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On May 29 2012 01:46 Ylrahc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 01:36 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 29 2012 01:15 Choboo wrote:On May 29 2012 00:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 29 2012 00:33 Rhaegar_tar wrote:On May 28 2012 23:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 28 2012 23:19 Rhaegar_tar wrote:On May 28 2012 20:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 28 2012 20:21 revel8 wrote:On May 28 2012 19:30 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
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He's won $42k from Sc2 before any salary he might get from Startale (idk if they pay any salaries or not) and as he lives in a team house he has no outgoings. So the 2k post tax her would have gotten from this isn't exactly a massive deal to him, and even less to Stephano.
Sounds to me like you are making excuses for Squirtle or trying to discredit Stephano for beating Squirtle quite comfortably. Maybe you are just embarrassed for claiming earlier this weekend that Stephano does not stomp Korean Protoss players? We all make bad predictions from time-to-time. It happens. I am curious to know what your Top 10 ranking for PvZ players and where Parting places in it. Can you please share it? My loose order: 1. MC 2. Hero 3. Squirtle 4. Oz 5. Genius 6. JYP 7. Puzzle 8. Parting 9. Crank 10. Creator Stephano doesn't stomp Korean Protoss. He has wins vs some (Parting/Squirtle) and loses vs some (MC, Hero, Inori). Stomping is what MMA does to Zerg i.e he's a clear favourite vs every Zerg in the world. Stephano has a clear losing record vs MC which is not something you get from someone who stomps a certain race. The same can be said about Stephano in the past months, he's favored against any protoss in the world, and fyi he beat Hero in Blizzard cup and already beat Inori(in NASL qualifiers iirc), he also beat JYP who is quite high in your list, all of them in a very convincing way(almost stomps). Deal with it, recently Stephano is the best ZvP'er in the world right now. Compare this to this, only a biased person wouldn't say Stephano has been more impressive. MC is favoured against Stephano. That's why MC is currently 13-6 against Stephano and beat him just yesterday. Stephano has a 31% win rate vs MC, how does that make him favoured? He's only beaten MC once in five meetings. Where as DRG is 11-8 vs MC. Stephano's stats are padded by beating endless bad foreigners DRG could beat with funday monday strats. Against the best of the best DRG has the superior record. It's been over six months since DRG lost to a foreign Protoss in ZvP and in his entire career he's lost twice. Only five players have ever beaten DRG in a best 3/5/7/9 PvZ (Naniwa, Gatored, MC, Parting and JYP). No, Those 10 wins were ages ago when Stephano wasn't the beast he is nowadays in this match up. Just look at DRG's and Stepahno's record in the last months. No matter how you hate Stephano or love DRG...Objectively, Stephano has been more impressive, and don't start talking about what happened in the last 12 months, it's irrelevant. Erm what? DRG won an MLG just a few weeks ago. DRG won a Code S this year and made the final of two MLG's. Stephano hasn't made a premier LAN final since Assembly. How on earth has Stephano been more impressive than DRG? I will repeat this as apparently some people are blind to this basic fact. STEPHANO HAS NOT WON A PREMIER LAN SINCE OCTOBER 2011. THAT IS 7 MONTHS AGO. HE HAS REACHED ONLY ONE PREMIER LAN FINAL IN 2012. In the time since Stephano won his last Premier LAN DRG has achieved the following: 1st GSL Code S Season 1 1st MLG Spring Arena 1 2nd MLG Winter Championships 2nd GSL Blizzard Cup 2nd MLG Winter Arena 1 3rd MLG Providence. That is the final of 4 Premier LAN's and the winner of 2 in 2012. Including the biggest and best tournament of all -- Code S. Stephano has made 1 Premier LAN final and won 0 in 2012. But apparently Stephano has been more impressive? Stephano is a very good Code S level player but his results in 2012 are so wildly overrated when in reality he's actually done worse than quite a few players. Alive, MKP, DRG, MMA, MC, MVP, Violet have all played better than Stephano in 2012. While I agree with you if one is to list Stephano's achievements in the same time-span and manner as you listed DRG's it isn't looking too shabby. 1st Lone Star Clash 2nd Assembly 3rd MLG Spring Arena 2 3rd Red Bull LAN The only thing that's really differentiating DRG and Stephano right now is GSL results but internationally they're about the same I'd say considering Stephano has #1 international ELO. Oh Stephano has played well this year for sure. He's having a solid 2012 and cementing his place as the best foreign player. I'm not arguing he's bad, average or anything like that. He's just not better than DRG, not the best ZvP in the world and not in worlds top five players like a lot of people are claiming. ELO is really silly as Taeja, Curious, Titan and Sen are proving right now. Well I made a fast search of DRG & Stephano ZvP latest matches on TL : Stephano won all his ZvP except vs MC (2 loss 1 win) & Hero (1 loss) DRG won all his ZvP except vs MC (1 loss 1 win) & Parting (1 loss 1 win) I'd say it's quite even. As for Stephano not being top5 player in the world right now, it's nothing but a matter of taste & opinion : if you ask 100 different ppl who top 5 is, you'll get 100 different answers...either you rely on a tool that has its flaws (international ELO) or you just throw random words in the wind that have no real meaning other than expressing your opinion.
