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wow what kind of guy is Reality?
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On August 09 2012 03:09 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 02:53 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:43 fraktoasters wrote:On August 09 2012 02:35 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:28 Whatson wrote:On August 09 2012 02:25 ]343[ wrote:
Huh, I think people are failing to recall how much lower the skill level was when the article was written... Did the writer of the article really not put into consideration the potential for the SC2 players to get better...it's not like they wouldn't improve. I think the intent was to comment on what was the current state of SC2 play at that time. The article doesn't really talk about the future beyond "If Kespa players all change over NOW..." I'm not sure what you're quoting. "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment" I worded that poorly, as it was not a quote. I was just highlighting that the article doesn't say anything about the future, just (what was) the present. Even at the time this article was written it wasn't true. The article argues, that because the SC2 players had bad performances in BW (which they played until 2010), the players with better performances in BW would also be much better in SC2. Reality is a player with little/nothing to show until the release of SC2 (4 games all lost). Now he does really well in SC2. He is basically what any of the GSL players could have been if he stayed with Kespa and only now switched over. Some players have been bad at BW and good at SC2, some bad at both, some good at both and some were good at BW and are bad at SC2. GSL players will not continue to dominate the Kespa players forever, but the Kespa players will not dominate the GSL players either.
What? I have no idea why you think  Reality had little/nothing to show until the release of SC2. Take a look at his TLPD page. He's qualified for individual leagues before, and was an A-teamer and regular in SPL, which is a very different situation from that of most GSL players.
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On August 09 2012 03:43 ShiroKaisen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 03:26 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 03:04 nokz88 wrote:On August 09 2012 02:35 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:28 Whatson wrote:On August 09 2012 02:25 ]343[ wrote:
Huh, I think people are failing to recall how much lower the skill level was when the article was written... Did the writer of the article really not put into consideration the potential for the SC2 players to get better...it's not like they wouldn't improve. I think the intent was to comment on what was the current state of SC2 play at that time. The article doesn't really talk about the future beyond "If Kespa players all change over NOW..." The intent was to question the skill (then or potential) of then-best SC2 players, and thus the validity of a scene dominated by them. By showing their awful records in BW, it downplays the players themselves, not their current skill or whatever, not accounting for that they are now in a whole 'nother ballpark. It's a huge middle finger for SC2. It's the rallying point for BW elitists. It's a shame that more than a year after that piece of crap was written, people still are waiting for the things it predicted, like Christians waiting for the judgement day, to shove their disdain in SC2 fans' faces. Of course it was a huge middle finger to the entire SC2 scene. It was also unnecessarily inflammatory and condescending, and pretty surprising to be published as a feature article. It's also been disproved by every BW player that changed over after the article was written, and continues to be disproved now in WCS, WCG, and every other tournament Kespa players go against GSL players. The problem with claiming it was "disproved" is that every KeSPA player who's switched so far hasn't remained on a KeSPA team. The KeSPA pro-house environment and practice and coaching is so far above even what the eSF teams do. fOrGG practicing alone or in the oGs house is a Code S player. fOrGG practicing in the KT Rolster house is an MSL champion.
In the Hwaseung OZ house yo.
The problem for the current sc2 guys is that a bunch of people (like 15-20 guys) who were way better than MVP and zergbong at every aspect of a very similar game (multi tasking, making build orders, micro, macro, game sens...) are going to swich over. After hots, I don't see any GSL players among top 10 anymore, maybe among top 20.
