On September 09 2012 12:02 StarStruck wrote: Yeah it gets old.
They're fans of the players first and fans of the game second.
Sorry, but I guess you guys might have more fun watching special events than guys who are competing at the highest level.
Could TL have done more promoting and more stuff to help sell the players? Surely.
Some of these Koreans don't get the same opportunities as the rest of the players to showcase their stuff.
If you cannot find these games entertaining then I cannot help you.
Maybe it's time you move on and watch something else.
It has something to do with SC2 even played at a high level just not being that entertaining to watch.
That's why I need the so-called emotional involvement - I kind of need to have a personality I like playing so that I can cheer for them.
I really can't recall when I saw something amazingly entertaining in SC2 that made it entertaining to watch just for the sake of seeing it. The game just isn't designed to have things like that. Now we could compare it to DotA2 and the International and to me, at least, that was more entertaining to watch(even the non-top teams/games) than anything in Starcraft 2 has been for well over a year to me. And I'm guessing many people agree with me, because the viewer counts and player counts are decreasing.
They could have done some of those "Jaedong and Tossgirl having coffee" huge interviews that let you know more about the person but honestly I couldn't care less about either Creator or Life so even though TSL in the past has been my favorite tournament I didn't watch any of it past ro16.
Maybe next time TL needs to explicitly state that if you enter the tournament you are obligated to show up for the live finals should you make it that far (barring something unforeseen of course). I'm surprised this doesn't seem to have been the case already.
Well, I watched the finals, because I accidently just happened to be online at that time. But the semi's would have not brought me to tune in. Just random player names, so I just wasn't really drawn to that.
The weaknesses of this TSL (in decending order):
1) No live final! Even online Live would have been so much better. 2) Quite unknown players 3) An all korean final 4) HotS beta streams up at the same time (not TL fault - but it is just more interesting) 5) WoL losing a bit of steam. ZvP seems quite mapped out. Fast forward to the money vortex, or the epic vortex fail (even though I must admit lives steal of the mothership right at the end of the vortex was innovative)
That being said, I enjoyed watching the finals. Both players inpressed me and will be non-namers for me no longer.
On September 09 2012 23:58 testthewest wrote: Well, I watched the finals, because I accidently just happened to be online at that time. But the semi's would have not brought me to tune in. Just random player names, so I just wasn't really drawn to that.
The weaknesses of this TSL (in decending order):
1) No live final! Even online Live would have been so much better. 2) Quite unknown players 3) An all korean final 4) HotS beta streams up at the same time (not TL fault - but it is just more interesting) 5) WoL losing a bit of steam. ZvP seems quite mapped out. Fast forward to the money vortex, or the epic vortex fail (even though I must admit lives steal of the mothership right at the end of the vortex was innovative)
That being said, I enjoyed watching the finals. Both players inpressed me and will be non-namers for me no longer.
I would even argue the map scene getting stale is hindering Wings Of Liberty, and thus this tournament. Even "newer" maps like Daybreak are getting figured out, and there really isn't a good system in place to get new maps rotated in map pools. Even one new map every 2 - 3 months like ESVDiamond sort of wrote (he basically said tournaments should offer one map in a map pool that is new or different, too much at once leads to bad games or vetos) about would help Wings Of Liberty stay fresh. GSL's the best at this but most tournaments are content with staying on maps that at this point are pretty much figured out. Terran mech is being explored more on Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak but that's pretty much it.
On September 09 2012 23:58 testthewest wrote: Well, I watched the finals, because I accidently just happened to be online at that time. But the semi's would have not brought me to tune in. Just random player names, so I just wasn't really drawn to that.
The weaknesses of this TSL (in decending order):
1) No live final! Even online Live would have been so much better. 2) Quite unknown players 3) An all korean final 4) HotS beta streams up at the same time (not TL fault - but it is just more interesting) 5) WoL losing a bit of steam. ZvP seems quite mapped out. Fast forward to the money vortex, or the epic vortex fail (even though I must admit lives steal of the mothership right at the end of the vortex was innovative)
That being said, I enjoyed watching the finals. Both players inpressed me and will be non-namers for me no longer.