There's no need to rely on bad measures like ELO or personal opinion.
All you need is results.
The following players have done better than Stephano in 2012 because of cold, hard results on the table:
DRG: Code S Season 1, MLG Spring Arena 1.
MarineKing: MLG Winter Arena, MLG Winter Championship.
MC: HSC IV, Red Bull Lan, IEM: WC.
MVP: Code S Season 2.
MMA: Iron Squid, IEM Kiev
Violet: IEM Sao Paulo, MLG Spring Arena 2.
Alive: IPL 4.
Polt: Assembly Winter.
Those are just Premier LAN trophies in the cabinet. Many of those players have also finished second, third, fourth etc.. at multiple events but I just took wins here.
I think there's a case for Squirtle, Thorzain, Genius and Parting having played better too but they are a lot more debatable and come down to your interpretation of the value of Code S over other tournament as well as a guy like Thorzain who won a tournament but did nothing at all of note outside of that win so I will just stick with the eight players I listed who've objectively been more successful than Stephano in 2012.
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Damn you guys just love to argue for the pleasure of it...
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On May 29 2012 01:51 trinxified wrote:
Are there any VODs for the whole event?
I mainly want to see how Squirtle lost to Bomber, 3-0. Very surprising.
Thanks for anyone who shares links.
see above 
Here is Day2 http://www.twitch.tv/redbullgaming/b/319551124 although the first two quarterfinals between Stephano-Parting and SaSe-MC should pop up in day9's VOD section soon: http://day9.tv/archives/
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On May 29 2012 01:57 Rhedsa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 01:51 trinxified wrote:
Are there any VODs for the whole event?
I mainly want to see how Squirtle lost to Bomber, 3-0. Very surprising.
Thanks for anyone who shares links. see above Here is Day2 http://www.twitch.tv/redbullgaming/b/319551124 although the first two quarterfinals between Stephano-Parting and SaSe-MC should pop up in day9's VOD section soon: http://day9.tv/archives/
Thank you! I'll refer back to your post to watch majority of the event I've missed. I got too busy playing Diablo III and work lol.
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Lol Stephano fans are so funny. Last week when he finally got his first win against MC discredit their past head to head and only counted HSC. Now that MC won again (naturally) they say the HSC is NOW irrelevant to make it even lol.
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All these discussions on Stephano remind me of something : we need more high level foreigner!
Naniwa, Thorzain and Stephano are the only guys (nowdays) that provide this amount of posts.
With more foreigners able to compete with top level Korean, we should be able to have more constructive discussion.
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On May 29 2012 02:08 Bastosai wrote:
All these discussions on Stephano remind me of something : we need more high level foreigner!
Naniwa, Thorzain and Stephano are the only guys (nowdays) that provide this amount of posts.
With more foreigners able to compete with top level Korean, we should be able to have more constructive discussion.
I think Huk is often unfairly excluded from this. I know he all in's most games and goes DT's too much but he's posted better results than most foreigners in 2012 and Thorzain/Naniwa are just as inconsistant.
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Some people seen to think that Stephano is some kind of SC2 god. Were he Korean things would be different.
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On May 29 2012 01:55 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 01:46 Ylrahc wrote:On May 29 2012 01:36 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 29 2012 01:15 Choboo wrote:On May 29 2012 00:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 29 2012 00:33 Rhaegar_tar wrote:On May 28 2012 23:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 28 2012 23:19 Rhaegar_tar wrote:On May 28 2012 20:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 28 2012 20:21 revel8 wrote:
[quote]
Sounds to me like you are making excuses for Squirtle or trying to discredit Stephano for beating Squirtle quite comfortably.
Maybe you are just embarrassed for claiming earlier this weekend that Stephano does not stomp Korean Protoss players? We all make bad predictions from time-to-time. It happens.
I am curious to know what your Top 10 ranking for PvZ players and where Parting places in it. Can you please share it?
