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On January 16 2013 21:32 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 15:02 HolyArrow wrote:On January 16 2013 11:54 LighT. wrote:
The excuses that people have for EG-TL has more to do with how severely people underestimate the skill level of KeSPA players in SC2. Because only the Ace players have had success in other tournaments; they view the rest of the A-teamers like Stork, Light, Hydra, soo, Best, as B-leaguers who would not stand up to the A-teamers for EG-TL because relatively, Revival (with GSTL), Hero (NASL), JYP (*shrugs*), Thorzain (Dreamhack), had won tournaments before whereas the KeSPA have no history of any success at all.
This is a bad thought process. I think there's enough sample size to note that KeSPA A-Teamers are just as good as eSF A-teamers at this point; and in some cases even better. (A team like SKT T1/KT Rolster could land a whooping on a team like Prime).
As for Taeja/Stephano/Jaedong.
Taeja and Stephano are ace calibre players. This is obvious. Taeja is also performing like an ace player, having a dominant Round1 but proving that the ace players of other teams are just as good as he is. The same will apply for Stephano. He will likely have a decent record, however, he will still be prone to sniping, and players like Soulkey, Rain, Flash will present a formidable challenge to him.
As for Jaedong...he's doing good..no idea why he isnt being sent out often. Lol underestimate? Just a few months ago people were screaming about how the elephant stampede is going to cause a revolution in Code S, and look what happened at the Up/Downs recently. Even I wouldn't have predicted that zero Kespa players would get through. Also, Revival and JYP haven't won any individual tournaments, so I don't see why you even bothered listing them - it doesn't contribute to the point you're trying to make at all, it just makes it look like you're really reaching. Lastly, there's no proof that SKT T1/KT would "land a whooping" on Prime. That's pure conjecture, and I say that as someone whose least favorite ESF team is probably Prime. MKP, Byun, Creator, and to a lesser extent Maru, are all formidable players who can go head-to-head with Kespa's best. In SC2, anyone can beat anyone else on a fairly regular basis, so it doesn't really even work to bring up minute examples of X beating Y on individual occasions. For example, Taeja has fairly recently lost Bo3s to Genius and finale (which hold more water than Bo1s, I might add), neither of whom anyone would regard as an ace caliber player, yet by your metric, you'd be able to argue that they're "just as good" as him. There seems to be somewhat of a double standard regarding Kespa players beating top-tier ESF players and low/mid-tier ESF players beating top-tier ESF players. When the former occurs, suddenly there's talk of how top Kespa players are surpassing top ESF players, but when the latter occurs, it's just an upset, nothing more. In regards to Stephano, ZvZ is by and far his worst matchup. I mean, he's been recently losing to foreigners on a fairly regular basis in ZvZ, so Kespa players beating him in ZvZ doesn't say much. If you really want to look at the truly "top" players then you have to look toward which players are consistently winning/placing high in major individual tournaments, and the only Kespa player who's doing that/has done that is Rain (and he's fallen off really badly recently in the GSL for some reason). That isn't even that big of a deal. Simply because the Kespa players priority is pro league. They were practicing more for their Pro League opponents while the non-GSL players in the U/D's only had their U/D matches to focus on which gave them more time to study and prepare for their opponents then the Kespa players had. The Kespa players are also practicing on a different map pool too.
Oh the irony. All this started as criticism to ESF/Foreign players making excuses.
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On January 16 2013 15:02 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 11:54 LighT. wrote:
The excuses that people have for EG-TL has more to do with how severely people underestimate the skill level of KeSPA players in SC2. Because only the Ace players have had success in other tournaments; they view the rest of the A-teamers like Stork, Light, Hydra, soo, Best, as B-leaguers who would not stand up to the A-teamers for EG-TL because relatively, Revival (with GSTL), Hero (NASL), JYP (*shrugs*), Thorzain (Dreamhack), had won tournaments before whereas the KeSPA have no history of any success at all.
This is a bad thought process. I think there's enough sample size to note that KeSPA A-Teamers are just as good as eSF A-teamers at this point; and in some cases even better. (A team like SKT T1/KT Rolster could land a whooping on a team like Prime).
As for Taeja/Stephano/Jaedong.
Taeja and Stephano are ace calibre players. This is obvious. Taeja is also performing like an ace player, having a dominant Round1 but proving that the ace players of other teams are just as good as he is. The same will apply for Stephano. He will likely have a decent record, however, he will still be prone to sniping, and players like Soulkey, Rain, Flash will present a formidable challenge to him.
As for Jaedong...he's doing good..no idea why he isnt being sent out often. Lol underestimate? Just a few months ago people were screaming about how the elephant stampede is going to cause a revolution in Code S, and look what happened at the Up/Downs recently. Even I wouldn't have predicted that zero Kespa players would get through. Also, Revival and JYP haven't won any individual tournaments, so I don't see why you even bothered listing them - it doesn't contribute to the point you're trying to make at all, it just makes it look like you're really reaching. Lastly, there's no proof that SKT T1/KT would "land a whooping" on Prime. That's pure conjecture, and I say that as someone whose least favorite ESF team is probably Prime. MKP, Byun, Creator, and to a lesser extent Maru, are all formidable players who can go head-to-head with Kespa's best. In SC2, anyone can beat anyone else on a fairly regular basis, so it doesn't really even work to bring up minute examples of X beating Y on individual occasions. For example, Taeja has fairly recently lost Bo3s to Genius and finale (which hold more water than Bo1s, I might add), neither of whom anyone would regard as an ace caliber player, yet by your metric, you'd be able to argue that they're "just as good" as him. There seems to be somewhat of a double standard regarding Kespa players beating top-tier ESF players and low/mid-tier ESF players beating top-tier ESF players. When the former occurs, suddenly there's talk of how top Kespa players are surpassing top ESF players, but when the latter occurs, it's just an upset, nothing more. In regards to Stephano, ZvZ is by and far his worst matchup. I mean, he's been recently losing to foreigners on a fairly regular basis in ZvZ, so Kespa players beating him in ZvZ doesn't say much. If you really want to look at the truly "top" players then you have to look toward which players are consistently winning/placing high in major individual tournaments, and the only Kespa player who's doing that/has done that is Rain (and he's fallen off really badly recently in the GSL for some reason).