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On August 09 2012 06:01 sOda~ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 09 2012 03:04 nokz88 wrote:On August 09 2012 02:35 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:28 Whatson wrote:On August 09 2012 02:25 ]343[ wrote:
Huh, I think people are failing to recall how much lower the skill level was when the article was written... Did the writer of the article really not put into consideration the potential for the SC2 players to get better...it's not like they wouldn't improve. I think the intent was to comment on what was the current state of SC2 play at that time. The article doesn't really talk about the future beyond "If Kespa players all change over NOW..." The intent was to question the skill (then or potential) of then-best SC2 players, and thus the validity of a scene dominated by them. By showing their awful records in BW, it downplays the players themselves, not their current skill or whatever, not accounting for that they are now in a whole 'nother ballpark. It's a huge middle finger for SC2. It's the rallying point for BW elitists. It's a shame that more than a year after that piece of crap was written, people still are waiting for the things it predicted, like Christians waiting for the judgement day, to shove their disdain in SC2 fans' faces. You're upset because one insulting article was written. The BW community is upset because SC2 killed our game and denied us the chance of ever seeing it on a pro-stage again. it died cos the game was old as fuck, if sc2 wasnt around youd just as likely be watching LoL
You are so fucking wrong and it's people like you that make new school gaming scenes fucking awful. You have no idea what it's like to love a game for its quality.
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On August 09 2012 06:05 Elroi wrote:
In the Hwaseung OZ house yo.
Can't think of the Hwaseung OZ house without this immediately coming to mind.
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On August 09 2012 06:22 ShrieK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:01 sOda~ wrote:On August 09 2012 05:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 09 2012 03:04 nokz88 wrote:On August 09 2012 02:35 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:28 Whatson wrote:On August 09 2012 02:25 ]343[ wrote:
Huh, I think people are failing to recall how much lower the skill level was when the article was written... Did the writer of the article really not put into consideration the potential for the SC2 players to get better...it's not like they wouldn't improve. I think the intent was to comment on what was the current state of SC2 play at that time. The article doesn't really talk about the future beyond "If Kespa players all change over NOW..." The intent was to question the skill (then or potential) of then-best SC2 players, and thus the validity of a scene dominated by them. By showing their awful records in BW, it downplays the players themselves, not their current skill or whatever, not accounting for that they are now in a whole 'nother ballpark. It's a huge middle finger for SC2. It's the rallying point for BW elitists. It's a shame that more than a year after that piece of crap was written, people still are waiting for the things it predicted, like Christians waiting for the judgement day, to shove their disdain in SC2 fans' faces. You're upset because one insulting article was written. The BW community is upset because SC2 killed our game and denied us the chance of ever seeing it on a pro-stage again. it died cos the game was old as fuck, if sc2 wasnt around youd just as likely be watching LoL You are so fucking wrong and it's people like you that make new school gaming scenes fucking awful. You have no idea what it's like to love a game for its quality.
To be fair, BW was declining long before SC2 came out. It certainly did accelerate the process though.
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^not disputing that, I was just sickened by his choice of words -.-
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On August 09 2012 06:36 ShrieK wrote:
^not disputing that, I was just sickened by his choice of words -.-
Old as fuck didn't necessarily have to be used but there's no escaping or denying that in this day and age graphics and so on is quite a big deal to sponsors etc. I love BW as well and wish it would still have been around, what I would have loved even more though was an exact copy of BW but with sc2 graphics. Even though I love the charm that BW has in its own looks.
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On August 09 2012 05:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 03:04 nokz88 wrote:On August 09 2012 02:35 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:28 Whatson wrote:On August 09 2012 02:25 ]343[ wrote:
Huh, I think people are failing to recall how much lower the skill level was when the article was written... Did the writer of the article really not put into consideration the potential for the SC2 players to get better...it's not like they wouldn't improve. I think the intent was to comment on what was the current state of SC2 play at that time. The article doesn't really talk about the future beyond "If Kespa players all change over NOW..." The intent was to question the skill (then or potential) of then-best SC2 players, and thus the validity of a scene dominated by them. By showing their awful records in BW, it downplays the players themselves, not their current skill or whatever, not accounting for that they are now in a whole 'nother ballpark. It's a huge middle finger for SC2. It's the rallying point for BW elitists. It's a shame that more than a year after that piece of crap was written, people still are waiting for the things it predicted, like Christians waiting for the judgement day, to shove their disdain in SC2 fans' faces. You're upset because one insulting article was written. The BW community is upset because SC2 killed our game and denied us the chance of ever seeing it on a pro-stage again.