My loose order: 1. MC 2. Hero 3. Squirtle 4. Oz 5. Genius 6. JYP 7. Puzzle 8. Parting 9. Crank 10. Creator Stephano doesn't stomp Korean Protoss. He has wins vs some (Parting/Squirtle) and loses vs some (MC, Hero, Inori). Stomping is what MMA does to Zerg i.e he's a clear favourite vs every Zerg in the world. Stephano has a clear losing record vs MC which is not something you get from someone who stomps a certain race. The same can be said about Stephano in the past months, he's favored against any protoss in the world, and fyi he beat Hero in Blizzard cup and already beat Inori(in NASL qualifiers iirc), he also beat JYP who is quite high in your list, all of them in a very convincing way(almost stomps). Deal with it, recently Stephano is the best ZvP'er in the world right now. Compare this to this, only a biased person wouldn't say Stephano has been more impressive. MC is favoured against Stephano. That's why MC is currently 13-6 against Stephano and beat him just yesterday. Stephano has a 31% win rate vs MC, how does that make him favoured? He's only beaten MC once in five meetings. Where as DRG is 11-8 vs MC. Stephano's stats are padded by beating endless bad foreigners DRG could beat with funday monday strats. Against the best of the best DRG has the superior record. It's been over six months since DRG lost to a foreign Protoss in ZvP and in his entire career he's lost twice. Only five players have ever beaten DRG in a best 3/5/7/9 PvZ (Naniwa, Gatored, MC, Parting and JYP). No, Those 10 wins were ages ago when Stephano wasn't the beast he is nowadays in this match up. Just look at DRG's and Stepahno's record in the last months. No matter how you hate Stephano or love DRG...Objectively, Stephano has been more impressive, and don't start talking about what happened in the last 12 months, it's irrelevant. Erm what? DRG won an MLG just a few weeks ago. DRG won a Code S this year and made the final of two MLG's. Stephano hasn't made a premier LAN final since Assembly. How on earth has Stephano been more impressive than DRG? I will repeat this as apparently some people are blind to this basic fact. STEPHANO HAS NOT WON A PREMIER LAN SINCE OCTOBER 2011. THAT IS 7 MONTHS AGO. HE HAS REACHED ONLY ONE PREMIER LAN FINAL IN 2012. In the time since Stephano won his last Premier LAN DRG has achieved the following: 1st GSL Code S Season 1 1st MLG Spring Arena 1 2nd MLG Winter Championships 2nd GSL Blizzard Cup 2nd MLG Winter Arena 1 3rd MLG Providence. That is the final of 4 Premier LAN's and the winner of 2 in 2012. Including the biggest and best tournament of all -- Code S. Stephano has made 1 Premier LAN final and won 0 in 2012. But apparently Stephano has been more impressive? Stephano is a very good Code S level player but his results in 2012 are so wildly overrated when in reality he's actually done worse than quite a few players. Alive, MKP, DRG, MMA, MC, MVP, Violet have all played better than Stephano in 2012. While I agree with you if one is to list Stephano's achievements in the same time-span and manner as you listed DRG's it isn't looking too shabby. 1st Lone Star Clash 2nd Assembly 3rd MLG Spring Arena 2 3rd Red Bull LAN The only thing that's really differentiating DRG and Stephano right now is GSL results but internationally they're about the same I'd say considering Stephano has #1 international ELO. Oh Stephano has played well this year for sure. He's having a solid 2012 and cementing his place as the best foreign player. I'm not arguing he's bad, average or anything like that. He's just not better than DRG, not the best ZvP in the world and not in worlds top five players like a lot of people are claiming. ELO is really silly as Taeja, Curious, Titan and Sen are proving right now. Well I made a fast search of DRG & Stephano ZvP latest matches on TL : Stephano won all his ZvP except vs MC (2 loss 1 win) & Hero (1 loss) DRG won all his ZvP except vs MC (1 loss 1 win) & Parting (1 loss 1 win) I'd say it's quite even. As for Stephano not being top5 player in the world right now, it's nothing but a matter of taste & opinion : if you ask 100 different ppl who top 5 is, you'll get 100 different answers...either you rely on a tool that has its flaws (international ELO) or you just throw random words in the wind that have no real meaning other than expressing your opinion. There's no need to rely on bad measures like ELO or personal opinion. All you need is results. The following players have done better than Stephano in 2012 because of cold, hard results on the table: DRG: Code S Season 1, MLG Spring Arena 1. MarineKing: MLG Winter Arena, MLG Winter Championship. MC: HSC IV, Red Bull Lan, IEM: WC. MVP: Code S Season 2. MMA: Iron Squid, IEM Kiev Violet: IEM Sao Paulo, MLG Spring Arena 2. Alive: IPL 4. Polt: Assembly Winter. Those are just Premier LAN trophies in the cabinet. Many of those players have also finished second, third, fourth etc.. at multiple events but I just took wins here. I think there's a case for Squirtle, Thorzain, Genius and Parting having played better too but they are a lot more debatable and come down to your interpretation of the value of Code S over other tournament as well as a guy like Thorzain who won a tournament but did nothing at all of note outside of that win so I will just stick with the eight players I listed who've objectively been more successful than Stephano in 2012.
Hm Stephano won Lone star Clash and beating Polt there. Plus Thorzain can be on your list with his recent DH victory. But to be fair overral Stephano had had a better result than Polt if we count their places in tournament (Stephano: 2nd Assebly winter, 1st Lone Star Clash, 5th IPL4, 3rd MLG Spring Arena, 3rd Red Bull Lan).