Yes, they've been severely underestimated by a lot of people. When this whole fiasco about "elephant stampede" arose; you have to realize there was one side that said "KeSPA players = GOAT!!" and another that stated that KeSPA players will be nothing more than B-teamers who will achieve nothing and live up to nothing compared to MVP/Nestea/MC and the top players at the time. What happened in Up/Downs tells the story of absolutely nothing. If you watch the proleague; its blatantly clear the skill level is as good as the ones who got through. Your angle of attack is "Oh look nobody from Up/DOwns who were Kespa got through Code S, they're not that good". Pretty flawed argument if you ask me. It would also be unrealistic to expect that KeSPA players would cause a "stampede" as you speak as well outside o the few special exceptions of Flash/Jaedong which did not happen. However that is not to say; they're starting to show that they're dominant players. LIsting Revival and JYP does support my arguments.
JYP is a former Code S player; Revival was a tremendous GSTL player; they contribute to the fact that people had them completely dominating the proleague along with Taeja/Hero/Stephano overlooking that the fact that the players there might be actually as equal or greater in skill level. So yes, it DOES support my argument.
Of course, what I stated is completely subjective on the SKTT1/KT vs Prime issue, that is my opinion; you are free to argue it. However, in my entitled opinion; those two teams seems clear cut better than mid-tier eSF teams.
See, approaching it from "oh bo1 is not a good measurement to say player X is as good as player Y" is not a valid approach; however making that judgment from watching the VOD/games and seeing the comparative skill is. The mechanics (macro/micro and in some cases even strategies are right up on par with the best). O sure beating Player X beating Player Y means nothing, I mean in Sc:Bw freakin Dear beat Flash and that doesnt mean he was up to his level. In SC2 example, Haypro beat Nestea; same logic applies; however...when you factor in a large sample of games, and analysis of games; THEN you can make the strong argument that KeSPA players are as good as the mid to top tier KeSPA players and really; its a given fact at this point.
I can see youre arguing from one viewpoint failing to acknowledge the other side.
There are people who do argue that KeSPA players are marching along with force when they beat top-tier players; and that there are people who argue that when eSF players beat the top KeSPA players; that it was an upset; however, there is also a strong majority that also argue the exact opposite and repress the skill level of KeSPA. Double standard? The same exists the other way around; as a result of bias.
Stephano has played 4 games thus far; not too much of a sample size to go off of as well he played 2 series. however the other EG-TL players have all played more than at least 4 series. By denoting specifically that Stephano has a poor ZvZ; you seem to be implying that "well Stephano is still clearly better than most KeSPA except his ZvZ is bad so expect him to lose to the zergs who are inferior to him". That has little to do with my argument such that. Stephano would likely get sniped. I've stated that only the Top KeSPA players would present formidable challenges to Stephano; I acknowledge the fact that he is infact "better" than the mid-tier players. and doesnt disprove the fact that top tier KeSPA players are as good as the tope tier eSF.
Now you final argument about consistently winning/placing high in tournaments.
They havent been getting equal chances to prove themselves.
This is a purely idiotic argument
Looking down the line of who participated in what
: Flash (MLG, Up/Downs, OSL)
Bogus (Code S, IPL5)
Soulkey (Code S)
Baby (Code S)
Last (OSL, Code A)
Flying (OSL, Code A)
Rain (Code S, OSL, MLG)
Roro (Code S)
soO (Code S, MLG)
now. lets take a look at this. I have discounted WCS because that tournament was when every KeSPA players was still adjusting to the scene and at the moment; it wa spretty clear they were not on the level of ESF players at that point.
ONLY Flash, Bogus, Rain, Last and Flying have participated in more than 1 Tournament. 5 players.
Of those five;
Flying/Last are low tier A-teamers; and although Flying got OSL16, Last OSL4, and each got somewhat far with Code S; theyre proven they're only as good as low-tier A-teamers of the eSF players. Proving the argument.
Rain. you've mentioned.
Flash/Bogus. Outside of Bogus'es choking hard on IPL5, he's an ace player for STX and he's played like one in the Code S, the only other tournament youve spoke of. As for Flash? Oh yes, he did choke again on the Up/Downs, but the other two tournaments he's participated, he's got "consistent" high rankings in those. So in a way yes, it does support my argument again.
Consistently/high rank in tournaments...you make that statement yet..you dont realize that mostly all KeSPA players have not participated more than the GSL qualifiers. Have they had a chance to prove themselves at multiple tournaments or even participate in them? With the iron fist of KeSPA; they havent; and when they have; the ace calibre players have turned in good results. players like Bogus completely choked in a tournament; but that is to say; it is possible for players to choke out of a tournament or two. THis happened with Nestea, MVP, Taeja, Seed, MC, Leenock the best of the best
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This whole fiasco between EG-TL vs KeSPA is revolved around bias of "ESF > KESPA" or "KESPA > ESF" if people were to look at it from a more clear view; objectively; just looking at the players skill levels. and not giving them labels for classification based on where they originate one; we wouldnt be having this stupid argument.