Sorry for your loss.
It is not only about the article, the article is more a symbol for the attitude that some BW fans have shown towards SC2, but I know SC2 fans behaved bad in the BW forums too. I wish there was less animosity between the scenes.
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On August 09 2012 06:39 Darneck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:36 ShrieK wrote:
^not disputing that, I was just sickened by his choice of words -.- Old as fuck didn't necessarily have to be used but there's no escaping or denying that in this day and age graphics and so on is quite a big deal to sponsors etc. I love BW as well and wish it would still have been around, what I would have loved even more though was an exact copy of BW but with sc2 graphics. Even though I love the charm that BW has in its own looks.
Doesn't SC2BW exist? I think making more modern graphics for this mod shouldn't be that hard for a modder.
On August 09 2012 06:34 Dranak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:22 ShrieK wrote:On August 09 2012 06:01 sOda~ wrote:On August 09 2012 05:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 09 2012 03:04 nokz88 wrote:On August 09 2012 02:35 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:28 Whatson wrote:On August 09 2012 02:25 ]343[ wrote:
Huh, I think people are failing to recall how much lower the skill level was when the article was written... Did the writer of the article really not put into consideration the potential for the SC2 players to get better...it's not like they wouldn't improve. I think the intent was to comment on what was the current state of SC2 play at that time. The article doesn't really talk about the future beyond "If Kespa players all change over NOW..." The intent was to question the skill (then or potential) of then-best SC2 players, and thus the validity of a scene dominated by them. By showing their awful records in BW, it downplays the players themselves, not their current skill or whatever, not accounting for that they are now in a whole 'nother ballpark. It's a huge middle finger for SC2. It's the rallying point for BW elitists. It's a shame that more than a year after that piece of crap was written, people still are waiting for the things it predicted, like Christians waiting for the judgement day, to shove their disdain in SC2 fans' faces. You're upset because one insulting article was written. The BW community is upset because SC2 killed our game and denied us the chance of ever seeing it on a pro-stage again. it died cos the game was old as fuck, if sc2 wasnt around youd just as likely be watching LoL You are so fucking wrong and it's people like you that make new school gaming scenes fucking awful. You have no idea what it's like to love a game for its quality. To be fair, BW was declining long before SC2 came out. It certainly did accelerate the process though.
LoL is way more popular in korea than SC2. This game could have grabbed just as much territory from BW if not more.
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On August 09 2012 06:42 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:39 Darneck wrote:
Old as fuck didn't necessarily have to be used but there's no escaping or denying that in this day and age graphics and so on is quite a big deal to sponsors etc. I love BW as well and wish it would still have been around, what I would have loved even more though was an exact copy of BW but with sc2 graphics. Even though I love the charm that BW has in its own looks. Doesn't SC2BW exist? I think making more modern graphics for this mod shouldn't be that hard for a modder.
It does exist but it's not 100% yet and since it's official it would probably sadly never go "mainstream".
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On August 09 2012 06:03 fasdaf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 03:09 Sandermatt wrote:On August 09 2012 02:53 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:43 fraktoasters wrote:On August 09 2012 02:35 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:28 Whatson wrote:On August 09 2012 02:25 ]343[ wrote:
Huh, I think people are failing to recall how much lower the skill level was when the article was written... Did the writer of the article really not put into consideration the potential for the SC2 players to get better...it's not like they wouldn't improve. I think the intent was to comment on what was the current state of SC2 play at that time. The article doesn't really talk about the future beyond "If Kespa players all change over NOW..." I'm not sure what you're quoting. "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment" I worded that poorly, as it was not a quote. I was just highlighting that the article doesn't say anything about the future, just (what was) the present. Even at the time this article was written it wasn't true. The article argues, that because the SC2 players had bad performances in BW (which they played until 2010), the players with better performances in BW would also be much better in SC2. Reality is a player with little/nothing to show until the release of SC2 (4 games all lost). Now he does really well in SC2. He is basically what any of the GSL players could have been if he stayed with Kespa and only now switched over. Some players have been bad at BW and good at SC2, some bad at both, some good at both and some were good at BW and are bad at SC2. GSL players will not continue to dominate the Kespa players forever, but the Kespa players will not dominate the GSL players either. What? I have no idea why you think Reality had little/nothing to show until the release of SC2. Take a look at his TLPD page. He's qualified for individual leagues before, and was an A-teamer and regular in SPL, which is a very different situation from that of most GSL players.