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On May 29 2012 02:17 Kkxtrouble wrote:
Some people seen to think that Stephano is some kind of SC2 god. Were he Korean things would be different.
But that's exactly the point, that's what makes Stephano unique.
He doesn't live in a team house and he doesn't train in Korea. He practices at home, figures things out for himself and tries them out on the EU ladder. Doing that, he completely dominates the people he practices with, the EU/NA scene, and is able to compete with the very best Koreans, challenging them for tournament victories, even though he practices under much worse conditions. He is able to do what no-one else can.
That is what makes him special. Imagine there was no Korean scene. Stephano would be considered the SC2 god. Now, instead, he is to be considered just one among a pantheon of Gods
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On May 29 2012 02:09 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 02:08 Bastosai wrote:
All these discussions on Stephano remind me of something : we need more high level foreigner!
Naniwa, Thorzain and Stephano are the only guys (nowdays) that provide this amount of posts.
With more foreigners able to compete with top level Korean, we should be able to have more constructive discussion. I think Huk is often unfairly excluded from this. I know he all in's most games and goes DT's too much but he's posted better results than most foreigners in 2012 and Thorzain/Naniwa are just as inconsistant.
You're right, I excluded Huk because of my short memory.
But overall, when I say top level foreigner it's someone able to defeat high level Korean. To make it clear, I appreciate Stephano and Thorzain (and Naniwa/Huk but I lack knowledge on their results) because they are able to defeat high level Korean players that has already beaten them before.
Polt and MC are famous example for Stephano but we can add Violet now. Every time Stephano will be facing one of these 3 players, we can be sure to have a decent and interesting match.
That's, in my opinion, the real value of high level player.
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On May 29 2012 02:30 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 02:17 Kkxtrouble wrote:
Some people seen to think that Stephano is some kind of SC2 god. Were he Korean things would be different. But that's exactly the point, that's what makes Stephano unique. He doesn't live in a team house and he doesn't train in Korea. He practices at home, figures things out for himself and tries them out on the EU ladder. Doing that, he completely dominates the people he practices with, the EU/NA scene, and is able to compete with the very best Koreans, challenging them for tournament victories, even though he practices under much worse conditions. He is able to do what no-one else can. That is what makes him special. Imagine there was no Korean scene. Stephano would be considered the SC2 god. Now, instead, he is just to be considered one among a pantheon of Gods
Violet also manages to that (in fact, I'd say he's even more impressive because he's in NA which is shitter than EU - face it, it's the truth) so that isn't the only reason why the community is infatuated by Stephano.
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On May 29 2012 02:25 JohnMatrix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 01:55 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 29 2012 01:46 Ylrahc wrote:On May 29 2012 01:36 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 29 2012 01:15 Choboo wrote:On May 29 2012 00:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 29 2012 00:33 Rhaegar_tar wrote:On May 28 2012 23:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 28 2012 23:19 Rhaegar_tar wrote:On May 28 2012 20:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
[quote]
My loose order:
1. MC
2. Hero
3. Squirtle
4. Oz
5. Genius
6. JYP
7. Puzzle
8. Parting
9. Crank
10. Creator
Stephano doesn't stomp Korean Protoss. He has wins vs some (Parting/Squirtle) and loses vs some (MC, Hero, Inori).
Stomping is what MMA does to Zerg i.e he's a clear favourite vs every Zerg in the world.
Stephano has a clear losing record vs MC which is not something you get from someone who stomps a certain race.