I would even argue the map scene getting stale is hindering Wings Of Liberty, and thus this tournament. Even "newer" maps like Daybreak are getting figured out, and there really isn't a good system in place to get new maps rotated in map pools. Even one new map every 2 - 3 months like ESVDiamond sort of wrote (he basically said tournaments should offer one map in a map pool that is new or different, too much at once leads to bad games or vetos) about would help Wings Of Liberty stay fresh. GSL's the best at this but most tournaments are content with staying on maps that at this point are pretty much figured out. Terran mech is being explored more on Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak but that's pretty much it.
Daybreak is actually extremely old at this point, I remember Mvp vs TOP from GSL August 2011 finals having an epic game on daybreak.
I agree with your main message though, getting new maps in our map pools and getting rid of old ones keeps the game fresh and we need to keep doing it. GSTL is doing great with new maps right now, they added two new ones for GSTL S3 + kept musphelheim which has only been played in GSTL S2 as far as I know.
On September 09 2012 23:58 testthewest wrote: Well, I watched the finals, because I accidently just happened to be online at that time. But the semi's would have not brought me to tune in. Just random player names, so I just wasn't really drawn to that.
The weaknesses of this TSL (in decending order):
1) No live final! Even online Live would have been so much better. 2) Quite unknown players 3) An all korean final 4) HotS beta streams up at the same time (not TL fault - but it is just more interesting) 5) WoL losing a bit of steam. ZvP seems quite mapped out. Fast forward to the money vortex, or the epic vortex fail (even though I must admit lives steal of the mothership right at the end of the vortex was innovative)
That being said, I enjoyed watching the finals. Both players inpressed me and will be non-namers for me no longer.
If Creator and Life are unknown then you must not follow Starcraft in the first place.
I think one of the biggest things for this tsl compared to the last was i did not feel the same passion from the casters as i did last tsl. The casters during last tsl seemed genuinely excited about all the matches. I didn't sense the same passion this time around. I'm not saying they did a bad job casting, I just feel like they didn't have the same excitement to convey while casting.
On September 10 2012 03:30 ReachTheSky wrote: I think one of the biggest things for this tsl compared to the last was i did not feel the same passion from the casters as i did last tsl. The casters during last tsl seemed genuinely excited about all the matches. I didn't sense the same passion this time around. I'm not saying they did a bad job casting, I just feel like they didn't have the same excitement to convey while casting.
I agree with this, thinking back to mc vs thorzain on taldarim and thorzain vs naniwa on taldarim, the casting there brought so much hype
listen to this, from this point to the end, you will get hyped no matter what
The problem is there's just too many fucking tournaments around.
Every second day you open up TL, the sidebar is full of random cups and stuff...there's so much money thrown at SC2 that it hurts my head. Imagine if TSL4 or any major tournament would be only once every 6 months, there would be a lot more people watching. Bunch of pros streaming doesn't help much either, sure you get to see them play first hand and it's fun for a month but then it' gets boring.
WOW, Flash is streaming!!!!! ... after 2 months, oh look JD, Flash, Bisu are streaming how exciting..not!
It's like SC2 is too accessible as a spectator or something, never could imagine it would be a bad thing. But in terms of hype/viewers it kind of is. Even WCS as it will be a yearly event it seems, won't bring in as much interest because there's bunch of tournaments splattered all over the calender.
TSL2 was incredible because you didn't really have a bunch of foreigners duke it out every month, and it had an insane prize pool for that point in time.
I dislike the whole "foreigner vs korea" story a lot as well, I just wanna see the best play it out..but I can totally understand the support foreigners get.
On September 09 2012 23:58 testthewest wrote: Well, I watched the finals, because I accidently just happened to be online at that time. But the semi's would have not brought me to tune in. Just random player names, so I just wasn't really drawn to that.
The weaknesses of this TSL (in decending order):
1) No live final! Even online Live would have been so much better. 2) Quite unknown players 3) An all korean final 4) HotS beta streams up at the same time (not TL fault - but it is just more interesting) 5) WoL losing a bit of steam. ZvP seems quite mapped out. Fast forward to the money vortex, or the epic vortex fail (even though I must admit lives steal of the mothership right at the end of the vortex was innovative)
That being said, I enjoyed watching the finals. Both players inpressed me and will be non-namers for me no longer.
