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On May 10 2012 21:39 Opera wrote:Same ! You're awesome 
Glad to be of service ^^. Unless Drazerk returns to us, I'll do the finals as well.
Do LRs count as writing samples.......
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On May 10 2012 23:47 ColtraneL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 23:15 pms wrote:
Well, what I've said is true. It's just a matter of how many observations (how many years of GSL finals you have).
1) I don't know if BW is balance or not, even if the community says it is - it may be not, I just don't know. Some tests should be taken. It may be balanced, but we didn't have period of observation long enough yet (10 years).
2) I totally agree with the first part of your statement. This is EXACTLY why it's so hard to asses if the game is balanced or not. Because of the correlations and streaks you need a long period of observation. But if the period of observation is long enough (maybe not 5-10 years, but more) then the distributions should be COMPLETELY EVEN. Just like in the CENTRAL LIMIT THEOREM. You can randomly throw mathematical concepts like that but that doesn't make you right actually. The Central Limit Theorem as mentionned in its name is the limit of a probability law, so you have to look at a sample way higher than 10 years of playing and something like 20 OSL (I don't know exactly how many) but rather something in a complete different scale. But more than that, it only means an even repartition if you're considering an exact 50% (well I guess 1/3 for every race if we take SC2 as an exemple) success experiment, and we all know that it is completely utopic to expect this success from a game as complex as SC2. It is just not achievable. Moreover, as the game evolves, the balance changes and not in an even way, so you would have to start taking your results at a moment where the game is perfectly balanced and during a really long period of time during which it is not patched at all. Everytime you patch the game, it resets your datas. Or it could simply be that he is a fan of MC and doesn't want any other protoss to take his place, don't you think?
So first you say that "I'm randomly throwing mathematical concepts like that" but then in the next paragraph you actually explain it and say that 20 OSL could be enough (but you agree that it's hard to decide, that's fine). So this is my point. The CLT guarantess that there should 1/3 for each race after enough tournaments. At least the actual numbers should be close to it if the game is really balanced. The number of tournaments required to arrive to even distributions depends on how long are the correlations/winning streaks of players. Actually Blizzard SHOULD be doing this kind of calcuations for different levels of gamers to asses how well balanced is the game.
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i actually just yelled "fuck yea" when i saw the results. Great to see mvp in the finals
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holy shit didn't expect squirtle to 3-0 HerO at all. well played good sir.
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On May 11 2012 05:33 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Man, if I had to endure an entire season of Terran whining over not being the most represented race in GSL for the first time in their coddled existence only to be denied a Protoss champion again, I will not be happy.
Fully agree. Squirtle has this though, he is the chosen one..
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On May 11 2012 08:46 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 05:33 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Man, if I had to endure an entire season of Terran whining over not being the most represented race in GSL for the first time in their coddled existence only to be denied a Protoss champion again, I will not be happy. Fully agree. Squirtle has this though, he is the chosen one..
Squirtle has beaten MVP in the teamleague before.
Still think MVP has it.
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If MVP wasn't disabled he would crush Squirtle like a can. But he is crippled so he might just recycle the can
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On May 11 2012 09:02 Jisall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 08:46 FataLe wrote:On May 11 2012 05:33 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Man, if I had to endure an entire season of Terran whining over not being the most represented race in GSL for the first time in their coddled existence only to be denied a Protoss champion again, I will not be happy. Fully agree. Squirtle has this though, he is the chosen one.. Squirtle has beaten MVP in the teamleague before. Still think MVP has it.
Squirtle is basically ghetto parting. Whereas parting plays safe to get to his spellcasters and then destroys, squirtle plays ruthless and scrimages around with colossus while going to up to less controlled but still scary spellcasters. I feel like mvp is still weak lategame tvp(weaker than the average terran), and i think squirtle should be able to get to dat lategame.
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lol MVP is gonna win a GSL with a screwed up wrist.
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Think its ok if I quote myself here...
On May 10 2012 18:12 Hall0wed wrote:
FYI I did a test to see if Squirtle was going to be strong today or not... heres the deal.
I took a spoon, stuck it in a pot of boiling water, and then splashed the water onto my chest.
It hurt.
Therefore, Squirtle will be Super Effective! tonight.
Looks like a am some sort of prophet.
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I don't mind cheeses and all-ins in this game except the following two:
- Terran pulling SCVs to bug the AI. Of course SCVs also add to the overall hitpoints of an army. I don't mind seeing SCVs accompanying mech army for repair, but this bit-by-bit style always leaves a bad taste. To an extent, I dislike drone pulls in ZvZs as well although nowhere near as much as I dislike the SCV pulls.
- Protoss blocking ramps with offensive Forcefields. I mean, people complain about how "abilities that stop microing" are bad for the game? Talk about tying your hands on your chair which is what ramp block does often times.
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Dude these guys are programmers, they do gaming for a living. So you can't blame MVP for choosing the safest way to win against a protoss, which is to win by early/mid game. What's the point of risking himself by going into late game while everybody even blizzard recognize that toss has an advantage by late game. Its PARTING's JOB to drag the game to late game and turn the table, not MVP's.