The same can be said about Stephano in the past months, he's favored against any protoss in the world, and fyi he beat Hero in Blizzard cup and already beat Inori(in NASL qualifiers iirc), he also beat JYP who is quite high in your list, all of them in a very convincing way(almost stomps). Deal with it, recently Stephano is the best ZvP'er in the world right now. Compare this to this, only a biased person wouldn't say Stephano has been more impressive. MC is favoured against Stephano. That's why MC is currently 13-6 against Stephano and beat him just yesterday. Stephano has a 31% win rate vs MC, how does that make him favoured? He's only beaten MC once in five meetings. Where as DRG is 11-8 vs MC. Stephano's stats are padded by beating endless bad foreigners DRG could beat with funday monday strats. Against the best of the best DRG has the superior record. It's been over six months since DRG lost to a foreign Protoss in ZvP and in his entire career he's lost twice. Only five players have ever beaten DRG in a best 3/5/7/9 PvZ (Naniwa, Gatored, MC, Parting and JYP). No, Those 10 wins were ages ago when Stephano wasn't the beast he is nowadays in this match up. Just look at DRG's and Stepahno's record in the last months. No matter how you hate Stephano or love DRG...Objectively, Stephano has been more impressive, and don't start talking about what happened in the last 12 months, it's irrelevant. Erm what? DRG won an MLG just a few weeks ago. DRG won a Code S this year and made the final of two MLG's. Stephano hasn't made a premier LAN final since Assembly. How on earth has Stephano been more impressive than DRG? I will repeat this as apparently some people are blind to this basic fact. STEPHANO HAS NOT WON A PREMIER LAN SINCE OCTOBER 2011. THAT IS 7 MONTHS AGO. HE HAS REACHED ONLY ONE PREMIER LAN FINAL IN 2012. In the time since Stephano won his last Premier LAN DRG has achieved the following: 1st GSL Code S Season 1 1st MLG Spring Arena 1 2nd MLG Winter Championships 2nd GSL Blizzard Cup 2nd MLG Winter Arena 1 3rd MLG Providence. That is the final of 4 Premier LAN's and the winner of 2 in 2012. Including the biggest and best tournament of all -- Code S. Stephano has made 1 Premier LAN final and won 0 in 2012. But apparently Stephano has been more impressive? Stephano is a very good Code S level player but his results in 2012 are so wildly overrated when in reality he's actually done worse than quite a few players. Alive, MKP, DRG, MMA, MC, MVP, Violet have all played better than Stephano in 2012. While I agree with you if one is to list Stephano's achievements in the same time-span and manner as you listed DRG's it isn't looking too shabby. 1st Lone Star Clash 2nd Assembly 3rd MLG Spring Arena 2 3rd Red Bull LAN The only thing that's really differentiating DRG and Stephano right now is GSL results but internationally they're about the same I'd say considering Stephano has #1 international ELO. Oh Stephano has played well this year for sure. He's having a solid 2012 and cementing his place as the best foreign player. I'm not arguing he's bad, average or anything like that. He's just not better than DRG, not the best ZvP in the world and not in worlds top five players like a lot of people are claiming. ELO is really silly as Taeja, Curious, Titan and Sen are proving right now. Well I made a fast search of DRG & Stephano ZvP latest matches on TL : Stephano won all his ZvP except vs MC (2 loss 1 win) & Hero (1 loss) DRG won all his ZvP except vs MC (1 loss 1 win) & Parting (1 loss 1 win) I'd say it's quite even. As for Stephano not being top5 player in the world right now, it's nothing but a matter of taste & opinion : if you ask 100 different ppl who top 5 is, you'll get 100 different answers...either you rely on a tool that has its flaws (international ELO) or you just throw random words in the wind that have no real meaning other than expressing your opinion. There's no need to rely on bad measures like ELO or personal opinion. All you need is results. The following players have done better than Stephano in 2012 because of cold, hard results on the table: DRG: Code S Season 1, MLG Spring Arena 1. MarineKing: MLG Winter Arena, MLG Winter Championship. MC: HSC IV, Red Bull Lan, IEM: WC. MVP: Code S Season 2. MMA: Iron Squid, IEM Kiev Violet: IEM Sao Paulo, MLG Spring Arena 2. Alive: IPL 4. Polt: Assembly Winter. Those are just Premier LAN trophies in the cabinet. Many of those players have also finished second, third, fourth etc.. at multiple events but I just took wins here. I think there's a case for Squirtle, Thorzain, Genius and Parting having played better too but they are a lot more debatable and come down to your interpretation of the value of Code S over other tournament as well as a guy like Thorzain who won a tournament but did nothing at all of note outside of that win so I will just stick with the eight players I listed who've objectively been more successful than Stephano in 2012. Hm Stephano won Lone star Clash and beating Polt there. Plus Thorzain can be on your list with his recent DH victory. But to be fair overral Stephano had had a better result than Polt if we count their places in tournament (Stephano: 2nd Assebly winter, 1st Lone Star Clash, 5th IPL4, 3rd MLG Spring Arena, 3rd Red Bull Lan).
Polt
1st Assembly Winter
2nd Dreamhack Stockholm
2nd Lone Star Clash
5th MLG Spring Arena 2.
7th IPL 4
13-16th MLG Winter Championships (from the Open bracket)
He definitely edges it over Stephano by actually winning a Premier Tournament and finishing 2nd in another.
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Stephano has clearly improved since last year. I think Stephano has shown he can certainly cause massive problems for every Korean Protoss he faces. Only MC really has a great record against him but Stephano has really closed the gap on MC. Previously he could not get close to him but now he can push MC all the way and take series from him. MC took the victory in this tournament, but you could see it was a really close series - unlike say Bomber vs Squirtle.
Beating 8 different Koreans in just over a week is not bad at all.