I would even argue the map scene getting stale is hindering Wings Of Liberty, and thus this tournament. Even "newer" maps like Daybreak are getting figured out, and there really isn't a good system in place to get new maps rotated in map pools. Even one new map every 2 - 3 months like ESVDiamond sort of wrote (he basically said tournaments should offer one map in a map pool that is new or different, too much at once leads to bad games or vetos) about would help Wings Of Liberty stay fresh. GSL's the best at this but most tournaments are content with staying on maps that at this point are pretty much figured out. Terran mech is being explored more on Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak but that's pretty much it.
Daybreak is actually extremely old at this point, I remember Mvp vs TOP from GSL August 2011 finals having an epic game on daybreak.
I agree with your main message though, getting new maps in our map pools and getting rid of old ones keeps the game fresh and we need to keep doing it. GSTL is doing great with new maps right now, they added two new ones for GSTL S3 + kept musphelheim which has only been played in GSTL S2 as far as I know.
Yeah I completely agree - I say "newer" only because foreign tournaments and the Blizzard ladder took quite a long time to add the map after it debuted. Cloud Kingdom is now ten months old (TL thread was made in November 2011) but foreign tournaments aside from ESVTV have probably only been playing it since February/March IIRC (MLG didn't use it until April 20th for Spring Arena I).
I know this is sort of getting off topic now so sorry about that - the state of map pools needs to be talked about more, though over all TSL4 did nicely with 6 instead of the usual 7 - 9 maps.
Map pools are what will keep SC2, no matter what expansion - going in the long term, after its production cycle is finished. It's important that map cycles begin to get more attention and streamlined.
On September 09 2012 12:02 StarStruck wrote: Yeah it gets old.
They're fans of the players first and fans of the game second.
Sorry, but I guess you guys might have more fun watching special events than guys who are competing at the highest level.
Could TL have done more promoting and more stuff to help sell the players? Surely.
Some of these Koreans don't get the same opportunities as the rest of the players to showcase their stuff.
If you cannot find these games entertaining then I cannot help you.
Maybe it's time you move on and watch something else.
It has something to do with SC2 even played at a high level just not being that entertaining to watch.
That's why I need the so-called emotional involvement - I kind of need to have a personality I like playing so that I can cheer for them.
I really can't recall when I saw something amazingly entertaining in SC2 that made it entertaining to watch just for the sake of seeing it. The game just isn't designed to have things like that. Now we could compare it to DotA2 and the International and to me, at least, that was more entertaining to watch(even the non-top teams/games) than anything in Starcraft 2 has been for well over a year to me. And I'm guessing many people agree with me, because the viewer counts and player counts are decreasing.
They could have done some of those "Jaedong and Tossgirl having coffee" huge interviews that let you know more about the person but honestly I couldn't care less about either Creator or Life so even though TSL in the past has been my favorite tournament I didn't watch any of it past ro16.
In other words you're bored of the game. That's when you know you need to take a break because everything seems so mundane and you lost that wow factor. It happens and it's only natural. You've got your fill.
Depends on how much DotA2 you've been watching at the same time and it fills that empty hole. Doesn't hurt having casters who call the game in the present moment like Tobi.
Let's see how HotS shapes up and how long a lasting appeal that will have on you.
TSL1 and 2 was an easy sell. TSL3 was an easy sell as well, but now since there are so many tournaments you definitely have to take it up a notch each tournament, which TL obviously did not and they sold it short.
As for your last line: let the numbers speak for themselves instead of moaning and groaning about having nothing to cheer for and if the game has bored you to the point that you can only cheer for certain players then like I said. Perhaps a break from the game is in order and you can watch/play stuff like DotA2.
On September 09 2012 23:58 testthewest wrote: Well, I watched the finals, because I accidently just happened to be online at that time. But the semi's would have not brought me to tune in. Just random player names, so I just wasn't really drawn to that.