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I think it's clear that current or former KeSPA players are the dominant force in SC2 for the most part. Even if we ignore proleague, you have Mvp, Nestea, MC, etc.
Now if we are only talking about current KeSPA progamers, I think most of them will need a bit of time to catch up given that they haven't been playing for very long, other than a few exceptions such as Rain.
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I can safely announce that my dad is the strongest. Hence, further discussion is pointless.
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I think EG-TL should really make sure they're doing their best (I mean lineup selection too), to do something in prolegaue this year.
It will get harder and harder each season.
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On January 17 2013 00:21 Daswollvieh wrote:
I can safely announce that my dad is the strongest. Hence, further discussion is pointless.
I got no argument against, it must be true.
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On January 17 2013 00:21 Daswollvieh wrote:
I can safely announce that my dad is the strongest. Hence, further discussion is pointless.
My dad can beat up your dad
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On January 17 2013 01:20 NbSky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 00:21 Daswollvieh wrote:
I can safely announce that my dad is the strongest. Hence, further discussion is pointless.
My dad can beat up your dad
Well I have 3 older brothers and a fat little sister and together we can beat up your dad :p
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If EGTL wants to make something happen in Proleague they should have Jaedong practicing 24/7 for Proleague . It worked in Hwaseung no reason it wouldn't work here . It was nice sending him to win his first tournament outside of Korea for him to get more confidence , but now that they are behind they should focus more on Proleague .
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On January 16 2013 23:57 LighT. wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 16 2013 15:02 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 11:54 LighT. wrote:
The excuses that people have for EG-TL has more to do with how severely people underestimate the skill level of KeSPA players in SC2. Because only the Ace players have had success in other tournaments; they view the rest of the A-teamers like Stork, Light, Hydra, soo, Best, as B-leaguers who would not stand up to the A-teamers for EG-TL because relatively, Revival (with GSTL), Hero (NASL), JYP (*shrugs*), Thorzain (Dreamhack), had won tournaments before whereas the KeSPA have no history of any success at all.
This is a bad thought process. I think there's enough sample size to note that KeSPA A-Teamers are just as good as eSF A-teamers at this point; and in some cases even better. (A team like SKT T1/KT Rolster could land a whooping on a team like Prime).
As for Taeja/Stephano/Jaedong.
Taeja and Stephano are ace calibre players. This is obvious. Taeja is also performing like an ace player, having a dominant Round1 but proving that the ace players of other teams are just as good as he is. The same will apply for Stephano. He will likely have a decent record, however, he will still be prone to sniping, and players like Soulkey, Rain, Flash will present a formidable challenge to him.
As for Jaedong...he's doing good..no idea why he isnt being sent out often. Lol underestimate? Just a few months ago people were screaming about how the elephant stampede is going to cause a revolution in Code S, and look what happened at the Up/Downs recently. Even I wouldn't have predicted that zero Kespa players would get through. Also, Revival and JYP haven't won any individual tournaments, so I don't see why you even bothered listing them - it doesn't contribute to the point you're trying to make at all, it just makes it look like you're really reaching. Lastly, there's no proof that SKT T1/KT would "land a whooping" on Prime. That's pure conjecture, and I say that as someone whose least favorite ESF team is probably Prime. MKP, Byun, Creator, and to a lesser extent Maru, are all formidable players who can go head-to-head with Kespa's best. In SC2, anyone can beat anyone else on a fairly regular basis, so it doesn't really even work to bring up minute examples of X beating Y on individual occasions. For example, Taeja has fairly recently lost Bo3s to Genius and finale (which hold more water than Bo1s, I might add), neither of whom anyone would regard as an ace caliber player, yet by your metric, you'd be able to argue that they're "just as good" as him. There seems to be somewhat of a double standard regarding Kespa players beating top-tier ESF players and low/mid-tier ESF players beating top-tier ESF players. When the former occurs, suddenly there's talk of how top Kespa players are surpassing top ESF players, but when the latter occurs, it's just an upset, nothing more. In regards to Stephano, ZvZ is by and far his worst matchup. I mean, he's been recently losing to foreigners on a fairly regular basis in ZvZ, so Kespa players beating him in ZvZ doesn't say much. If you really want to look at the truly "top" players then you have to look toward which players are consistently winning/placing high in major individual tournaments, and the only Kespa player who's doing that/has done that is Rain (and he's fallen off really badly recently in the GSL for some reason). Yes, they've been severely underestimated by a lot of people. When this whole fiasco about "elephant stampede" arose; you have to realize there was one side that said "KeSPA players = GOAT!!" and another that stated that KeSPA players will be nothing more than B-teamers who will achieve nothing and live up to nothing compared to MVP/Nestea/MC and the top players at the time. What happened in Up/Downs tells the story of absolutely nothing. If you watch the proleague; its blatantly clear the skill level is as good as the ones who got through. Your angle of attack is "Oh look nobody from Up/DOwns who were Kespa got through Code S, they're not that good". Pretty flawed argument if you ask me. It would also be unrealistic to expect that KeSPA players would cause a "stampede" as you speak as well outside o the few special exceptions of Flash/Jaedong which did not happen. However that is not to say; they're starting to show that they're dominant players. LIsting Revival and JYP does support my arguments. JYP is a former Code S player; Revival was a tremendous GSTL player; they contribute to the fact that people had them completely dominating the proleague along with Taeja/Hero/Stephano overlooking that the fact that the players there might be actually as equal or greater in skill level. So yes, it DOES support my argument. Of course, what