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On October 21 2012 17:07 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 16:50 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 21 2012 16:40 FakeDeath wrote:On October 21 2012 16:09 scypio wrote:On October 21 2012 10:15 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 21 2012 10:02 neutralrobot wrote:
I think I was a bit disappointed by this finals because I liked Life's playstyle in other matches I'd seen, and these games were comparatively tame. Nothing on the skill of the players, but I thought these games were a bit of a snooze to watch. That was Mvp's entire plan. I think that is pretty understandable. If the zerg can hold off anything the terran throws at him with the same ling/queen/infestor composition it is reasonable to focus on a single playstyle and get as good at it as possible. There were so many different things happening in the MVP vs Squirtle finals. We had early base trade, a couple of macro games (at least one of them featuring superb drop play), a scary siege on Dual Sight with Squirtle counterattacking into MVP's nat and defending at the same time, epic air battle on Metropolis and the cheesy nailbiter in the G7. Watching MVP vs Life was all about "can MVP keep his drones killed / hellions lost ratio at 2.5+ for the first 12 minutes of the game?". It's just not exciting. Yeah, it takes a lot of skill to defend with lings and drones and remain cost-efficient etc. Balancing a ping-pong ball on the top of a 10-feet pole also takes a lot of skill, still I would not watch that for 2 hours. If you want to blame someone,blame MVP. He never tried anything other than mech for all the games. No Pure Bio No Standard Marine/Tank. That's why the game seems boring because there was no variety of play. Marine/tank doesnt work that well against Life's style. Pure bio is even worse. MVP had to play a different style against Life, which also forced Life into a different style himself. I do wonder if maybe hellion/ghost would be an effective playstyle against Life though. He basically never makes banelings and relies heavily on infestors. Meanwhile, hellion/ghost could also allow you to still use marauders in the event of a roach switch. I am not sure though. MKP did beat Life in Game 1 of Ro8 using Pure Bio using great splitting and sniping Infestor using Marauders. With great splitting to counter the effectiveness of Fungals and Marauder to snipe Infestors and also to force banelings and lessen production of Infestors. Isn't Pure Bio/Medivacs good against what Life was using if you do it well?
Life didnt have infestors out until 15 minutes and was competing against MKP with 3 base vs 3 base. He also went with an early-ish ling/bling bust that traded armies but didnt take out the 3rd. When MKP became aggressive, Life only had 5 infestors with only enough energy for 1 fungal each. Had Life gone for his usual style, he wouldnt have wasted all that gas on banelings and wouldve been ahead on upgrades with earlier infestors and more of them.
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should just built nothing but scvs and mules until receive buffs.
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On October 21 2012 17:07 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 16:50 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 21 2012 16:40 FakeDeath wrote:On October 21 2012 16:09 scypio wrote:On October 21 2012 10:15 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 21 2012 10:02 neutralrobot wrote:
I think I was a bit disappointed by this finals because I liked Life's playstyle in other matches I'd seen, and these games were comparatively tame. Nothing on the skill of the players, but I thought these games were a bit of a snooze to watch. That was Mvp's entire plan. I think that is pretty understandable. If the zerg can hold off anything the terran throws at him with the same ling/queen/infestor composition it is reasonable to focus on a single playstyle and get as good at it as possible. There were so many different things happening in the MVP vs Squirtle finals. We had early base trade, a couple of macro games (at least one of them featuring superb drop play), a scary siege on Dual Sight with Squirtle counterattacking into MVP's nat and defending at the same time, epic air battle on Metropolis and the cheesy nailbiter in the G7. Watching MVP vs Life was all about "can MVP keep his drones killed / hellions lost ratio at 2.5+ for the first 12 minutes of the game?". It's just not exciting. Yeah, it takes a lot of skill to defend with lings and drones and remain cost-efficient etc. Balancing a ping-pong ball on the top of a 10-feet pole also takes a lot of skill, still I would not watch that for 2 hours. If you want to blame someone,blame MVP. He never tried anything other than mech for all the games. No Pure Bio No Standard Marine/Tank. That's why the game seems boring because there was no variety of play. Marine/tank doesnt work that well against Life's style. Pure bio is even worse. MVP had to play a different style against Life, which also forced Life into a different style himself. I do wonder if maybe hellion/ghost would be an effective playstyle against Life though. He basically never makes banelings and relies heavily on infestors. Meanwhile, hellion/ghost could also allow you to still use marauders in the event of a roach switch. I am not sure though. MKP did beat Life in Game 1 of Ro8 using Pure Bio.
So Taeja and MKP went 1-6 using bio/bio mech and Mvp went 3-4 using mech only. And somehow we are questioning Mvp's decision?
I think we have to understand that different compositions have various 'power curves' depending on the skill of the player. That is one reason why we see meta game shifts.
Let take the example of ling bling muta vs marine tank. This use to be the go to builds for ZvT. Why did it change to infestor? Of course, one reason was that infestors are a good unit. Another reason is that terran players got to a level where they can defend vs muta and split vs blings. Why is Life (and other zergs) now able to use it effectively again? Because their bling lings control has gotten good enough to counteract the tanks and splits. What can terrans do? Try to counter with mech. Or maybe rise up another level on their marine/tank.
I don't like use APM as skills but it might be easier to illustrate
bling ling muta > marine tank @ < 250 APM
bling ling muta < marine tank @ 250 to 350 APM
bling ling muta > marine tank @ 350 to XXX APM
bling ling muta < marine tank @ > XXX APM
This happened in BW as well. But in BW, some of the 'balancing' could be done with maps whereas maps features in SC2 doesn't affect the game as much compare to BW.
