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On July 01 2012 04:07 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 04:05 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On July 01 2012 04:02 M7Jagger wrote:
Lol, he had 3 bases before Jrecco, the worker count were basically equal in the mid game, yet Jrecco won. The balance team at blizzard don't know what they're doing. Jrecco had a late game army, Demuslim did not. I'm not convinced that MMM is a solid style for late game. MMM could be a solid style for late game but it needs ghost support. You can't play against mass spellcaster without ANY anti-spellcasters. We can afford a handful of ghosts in TvP, why not TvZ?
Ghost can damage any protoss unit with EMP.
For zergs they can only counter infestors.
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On July 01 2012 04:05 ProxyKnoxy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 04:02 M7Jagger wrote:
Lol, he had 3 bases before Jrecco, the worker count were basically equal in the mid game, yet Jrecco won. The balance team at blizzard don't know what they're doing. Jrecco had a late game army, Demuslim did not. I'm not convinced that MMM is a solid style for late game.
But what units should he have gotten?
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Zikti and Jhonny is really comming out this month! Good for the UK scene
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On July 01 2012 04:05 ProxyKnoxy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 04:02 M7Jagger wrote:
Lol, he had 3 bases before Jrecco, the worker count were basically equal in the mid game, yet Jrecco won. The balance team at blizzard don't know what they're doing. Jrecco had a late game army, Demuslim did not. I'm not convinced that MMM is a solid style for late game.
because Z naturally transitions from pure ling into lategame army. terran doesnt, you have to build up a completly different techpath with different upgrades AND you have to be agressive while having the same eco basically. Z just has to sit back, build drones and macro up - pretty hard to die to any timing with ur creepspread and 6 tanky queens out on the map always while having the ability to build 30 units per circle
On July 01 2012 04:10 Benjamin99 wrote:
Zikti and Jhonny is really comming out this month! Good for the UK scene
ye, so are 10 other european zergs for some reason 
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On July 01 2012 04:06 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 04:03 projectChaos wrote:
ghosts would`nt have helped at all.
Scan before moving up ramps, if you see infestors and no detection, EMP or snipe with cloaked ghosts. Running up ramps with clumps against fungal is suicide.
The reasources to buildup ghost infrastructure takes too much. Upgrades/ techlabs/buildtime and they aren not worthy in the composition otherwise than emp. Snipe doesnt do jack sh*t anymore when it got nerfed. You need 3 shots or 4 to kill one infestor.
So yeah you do nothing whit ghosts in TvZ
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On July 01 2012 04:10 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 04:07 yeint wrote:On July 01 2012 04:05 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On July 01 2012 04:02 M7Jagger wrote:
Lol, he had 3 bases before Jrecco, the worker count were basically equal in the mid game, yet Jrecco won. The balance team at blizzard don't know what they're doing. Jrecco had a late game army, Demuslim did not. I'm not convinced that MMM is a solid style for late game. MMM could be a solid style for late game but it needs ghost support. You can't play against mass spellcaster without ANY anti-spellcasters. We can afford a handful of ghosts in TvP, why not TvZ? Ghost can damage any protoss unit with EMP. For zergs they can only counter infestors.
Yes, but Zerg doesn't have invisible detectors, so cloak is a lot stronger. There was no detection in the first encounter, so just 2-3 cloaked ghosts could have gone in and eliminated most of the infestors before the engagement. Scan ahead, if you see detectors, don't engage near them.
I also think ZvT is heavily zerg favored right now but I think that game could have gone a lot better for Demu if he'd made a couple of ghosts.
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On July 01 2012 04:11 Sepi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 04:06 yeint wrote:On July 01 2012 04:03 projectChaos wrote:
ghosts would`nt have helped at all.
Scan before moving up ramps, if you see infestors and no detection, EMP or snipe with cloaked ghosts. Running up ramps with clumps against fungal is suicide. The reasources to buildup ghost infrastructure takes too much. Upgrades/ techlabs/buildtime and they aren not worthy in the composition otherwise than emp. Snipe doesnt do jack sh*t anymore when it got nerfed. You need 3 shots or 4 to kill one infestor. So yeah you do nothing whit ghosts in TvZ
Except that if you actually knew what you are talking about, you'd know that before the nerf it took 3 shots to kill a ghost and now it takes 2.
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LOL Milkizino
Will Tasteless ever get his name right? Only time will tell.
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Belgium2844 Posts
Tasteless really can't spell ziktomini's name! 
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Snipe 2 shots infestors now but other than that they have no place in TvZ. As Sepi said the cost of the tech is too much when you're already spending as much as you can on keeping up with Zerg's production. Not worth all that to get one caster to counter another caster, especially when infestors can be made all at once.
No I think MMM is the way but splitting the fungals up is going to have to be a must and DeMu didn't do that well enough this time.
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On July 01 2012 04:13 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 04:10 pmp10 wrote:On July 01 2012 04:07 yeint wrote:On July 01 2012 04:05 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On July 01 2012 04:02 M7Jagger wrote:
Lol, he had 3 bases before Jrecco, the worker count were basically equal in the mid game, yet Jrecco won. The balance team at blizzard don't know what they're doing. Jrecco had a late game army, Demuslim did not. I'm not convinced that MMM is a solid style for late game. MMM could be a solid style for late game but it needs ghost support. You can't play against mass spellcaster without ANY anti-spellcasters. We can afford a handful of ghosts in TvP, why not TvZ? Ghost can damage any protoss unit with EMP. For zergs they can only counter infestors. Yes, but Zerg doesn't have invisible detectors, so cloak is a lot stronger. There was no detection in the first encounter, so just 2-3 cloaked ghosts could have gone in and eliminated most of the infestors before the engagement. Scan ahead, if you see detectors, don't engage near them. I also think ZvT is heavily zerg favored right now but I think that game could have gone a lot better for Demu if he'd made a couple of ghosts.
