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On October 14 2012 22:08 iKill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 22:03 lolmlg wrote:On October 14 2012 21:53 X3GoldDot wrote:On October 14 2012 21:51 vthree wrote:On October 14 2012 21:44 lolmlg wrote:On October 14 2012 21:26 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
Looking at his PvZ and PvP ability that he has demonstrated recently, I would honestly call him the favourite in both OSL and WCS Grand Finals. I'm not a big Bison fan or whatever, but I had a thought about this. A lot of people are trying to say that MVP will be the SC2 bonjwa if he wins the current GSL season, because he will have won five championships. Putting aside that it's an arbitrary number, bonjwa never had anything to do with numbers of championships. It was meant to describe a player that stood head and shoulders above the competition and dominated the game for a period of time. Nobody was comfortable calling Flash a bonjwa when he was constantly having a close series with Jaedong, because it cast doubt on the idea that he was dominant. Later on people called him "God" but Jaedong had to enter a brutal slump first. MVP crashed out of the OSL during the group stages. His GSL semi-final series against Rain, which he narrowly won, occurred a single day after Rain's semi-final series against Last in the OSL, which Rain won. Rain's won WCS Asia and he could win the OSL. If he continues to post results in the near future, I don't think it will matter what MVP does. Because "bonjwa" isn't about being good, it's about being the only player on your level. If MVP versus Rain continues to be a nailbiter, MVP isn't a bonjwa. But who knows, they may never meet in a tournament again. Don't thing we should get too caught up with the term bonjwa. It was only created to describe one person. All the other 'bonjwas' were bestowed the title retrospectively. didnt it originally come from julyzerg or something It described Savior but it's really too late to get uptight about it, it's been applied to lots of people and there isn't much reason why it shouldn't be if the circumstances are right. On October 14 2012 21:50 Dodgin wrote:
I don't think It's fair to say " Mvp crashed out of the OSL in the group stages " the games were bo1 and he went 1-2, single elimination best of five Mvp is a completely different monster, I believe someone posted the stats on his record in bo5's and bo7's and it was something like 85% set winrate.
not gonna comment on the bonjwa stuff, cause It's silly.
Consider that if the GSL semi finals were bo1's or even bo3's Rain would have advanced instead of Mvp, or that if the OSL Semi Finals were bo5 instead of bo7 Last would have 3-0'd Rain. Round robin is not "best of one". And you can't just subtract games from a series and say that another player would have won. But my point was at least related to what you've written at the bottom of your post. What if Rain versus MVP had been a best of seven? The answer is an emphatic "who knows?", right? As long as it's "who knows?" then the bonjwa people have a problem. I still don't understand why the bonjwa crowd is in such a hurry to crown Mvp bonjwa. I mean, bonjwa is not a medal of honor, it is a title. You're not a good player because you're named bonjwa, you're a bonjwa because you're a good player. Everyone already knows Mvp is a god, so why do we need to give him a completely arbitrary title to recognize that?
this is why I think the whole debate is silly, there's no reason to try to crown him a title that was not created for this player never mind this game, brood war is different.
just make up a new title or go with " most-accomplished-and-greatest-starcraft-2-player-of-all-time-so-far "
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On October 14 2012 21:02 Laryleprakon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 21:00 MyFirstProbe wrote:On October 14 2012 20:58 X3GoldDot wrote:On October 14 2012 20:58 bri9and wrote:
Artosis just said something that I thought was pretty funny in reference to Rain going to the World Finals.. "he will see players like Stephano, Scarlett... "
Really? Scarlett? She is going to get Destroyed by these Koreans.. scarlett is better than youd think Maybe, but there are a lot of Koreans who are much better than her. This is what will make the finals so awesome, we will actually find out ^_^!
what will we find out?
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On October 14 2012 22:06 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 22:03 lolmlg wrote:
Round robin is not "best of one". And you can't just subtract games from a series and say that another player would have won. But my point was at least related to what you've written at the bottom of your post. What if Rain versus MVP had been a best of seven? The answer is an emphatic "who knows?", right? As long as it's "who knows?" then the bonjwa people have a problem. well, if last-rain was a bo5, then it would be last 3-0 rain imagine if inca-nestea was a bo9 instead of a bo7, and inca came back from 4-0 down to winning 5-4 - > there's always that question, unlikely though it may be. yeah it seems likelier for rain to come back against last after 3 games down than inca against nestea 4 games down, but that's all in hindsight ;p last's timing pushes worked for 3 games and not for the last 4 - what if inca's DTs didn't work for 4 games but did for the last 5? lolol
This post misses the point to such a degree that I can't really respond to it seriously. Sorry.
On October 14 2012 22:07 Dodgin wrote:
I'm not talking about that bonjwa term at all, you just shouldn't say someone " crashed " out of a league when they lost two bo1's, it's irrelevant if the format is dual tournament or round robin, the games are best of one, which is incredibly volatile. there's a reason GSL changed to bo3 group stages.