I stated is completely subjective on the SKTT1/KT vs Prime issue, that is my opinion; you are free to argue it. However, in my entitled opinion; those two teams seems clear cut better than mid-tier eSF teams. See, approaching it from "oh bo1 is not a good measurement to say player X is as good as player Y" is not a valid approach; however making that judgment from watching the VOD/games and seeing the comparative skill is. The mechanics (macro/micro and in some cases even strategies are right up on par with the best). O sure beating Player X beating Player Y means nothing, I mean in Sc:Bw freakin Dear beat Flash and that doesnt mean he was up to his level. In SC2 example, Haypro beat Nestea; same logic applies; however...when you factor in a large sample of games, and analysis of games; THEN you can make the strong argument that KeSPA players are as good as the mid to top tier KeSPA players and really; its a given fact at this point. I can see youre arguing from one viewpoint failing to acknowledge the other side. There are people who do argue that KeSPA players are marching along with force when they beat top-tier players; and that there are people who argue that when eSF players beat the top KeSPA players; that it was an upset; however, there is also a strong majority that also argue the exact opposite and repress the skill level of KeSPA. Double standard? The same exists the other way around; as a result of bias. Stephano has played 4 games thus far; not too much of a sample size to go off of as well he played 2 series. however the other EG-TL players have all played more than at least 4 series. By denoting specifically that Stephano has a poor ZvZ; you seem to be implying that "well Stephano is still clearly better than most KeSPA except his ZvZ is bad so expect him to lose to the zergs who are inferior to him". That has little to do with my argument such that. Stephano would likely get sniped. I've stated that only the Top KeSPA players would present formidable challenges to Stephano; I acknowledge the fact that he is infact "better" than the mid-tier players. and doesnt disprove the fact that top tier KeSPA players are as good as the tope tier eSF. Now you final argument about consistently winning/placing high in tournaments. They havent been getting equal chances to prove themselves. This is a purely idiotic argument Looking down the line of who participated in what : Flash (MLG, Up/Downs, OSL) Bogus (Code S, IPL5) Soulkey (Code S) Baby (Code S) Last (OSL, Code A) Flying (OSL, Code A) Rain (Code S, OSL, MLG) Roro (Code S) soO (Code S, MLG) now. lets take a look at this. I have discounted WCS because that tournament was when every KeSPA players was still adjusting to the scene and at the moment; it wa spretty clear they were not on the level of ESF players at that point. ONLY Flash, Bogus, Rain, Last and Flying have participated in more than 1 Tournament. 5 players. Of those five; Flying/Last are low tier A-teamers; and although Flying got OSL16, Last OSL4, and each got somewhat far with Code S; theyre proven they're only as good as low-tier A-teamers of the eSF players. Proving the argument. Rain. you've mentioned. Flash/Bogus. Outside of Bogus'es choking hard on IPL5, he's an ace player for STX and he's played like one in the Code S, the only other tournament youve spoke of. As for Flash? Oh yes, he did choke again on the Up/Downs, but the other two tournaments he's participated, he's got "consistent" high rankings in those. So in a way yes, it does support my argument again. Consistently/high rank in tournaments...you make that statement yet..you dont realize that mostly all KeSPA players have not participated more than the GSL qualifiers. Have they had a chance to prove themselves at multiple tournaments or even participate in them? With the iron fist of KeSPA; they havent; and when they have; the ace calibre players have turned in good results. players like Bogus completely choked in a tournament; but that is to say; it is possible for players to choke out of a tournament or two. THis happened with Nestea, MVP, Taeja, Seed, MC, Leenock the best of the best
Ok, first of all, let's make something clear. I have no problem admitting that Kespa players are of roughly equal skill level to ESF players. My problem arises when people start reaching really hard to insinuate that Kespa players are BETTER, because I see no evidence to support that, in tournaments, performances, or anything else. Of course, you can chalk that up as my personal opinion, but hey, this whole discussion is mostly opinion-based anyway. Also, I never expected EG-TL to dominate proleague, honestly. The fact is that, again, almost anyone can beat anyone in SC2, it's a pretty volatile game.
I find it kind of strange that you regard Revival so highly as some team league beast. I personally saw him as this mediocre Zerg who only recently had a couple of strong team league performances after joining EG (which doesn't mean much - consistency matters). His long-term record supports this claim - he's sitting at a little below 50% in every matchup, which certainly isn't very impressive. Secondly, being a "former Code S player" doesn't really mean much (in regards to JYP, or any other player that you want to pin that title to). I could list a multitude of former code S players that most people wouldn't consider that good right now. It just seems like you're trying to overstate the skill of certain EG-TL players so that the wins that Kespa players are getting over them appear to have more impact.
In regards to the whole double standard thing, yes, I agree that everyone's biased. Let's just leave it at not looking at individual X beating Y results since we both agree that that doesn't really hold any merit. Again, I have no problem admitting that in the big picture, Kespa players have overall been doing fine against ESF players, and in that regard, you can call them roughly equal in skill (I use the word "roughly" because any sort of precise determination is impossible). But also, I see no evidence to suggest that there's any surpassing going on, either. I'd also like to add that ESF players seem to be good sports about this rivalry and are even helping Kespa players along, as evidenced by Jaehoon's interview where he thanks players like MC and Creator for teaching him stuff. Not that that's a bad thing, it's nice to see ESF players helping Kespa players catch up.
As for Stephano, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm not trying to suggest that except for his ZvZ, he's overall better than Kespa players. All I was suggesting is that him losing ZvZ is utterly unsurprising and not indicative of anything in regards to Kespa prowess, unless you're trying to argue that Kespa players' ZvZ is at least as good as IdrA's and Cytoplasm's ZvZ, which is... not that impressive, to say the least.
