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Red Bull Battlegrounds Live Updates - Day 2 - Page 271
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ColonelSeitan
United States78 Posts
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Desert Fox
United States352 Posts
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vinsky
Poland48 Posts
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ColonelSeitan
United States78 Posts
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On May 29 2012 03:50 tdt wrote: I doubt it. Even Korean pros think he's fantastic. Sure he may not win but you can't win them all in SC2. Game has never had anyone people just say they are impossible to beat yet like in BW but he's near top of players who can win any matchup. I think it's great how jaedong looks up to stephano's play. they are probably going to meet at MLG, and stephano will be like "who?" | ||
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ensign_lee
United States1178 Posts
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revel8
United Kingdom3022 Posts
On May 29 2012 06:39 ensign_lee wrote: So where are these vods, specifically the ones that Husky solo casted for Group C? http://www.twitch.tv/redbullsc2 Here ya go. The first game between Ostijoy and Bomber was great fun. If you have ever wanted to see a Planetary Fortress fight against a Hatchery then this is the game to watch! | ||
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Shaddar
675 Posts
On May 29 2012 04:44 revel8 wrote: And those people are rightly mocked. As are those who continue to attempt to belittle Stephano's abilities. Half the reason people do that is because he keeps getting massively overhyped, 35% of people picked him to win this tourney, compared to 11% for MC...and I'll bet if he was Korean there's no way he would have been seen as the favourite to win | ||
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sjperera
Canada349 Posts
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
But having said that, Stephano has a couple of annoying weaknesses that prevent me from putting him at the same level as DRG and Nestea. One of these is his dogmatic adherence to a single build order and style in each match up, which he adapts for specific opponents - ie Polt, MC - but never departs from. Stephano does not throw curve balls, and at the highest level of competition, that allows his opponents to cut corners and play the opponent instead of the game. Take his games vs. MC, both in the IPL fight club Bo9 and in the Red Bull LAN. Through the course of these games, MC played half a dozen different strategies, from single base all-ins, to two base all-ins, to three base all-ins, and - yes - to macro games. Stephano, though? He played about two - a three hatch roach ling style, and a three hatch roach ling infestor style. Zerg is reactive, but DRG and Nestea both understand how to mind game their opponents and to employ several different strategies through the course of a series. Indeed, with Nestea a lot of his victories come from tricking his opponent into thinking he's playing one style while he's playing another. The game he played vs. Protoss in one of the MLGs, where he canceled his third hatch after the Protoss scouted it, and then roach baneling busted the Protoss's front while the Protoss was preparing to go up against three hatch, is a great example. Stephano never makes these plays, and while it is amazing that he's able to have the results that he does without mind games, it is one of those tools that give you that extra little edge - and all Stephano needs is that extra little edge. One game where he tricks MC, that's all it took. Stephano's overall success these days is around that of a Symbol and a Violet - though I think Violet has had better success in 2012, etc. But success doesn't tell the whole story. Stephano does not have the benefit of a team house. He does not have a coach feeding him strategies and intel about his opponents. He does not have the backing of players of equal caliber. What he was able to achieve, he achieved without what other pros of his caliber had. The one other player who was forced to do the same, I think, is Violet, who being an ex-WC 3 player - the same as Stephano - eschews the training regimen of BW -> SC 2 pros. But Violet is not the Zerg pioneer that Stephano is. What Stephano has done for Zerg far exceeds that of other Zergs besides Nestea and DRG. | ||
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sickle
New Zealand656 Posts
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revel8
United Kingdom3022 Posts
