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On June 01 2012 05:29 Whitewing wrote:
It's not a problem with team liquid's players being weak or bad, they're all capable of beating tassadar and winning games vs. him, just as they are all capable of beating Life. They just happened to lose some best of ones vs. great players (life was playing weird risky strats that paid off, and he did it well vs. SlayerS too, and Tassadar didn't look unbeatable or anything, was just playing well). They aren't incapable of winning or anything, they aren't worse, they have several code S players, they just didn't play their absolute best and just happened to lose.
LOL you're in denial man. They couldn't even get past code B qualifiers, what makes ya think they are code S? lmao.
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On June 01 2012 05:34 iGoTThiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:29 Whitewing wrote:
It's not a problem with team liquid's players being weak or bad, they're all capable of beating tassadar and winning games vs. him, just as they are all capable of beating Life. They just happened to lose some best of ones vs. great players (life was playing weird risky strats that paid off, and he did it well vs. SlayerS too, and Tassadar didn't look unbeatable or anything, was just playing well). They aren't incapable of winning or anything, they aren't worse, they have several code S players, they just didn't play their absolute best and just happened to lose. LOL you're in denial man. They couldn't even get past code B qualifiers, what makes ya think they are code S? lmao.
TL does have Code S players. Hero and Taeja. And Zenio was just in Code S for them.
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On June 01 2012 05:36 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:34 iGoTThiZ wrote:On June 01 2012 05:29 Whitewing wrote:
It's not a problem with team liquid's players being weak or bad, they're all capable of beating tassadar and winning games vs. him, just as they are all capable of beating Life. They just happened to lose some best of ones vs. great players (life was playing weird risky strats that paid off, and he did it well vs. SlayerS too, and Tassadar didn't look unbeatable or anything, was just playing well). They aren't incapable of winning or anything, they aren't worse, they have several code S players, they just didn't play their absolute best and just happened to lose. LOL you're in denial man. They couldn't even get past code B qualifiers, what makes ya think they are code S? lmao. TL does have Code S players. Hero and Taeja. And Zenio was just in Code S for them.
You're right. Guess i thought we were just talking about the foreigners. I have been saying this team is all Hero and Taeja, thats it.
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Having Ret and Sheth would have really helped the team. Both these guys have shown that they can consistently hang with the Koreans. Ret especially has shown prowress in many tournaments against Koreans.
I definitely agree that facing elimination, the foreigners of the team should have been sent out as snipers. Jjakji and Seal were the main threats of NSHS, and Liquid had answers in TaeJa and HerO.
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On June 01 2012 05:36 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:34 iGoTThiZ wrote:On June 01 2012 05:29 Whitewing wrote:
It's not a problem with team liquid's players being weak or bad, they're all capable of beating tassadar and winning games vs. him, just as they are all capable of beating Life. They just happened to lose some best of ones vs. great players (life was playing weird risky strats that paid off, and he did it well vs. SlayerS too, and Tassadar didn't look unbeatable or anything, was just playing well). They aren't incapable of winning or anything, they aren't worse, they have several code S players, they just didn't play their absolute best and just happened to lose. LOL you're in denial man. They couldn't even get past code B qualifiers, what makes ya think they are code S? lmao. TL does have Code S players. Hero and Taeja. And Zenio was just in Code S for them.
Zenio is not Code S. Only Taeja and Hero are Code S.
The sad thing is foreigner teams relying on their korean mercenaries to beat the other korean teams.
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very unfortunate first season for TL.
But it was a lesson to never underestimate seemingly smaller players or teams.
Everyone in GSTL is looking deadly, and the smallest mistake can cost a whole clanwar.
Looking very forward now if fnatic can do it better against TSL, but who knows wouldnt be surprised if guys like RevivaL or Inori going on a rampage.
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On June 01 2012 05:55 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:36 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 01 2012 05:34 iGoTThiZ wrote:On June 01 2012 05:29 Whitewing wrote:
It's not a problem with team liquid's players being weak or bad, they're all capable of beating tassadar and winning games vs. him, just as they are all capable of beating Life. They just happened to lose some best of ones vs. great players (life was playing weird risky strats that paid off, and he did it well vs. SlayerS too, and Tassadar didn't look unbeatable or anything, was just playing well). They aren't incapable of winning or anything, they aren't worse, they have several code S players, they just didn't play their absolute best and just happened to lose. LOL you're in denial man. They couldn't even get past code B qualifiers, what makes ya think they are code S? lmao. TL does have Code S players. Hero and Taeja. And Zenio was just in Code S for them. Zenio is not Code S. Only Taeja and Hero are Code S. The sad thing is foreigner teams relying on their korean mercenaries to beat the other korean teams.