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On May 29 2012 02:30 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 02:17 Kkxtrouble wrote:
Some people seen to think that Stephano is some kind of SC2 god. Were he Korean things would be different. But that's exactly the point, that's what makes Stephano unique. He doesn't live in a team house and he doesn't train in Korea. He practices at home, figures things out for himself and tries them out on the EU ladder. Doing that, he completely dominates the people he practices with, the EU/NA scene, and is able to compete with the very best Koreans, challenging them for tournament victories, even though he practices under much worse conditions. He is able to do what no-one else can. That is what makes him special. Imagine there was no Korean scene. Stephano would be considered the SC2 god. Now, instead, he is to be considered just one among a pantheon of Gods
If Koreans didn't play this game Stephano would be a bonjwa by now.
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On May 29 2012 02:33 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 02:25 JohnMatrix wrote:On May 29 2012 01:55 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 29 2012 01:46 Ylrahc wrote:On May 29 2012 01:36 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 29 2012 01:15 Choboo wrote:On May 29 2012 00:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 29 2012 00:33 Rhaegar_tar wrote:On May 28 2012 23:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 28 2012 23:19 Rhaegar_tar wrote:[quote] The same can be said about Stephano in the past months, he's favored against any protoss in the world, and fyi he beat Hero in Blizzard cup and already beat Inori(in NASL qualifiers iirc), he also beat JYP who is quite high in your list, all of them in a very convincing way(almost stomps). Deal with it, recently Stephano is the best ZvP'er in the world right now. Compare this to this, only a biased person wouldn't say Stephano has been more impressive. MC is favoured against Stephano. That's why MC is currently 13-6 against Stephano and beat him just yesterday. Stephano has a 31% win rate vs MC, how does that make him favoured? He's only beaten MC once in five meetings. Where as DRG is 11-8 vs MC. Stephano's stats are padded by beating endless bad foreigners DRG could beat with funday monday strats. Against the best of the best DRG has the superior record. It's been over six months since DRG lost to a foreign Protoss in ZvP and in his entire career he's lost twice. Only five players have ever beaten DRG in a best 3/5/7/9 PvZ (Naniwa, Gatored, MC, Parting and JYP). No, Those 10 wins were ages ago when Stephano wasn't the beast he is nowadays in this match up. Just look at DRG's and Stepahno's record in the last months. No matter how you hate Stephano or love DRG...Objectively, Stephano has been more impressive, and don't start talking about what happened in the last 12 months, it's irrelevant. Erm what? DRG won an MLG just a few weeks ago. DRG won a Code S this year and made the final of two MLG's. Stephano hasn't made a premier LAN final since Assembly. How on earth has Stephano been more impressive than DRG? I will repeat this as apparently some people are blind to this basic fact. STEPHANO HAS NOT WON A PREMIER LAN SINCE OCTOBER 2011. THAT IS 7 MONTHS AGO. HE HAS REACHED ONLY ONE PREMIER LAN FINAL IN 2012. In the time since Stephano won his last Premier LAN DRG has achieved the following: 1st GSL Code S Season 1 1st MLG Spring Arena 1 2nd MLG Winter Championships 2nd GSL Blizzard Cup 2nd MLG Winter Arena 1 3rd MLG Providence. That is the final of 4 Premier LAN's and the winner of 2 in 2012. Including the biggest and best tournament of all -- Code S. Stephano has made 1 Premier LAN final and won 0 in 2012. But apparently Stephano has been more impressive? Stephano is a very good Code S level player but his results in 2012 are so wildly overrated when in reality he's actually done worse than quite a few players. Alive, MKP, DRG, MMA, MC, MVP, Violet have all played better than Stephano in 2012. While I agree with you if one is to list Stephano's achievements in the same time-span and manner as you listed DRG's it isn't looking too shabby. 1st Lone Star Clash 2nd Assembly 3rd MLG Spring Arena 2 3rd Red Bull LAN The only thing that's really differentiating DRG and Stephano right now is GSL results but internationally they're about the same I'd say considering Stephano has #1 international ELO. Oh Stephano has played well this year for sure. He's having a solid 2012 and cementing his place as the best foreign player. I'm not arguing he's bad, average or anything like that. He's just not better than DRG, not the best ZvP in the world and not in worlds top five players like a lot of people are claiming. ELO is really silly as Taeja, Curious, Titan and Sen are proving right now. Well I made a fast search of DRG & Stephano ZvP latest matches on TL : Stephano won all his ZvP except vs MC (2 loss 1 win) & Hero (1 loss) DRG won all his ZvP except vs MC (1 loss 1 win) & Parting (1 loss 1 win) I'd say it's quite even. As for Stephano not being top5 player in the world right now, it's nothing but a matter of taste & opinion : if you ask 100 different ppl who top 5 is, you'll get 100 different answers...either you rely on a tool that has its flaws (international ELO) or you just throw random words in the wind that have no real meaning other than expressing your opinion. There's no need to rely on bad measures like ELO or personal opinion. All you need is results. The following players have done better than Stephano in 2012 because of cold, hard results on the table: DRG: Code S Season 1, MLG Spring Arena 1. MarineKing: MLG Winter Arena, MLG Winter Championship. MC: HSC IV, Red Bull Lan, IEM: WC. MVP: Code S Season 2. MMA: Iron Squid, IEM Kiev Violet: IEM Sao Paulo, MLG Spring Arena 2. Alive: IPL 4. Polt: Assembly Winter. Those are just Premier LAN trophies in the cabinet. Many of those players have also finished second, third, fourth etc.. at multiple events but I just took wins here. I think there's a case for Squirtle, Thorzain, Genius and Parting having played better too but they are a lot more debatable and come down to your interpretation of the value of Code S over other tournament as well as a guy like Thorzain who won a tournament but did nothing at all of note outside of that win so I will just stick with the eight players I listed who've objectively been more successful than Stephano in 2012. Hm Stephano won Lone star Clash and beating Polt there. Plus Thorzain can be on your list with his recent DH victory. But to be fair overral Stephano had had a better result than Polt if we count their places in tournament (Stephano: 2nd Assebly winter, 1st Lone Star Clash, 5th IPL4, 3rd MLG Spring Arena, 3rd Red Bull Lan). Polt 1st Assembly Winter 2nd Dreamhack Stockholm 2nd Lone Star Clash 5th MLG Spring Arena 2. 7th IPL 4 13-16th MLG Winter Championships (from the Open bracket) He definitely edges it over Stephano by actually winning a Premier Tournament and finishing 2nd in another.