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On October 21 2012 16:40 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 16:09 scypio wrote:
I think that is pretty understandable. If the zerg can hold off anything the terran throws at him with the same ling/queen/infestor composition it is reasonable to focus on a single playstyle and get as good at it as possible.
There were so many different things happening in the MVP vs Squirtle finals. We had early base trade, a couple of macro games (at least one of them featuring superb drop play), a scary siege on Dual Sight with Squirtle counterattacking into MVP's nat and defending at the same time, epic air battle on Metropolis and the cheesy nailbiter in the G7.
Watching MVP vs Life was all about "can MVP keep his drones killed / hellions lost ratio at 2.5+ for the first 12 minutes of the game?". It's just not exciting.
Yeah, it takes a lot of skill to defend with lings and drones and remain cost-efficient etc. Balancing a ping-pong ball on the top of a 10-feet pole also takes a lot of skill, still I would not watch that for 2 hours. If you want to blame someone,blame MVP. He never tried anything other than mech for all the games. No Pure Bio No Standard Marine/Tank. That's why the game seems boring because there was no variety of play.
MVP did the right thing for him, that is he focused on a single composition and tried to grind that to perfection. He failed to roll Life over, still it was close. I think it he would do worse if he had practiced three different playstyles.
I'd rather take 4:3 mech then 4:0 mech/bio/biotank finals and I think that would be likely if MVP tried to mix things up.
Zerg only needs one defensive composition (queen/ling/infestor) it works against anything terrans throws at them. They always have their finger on the trigger and can go attack at any given point, off 20-30 drones, 2 or 3 hatch etc. The question what happens if they do pull the trigger early.
So many times have I seen pro zergs making 13-ish roaches early into the game just to walk them across the map FTW. Life is so much better than that with his great T1/T2 unit control. He fuses the strengths of the patchzergs and the retro zergs in a manner that makes him... a GSL champion. And we've seen this work before, see Vortix's run at IEM Cologne for example.
Well played, I do appreciate the skills both players showcased in the series and MVP's decisions, still - the viewer experience was lacking.
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Love the new 15 year old zerg. nuff said!!
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I still dont see how the games were dull. The most dull moments were when Life was forced (and I do mean forced, he was likely to lose if he didnt) to use stall tactics using Infestors just long enough to get BL's. Honestly though, the games are just never enough. MVP vs squirtle? OMG MVP CHEESED, GAMES SO BAD.
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On October 21 2012 17:40 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I still dont see how the games were dull. The most dull moments were when Life was forced (and I do mean forced, he was likely to lose if he didnt) to use stall tactics using Infestors just long enough to get BL's. Honestly though, the games are just never enough.
Some people do enjoy variety in SC2 and some apparently don't need it. Go watch 50 PvZs in a row 
MVP vs squirtle? OMG MVP CHEESED, GAMES SO BAD.
Stop trolling.
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On October 21 2012 17:58 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 17:40 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I still dont see how the games were dull. The most dull moments were when Life was forced (and I do mean forced, he was likely to lose if he didnt) to use stall tactics using Infestors just long enough to get BL's. Honestly though, the games are just never enough.
Some people do enjoy variety in SC2 and some apparently don't need it. Go watch 50 PvZs in a row
The GSL finals frequently boils down to just a couple really refined builds. If you cant handle a BO7 with 2 builds, you are watching the wrong game. Imagine if things worked how MVP hoped and it was a 4-0 instead of a 4-3, he had 2 builds for 4 games and nobody wouldve complained.
I am just saying that people will complain no matter what.
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On October 21 2012 18:04 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +Some people do enjoy variety in SC2 and some apparently don't need it. Go watch 50 PvZs in a row The GSL finals frequently boils down to just a couple really refined builds. If you cant handle a BO7 with 2 builds, you are watching the wrong game. Imagine if things worked how MVP hoped and it was a 4-0 instead of a 4-3, he had 2 builds for 4 games and nobody wouldve complained.
4:0 finals is not a good thing either. I've watched quite a few GSL finals and they should come in with a sticker saying "user experience may vary". If the refinement does the cut - well, good for you. There are GSL finals I've enjoyed more and I hope they will get better in S5. For me variety + refinement >>>> refinement.
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United States15275 Posts
On October 21 2012 16:09 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 10:15 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 21 2012 10:02 neutralrobot wrote:
I think I was a bit disappointed by this finals because I liked Life's playstyle in other matches I'd seen, and these games were comparatively tame. Nothing on the skill of the players, but I thought these games were a bit of a snooze to watch. That was Mvp's entire plan. I think that is pretty understandable. If the zerg can hold off anything the terran throws at him with the same ling/queen/infestor composition it is reasonable to focus on a single playstyle and get as good at it as possible. There were so many different things happening in the MVP vs Squirtle finals. We had early base trade, a couple of macro games (at least one of them featuring superb drop play), a scary siege on Dual Sight with Squirtle counterattacking into MVP's nat and defending at the same time, epic air battle on Metropolis and the cheesy nailbiter in the G7. Watching MVP vs Life was all about "can MVP keep his drones killed / hellions lost ratio at 2.5+ for the first 12 minutes of the game?". It's just not exciting. Yeah, it takes a lot of skill to defend with lings and drones and remain cost-efficient etc. Balancing a ping-pong ball on the top of a 10-feet pole also takes a lot of skill, still I would not watch that for 2 hours.
Finals weren't entertaining from a strategy perspective (quite boring in fact), but they were from a tactical perspective.
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EPT