As far as i know, IM doesn't pay salaries. The prize money is all MVP has. If i were him i will do the same too. Nuff said!
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On May 11 2012 10:46 gengka wrote:
Dude these guys are programmers, they do gaming for a living. So you can't blame MVP for choosing the safest way to win against a protoss, which is to win by early/mid game. What's the point of risking himself by going into late game while everybody even blizzard recognize that toss has an advantage by late game. Its PARTING's JOB to drag the game to late game and turn the table, not MVP's.
As far as i know, IM doesn't pay salaries. The prize money is all MVP has. If i were him i will do the same too. Nuff said!
They pay salaries after they got their head sponsorship from LG but yeah before then I don't think they earned any.
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squirtle 3-0s hero like i expected. just leagues ahead, no competition.
so glad mvp won too.
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On May 11 2012 07:59 pms wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 23:47 ColtraneL wrote:On May 10 2012 23:15 pms wrote:
Well, what I've said is true. It's just a matter of how many observations (how many years of GSL finals you have).
1) I don't know if BW is balance or not, even if the community says it is - it may be not, I just don't know. Some tests should be taken. It may be balanced, but we didn't have period of observation long enough yet (10 years).
2) I totally agree with the first part of your statement. This is EXACTLY why it's so hard to asses if the game is balanced or not. Because of the correlations and streaks you need a long period of observation. But if the period of observation is long enough (maybe not 5-10 years, but more) then the distributions should be COMPLETELY EVEN. Just like in the CENTRAL LIMIT THEOREM. You can randomly throw mathematical concepts like that but that doesn't make you right actually. The Central Limit Theorem as mentionned in its name is the limit of a probability law, so you have to look at a sample way higher than 10 years of playing and something like 20 OSL (I don't know exactly how many) but rather something in a complete different scale. But more than that, it only means an even repartition if you're considering an exact 50% (well I guess 1/3 for every race if we take SC2 as an exemple) success experiment, and we all know that it is completely utopic to expect this success from a game as complex as SC2. It is just not achievable. Moreover, as the game evolves, the balance changes and not in an even way, so you would have to start taking your results at a moment where the game is perfectly balanced and during a really long period of time during which it is not patched at all. Everytime you patch the game, it resets your datas. Or it could simply be that he is a fan of MC and doesn't want any other protoss to take his place, don't you think? So first you say that "I'm randomly throwing mathematical concepts like that" but then in the next paragraph you actually explain it and say that 20 OSL could be enough (but you agree that it's hard to decide, that's fine). So this is my point. The CLT guarantess that there should 1/3 for each race after enough tournaments. At least the actual numbers should be close to it if the game is really balanced. The number of tournaments required to arrive to even distributions depends on how long are the correlations/winning streaks of players. Actually Blizzard SHOULD be doing this kind of calcuations for different levels of gamers to asses how well balanced is the game.
Central limit theorem says that as we perform more and more draws, under certain technical conditions on the random variables itself, the mean converges to a normal distribution... So I fail to see the relevance here.
Now, had you invoked some form of a strong law of large numbers then it would be a different case. The strong law of large numbers would tell us that the probability of success observed in a sample converges to the true probability of success. Given the number of professional games played one could argue that the current percentages do reflect the true chances of winning and hence BW is balance.
The problem comes form the fact that there were major meta changes in the strategy and hence it is questionable if one can use data from 2002 and 2008 and treat them the same. The effect of maps I would say that it averages out in the end as so many maps have been played so no map has a significant impact on the results.
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Dude these guys are programmers, they do gaming for a living. So you can't blame MVP for choosing the safest way to win against a protoss, which is to win by early/mid game. What's the point of risking himself by going into late game while everybody even blizzard recognize that toss has an advantage by late game. Its PARTING's JOB to drag the game to late game and turn the table, not MVP's.
Actually, for g1, I don't think MVP had planned to end it early. It was just that PartinG went for a SUPER greedy build (2 colo + templar transistion with only 3 sentries on a map with 4 forcefield ramps on 2 base). He HAD to punish him or he would be way behind. It is almost like a 1 rax double expand from terrans. Notice that the scvs didn't do much since MVP didn't plan for Parting to move out. I think the scvs pulls were mainly to use as a meat shield for charging up the ramp while dropping in main. Parting did not have enough army to deal with a 2 pronge attack with his build before storm is done. That was the weakness of the build and MVP exploited it. If he missed that timing, Parting could have taken an easy third and been so far ahead.
SCVs pulls are much more common for terran because SCVs act as nice buffers and they have mules. Do you know why we see less probe/drone pulls? It is because they usually just get in the way of lings and zealots.
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Someone know the translation of the message from Parting to MVP when he typed GG?
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Probably the most entertaining finals between the four advanced. Finals between players from the same team feel like less is on the line and a PvP finals would be hard pressed to be entertaining as entertaining as PvT. Plus who the hell isn't excited to see MVP make it to the finals alongside the recently evolved Squirtle? Not even sure who to root for.
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To be a Pokemon master...
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EPT