Now, your point about Kespa players just not having many chances to prove themselves is acknowledged, so it's just agree to say that we can't say much from their individual tournament results one way or the other because the sample size is too small right now.
Ultimately, I admit that I overreacted to your post because in retrospect you were just stating the obvious (a more general version of your statement would be that the a-teamers from the top Kespa teams would beat the a-teamers from the weakest ESF team, and that does indeed seem reasonable, although it's still pure conjecture and NSHS would be a far better candidate for your statement than Prime). I think the problem here is that we're looking at things in terms of teams, instead of individual players. Are the very top Kespa players equal in skill to the very top ESF players? No, I don't think so, at least, not yet. Are the very top Kespa teams possibly better than the bottom-of-the-barrel ESF team (*cough* NSHS *cough*)? Certainly, though I might add that I consider NSHS to be by and far the weakest ESF team, as in, no other team comes close to being as weak as they are, currently. Hell, I'd even give top-tier foreign teams (as in, foreign teams that actually use mostly foreigners, so not EG or TL) a good shot at beating NSHS. Are most of the mid-tier Kespa and mid-tier ESF players in roughly the same place? Yeah, sure.
As a side note that has nothing to with the rest of this reply, lol @ people saying that Kespa players failed in the Up/Downs because they only care about Proleague. I'll just quote Fionn's writeup since it sums up my thoughts quite well:
"There will be of course talk of KeSPA players not caring about GSL and how all their focus is on Proleague. That's ridiculous. With the OSL having no set date as to when it will return, any KeSPA player not taking a Code S spot seriously would be a fool. The big names like Fantasy, Jaedong and Flash had decent showings, placing in the middle for all three, but they still weren't able to grab one of the two direct spots into Code S. Heading into the first season of 2013, we will only have Bogus, Soulkey, Baby, Roro (who beat Fantasy in the third stage of Code A) and maybe Jaedong if he makes it out of the wild card group.
So what does this mean for the future? I'm not worried about a Fantasy or Flash making it into a future Code S, but the expectation that Starcraft 2 would become KeSPA World is becoming more of a dream by each passing day. Not only are the B-teamers from the old Brood War days holding down their ground well like Mvp, Nestea and MC, but you have the young upstarts like Life, Creator, and surprises like Center who are coming in with StarCraft II as their first serious game. With a lot of ESF teams having an uncertain future with money and keeping a team together, a lot of these young stars could switch to KeSPA in the coming years, but it might be time to look back at the Elephant in the Room, have a good laugh, and move on with our lives.
This is a new game and it doesn't matter if you're a former A-team star or a practice partner who cleaned the floors. The strong will survive and the weak will fall."
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Mvp, Nestea, MC - players with a KeSPA background have shown time and time again they have superior talent. However, the players who have just recently switched over to SC2, in contrast with those who switched years ago, still need time to adjust I think. We can't consider then superior to ESF players yet.
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Dont get it wrong its not EG-TL coach its EG coach thats probably why you are seeing more puma then hero, taeja and zenio he states he has confidence in all his players but not the brains to put in the better players who trained for the match just as hard
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On January 17 2013 06:19 Emzeeshady wrote:
People seem to have this misconception that EGTL represents ESF. The only two Code S players on EGTL are Taeja and Stephano who are almost undoubtably the best players on the team. With the exception of Stephano's ZvZ the top tier Kespa players are probably at Stephano and Taeja's level roughly.
Fact is though they do not even touch the upper echolon of ESF Code S players. Life, Leenock, Creator, Hyun, Gumiho (this is gunna be his season), and Parting are all better then pretty much every single Kespa player and by no minor margin. There is a reason that there are so few Kespa players in Code S when so many have tried. I am not denying that Kespa players have potential but a lot of them (especially Flash, Jaedong and Bisu) are no where NEAR where people think they are (ok, maybe people know Bisu is garbage).
We will have to wait and see. HOTS brings a new challenge and I expect a new order brought in. What this will consist of? We will just have to wait and see.
Most people see ESF as generic term that describes any player or team that has played the game prior to Kespas entrance. Much in a way like we use the word "foreigner" to describe everybody outside Korea.
You don't have enough supporting evidence to make that claim. Also, keep in mind that those players also started more than 2 years ago. 2 year old builds are still viable in this game -- so what does that tell you?
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On January 17 2013 04:53 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 23:57 LighT. wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 16 2013 15:02 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 11:54 LighT. wrote:
The excuses that people have for EG-TL has more to do with how severely people underestimate the skill level of KeSPA players in SC2. Because only the Ace players have had success in other tournaments; they view the rest of the A-teamers like Stork, Light, Hydra, soo, Best, as B-leaguers who would not stand up to the A-teamers for EG-TL because relatively, Revival (with GSTL), Hero (NASL), JYP (*shrugs*), Thorzain (Dreamhack), had won tournaments before whereas the KeSPA have no history of any success at all.
This is a bad thought process. I think there's enough sample size to note that KeSPA A-Teamers are just as good as eSF A-teamers at this point; and in some cases even better. (A team like SKT T1/KT Rolster could land a whooping on a team like Prime).
As for Taeja/Stephano/Jaedong.
Taeja and Stephano are ace calibre players. This is obvious. Taeja is also performing like an ace player, having a dominant Round1 but proving that the ace players of other teams are just as good as he is. The same will apply for Stephano. He will likely have a decent record, however, he will still be prone to sniping, and players like Soulkey, Rain, Flash will present a formidable challenge to him.
