening). And you just cannot compare a roach allin vs ffe with this. P is designed to have a very good defensive early game. And your example is especially bad because in this scenario, the ffe will not have paid for itself or just barely so that it's essentially 1 base vs 1 base economy. He did not play extremely greedy. He played standard. He got all-ined, very very narrowly held. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. All-ins should have an element of risk, they shouldn't be auto-wins. Symbol managed the situation perfectly, responded perfectly, did everything right. Creator could have done some things differently. He didn't target fire the Infestors. He didn't go up the ramp and kill stuff in the main. He got all his Sentries fungaled on the ramp and lost them, among other things. There are units in this game, that change the game when they come out, and make some all-ins much riskier and even impossible. When Protoss gets High Templars with Storm, Terran's chances of doing some kind of Bio push into a defensive Protoss diminishes severely, to the point of becoming completely unviable. When Terran gets out a couple of Tanks with siege mode, Baneling busts become a losing proposition, no matter how many more units Zerg has, compared to the Terran. Symbol had the tech out in time, Creator failed with his all in, tough luck. Maybe he should have tried playing a standard game. You keep saying the build was not extremely greedy. It was one of the most optimal Econ/tech builds for zergs. Quick 4th, mass drones, tech all at the same time. Yes, it was obvious that the all-in failed because the infestors are out. I think it is ok that the infestors can defend that all in. But the issue is more that the Zerg can go to 85 drones AND get infestors out in time that is the problem. If Symbol was on 70-75 drones and defended, it is fine. If I use your banelings bust example. It would be like if terrans can go quick 3 CC, make some early hellions and then still have tanks in time to defend roach/bane busts. It makes 3CC too safe. There is no issue here. Getting more Drones is not a detriment to getting tech, more workers means more income means faster tech, that's how this game works, for all races. I watched the game again, and to be honest, if Symbol hadn't been so "greedy", and started building units sooner, he would have probably died to that all in. He barely got Infestors out, if he had built units earlier, he wouldn't have been able to. Without Infestors, even with twice the army supply, he would have died to the Immoral/Sentry/Blink Stalker composition. And it's not like he didn't have any army, yes he had 85 Drones, but he also was 40 supply ahead of Creator, so he still had more army supply, just lower quality until his Infestors came out. Your second sentence only applies once the workers are gathering and have 'paid' for themselves. And in Symbol's case, many of his drones weren't at that point yet. Otherwise, you could also say droning up and expanding is not detriment to your army either since you get more resources and production. So no, this isn't how the game works. At least not the way you describe without qualifying it. Symbol was on fully mining 3 bases for a very long time, while Creator was on 2. Creator missed his timing, he did an Immortal Sentry all in that hit way too late, had +2 and Blink Stalkers to compensate, but didn't have a Warp Prism. In return, Symbol had even more units than a Zerg typically does when Immortal Sentry hits at its normal timing, had Infestors coming out, had 1/1 finished and had Spine Crawlers in his natural. FFS give the guy some credit. He'll get credit depending on how many zergs and/or protoss make it to the Ro16. I get the feeling if there weren't just 5 protoss there would be a lot less whining. But hey, maybe the remaining 4 will make it through and we can stop whining or not. This is exactly why every race should care about imbalance. Players that I liked got zero credit during the last few months (and potentially the months to come as well) because they were zerg. Making it to round of 4 in a high profile tournament wasn't impressive if you played zerg, because everyone assumed that it was just the race you played that let you do so well.
Poor guys, they get the money for top placements in tournaments but who cares when anonymous people on the Internet attribute their success to the race?
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Does this qualify as a successful world champion title defense?
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holy crap dat last game between Symbol and Creator :O siiiick!
also, so great to see/hear Tastosis again =)
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On January 23 2013 05:18 Alryk wrote:
Does this qualify as a successful world champion title defense?
Yeah, Life didn't lose the title since he didn't lose a series. It counts as an ongoing streak.
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I really missed tastosis casting code s :D
\o/
edit: and holy shit, i never realised creator was this good.. :O
edit2: oops, i hadn't seen the overall results when editing 8), but still...
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Australia8759 Posts
The only game last night I missed was the last game.
...looks like I have to go watch the last game though from the recommendations.
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On January 23 2013 07:36 Yorbon wrote:
I really missed tastosis casting code s :D
\o/
Me too. Me too. I am a sad pander not to hear them talk every day. And making jokes. Those two guys. Are the best.
I dont know why ppl argue about GSL vs PL. Two different things. The first is real commpetition the second is tradition, mindgame and show. There are certain issues with the connection but if this are finally worked out i believe GSL is still the way to go. Also i like PL but there is nothing greater than here those two talk and see such prepared games off 3 base. Sad that not everybody can enjoy GSL so much or doesn't even want to support this product.
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I can't believe Symbol goes up to 85 or 90 drones and 4 base and the allin still doesn't kill him. Sorry Creator  Life deserved to make it at least.
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Haven't made it through all of the vods yet but who is observing? looks very ..panicked.
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can't believe life made it, lucky noob
User was banned for this post.
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On January 23 2013 08:37 red_alertz wrote:
can't believe life made it, lucky noob
noob? you're saying that you could win a title in code s?
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EPT