This is the source I used.
I only found 4 games up to the date of the SC2 release.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=712&part=games&vs=all&league=standard&map=any&from_year=2009&from_month=4&from_day=2&to_year=2010&to_month=7&to_day=27&action=Update
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On August 09 2012 06:36 ShrieK wrote:
^not disputing that, I was just sickened by his choice of words -.-
Well that I agree with. He was kind of a dick about it.
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United Kingdom3249 Posts
Well is this not grand boys and girls. The constant balance whine in live report threads is great and all that, but jazzing it up a little bit with bickering about BW pros v SC2 pros just adds a certain je ne sais quoi to the reader's experience.
Well done, this is going to be so much fun in the future too!
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On August 09 2012 06:34 Dranak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:22 ShrieK wrote:On August 09 2012 06:01 sOda~ wrote:On August 09 2012 05:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 09 2012 03:04 nokz88 wrote:On August 09 2012 02:35 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:28 Whatson wrote:On August 09 2012 02:25 ]343[ wrote:
Huh, I think people are failing to recall how much lower the skill level was when the article was written... Did the writer of the article really not put into consideration the potential for the SC2 players to get better...it's not like they wouldn't improve. I think the intent was to comment on what was the current state of SC2 play at that time. The article doesn't really talk about the future beyond "If Kespa players all change over NOW..." The intent was to question the skill (then or potential) of then-best SC2 players, and thus the validity of a scene dominated by them. By showing their awful records in BW, it downplays the players themselves, not their current skill or whatever, not accounting for that they are now in a whole 'nother ballpark. It's a huge middle finger for SC2. It's the rallying point for BW elitists. It's a shame that more than a year after that piece of crap was written, people still are waiting for the things it predicted, like Christians waiting for the judgement day, to shove their disdain in SC2 fans' faces. You're upset because one insulting article was written. The BW community is upset because SC2 killed our game and denied us the chance of ever seeing it on a pro-stage again. it died cos the game was old as fuck, if sc2 wasnt around youd just as likely be watching LoL You are so fucking wrong and it's people like you that make new school gaming scenes fucking awful. You have no idea what it's like to love a game for its quality. To be fair, BW was declining long before SC2 came out. It certainly did accelerate the process though.
I can't believe people actually buy into that narrative. A betting scandal and a few teams having trouble finding sponsors is not the end of the world. I watched BW all through this supposed "decline." Team Liquid hosted their first ever tournaments during this decline. Record breaking crowds came out to watch in China, the stands were always packed at the OSL, armies of vuvuzelas sounded off at the PL finals. The fans were there. They didn't go anywhere.
Neither did Kespa. Not until Blizzard took away their legal right to even broadcast the games. BW was shut down at gunpoint. That's when they started pushing this fucked up narrative of "BW in decline."
If BW was in such decline why were there more and more international tournaments popping up? Why was BW still in WCG right up until the day SC2 came out? Every time we heard some crap about BW is an old game, BW is fading, you'd see an OSL finals where people poured out in the thousands to watch.
Were you even around during 09-10? It was some of the most exciting times in BW. The game was still evolving. ZvZ hive play, mass queen play, Flash's anti-carrier build, PvZ was even starting to use some 1-base openings again, just bullshit. Such bullshit to say BW was dying.