Why is that sad? Those players are part of their respective teams and are being paid much better than most players in Korea. That's phenomenal for the development of the game... and they should absolutely be able to use those players in team league without it being frowned upon by others who have no clue what they're saying. Having foreigners and koreans on the same team is amazing for the game.
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Does anyone know if TL will be back for next season? Like if the players will stay that long? I know Jinro, Hero, Zenio, and Taeja will be there... So they'd technically only need one more person.. Will Haypro and TLO, (or Ret/Sheth) be there til' Augest/September?
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On June 01 2012 07:09 Loodah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:55 FakeDeath wrote:On June 01 2012 05:36 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 01 2012 05:34 iGoTThiZ wrote:On June 01 2012 05:29 Whitewing wrote:
It's not a problem with team liquid's players being weak or bad, they're all capable of beating tassadar and winning games vs. him, just as they are all capable of beating Life. They just happened to lose some best of ones vs. great players (life was playing weird risky strats that paid off, and he did it well vs. SlayerS too, and Tassadar didn't look unbeatable or anything, was just playing well). They aren't incapable of winning or anything, they aren't worse, they have several code S players, they just didn't play their absolute best and just happened to lose. LOL you're in denial man. They couldn't even get past code B qualifiers, what makes ya think they are code S? lmao. TL does have Code S players. Hero and Taeja. And Zenio was just in Code S for them. Zenio is not Code S. Only Taeja and Hero are Code S. The sad thing is foreigner teams relying on their korean mercenaries to beat the other korean teams. Why is that sad? Those players are part of their respective teams and are being paid much better than most players in Korea. That's phenomenal for the development of the game... and they should absolutely be able to use those players in team league without it being frowned upon by others who have no clue what they're saying. Having foreigners and koreans on the same team is amazing for the game.
The sad thing about it is the realization that foreigners can't compete.
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On June 01 2012 07:19 polyphonyEX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 07:09 Loodah wrote:On June 01 2012 05:55 FakeDeath wrote:On June 01 2012 05:36 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 01 2012 05:34 iGoTThiZ wrote:On June 01 2012 05:29 Whitewing wrote:
It's not a problem with team liquid's players being weak or bad, they're all capable of beating tassadar and winning games vs. him, just as they are all capable of beating Life. They just happened to lose some best of ones vs. great players (life was playing weird risky strats that paid off, and he did it well vs. SlayerS too, and Tassadar didn't look unbeatable or anything, was just playing well). They aren't incapable of winning or anything, they aren't worse, they have several code S players, they just didn't play their absolute best and just happened to lose. LOL you're in denial man. They couldn't even get past code B qualifiers, what makes ya think they are code S? lmao. TL does have Code S players. Hero and Taeja. And Zenio was just in Code S for them. Zenio is not Code S. Only Taeja and Hero are Code S. The sad thing is foreigner teams relying on their korean mercenaries to beat the other korean teams. Why is that sad? Those players are part of their respective teams and are being paid much better than most players in Korea. That's phenomenal for the development of the game... and they should absolutely be able to use those players in team league without it being frowned upon by others who have no clue what they're saying. Having foreigners and koreans on the same team is amazing for the game. The sad thing about it is the realization that foreigners can't compete.
Well, realization is always the first step to solve a problem.
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On June 01 2012 07:19 polyphonyEX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 07:09 Loodah wrote:On June 01 2012 05:55 FakeDeath wrote:On June 01 2012 05:36 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 01 2012 05:34 iGoTThiZ wrote:On June 01 2012 05:29 Whitewing wrote:
It's not a problem with team liquid's players being weak or bad, they're all capable of beating tassadar and winning games vs. him, just as they are all capable of beating Life. They just happened to lose some best of ones vs. great players (life was playing weird risky strats that paid off, and he did it well vs. SlayerS too, and Tassadar didn't look unbeatable or anything, was just playing well). They aren't incapable of winning or anything, they aren't worse, they have several code S players, they just didn't play their absolute best and just happened to lose. LOL you're in denial man. They couldn't even get past code B qualifiers, what makes ya think they are code S? lmao. TL does have Code S players. Hero and Taeja. And Zenio was just in Code S for them. Zenio is not Code S. Only Taeja and Hero are Code S. The sad thing is foreigner teams relying on their korean mercenaries to beat the other korean teams. Why is that sad? Those players are part of their respective teams and are being paid much better than most players in Korea. That's phenomenal for the development of the game... and they should absolutely be able to use those players in team league without it being frowned upon by others who have no clue what they're saying. Having foreigners and koreans on the same team is amazing for the game. The sad thing about it is the realization that foreigners can't compete.