On May 29 2012 14:33 Azarkon wrote: I'm care a lot about Stephano. He's the best talent the foreigner's scene has produced. His mechanics, including his effective APM, is top Code S level, and his Zerg play is pioneering and inspiring in a way that is far beyond what other foreigners have managed after Beta. In this, he is unique. But having said that, Stephano has a couple of annoying weaknesses that prevent me from putting him at the same level as DRG and Nestea. One of these is his dogmatic adherence to a single build order and style in each match up, which he adapts for specific opponents - ie Polt, MC - but never departs from. Stephano does not throw curve balls, and at the highest level of competition, that allows his opponents to cut corners and play the opponent instead of the game. Take his games vs. MC, both in the IPL fight club Bo9 and in the Red Bull LAN. Through the course of these games, MC played half a dozen different strategies, from single base all-ins, to two base all-ins, to three base all-ins, and - yes - to macro games. Stephano, though? He played about two - a three hatch roach ling style, and a three hatch roach ling infestor style. Zerg is reactive, but DRG and Nestea both understand how to mind game their opponents and to employ several different strategies through the course of a series. Indeed, with Nestea a lot of his victories come from tricking his opponent into thinking he's playing one style while he's playing another. The game he played vs. Protoss in one of the MLGs, where he canceled his third hatch after the Protoss scouted it, and then roach baneling busted the Protoss's front while the Protoss was preparing to go up against three hatch, is a great example. Stephano never makes these plays, and while it is amazing that he's able to have the results that he does without mind games, it is one of those tools that give you that extra little edge - and all Stephano needs is that extra little edge. One game where he tricks MC, that's all it took. . I agree with your overall points but you are mistaken on a few things. During the Fight Club Bo9, Stephano did employ the baneling bust strategy after faking a third expansion (Game 7 on Sanshorn) and he went mass mutas against MC (Game 6). So it is not accurate to claim he never makes these plays. He does not make them often but he does have them in his repertoire. MC is a player who has historically given Stephano a lot of trouble, indeed most of his losses against Korean Protoss have come against MC. However in the last month or so, they have looked pretty even with MC winning 8 and losing 7 maps. So Stephano has really improved and closed the gap. Although Stephano has name-checked Hero and Squirtle as being scary opponents, they have not given him as much trouble in LANS so far albeit over a very small number of games. I would like to see him play OZ and Killer and Alicia as they are yet to face him in a LAN. Maybe MLG Spring Championship could bring us these clashes. | ||
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AIOL!
France962 Posts
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Sinedd
Poland7052 Posts
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revel8
United Kingdom3022 Posts
On May 29 2012 10:13 Shaddar wrote: Half the reason people do that is because he keeps getting massively overhyped, 35% of people picked him to win this tourney, compared to 11% for MC...and I'll bet if he was Korean there's no way he would have been seen as the favourite to win I disagree about the reasoning. Stephano has had people scoffing at his potential since he became a Pro. There was a thread about his ladder run in EU. Haters scoffed at him and said he would get owned at LANS. He won IPL3 and the haters said he only won because his opponents were unprepared for his style. He struggled against Korean Terrans at MLG and the haters said he has been found out by the opponents he beat a week or so before at IPL3. He won ESWC and the haters said that he would be found out soon. He went to Korea for Blizzard Cup and within a week had smashed into the Korean GM Ladder beating ForGG, Sage, Bomber repeatedly. Haters said ladder does not matter and that Koreans are not playing those games to win because they are saving their strategies for LANS. They said he would get owned at Blizzard Cup. He went 2-2 at Blizzard Cup and went out despite having the same score as MC (due to the head-to-head). Haters said he only beat Hero because Hero was having an off-day - clearly untrue. Whenever Stephano beats a Korean his bashers make attempts to belittle this achievement by disrespecting these opponents. Oh Bomber is not very good, Puma is average, Polt is just OK, JYP is not so good, Ryung is no good etc. No-one else gets this level of disrespect. When Jjakji rose to win GSL did haters slag off the opponents he defeated? Did people disrespect DRG's opponents last year? Stephano has not gone away, he has improved during 2012. The haters have been embarrassed by their predictions of his