As for Jaedong...he's doing good..no idea why he isnt being sent out often. Lol underestimate? Just a few months ago people were screaming about how the elephant stampede is going to cause a revolution in Code S, and look what happened at the Up/Downs recently. Even I wouldn't have predicted that zero Kespa players would get through. Also, Revival and JYP haven't won any individual tournaments, so I don't see why you even bothered listing them - it doesn't contribute to the point you're trying to make at all, it just makes it look like you're really reaching. Lastly, there's no proof that SKT T1/KT would "land a whooping" on Prime. That's pure conjecture, and I say that as someone whose least favorite ESF team is probably Prime. MKP, Byun, Creator, and to a lesser extent Maru, are all formidable players who can go head-to-head with Kespa's best. In SC2, anyone can beat anyone else on a fairly regular basis, so it doesn't really even work to bring up minute examples of X beating Y on individual occasions. For example, Taeja has fairly recently lost Bo3s to Genius and finale (which hold more water than Bo1s, I might add), neither of whom anyone would regard as an ace caliber player, yet by your metric, you'd be able to argue that they're "just as good" as him. There seems to be somewhat of a double standard regarding Kespa players beating top-tier ESF players and low/mid-tier ESF players beating top-tier ESF players. When the former occurs, suddenly there's talk of how top Kespa players are surpassing top ESF players, but when the latter occurs, it's just an upset, nothing more. In regards to Stephano, ZvZ is by and far his worst matchup. I mean, he's been recently losing to foreigners on a fairly regular basis in ZvZ, so Kespa players beating him in ZvZ doesn't say much. If you really want to look at the truly "top" players then you have to look toward which players are consistently winning/placing high in major individual tournaments, and the only Kespa player who's doing that/has done that is Rain (and he's fallen off really badly recently in the GSL for some reason). Yes, they've been severely underestimated by a lot of people. When this whole fiasco about "elephant stampede" arose; you have to realize there was one side that said "KeSPA players = GOAT!!" and another that stated that KeSPA players will be nothing more than B-teamers who will achieve nothing and live up to nothing compared to MVP/Nestea/MC and the top players at the time. What happened in Up/Downs tells the story of absolutely nothing. If you watch the proleague; its blatantly clear the skill level is as good as the ones who got through. Your angle of attack is "Oh look nobody from Up/DOwns who were Kespa got through Code S, they're not that good". Pretty flawed argument if you ask me. It would also be unrealistic to expect that KeSPA players would cause a "stampede" as you speak as well outside o the few special exceptions of Flash/Jaedong which did not happen. However that is not to say; they're starting to show that they're dominant players. LIsting Revival and JYP does support my arguments. JYP is a former Code S player; Revival was a tremendous GSTL player; they contribute to the fact that people had them completely dominating the proleague along with Taeja/Hero/Stephano overlooking that the fact that the players there might be actually as equal or greater in skill level. So yes, it DOES support my argument. Of course, what I stated is completely subjective on the SKTT1/KT vs Prime issue, that is my opinion; you are free to argue it. However, in my entitled opinion; those two teams seems clear cut better than mid-tier eSF teams. See, approaching it from "oh bo1 is not a good measurement to say player X is as good as player Y" is not a valid approach; however making that judgment from watching the VOD/games and seeing the comparative skill is. The mechanics (macro/micro and in some cases even strategies are right up on par with the best). O sure beating Player X beating Player Y means nothing, I mean in Sc:Bw freakin Dear beat Flash and that doesnt mean he was up to his level. In SC2 example, Haypro beat Nestea; same logic applies; however...when you factor in a large sample of games, and analysis of games; THEN you can make the strong argument that KeSPA players are as good as the mid to top tier KeSPA players and really; its a given fact at this point. I can see youre arguing from one viewpoint failing to acknowledge the other side. There are people who do argue that KeSPA players are marching along with force when they beat top-tier players; and that there are people who argue that when eSF players beat the top KeSPA players; that it was an upset; however, there is also a strong majority that also argue the exact opposite and repress the skill level of KeSPA. Double standard? The same exists the other way around; as a result of bias. Stephano has played 4 games thus far; not too much of a sample size to go off of as well he played 2 series. however the other EG-TL players have all played more than at least 4 series. By denoting specifically that Stephano has a poor ZvZ; you seem to be implying that "well Stephano is still clearly better than most KeSPA except his ZvZ is bad so expect him to lose to the zergs who are inferior to him". That has little to do with my argument such that. Stephano would likely get sniped. I've stated that only the Top KeSPA players would present formidable challenges to Stephano; I acknowledge the fact that he is infact "better" than the mid-tier players. and doesnt disprove the fact that top tier KeSPA players are as good as the tope tier eSF. Now you final argument about consistently winning/placing high in tournaments. They havent been getting equal chances to prove themselves. This is a purely idiotic argument Looking down the line of who participated in what : Flash (MLG, Up/Downs, OSL) Bogus (Code S, IPL5) Soulkey (Code S) Baby (Code S) Last (OSL, Code A) Flying (OSL, Code A) Rain (Code S, OSL, MLG) Roro (Code S) soO (Code S, MLG) now. lets take a look at this. I have discounted WCS because that tournament was when every KeSPA players was still adjusting to the scene and at the moment; it wa spretty clear they were not on the level of ESF players at that point. ONLY Flash, Bogus, Rain, Last and Flying have participated in more than 1 Tournament. 