That's right. I would say the only foreign player that can compete at the top Korean level is Stephano. Thorzain, Naniwa, maybe Huk, are close but not quite.
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On June 01 2012 05:29 iGoTThiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:14 Bagration wrote:On June 01 2012 04:54 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
@ Discussion about future of TL and what kind of players to recruit:
I obviously can't tell TL where it should be headed in the future. But here's my thoughts: I would say that recruiting more Koreans, of Terran and Protoss, would not be a bad idea. TL has a strong Zerg line-up (Zenio, TLO, Ret, and Sheth can all beat Code A level players), but without fleshing out the roster with more Terran and Protoss (whether they choose foreigners or zerg), TL will be handicapped in team leagues.
Furthermore, I think TL has a responsibility to serve by its current players the best it can, and to keep an eye out on possible upcomers (Korean or foreign) as well as proven standards (like the Taeja-Hero-Zenio-Huk pick ups) - because I think all the teams out there have a responsibility to help E-sports grow by giving new, younger players a chance.
However, Liquid'Supernova would be amazing =) You can't simply just recruit players out of nowhere. They cost salaries, and additional expenses to send them abroad to tournaments, housing, etc. TL is not made out of money, and it would be hard for it to aggressively expand its roster. You talk about picking up new talent, yet also a "responsiblility to serve by its current players". I agree with you that both are important, but with limited financial resources, both tasks cannot be undertaken to the fullest. Either way, I think all this talk about recruiting more Koreans is simply the "easy way out" mentality. What happened to working more with the existing team members? Liquid also could have done much better if they had better preparation, and brought in their full roster to both matches. Woking more with existing members? Jinro has been in the team since the first GSL and gets knocked out of foreign tournaments by nobody's. They need to end this care bear attitude and get rid of unmotivated, bad players if they want to compete in Korea. It is mind boggling how such a big name team has such bad players.
Lmao, "unmotivated"? You obviously know nothing about Jinro if you think he's unmotivated. Oh, the naivete of people who think "hey, a person just has to want to be good at something and therefore they automatically will be!" Also, please name the nobody that knocked Jinro out of the last few foreigner tournaments that Jinro has attended.
If anything, all the evidence says the opposite: look at IPL4, for instance, where he made it to top 40 of an insanely stacked open bracket, falling only to Violet and Creator.
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On June 01 2012 07:29 CrappyHippo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 07:19 polyphonyEX wrote:On June 01 2012 07:09 Loodah wrote:On June 01 2012 05:55 FakeDeath wrote:On June 01 2012 05:36 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 01 2012 05:34 iGoTThiZ wrote:On June 01 2012 05:29 Whitewing wrote:
It's not a problem with team liquid's players being weak or bad, they're all capable of beating tassadar and winning games vs. him, just as they are all capable of beating Life. They just happened to lose some best of ones vs. great players (life was playing weird risky strats that paid off, and he did it well vs. SlayerS too, and Tassadar didn't look unbeatable or anything, was just playing well). They aren't incapable of winning or anything, they aren't worse, they have several code S players, they just didn't play their absolute best and just happened to lose. LOL you're in denial man. They couldn't even get past code B qualifiers, what makes ya think they are code S? lmao. TL does have Code S players. Hero and Taeja. And Zenio was just in Code S for them. Zenio is not Code S. Only Taeja and Hero are Code S. The sad thing is foreigner teams relying on their korean mercenaries to beat the other korean teams. Why is that sad? Those players are part of their respective teams and are being paid much better than most players in Korea. That's phenomenal for the development of the game... and they should absolutely be able to use those players in team league without it being frowned upon by others who have no clue what they're saying. Having foreigners and koreans on the same team is amazing for the game. The sad thing about it is the realization that foreigners can't compete. That's right. I would say the only foreign player that can compete at the top Korean level is Stephano. Thorzain, Naniwa, maybe Huk, are close but not quite.