I mean, I might be wrong, but I don't think anyone actually cares that Mvp lost in OSL, because it was two bo1 TvP's.
If you don't actually care then why get so upset about it? When someone loses in the group stage of a tournament, I don't think it's unfair to say they crashed out of the tournament. It's an early stage. Best of three isn't exactly conclusive. And it's not as if MVP hasn't lost at an early stage of a tournament before.
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I guess we will just have to agree to disagree in that case !
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On October 14 2012 21:05 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 21:03 NovemberstOrm wrote:On October 14 2012 20:56 Mensol wrote:
Rain should win global finals easily. He is the most skilled starcraft 2 player i have ever watched. I think you're forgetting someone "cough" Mvp "cough" too bad Mvp couldn't be @ wcs to stomp Rain So MVP beating Sun 3-2 in a close series is considered stomping? People these day.....
60% winrate is superstrong, marineking is 59,5 alltime in sc2korea liquidpedia
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
out of random interest, lifetime % winrates for TLPD SC2 KR:
taeja 66%
mvp 64%
marineking 64%
sun 64%
drg 63%
creator 62%
bomber 61%
squirtle 60%
life 60%
i think this is everyone in SC2 KR TLPD who have winrates above 60% and more than 50 games played. surprisingly, not that many.
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yonghwa has 61.29%
#codeb-bonjwa
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On October 14 2012 22:34 opterown wrote:
out of random interest, lifetime % winrates for TLPD SC2 KR:
taeja 66%
mvp 64%
marineking 64%
sun 64%
drg 63%
creator 62%
bomber 61%
squirtle 60%
life 60%
i think this is everyone in SC2 KR TLPD who have winrates above 60% and more than 50 games played. surprisingly, not that many.
Interesting. Biggest surprise on that list for me is Bomber.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the creator-by.sun games way back were pretty silly. sun owned creator in game 1 then the rest are pretty lucky short games for creator.
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you're counting online tournaments and qualifiers? wat
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On October 14 2012 22:39 Dodgin wrote:you're counting online tournaments and qualifiers? wat
i did say lifetime record for all games in KR SC2 TLPD ;p
after all, the default TLPD has yonghwa's ESV and EWM results which are also online tourneys/qualifiers
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On October 14 2012 22:38 oneofthem wrote:
the creator-by.sun games way back were pretty silly. sun owned creator in game 1 then the rest are pretty lucky short games for creator.
+ Show Spoiler +
watch them again ;p they weren't lucky short games lol, it's just the nature of PvP
10:36 G1; G2 was 11:43 and G3 was 9:31, pretty even
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On October 14 2012 21:26 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 21:21 red4ce wrote:On October 14 2012 21:12 ElephantBaby wrote:On October 14 2012 21:04 FakeDeath wrote:On October 14 2012 21:01 InDesconrowl wrote:On October 14 2012 20:55 red4ce wrote:
Rain's coinflipping skills are something to behold. Can you stop saying pvp is a coinflip matchup? It is still a coinflip match-up. It really depends on who get the better build order. Just that Sun is so good at flipping coins. Everyone thought ZvZ in BW is completely coin flip before jaedong comes along. Jaedong completely changed everybody's mind, he can beat you with many build order disadvantages. ZvZ in BW is even worse than PvP in SC2 in this regard. By.sun is doing the same thing in SC2 now. People said the same thing when MC was dominating PvP. And then when Oz was dominating PvP. And then when Squirtle was dominating PvP. The new blood always has an advantage because they can study everyone else's style while themselves being overlooked. Once Rain's tricks are copied by the other protoss his PvP record will fall in line with everyone else's. Maybe it's just wishful thinking from someone like me who always desires consistency, but I have a gut feeling that the Bison will surpass the peaks of MC, Oz, Squirtle and Creator, in both PvP and in general really. SKT T1 coaching and practice aiding a very obvious talent... yeah. Looking at his PvZ and PvP ability that he has demonstrated recently, I would honestly call him the favourite in both OSL and WCS Grand Finals.
In before Rain loses in the WCS Grand Finals and in the OSL finals. This is the same sort of hero worship rain was getting before MVP showed him who is boss.
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Marineking doesn't have 60% if you don't include non ELO granting games, that's why you did that.
busted.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On October 14 2012 22:44 Dodgin wrote:
Marineking doesn't have 60% if you don't include non ELO granting games, that's why you did that.
busted.
same for a lot of other dudes too, i didn't do this to be biased =.=
the line that the TLPD dudes use for this is also very arbitrary; what makes a game worth more than others? maybe if only GSTL/GSL/OSL games were in TLPD then i agree, but taeja's is massively inflated with ESV (so is yonghwa's), and the KSL games aren't even consistently there or not (some are included, some aren't) etc. TSL4 quals are in standard league; what makes this different to MLG quals? There are also some online tourneys from waaayyy back that are included in ELO calcs. the only person who doesn't benefit really is sun haha
This is a somewhat fairer representation imo
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holy shit by.sun is really good lol
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EPT