The weaknesses of this TSL (in decending order):
1) No live final! Even online Live would have been so much better. 2) Quite unknown players 3) An all korean final 4) HotS beta streams up at the same time (not TL fault - but it is just more interesting) 5) WoL losing a bit of steam. ZvP seems quite mapped out. Fast forward to the money vortex, or the epic vortex fail (even though I must admit lives steal of the mothership right at the end of the vortex was innovative)
That being said, I enjoyed watching the finals. Both players inpressed me and will be non-namers for me no longer.
If Creator and Life are unknown then you must not follow Starcraft in the first place.
There's tons of people that rarely watch the GSL. Creator and Life are pretty unknown players to the foreigner scene. Every1 has heard their names around, but only people that watch the GSL will actually know them and be interested in them.
On September 09 2012 12:02 StarStruck wrote: Yeah it gets old.
They're fans of the players first and fans of the game second.
Sorry, but I guess you guys might have more fun watching special events than guys who are competing at the highest level.
Could TL have done more promoting and more stuff to help sell the players? Surely.
Some of these Koreans don't get the same opportunities as the rest of the players to showcase their stuff.
If you cannot find these games entertaining then I cannot help you.
Maybe it's time you move on and watch something else.
It has something to do with SC2 even played at a high level just not being that entertaining to watch.
That's why I need the so-called emotional involvement - I kind of need to have a personality I like playing so that I can cheer for them.
I really can't recall when I saw something amazingly entertaining in SC2 that made it entertaining to watch just for the sake of seeing it. The game just isn't designed to have things like that. Now we could compare it to DotA2 and the International and to me, at least, that was more entertaining to watch(even the non-top teams/games) than anything in Starcraft 2 has been for well over a year to me. And I'm guessing many people agree with me, because the viewer counts and player counts are decreasing.
They could have done some of those "Jaedong and Tossgirl having coffee" huge interviews that let you know more about the person but honestly I couldn't care less about either Creator or Life so even though TSL in the past has been my favorite tournament I didn't watch any of it past ro16.
Speak for yourself. Outside of my favorites from BW all of my favorite players to follow are ones that I became a fan of simply by watching their games. Stephano, TLO, Taeja, Jjakji, Squirtle, Parting, MMA, Supernova, etc. These are all players that genuinely entertained me through their games alone.
If a semifinals consisted of Naniwa, Parting, Destiny and Polt I would be pulling for a Parting/Polt final because I know it is likely going to be an insane PvT series.
On September 09 2012 12:02 StarStruck wrote: Yeah it gets old.
They're fans of the players first and fans of the game second.
Sorry, but I guess you guys might have more fun watching special events than guys who are competing at the highest level.
Could TL have done more promoting and more stuff to help sell the players? Surely.
Some of these Koreans don't get the same opportunities as the rest of the players to showcase their stuff.
If you cannot find these games entertaining then I cannot help you.
Maybe it's time you move on and watch something else.
It has something to do with SC2 even played at a high level just not being that entertaining to watch.
That's why I need the so-called emotional involvement - I kind of need to have a personality I like playing so that I can cheer for them.
I really can't recall when I saw something amazingly entertaining in SC2 that made it entertaining to watch just for the sake of seeing it. The game just isn't designed to have things like that. Now we could compare it to DotA2 and the International and to me, at least, that was more entertaining to watch(even the non-top teams/games) than anything in Starcraft 2 has been for well over a year to me. And I'm guessing many people agree with me, because the viewer counts and player counts are decreasing.
They could have done some of those "Jaedong and Tossgirl having coffee" huge interviews that let you know more about the person but honestly I couldn't care less about either Creator or Life so even though TSL in the past has been my favorite tournament I didn't watch any of it past ro16.
Speak for yourself. Outside of my favorites from BW all of my favorite players to follow are ones that I became a fan of simply by watching their games. Stephano, TLO, Taeja, Jjakji, Squirtle, Parting, MMA, Supernova, etc. These are all players that genuinely entertained me through their games alone.
If a semifinals consisted of Naniwa, Parting, Destiny and Polt I would be pulling for a Parting/Polt final because I know it is likely going to be an insane PvT series.
Yeah I see and understand that last part, Though way more people would be pulling for destiny to make it through of even having destiny taking games of Polt or Parting would make drama in itself. If the past has taught us anything it is that Drama is a Huge driving force for viewers in eSports. Shit pulling 7 probes at the beginning of the game crashed TL nothing even close to that happened during any TSL4 games. We can't really blame TL staff for that either players have to produce exciting games and that just didn't happen this time around.