That's only assuming that zergs never gets overseers when he scouts ghosts and is too slow on the revealing fungals.
Too many ifs for too little gain.
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On July 01 2012 04:11 Sepi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 04:06 yeint wrote:On July 01 2012 04:03 projectChaos wrote:
ghosts would`nt have helped at all.
Scan before moving up ramps, if you see infestors and no detection, EMP or snipe with cloaked ghosts. Running up ramps with clumps against fungal is suicide. The reasources to buildup ghost infrastructure takes too much. Upgrades/ techlabs/buildtime and they aren not worthy in the composition otherwise than emp. Snipe doesnt do jack sh*t anymore when it got nerfed. You need 3 shots or 4 to kill one infestor. So yeah you do nothing whit ghosts in TvZ
What are you talking about? He was going mass MMM, he had all of the infrastructure needed for getting Ghosts.
Rax with tech labs? Plenty. Just make 4 fewer Medivacs and you have the gas for cloak upgrade and Academy.
It's basically the same exact infrastructure as we use in TvP - mass rax, no factory tech to speak of, reactored ports for viking spam. I think it's a nonsensical statement to say you can't afford 3 cloaked ghosts with that style before you hit food cap.
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That guy really looks like Demuslim with long hair.
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On July 01 2012 04:15 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 04:13 yeint wrote:On July 01 2012 04:10 pmp10 wrote:On July 01 2012 04:07 yeint wrote:On July 01 2012 04:05 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On July 01 2012 04:02 M7Jagger wrote:
Lol, he had 3 bases before Jrecco, the worker count were basically equal in the mid game, yet Jrecco won. The balance team at blizzard don't know what they're doing. Jrecco had a late game army, Demuslim did not. I'm not convinced that MMM is a solid style for late game. MMM could be a solid style for late game but it needs ghost support. You can't play against mass spellcaster without ANY anti-spellcasters. We can afford a handful of ghosts in TvP, why not TvZ? Ghost can damage any protoss unit with EMP. For zergs they can only counter infestors. Yes, but Zerg doesn't have invisible detectors, so cloak is a lot stronger. There was no detection in the first encounter, so just 2-3 cloaked ghosts could have gone in and eliminated most of the infestors before the engagement. Scan ahead, if you see detectors, don't engage near them. I also think ZvT is heavily zerg favored right now but I think that game could have gone a lot better for Demu if he'd made a couple of ghosts. That's only assuming that zergs never gets overseers when he scouts ghosts and is too slow on the revealing fungals. Too many ifs for too little gain.
Look, playing that heavy econ style means sitting back until you're ready to move out. Make ghosts when you do move out, and scan ahead. If you don't know that the Zerg has infestors, you're not scouting.
EDIT: And yes, overseers will negate cloak usefulness, but with the heavy econ style you HAVE to do damage with your first engagement, and I definitely think a small number of cloaked ghosts are the most cost effective way to come out on top of that first engagement.
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Are you serious ?
Have you ever seen a pro doing Ghosts in the last weeks ? Ghosts are history in ZvT.
Terrans prefere to do marine tanks for the whole game. Early aggression with medivecs before infestors are out. "Late" tanks. Keep the zerg not too big and prevent a lategame. If Broods are out, try to split and avoid a big fight unless you have enough vikings.
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Belgium2844 Posts
On July 01 2012 04:17 Deckkie wrote:
That guy really looks like Demuslim with long hair.
I was going to say the same thing! xD
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Is there really any need to pollute every single thread with balance whine? Seem's like people just cant help them selves.
I'm a big demuslim fan, i wanted him to win more then anything, but blaming it on balance is just silly.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Zik's ling bling micro is pretty tasty.
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On July 01 2012 04:04 GeisArchrion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 04:02 Sp00ly wrote:On July 01 2012 04:02 M7Jagger wrote:
Lol, he had 3 bases before Jrecco, the worker count were basically equal in the mid game, yet Jrecco won. The balance team at blizzard don't know what they're doing. Don't you mean Demuslim doesn't know what he's doing? No-one really knows what they're doing vs Zerg anymore. DeMu's greedy bio play seems the most viable but even thats really unforgiving as we just saw.
2rax seems to be the only answer
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On July 01 2012 04:18 projectChaos wrote:
Are you serious ?
Have you ever seen a pro doing Ghosts in the last weeks ? Ghosts are history in ZvT.
Terrans prefere to do marine tanks for the whole game. Early aggression with medivecs before infestors are out. "Late" tanks. Keep the zerg not too big and prevent a lategame. If Broods are out, try to split and avoid a big fight unless you have enough vikings.
We're not talking about the entirety of TvZ, we're talking about the specific MMM/econ style that DeMuslim was playing that game. I'm saying that this specific style would be stronger with a low number of cloaked ghosts.
Yes, mass ghost is history in TvZ, but I wasn't talking about that at all.
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EPT