5 players. Of those five; Flying/Last are low tier A-teamers; and although Flying got OSL16, Last OSL4, and each got somewhat far with Code S; theyre proven they're only as good as low-tier A-teamers of the eSF players. Proving the argument. Rain. you've mentioned. Flash/Bogus. Outside of Bogus'es choking hard on IPL5, he's an ace player for STX and he's played like one in the Code S, the only other tournament youve spoke of. As for Flash? Oh yes, he did choke again on the Up/Downs, but the other two tournaments he's participated, he's got "consistent" high rankings in those. So in a way yes, it does support my argument again. Consistently/high rank in tournaments...you make that statement yet..you dont realize that mostly all KeSPA players have not participated more than the GSL qualifiers. Have they had a chance to prove themselves at multiple tournaments or even participate in them? With the iron fist of KeSPA; they havent; and when they have; the ace calibre players have turned in good results. players like Bogus completely choked in a tournament; but that is to say; it is possible for players to choke out of a tournament or two. THis happened with Nestea, MVP, Taeja, Seed, MC, Leenock the best of the best Ok, first of all, let's make something clear. I have no problem admitting that Kespa players are of roughly equal skill level to ESF players. My problem arises when people start reaching really hard to insinuate that Kespa players are BETTER, because I see no evidence to support that, in tournaments, performances, or anything else. Of course, you can chalk that up as my personal opinion, but hey, this whole discussion is mostly opinion-based anyway. Also, I never expected EG-TL to dominate proleague, honestly. The fact is that, again, almost anyone can beat anyone in SC2, it's a pretty volatile game. I find it kind of strange that you regard Revival so highly as some team league beast. I personally saw him as this mediocre Zerg who only recently had a couple of strong team league performances after joining EG (which doesn't mean much - consistency matters). His long-term record supports this claim - he's sitting at a little below 50% in every matchup, which certainly isn't very impressive. Secondly, being a "former Code S player" doesn't really mean much (in regards to JYP, or any other player that you want to pin that title to). I could list a multitude of former code S players that most people wouldn't consider that good right now. It just seems like you're trying to overstate the skill of certain EG-TL players so that the wins that Kespa players are getting over them appear to have more impact. In regards to the whole double standard thing, yes, I agree that everyone's biased. Let's just leave it at not looking at individual X beating Y results since we both agree that that doesn't really hold any merit. Again, I have no problem admitting that in the big picture, Kespa players have overall been doing fine against ESF players, and in that regard, you can call them roughly equal in skill (I use the word "roughly" because any sort of precise determination is impossible). But also, I see no evidence to suggest that there's any surpassing going on, either. I'd also like to add that ESF players seem to be good sports about this rivalry and are even helping Kespa players along, as evidenced by Jaehoon's interview where he thanks players like MC and Creator for teaching him stuff. Not that that's a bad thing, it's nice to see ESF players helping Kespa players catch up. As for Stephano, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm not trying to suggest that except for his ZvZ, he's overall better than Kespa players. All I was suggesting is that him losing ZvZ is utterly unsurprising and not indicative of anything in regards to Kespa prowess, unless you're trying to argue that Kespa players' ZvZ is at least as good as IdrA's and Cytoplasm's ZvZ, which is... not that impressive, to say the least. Now, your point about Kespa players just not having many chances to prove themselves is acknowledged, so it's just agree to say that we can't say much from their individual tournament results one way or the other because the sample size is too small right now. Ultimately, I admit that I overreacted to your post because in retrospect you were just stating the obvious (a more general version of your statement would be that the a-teamers from the top Kespa teams would beat the a-teamers from the weakest ESF team, and that does indeed seem reasonable, although it's still pure conjecture and NSHS would be a far better candidate for your statement than Prime). I think the problem here is that we're looking at things in terms of teams, instead of individual players. Are the very top Kespa players equal in skill to the very top ESF players? No, I don't think so, at least, not yet. Are the very top Kespa teams possibly better than the bottom-of-the-barrel ESF team (*cough* NSHS *cough*)? Certainly, though I might add that I consider NSHS to be by and far the weakest ESF team, as in, no other team comes close to being as weak as they are, currently. Hell, I'd even give top-tier foreign teams (as in, foreign teams that actually use mostly foreigners, so not EG or TL) a good shot at beating NSHS. Are most of the mid-tier Kespa and mid-tier ESF players in roughly the same place? Yeah, sure. As a side note that has nothing to with the rest of this reply, lol @ people saying that Kespa players failed in the Up/Downs because they only care about Proleague. I'll just quote Fionn's writeup since it sums up my thoughts quite well: "There will be of course talk of KeSPA players not caring about GSL and how all their focus is on Proleague. That's ridiculous. With the OSL having no set date as to when it will return, any KeSPA player not taking a Code S spot seriously would be a fool. The big names like Fantasy, Jaedong and Flash had decent showings, placing in the middle for all three, but they still weren't able to grab one of the two direct spots into Code S. Heading into the first season of 2013, we will only have Bogus, Soulkey, Baby, Roro (who beat Fantasy in the third stage of Code A) and maybe Jaedong if he makes it out of the wild card group.
So what does this mean for the future? I'm not worried about a Fantasy or Flash making it into a future Code S, but the expectation that Starcraft 2 would become KeSPA World is becoming more of a dream by each passing day. Not only are the B-teamers from the old Brood War days holding down their ground well like Mvp, Nestea and MC, but you have the young upstarts like Life, Creator, and surprises like Center who are coming in with StarCraft II as their first serious game. With a lot of ESF teams having an uncertain future with money and keeping a team together, a lot of these young stars could switch to KeSPA in the coming years, but it might be time to look back at the Elephant in the Room, have a good laugh, and move on with our lives.
This is a new game and it doesn't matter if you're a former A-team star or a practice partner who cleaned the floors. The strong will survive and the weak will fall."