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10387 Posts
On August 09 2012 06:47 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:03 fasdaf wrote:On August 09 2012 03:09 Sandermatt wrote:On August 09 2012 02:53 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:43 fraktoasters wrote:On August 09 2012 02:35 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:28 Whatson wrote:On August 09 2012 02:25 ]343[ wrote:
Huh, I think people are failing to recall how much lower the skill level was when the article was written... Did the writer of the article really not put into consideration the potential for the SC2 players to get better...it's not like they wouldn't improve. I think the intent was to comment on what was the current state of SC2 play at that time. The article doesn't really talk about the future beyond "If Kespa players all change over NOW..." I'm not sure what you're quoting. "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment" I worded that poorly, as it was not a quote. I was just highlighting that the article doesn't say anything about the future, just (what was) the present. Even at the time this article was written it wasn't true. The article argues, that because the SC2 players had bad performances in BW (which they played until 2010), the players with better performances in BW would also be much better in SC2. Reality is a player with little/nothing to show until the release of SC2 (4 games all lost). Now he does really well in SC2. He is basically what any of the GSL players could have been if he stayed with Kespa and only now switched over. Some players have been bad at BW and good at SC2, some bad at both, some good at both and some were good at BW and are bad at SC2. GSL players will not continue to dominate the Kespa players forever, but the Kespa players will not dominate the GSL players either. What? I have no idea why you think Reality had little/nothing to show until the release of SC2. Take a look at his TLPD page. He's qualified for individual leagues before, and was an A-teamer and regular in SPL, which is a very different situation from that of most GSL players. This is the source I used. I only found 4 games up to the date of the SC2 release. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=712&part=games&vs=all&league=standard&map=any&from_year=2009&from_month=4&from_day=2&to_year=2010&to_month=7&to_day=27&action=Update
...............................................................
you forgot to include his other 2 years of progaming
and being sent out for PL and qualifying for OSL within the first year of your progaming career is pretty goddamn impressive, which is why Reality was an extremely strong candidate for Rookie of the Year award .. something that most of the current GSL players didn't even come close to achieving mind you
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On August 09 2012 06:57 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:47 Sandermatt wrote:On August 09 2012 06:03 fasdaf wrote:On August 09 2012 03:09 Sandermatt wrote:On August 09 2012 02:53 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:43 fraktoasters wrote:On August 09 2012 02:35 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:28 Whatson wrote:On August 09 2012 02:25 ]343[ wrote:
Huh, I think people are failing to recall how much lower the skill level was when the article was written... Did the writer of the article really not put into consideration the potential for the SC2 players to get better...it's not like they wouldn't improve. I think the intent was to comment on what was the current state of SC2 play at that time. The article doesn't really talk about the future beyond "If Kespa players all change over NOW..." I'm not sure what you're quoting. "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment" I worded that poorly, as it was not a quote. I was just highlighting that the article doesn't say anything about the future, just (what was) the present. Even at the time this article was written it wasn't true. The article argues, that because the SC2 players had bad performances in BW (which they played until 2010), the players with better performances in BW would also be much better in SC2. Reality is a player with little/nothing to show until the release of SC2 (4 games all lost). Now he does really well in SC2. He is basically what any of the GSL players could have been if he stayed with Kespa and only now switched over. Some players have been bad at BW and good at SC2, some bad at both, some good at both and some were good at BW and are bad at SC2. GSL players will not continue to dominate the Kespa players forever, but the Kespa players will not dominate the GSL players either. What? I have no idea why you think Reality had little/nothing to show until the release of SC2. Take a look at his TLPD page. He's qualified for individual leagues before, and was an A-teamer and regular in SPL, which is a very different situation from that of most GSL players. This is the source I used. I only found 4 games up to the date of the SC2 release. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=712&part=games&vs=all&league=standard&map=any&from_year=2009&from_month=4&from_day=2&to_year=2010&to_month=7&to_day=27&action=Update ............................................................... you forgot to include his other 2 years of progaming
Even if I make the search start at the year 2000 no other games show up. And I said until the release of SC2, which was in July 2010. With release I mean the game release, not the Kespa switch.