Ah yes I totally forgot his second place at DH, you're right.
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Why argue about which Zerg is better than the other when we should rejoice that two different Zerg playstyles are both valid at defeating Protoss?
Want something more aggressive and in your face? Stephano.
Want something strong and unstoppable like a freight train charging heartlessly towards you? DRG
Saying one is better that the other is silly.
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On May 29 2012 01:55 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 01:46 Ylrahc wrote:On May 29 2012 01:36 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 29 2012 01:15 Choboo wrote:On May 29 2012 00:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 29 2012 00:33 Rhaegar_tar wrote:On May 28 2012 23:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 28 2012 23:19 Rhaegar_tar wrote:On May 28 2012 20:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 28 2012 20:21 revel8 wrote:
[quote]
Sounds to me like you are making excuses for Squirtle or trying to discredit Stephano for beating Squirtle quite comfortably.
Maybe you are just embarrassed for claiming earlier this weekend that Stephano does not stomp Korean Protoss players? We all make bad predictions from time-to-time. It happens.
I am curious to know what your Top 10 ranking for PvZ players and where Parting places in it. Can you please share it?
My loose order: 1. MC 2. Hero 3. Squirtle 4. Oz 5. Genius 6. JYP 7. Puzzle 8. Parting 9. Crank 10. Creator Stephano doesn't stomp Korean Protoss. He has wins vs some (Parting/Squirtle) and loses vs some (MC, Hero, Inori). Stomping is what MMA does to Zerg i.e he's a clear favourite vs every Zerg in the world. Stephano has a clear losing record vs MC which is not something you get from someone who stomps a certain race. The same can be said about Stephano in the past months, he's favored against any protoss in the world, and fyi he beat Hero in Blizzard cup and already beat Inori(in NASL qualifiers iirc), he also beat JYP who is quite high in your list, all of them in a very convincing way(almost stomps). Deal with it, recently Stephano is the best ZvP'er in the world right now. Compare this to this, only a biased person wouldn't say Stephano has been more impressive. MC is favoured against Stephano. That's why MC is currently 13-6 against Stephano and beat him just yesterday. Stephano has a 31% win rate vs MC, how does that make him favoured? He's only beaten MC once in five meetings. Where as DRG is 11-8 vs MC. Stephano's stats are padded by beating endless bad foreigners DRG could beat with funday monday strats. Against the best of the best DRG has the superior record. It's been over six months since DRG lost to a foreign Protoss in ZvP and in his entire career he's lost twice. Only five players have ever beaten DRG in a best 3/5/7/9 PvZ (Naniwa, Gatored, MC, Parting and JYP). No, Those 10 wins were ages ago when Stephano wasn't the beast he is nowadays in this match up. Just look at DRG's and Stepahno's record in the last months. No matter how you hate Stephano or love DRG...Objectively, Stephano has been more impressive, and don't start talking about what happened in the last 12 months, it's irrelevant. Erm what? DRG won an MLG just a few weeks ago. DRG won a Code S this year and made the final of two MLG's. Stephano hasn't made a premier LAN final since Assembly. How on earth has Stephano been more impressive than DRG? I will repeat this as apparently some people are blind to this basic fact. STEPHANO HAS NOT WON A PREMIER LAN SINCE OCTOBER 2011. THAT IS 7 MONTHS AGO. HE HAS REACHED ONLY ONE PREMIER LAN FINAL IN 2012. In the time since Stephano won his last Premier LAN DRG has achieved the following: 1st GSL Code S Season 1 1st MLG Spring Arena 1 2nd MLG Winter Championships 2nd GSL Blizzard Cup 2nd MLG Winter Arena 1 3rd MLG Providence. That is the final of 4 Premier LAN's and the winner of 2 in 2012. Including the biggest and best tournament of all -- Code S. Stephano has made 1 Premier LAN final and won 0 in 2012. But apparently Stephano has been more impressive? Stephano is a very good Code S level player but his results in 2012 are so wildly overrated when in reality he's actually done worse than quite a few players. Alive, MKP, DRG, MMA, MC, MVP, Violet have all played better than Stephano in 2012. While I agree with you if one is to list Stephano's achievements in the same time-span and manner as you listed DRG's it isn't looking too shabby. 