Kas/Nerchio/Morrow/Mana/Hasuobs/goody (sometimes)
EDIT: Also Sheth and Ret
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The problem isn't koreans on foreign teams, its foreign teams being completely reliant on their korean players to even have a chance against teams based on korea. Without hero or taeja, TL would have been all-killed again. Its safe to say that it isn't team liquid anymore..more or less team hero/teaja because who is basically doing all the work.
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On June 01 2012 07:30 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:29 iGoTThiZ wrote:On June 01 2012 05:14 Bagration wrote:On June 01 2012 04:54 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
@ Discussion about future of TL and what kind of players to recruit:
I obviously can't tell TL where it should be headed in the future. But here's my thoughts: I would say that recruiting more Koreans, of Terran and Protoss, would not be a bad idea. TL has a strong Zerg line-up (Zenio, TLO, Ret, and Sheth can all beat Code A level players), but without fleshing out the roster with more Terran and Protoss (whether they choose foreigners or zerg), TL will be handicapped in team leagues.
Furthermore, I think TL has a responsibility to serve by its current players the best it can, and to keep an eye out on possible upcomers (Korean or foreign) as well as proven standards (like the Taeja-Hero-Zenio-Huk pick ups) - because I think all the teams out there have a responsibility to help E-sports grow by giving new, younger players a chance.
However, Liquid'Supernova would be amazing =) You can't simply just recruit players out of nowhere. They cost salaries, and additional expenses to send them abroad to tournaments, housing, etc. TL is not made out of money, and it would be hard for it to aggressively expand its roster. You talk about picking up new talent, yet also a "responsiblility to serve by its current players". I agree with you that both are important, but with limited financial resources, both tasks cannot be undertaken to the fullest. Either way, I think all this talk about recruiting more Koreans is simply the "easy way out" mentality. What happened to working more with the existing team members? Liquid also could have done much better if they had better preparation, and brought in their full roster to both matches. Woking more with existing members? Jinro has been in the team since the first GSL and gets knocked out of foreign tournaments by nobody's. They need to end this care bear attitude and get rid of unmotivated, bad players if they want to compete in Korea. It is mind boggling how such a big name team has such bad players. Lmao, "unmotivated"? You obviously know nothing about Jinro if you think he's unmotivated. Oh, the naivete of people who think "hey, a person just has to want to be good at something and therefore they automatically will be!" Also, please name the nobody that knocked Jinro out of the last few foreigner tournaments that Jinro has attended. If anything, all the evidence says the opposite: look at IPL4, for instance, where he made it to top 40 of an insanely stacked open bracket, falling only to Violet and Creator.
Here's my opinions, Jinro is just not a good enough terran anymore. TL needs to recruit a good terran player. Not only to add depth to their team, but also to get good practice partners. It is no secret that Korean terrans are terrific. To beat them, at least you gotta have somebody at that level to practice with. TL basically got demolished by zerg and protoss players in the first 2 matches but HerO finally lost to Jjakji and even if they came through, they would be facing MMA from the terran academy and a lot more terran players from other teams like MKP and MVP. How do you expect TL to pull something off against these insanely good terrans?
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That may be way too long a slump to be a slump....
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On June 01 2012 07:30 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:29 iGoTThiZ wrote:On June 01 2012 05:14 Bagration wrote:On June 01 2012 04:54 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
@ Discussion about future of TL and what kind of players to recruit:
I obviously can't tell TL where it should be headed in the future. But here's my thoughts: I would say that recruiting more Koreans, of Terran and Protoss, would not be a bad idea. TL has a strong Zerg line-up (Zenio, TLO, Ret, and Sheth can all beat Code A level players), but without fleshing out the roster with more Terran and Protoss (whether they choose foreigners or zerg), TL will be handicapped in team leagues.
Furthermore, I think TL has a responsibility to serve by its current players the best it can, and to keep an eye out on possible upcomers (Korean or foreign) as well as proven standards (like the Taeja-Hero-Zenio-Huk pick ups) - because I think all the teams out there have a responsibility to help E-sports grow by giving new, younger players a chance.