failure being wide of the mark and yet some are still clinging to them despite the ever-growing evidence that Stephano is actually pretty good at SC2. Now they are reduced to saying he will fail in GSL due to the preparations aspect or that DRG is still better at ZvP in an attempt to put down Stephano. They should try and be objective and acknowledge that their intial doubts have been proven unfounded. Haters should just hold up their hands and admit they were wrong in their predictions about Stephano being a flash in the pan. SC2 has only been around for a few years, but already we can see new players have emerged during that time. During Beta no-one had heard of DRG, Stephano, Jjakji, Squirtle or Bomber. It was all about Tester, Fruitdealer, Idra and MakaPrime. The players at the top have changed somewhat although some players like MC and MKP have endured. Some players have risen and some players have fallen. Even the game has changed, with new maps and new patches and a new meta-game. Stephano gets a lot of attention and hype because he is a Foreigner tearing up the scene. If there were other Foreigners doing this to the same extent, then this attention would be shared. So it is up to other players to raise their game. Maybe Thorzain, Ret, Mana, Sheth or Illusion could go up a gear. Who knows? I don't know the future, but I do know that if someone I had not anticipated started doing really well, I would not ignore the evidence and bash them due to outdated predictions. Stephano is good for the foreign SC2 scene. He gives hope to other Foreign pros and his popularity helps sustain Foreign Tournaments. Even if you don't like him personally, that should be acknowledged. Of course some want the Foreign scene to die. Not me. I think it is great having IPL, MLG, DreamHack, IronSquid, IEM, Assembly etc plus all the numerous mini-tournaments. It is my understanding that Boxer's popularity helped establish the BW scene in Korea. If Stephano's popularity can help establish a sustaining SC2 Foreign Scene then that is certainly a good thing. I am not crediting Stephano with being the Foreign Boxer of SC2, but if the Foreign Scene becomes sustaining and growing in popularity then all SC2 pros and fans will benefit. Stephano is helping with that. | ||
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Farone
Netherlands1219 Posts
On May 29 2012 14:33 Azarkon wrote: Stephano's overall success these days is around that of a Symbol and a Violet - though I think Violet has had better success in 2012, etc. But success doesn't tell the whole story. Stephano does not have the benefit of a team house. He does not have a coach feeding him strategies and intel about his opponents. He does not have the backing of players of equal caliber. What he was able to achieve, he achieved without what other pros of his caliber had. The one other player who was forced to do the same, I think, is Violet, who being an ex-WC 3 player - the same as Stephano - eschews the training regimen of BW -> SC 2 pros. But Violet is not the Zerg pioneer that Stephano is. What Stephano has done for Zerg far exceeds that of other Zergs besides Nestea and DRG. Stephano does have a gaming house from Millenium, and he is going to Korea soon to train at the TSL house | ||
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Dawg_Snow
France425 Posts
edit : nice post revel8 | ||
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Black17
France435 Posts
It's true that vs P he has 2 basic guidelines that are pretty much always the same depending on the map: - The (in)famous 12 min roach push timing where he wants to finish the game early or to take a significant advantage in early game so that he can play greedy and tech very fast to bl (one way to see that he's doing this build is that he will upgrade range missile attack as soon as evo comes up). - On bigger maps/maps with small chokes he will aim at going directly to late game (ie upgrading ground melee directly) while trying to delay Protoss's 3rd as long as possible with zerglings, making roaches just to defend a potential attack in the mid game. But while following those guidelines, he always adjusts to what the opponent does and that's the beauty of his play. For me the little weaknesses of his ZvP matchup are in his macro-oriented guideline: MC basically beat him at RBB (on the 2 last games) by attacking during his hive transition where he only has roaches/infestors/zerglings to defend versus collossi, upgrated blink stalkers (and sometimes even archons). That's because he was unable to delay the 3rd of MC in those games. So I'd say that if he goes into a lategame perspective and is unable to delay the protoss's 3rd he needs to find a safe way to defend the "pre-hive" timing (ofc that was MC doing it so it was really powerful). Maybe massing spine ? In those games he lost with quite a few minerals banked up. He used to build lots of spines to prevent this timing from killing him, I don't know why he stopped doing it (it's true that colossi will kill your spines taking no damage but this can give you the extra time you need to get those bl out). | ||