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On August 09 2012 06:41 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 09 2012 03:04 nokz88 wrote:On August 09 2012 02:35 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:28 Whatson wrote:On August 09 2012 02:25 ]343[ wrote:
Huh, I think people are failing to recall how much lower the skill level was when the article was written... Did the writer of the article really not put into consideration the potential for the SC2 players to get better...it's not like they wouldn't improve. I think the intent was to comment on what was the current state of SC2 play at that time. The article doesn't really talk about the future beyond "If Kespa players all change over NOW..." The intent was to question the skill (then or potential) of then-best SC2 players, and thus the validity of a scene dominated by them. By showing their awful records in BW, it downplays the players themselves, not their current skill or whatever, not accounting for that they are now in a whole 'nother ballpark. It's a huge middle finger for SC2. It's the rallying point for BW elitists. It's a shame that more than a year after that piece of crap was written, people still are waiting for the things it predicted, like Christians waiting for the judgement day, to shove their disdain in SC2 fans' faces. You're upset because one insulting article was written. The BW community is upset because SC2 killed our game and denied us the chance of ever seeing it on a pro-stage again. Sorry for your loss. It is not only about the article, the article is more a symbol for the attitude that some BW fans have shown towards SC2, but I know SC2 fans behaved bad in the BW forums too. I wish there was less animosity between the scenes.
Thanks for your condolences. I don't have animosity towards SC2 scene. I was just watching NASL today and these games last night. Love DRG and Stephano, and the gameplay in SC2 has really, really improved over this past year. Before this year, the games were horrendous on all levels and a bore to watch, but now the finesse is starting to shine through and it's turning into a very entertaining game to watch. PvP is exciting as hell to me now that the 4gate trend has faded away and there's a lot more of this immortal prism style coming into play. I think HOTS will improve that matchup even more with that giant AA unit that can splat Colossi from 23 range. Will put an end to the mass laser beams I hope. But I honestly have no complaints about the SC2 scene in terms of players.
What I have a problem with is disrespectful idiots who know nothing about BW and want to insult Kespa players when they haven't even had time to adjust, especially TBLS. To insult the gods of BW scarcely a week after we watched our last major tourney come to an end is like stabbing an open wound.
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woot! go Reality!! 
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On August 09 2012 06:22 ShrieK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:01 sOda~ wrote:On August 09 2012 05:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 09 2012 03:04 nokz88 wrote:On August 09 2012 02:35 Dranak wrote:On August 09 2012 02:28 Whatson wrote:On August 09 2012 02:25 ]343[ wrote:
Huh, I think people are failing to recall how much lower the skill level was when the article was written... Did the writer of the article really not put into consideration the potential for the SC2 players to get better...it's not like they wouldn't improve. I think the intent was to comment on what was the current state of SC2 play at that time. The article doesn't really talk about the future beyond "If Kespa players all change over NOW..." The intent was to question the skill (then or potential) of then-best SC2 players, and thus the validity of a scene dominated by them. By showing their awful records in BW, it downplays the players themselves, not their current skill or whatever, not accounting for that they are now in a whole 'nother ballpark. It's a huge middle finger for SC2. It's the rallying point for BW elitists. It's a shame that more than a year after that piece of crap was written, people still are waiting for the things it predicted, like Christians waiting for the judgement day, to shove their disdain in SC2 fans' faces. You're upset because one insulting article was written. The BW community is upset because SC2 killed our game and denied us the chance of ever seeing it on a pro-stage again. it died cos the game was old as fuck, if sc2 wasnt around youd just as likely be watching LoL You are so fucking wrong and it's people like you that make new school gaming scenes fucking awful. You have no idea what it's like to love a game for its quality.
Provided that you loved BW strictly for its quality as a RTS game, you'd be following it still. I hear the Chinese are still playing it on stage, so why aren't you watching them?
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EPT