I think peoples comments reflect the fact that Kespa players are "better" overall. As in: Their the better players mechanically and will show it once they gain as much experience as the ESF players. And not the way you're looking at it as in Kespa players are better at the "game" because right now, it's neck and neck.
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On January 17 2013 08:26 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 08:05 BlazeFury01 wrote:On January 17 2013 06:19 Emzeeshady wrote:
People seem to have this misconception that EGTL represents ESF. The only two Code S players on EGTL are Taeja and Stephano who are almost undoubtably the best players on the team. With the exception of Stephano's ZvZ the top tier Kespa players are probably at Stephano and Taeja's level roughly.
Fact is though they do not even touch the upper echolon of ESF Code S players. Life, Leenock, Creator, Hyun, Gumiho (this is gunna be his season), and Parting are all better then pretty much every single Kespa player and by no minor margin. There is a reason that there are so few Kespa players in Code S when so many have tried. I am not denying that Kespa players have potential but a lot of them (especially Flash, Jaedong and Bisu) are no where NEAR where people think they are (ok, maybe people know Bisu is garbage).
We will have to wait and see. HOTS brings a new challenge and I expect a new order brought in. What this will consist of? We will just have to wait and see. Most people see ESF as generic term that describes any player or team that has played the game prior to Kespas entrance. Much in a way like we use the word "foreigner" to describe everybody outside Korea. You don't have enough supporting evidence to make that claim. Also, keep in mind that those players also started more than 2 years ago. 2 year old builds are still viable in this game -- so what does that tell you? I don't really think I need supporting evidence (although I think I could prove Parting, Life and Leenock are on top pretty easily). I have played and watched this game for over and year now and I have developed into a good player and observer. I have enough knowledge of this game to know that although Free all killed yesterday he show inferior level of play to Creator in IPL Fight Club (just one example). Free's accomplishment is more impressive but Creator proved to me he is the better player right now. Another example of results vs performance is Flash vs Life at MLG. Flash goes up 2-0 in the series but in all 6 games they played he only showed superior gameplay in 1 out of those 6 games and was destroyed in most of them. That series proved to me how wide the skill gap is between those two players despite it seeming somewhat close.
Tbh Flash shouldn't have won any games considering how long Life has played the game and the fact that Life won the GSL at that time and also ended up being the winner of that MLG. The fact that Flash did win the first set without the level of knowledge that Life posses from experience is evident that the Kespa players are rapidly improving by the day. You're basing your evidence off MLG Dallas which was played in early November 2012. Kespa pro's we're still doing the hybrid proleague (50% Brood War, 50% SC2) up until August. The Kespa players didn't start practicing SC2 100% until September. So if you want to have an argument over the subject, I suggest you wait at least six months after HotS release. The game will then been restarted and we will truly see who is the best of the best when everybody is put on the same page. Leenock, Life, and Parting you say are on the top but the statistics shows that every last one of them have losses to Kespa players.
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On January 17 2013 08:37 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 08:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:On January 17 2013 08:26 Emzeeshady wrote:On January 17 2013 08:05 BlazeFury01 wrote:On January 17 2013 06:19 Emzeeshady wrote:
People seem to have this misconception that EGTL represents ESF. The only two Code S players on EGTL are Taeja and Stephano who are almost undoubtably the best players on the team. With the exception of Stephano's ZvZ the top tier Kespa players are probably at Stephano and Taeja's level roughly.
Fact is though they do not even touch the upper echolon of ESF Code S players. Life, Leenock, Creator, Hyun, Gumiho (this is gunna be his season), and Parting are all better then pretty much every single Kespa player and by no minor margin. There is a reason that there are so few Kespa players in Code S when so many have tried. I am not denying that Kespa players have potential but a lot of them (especially Flash, Jaedong and Bisu) are no where NEAR where people think they are (ok, maybe people know Bisu is garbage).
We will have to wait and see. HOTS brings a new challenge and I expect a new order brought in. What this will consist of? We will just have to wait and see. Most people see ESF as generic term that describes any player or team that has played the game prior to Kespas entrance. Much in a way like we use the word "foreigner" to describe everybody outside Korea. You don't have enough supporting evidence to make that claim. Also, keep in mind that those players also started more than 2 years ago. 2 year old builds are still viable in this game -- so what does that tell you? I don't really think I need supporting evidence (although I think I could prove Parting, Life and Leenock are on top pretty easily). I have played and watched this game for over and year now and I have developed into a good player and observer. I have enough knowledge of this game to know that although Free all killed yesterday he show inferior level of play to Creator in IPL Fight Club (just one example). Free's accomplishment is more impressive but Creator proved to me he is the better player right now. Another example of results vs performance is Flash vs Life at MLG. Flash goes up 2-0 in the series but in all 6 games they played he only showed superior gameplay in 1 out of those 6 games and was destroyed in most of them. That series proved to me how wide the skill gap is between those two players despite it seeming somewhat close. Tbh Flash shouldn't have won any games considering how long Life has played the game and the fact that Life won the GSL at that time and also ended up being the winner of that MLG. The fact that Flash did win the first set without the level of knowledge that Life posses from experience is evident that the Kespa players are rapidly improving by the day. You're basing your evidence off MLG Dallas which was played in early November 2012. Kespa pro's we're still doing the hybrid proleague (50% Brood War, 50% SC2) up until August. The Kespa players didn't start practicing SC2 100% until September. So if you want to have an argument over the subject, I suggest you wait at least six months after HotS release. The game will then been restarted and we will truly see who is the best of the best when everybody is put on the same page. Lmfao Nice reading comprehension
Well, you're just giving me an "opinion" with no supporting evidence. And the evidence you gave me was two months after the Hybrid pro league lol
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EPT