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revel8
United Kingdom3022 Posts
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Benjamin99
4176 Posts
On May 29 2012 10:13 Shaddar wrote: Half the reason people do that is because he keeps getting massively overhyped, 35% of people picked him to win this tourney, compared to 11% for MC...and I'll bet if he was Korean there's no way he would have been seen as the favourite to win You cant not overhype one of the best players in the world. Its like saying DRG and MVP are overhyped. I felt he should have won this tournament but MC got him congratz to MC. On May 29 2012 20:24 revel8 wrote: + Show Spoiler + I disagree about the reasoning. Stephano has had people scoffing at his potential since he became a Pro. There was a thread about his ladder run in EU. Haters scoffed at him and said he would get owned at LANS. He won IPL3 and the haters said he only won because his opponents were unprepared for his style. He struggled against Korean Terrans at MLG and the haters said he has been found out by the opponents he beat a week or so before at IPL3. He won ESWC and the haters said that he would be found out soon. He went to Korea for Blizzard Cup and within a week had smashed into the Korean GM Ladder beating ForGG, Sage, Bomber repeatedly. Haters said ladder does not matter and that Koreans are not playing those games to win because they are saving their strategies for LANS. They said he would get owned at Blizzard Cup. He went 2-2 at Blizzard Cup and went out despite having the same score as MC (due to the head-to-head). Haters said he only beat Hero because Hero was having an off-day - clearly untrue. Whenever Stephano beats a Korean his bashers make attempts to belittle this achievement by disrespecting these opponents. Oh Bomber is not very good, Puma is average, Polt is just OK, JYP is not so good, Ryung is no good etc. No-one else gets this level of disrespect. When Jjakji rose to win GSL did haters slag off the opponents he defeated? Did people disrespect DRG's opponents last year? Stephano has not gone away, he has improved during 2012. The haters have been embarrassed by their predictions of his failure being wide of the mark and yet some are still clinging to them despite the ever-growing evidence that Stephano is actually pretty good at SC2. Now they are reduced to saying he will fail in GSL due to the preparations aspect or that DRG is still better at ZvP in an attempt to put down Stephano. They should try and be objective and acknowledge that their intial doubts have been proven unfounded. Haters should just hold up their hands and admit they were wrong in their predictions about Stephano being a flash in the pan. SC2 has only been around for a few years, but already we can see new players have emerged during that time. During Beta no-one had heard of DRG, Stephano, Jjakji, Squirtle or Bomber. It was all about Tester, Fruitdealer, Idra and MakaPrime. The players at the top have changed somewhat although some players like MC and MKP have endured. Some players have risen and some players have fallen. Even the game has changed, with new maps and new patches and a new meta-game. Stephano gets a lot of attention and hype because he is a Foreigner tearing up the scene. If there were other Foreigners doing this to the same extent, then this attention would be shared. So it is up to other players to raise their game. Maybe Thorzain, Ret, Mana, Sheth or Illusion could go up a gear. Who knows? I don't know the future, but I do know that if someone I had not anticipated started doing really well, I would not ignore the evidence and bash them due to outdated predictions. Stephano is good for the foreign SC2 scene. He gives hope to other Foreign pros and his popularity helps sustain Foreign Tournaments. Even if you don't like him personally, that should be acknowledged. Of course some want the Foreign scene to die. Not me. I think it is great having IPL, MLG, DreamHack, IronSquid, IEM, Assembly etc plus all the numerous mini-tournaments. It is my understanding that Boxer's popularity helped establish the BW scene in Korea. If Stephano's popularity can help establish a sustaining SC2 Foreign Scene then that is certainly a good thing. I am not crediting Stephano with being the Foreign Boxer of SC2, but if the Foreign Scene becomes sustaining and growing in popularity then all SC2 pros and fans will benefit. Stephano is helping with that. Amasing post | ||
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