1st Lone Star Clash 2nd Assembly 3rd MLG Spring Arena 2 3rd Red Bull LAN The only thing that's really differentiating DRG and Stephano right now is GSL results but internationally they're about the same I'd say considering Stephano has #1 international ELO. Oh Stephano has played well this year for sure. He's having a solid 2012 and cementing his place as the best foreign player. I'm not arguing he's bad, average or anything like that. He's just not better than DRG, not the best ZvP in the world and not in worlds top five players like a lot of people are claiming. ELO is really silly as Taeja, Curious, Titan and Sen are proving right now. Well I made a fast search of DRG & Stephano ZvP latest matches on TL : Stephano won all his ZvP except vs MC (2 loss 1 win) & Hero (1 loss) DRG won all his ZvP except vs MC (1 loss 1 win) & Parting (1 loss 1 win) I'd say it's quite even. As for Stephano not being top5 player in the world right now, it's nothing but a matter of taste & opinion : if you ask 100 different ppl who top 5 is, you'll get 100 different answers...either you rely on a tool that has its flaws (international ELO) or you just throw random words in the wind that have no real meaning other than expressing your opinion. There's no need to rely on bad measures like ELO or personal opinion. All you need is results. The following players have done better than Stephano in 2012 because of cold, hard results on the table: DRG: Code S Season 1, MLG Spring Arena 1. MarineKing: MLG Winter Arena, MLG Winter Championship. MC: HSC IV, Red Bull Lan, IEM: WC. MVP: Code S Season 2. MMA: Iron Squid, IEM Kiev Violet: IEM Sao Paulo, MLG Spring Arena 2. Alive: IPL 4. Polt: Assembly Winter. Those are just Premier LAN trophies in the cabinet. Many of those players have also finished second, third, fourth etc.. at multiple events but I just took wins here. I think there's a case for Squirtle, Thorzain, Genius and Parting having played better too but they are a lot more debatable and come down to your interpretation of the value of Code S over other tournament as well as a guy like Thorzain who won a tournament but did nothing at all of note outside of that win so I will just stick with the eight players I listed who've objectively been more successful than Stephano in 2012.
I don't give a damn about trophies, I give a damn about consistency and ranks in tournaments they participated in. Stephano has participated in more tournaments and has shown more consistency than quite a few people in your list. Does it make them worse ? Does it make him better ? Matter of opinion, ELO says he is about as good, that's all.
Why do I care about consistency ? Because it's what shows if you're good in all matchups, or in only 1 or 2 of them. It's "easy" to win one tournament because you only get your best matchup against opponents that are not that good at it, it's "harder" to place well in most tournaments you enter because you have a versatile play.
As for top5 top10 top20, as I said previously, it just has no sense. Most if not all of the best players in the world can win or lose against each other depending on preparation, current form, how they slept the previous night etc. Violet completely raped MLG 1 week ago and got eliminated w/o much glory at Red Bull Tournament. MC did the opposite (well he did not so bad at MLG ^^). Stephano ranked well in both of them. It's a matter of opinion, and nothing but that, to judge who is better among those 3. The ONLY way to rank them is ELO, and I do agree it has to many flaws to be really reliable.
And if you look at international ELO, even with its flaws, it does make some sense does it ?
Only koreans (except Stephano) in top18, DRG MKP MC in top5 (most successful koreans lately imho), Nestea MVP not that far behind (not bad considering they don't participate much in foreign tournaments), MMA a bit behind after his recent slight issues...So why should it be completely wrong about Stephano ? He does well in all 3 matchups, is consistent in his play, can win against the best players in the world, so he is ranked #1. It's how ELO works. ELO doesn't give a damn about how many trophies you won  And ofc that doesn't mean he would win in boX against all players behind him, not even that he would be favorite. That means that if he enters a tournament, he is the most likely to go far, and so far, he hasn't failed to deliver.
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On May 29 2012 02:17 Kkxtrouble wrote:
Some people seen to think that Stephano is some kind of SC2 god. Were he Korean things would be different.
pretty much.
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EPT