I think there's way too much starcraft these days that TSL4 inevitably lost some of its prestige tbh I tuned in only for the last game of the final and didn't even realize the final was that day; there's a big tour every weekend so I feel like I'm not really missing anything... T_T;
On September 09 2012 23:58 testthewest wrote: Well, I watched the finals, because I accidently just happened to be online at that time. But the semi's would have not brought me to tune in. Just random player names, so I just wasn't really drawn to that.
The weaknesses of this TSL (in decending order):
1) No live final! Even online Live would have been so much better. 2) Quite unknown players 3) An all korean final 4) HotS beta streams up at the same time (not TL fault - but it is just more interesting) 5) WoL losing a bit of steam. ZvP seems quite mapped out. Fast forward to the money vortex, or the epic vortex fail (even though I must admit lives steal of the mothership right at the end of the vortex was innovative)
That being said, I enjoyed watching the finals. Both players inpressed me and will be non-namers for me no longer.
If Creator and Life are unknown then you must not follow Starcraft in the first place.
And how is this line of thought any more productive than people being biased towards Korean-dominated tourneys is? ... yeah. It's not. The casual demographic's viewing habits and preferences are just as important as "person who follows Starcraft".
All arguments for why TSL4 is the weakest TSL, let alone one of the weakest tourney's among MLG, IPL, DH, GSL, GSTL, OSL (I think WCG is about just as personality'less as it can get) can't really be debated because it's such a prevalent feeling felt by lots of TL fans.
I didn't even watch the finals. Did I really miss some amazing storyline or crazy back-and-forth game or innovative gameplay that I just HAD to tune in for? From what I've read in these threads, I didn't miss anything special at all. I might watch VODs on Youtube when they come up (I think they up now), but I don't feel like I missed anything at all. Hell, the game wasn't even live from what I've read. Any spectator knows there is some inherent attachment in watching events "live," even if they don't know the difference. That's a whole nother can of worms. Good day.
On September 09 2012 07:33 Canucklehead wrote: It's a different tournament climate today. There are so many on and offline tournaments today that tsl is just one of many. The mystique of korean vs foreigner of last TSL is gone too since that happens all the time now. I don't think a thorzain/naniwa tsl 4 finals would draw 50k today.
No two foreigners playing would, regardless of who they are. But you put Stephano or Idra up against MVP. or MKP and you would draw around 50k in the right setting.
On September 09 2012 07:33 Canucklehead wrote: It's a different tournament climate today. There are so many on and offline tournaments today that tsl is just one of many. The mystique of korean vs foreigner of last TSL is gone too since that happens all the time now. I don't think a thorzain/naniwa tsl 4 finals would draw 50k today.
No two foreigners playing would, regardless of who they are. But you put Stephano or Idra up against MVP. or MKP and you would draw around 50k in the right setting.
But what does that mean for us? That players who are fan favorites should be seeded into the TSL not regarding their current performance? I do wanna see the best players playing and winning the TSL and no "sorry you korean guys are too good" tournament. It was different in TSL 1&2, as the skill gap in broodwar was like the grand canyon compared to the sc2 skill gap.
For me it is enough to divide the spots by doing an KR, EU and US Qualifier. I personally really favor White Ra. I love his personality, his playstyle etc. But i wouldnt wanna see him in TSL if he didnt deserve the spot so im not dissapointed. Every big name in the foreign and korean scene had the chance to qualify for the TSL, so i dont mind not to see Stephano, IdrA or MC, MVP, DRG
It means that the big names (MLG, IPL, TL and so on). Should stop investing that much in big tournemants, and starting investing way more in local scenes. You can't have a scene in which you either make it super big as a foreigner (Idra, Stephano, Nerchio, Mana and so on), from the money-making aspect at least, or you don't make enough to justify the time you're spending on the game. If there are four MLG championships a year, with 76K in each of them, while foreigners only make around 10K of that each year, wouldn't it be more profitable for them to have less big tournemants, and more small, local lans? (maybe not short term though).
EPT