However, Liquid'Supernova would be amazing =) You can't simply just recruit players out of nowhere. They cost salaries, and additional expenses to send them abroad to tournaments, housing, etc. TL is not made out of money, and it would be hard for it to aggressively expand its roster. You talk about picking up new talent, yet also a "responsiblility to serve by its current players". I agree with you that both are important, but with limited financial resources, both tasks cannot be undertaken to the fullest. Either way, I think all this talk about recruiting more Koreans is simply the "easy way out" mentality. What happened to working more with the existing team members? Liquid also could have done much better if they had better preparation, and brought in their full roster to both matches. Woking more with existing members? Jinro has been in the team since the first GSL and gets knocked out of foreign tournaments by nobody's. They need to end this care bear attitude and get rid of unmotivated, bad players if they want to compete in Korea. It is mind boggling how such a big name team has such bad players. Lmao, "unmotivated"? You obviously know nothing about Jinro if you think he's unmotivated. Oh, the naivete of people who think "hey, a person just has to want to be good at something and therefore they automatically will be!" Also, please name the nobody that knocked Jinro out of the last few foreigner tournaments that Jinro has attended. If anything, all the evidence says the opposite: look at IPL4, for instance, where he made it to top 40 of an insanely stacked open bracket, falling only to Violet and Creator.
Damn! top 40!? that is impressive. This world is not all sunshine and rainbows, you have a guy that TL has given the opportunity to stay in Korea since the launch of this game and is performing worse than foreigners without that priveleage. As harsh as it may be, and if you look at any other sport, when you dont show results you get cut plain and simple. EG has no problem doing this and that is why they are successful. He was given the opportunity for two years now....it is time to put those resources towards other players with more potential if they want to be able to compete with other teams. You dont get a star on your cheek when you lose as bad as they are.
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On June 01 2012 07:30 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:29 iGoTThiZ wrote:On June 01 2012 05:14 Bagration wrote:On June 01 2012 04:54 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
@ Discussion about future of TL and what kind of players to recruit:
I obviously can't tell TL where it should be headed in the future. But here's my thoughts: I would say that recruiting more Koreans, of Terran and Protoss, would not be a bad idea. TL has a strong Zerg line-up (Zenio, TLO, Ret, and Sheth can all beat Code A level players), but without fleshing out the roster with more Terran and Protoss (whether they choose foreigners or zerg), TL will be handicapped in team leagues.
Furthermore, I think TL has a responsibility to serve by its current players the best it can, and to keep an eye out on possible upcomers (Korean or foreign) as well as proven standards (like the Taeja-Hero-Zenio-Huk pick ups) - because I think all the teams out there have a responsibility to help E-sports grow by giving new, younger players a chance.
However, Liquid'Supernova would be amazing =) You can't simply just recruit players out of nowhere. They cost salaries, and additional expenses to send them abroad to tournaments, housing, etc. TL is not made out of money, and it would be hard for it to aggressively expand its roster. You talk about picking up new talent, yet also a "responsiblility to serve by its current players". I agree with you that both are important, but with limited financial resources, both tasks cannot be undertaken to the fullest. Either way, I think all this talk about recruiting more Koreans is simply the "easy way out" mentality. What happened to working more with the existing team members? Liquid also could have done much better if they had better preparation, and brought in their full roster to both matches. Woking more with existing members? Jinro has been in the team since the first GSL and gets knocked out of foreign tournaments by nobody's. They need to end this care bear attitude and get rid of unmotivated, bad players if they want to compete in Korea. It is mind boggling how such a big name team has such bad players. Lmao, "unmotivated"? You obviously know nothing about Jinro if you think he's unmotivated. Oh, the naivete of people who think "hey, a person just has to want to be good at something and therefore they automatically will be!" Also, please name the nobody that knocked Jinro out of the last few foreigner tournaments that Jinro has attended. If anything, all the evidence says the opposite: look at IPL4, for instance, where he made it to top 40 of an insanely stacked open bracket, falling only to Violet and Creator.
And how many more people would Jinro have lost to if he had made it deeper into the bracket? Most of them.
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Stop arguing about Team Liquid's players' respective skill levels. It's fruitless. Stop getting butthurt over someone saying they think TL's players ('foreigners' in particular) suck. All that bear any sort of significance are the results; and the results are that they lost. What that testifies to is up to the individual to interpret. Opinions will vary; what's achieved in trying to push your opinion onto someone else? Nothing, because ironically it only serves to reinforce the other person's (opposing) opinion. This thread has devolved into pointless argument, all for the sake of...well, argument. Pathetic. Your opinions are all equally meaningless and insignificant.
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I was really hoping TLO could take down somebody, didn't expect too much from the other foreigners in TL's line-up.
Hero, Taeja, Zenio, TLO, Ret and a new recruit or two could really help TL put up a pretty solid team in the coming season(s) I think.
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EPT
