Casters: Marcus "djWHEAT" Graham & Taylor "PainUser" Parsons
Format
The Evil Geniuses Master's Cup Series League will feature 12 teams in a round robin format with each team matchup containing at least four best of three games between two teams. The top four teams at the end of the season will advance to the playoffs on a two day live broadcast weekend. Results Evil Geniuses vs. Team Liquid
Wow, this looks like a really good match. Lucky news is there's no Sheth, so I don't think Liquid is too favored. (I kid, I kid)
Huk vs TaeJa...I'm not really familiar enough with either of them. IdrA vs Hero, just based on their record I'd say Hero. Ret and JYP could go either way. Puma beats Zenio.
Hoping for IdrA vs Zenio ace match :DDDD would be great for another rematch between them, their rivalry has kinda fallen off.
This is unfortunately going to be a beat-down this time (partly due to "lucky" draw). TaeJa and Hero will definitely win their matches. Ret is definitely favored vs JyP, and Zenio should be slightly favored vs Puma. 4-0 or 3-1 in TL's favor, though I wouldn't mind seeing an ace match with DeMuslim pulling an upset of Hero/Taeja/Ret/Zenio.
I can see this going to an ace match. Both sides got on the wrong side of the draw with Zenio against Puma and Idra against Hero so that should be at least 1 win a piece. The other 2 matches should be pretty close with either team picking up the points. Puma will be sent as the Ace for EG and it will be up to Liquid to pick the right player to take him out
JYP recently 2-0'd Seal in Code A where most people were expecting Seal to win. His PvZ is pretty good but stephano style seems to throw him off, as he lost to Stephano 2-1 in IPL. I'd say his PvZ is pretty good. Ret definitely has a chance of winning though.
HuK < TaeJa TaeJa's TvP in his IPL4 run wasn't against any top-level players, but it still looked very solid. Add in the fact that HuK looked really off on his PvT in his Code A matches...Code S > Code B.
IdrA < HerO IdrA v Korean Code S Protoss. GG.
JYP > Ret This could go either way, but JYP 's PvZ in his Code A matches (against Seal, no less) looked a lot better than Genius's PvZ during his DH games against Ret. Closest of the 4 regular matches by far.
PuMa > Zenio PuMa TvZ by far his weakest matchup right now, but it's still much better than Zenio's most recent ZvT games. PuMa is also 4-0 against Zenio, with the most recent matches being kinda lopsided.
PuMa < TaeJa From everything I've seen during ESVs, Code A/S, on stream, TaeJa's bio and marine-tank TvT is much better than PuMa's as long as he doesn't get far behind due to early pressure. Most of PuMa's TvT succeeds and fails depending on how much damage he can do early game, so I'll take my chances with TaeJa being the better overall player.
Losing to stephano doesn't say much about his PVZ. Haven't seen a protoss beat Stephano yet. (Inori doesn't count, Stephano said he was thrown off by the huge bracket with shitty players)
Is it just me or is this the first time HuK's been in a team fight?
On April 25 2012 12:14 snowfox330 wrote: Losing to stephano doesn't say much about his PVZ. Haven't seen a protoss beat Stephano yet. (Inori doesn't count, Stephano said he was thrown off by the huge bracket with shitty players)
Is it just me or is this the first time HuK's been in a team fight?
Definitely one of the very few. He almost never participates in any team league games due to cross server latency issues.
No one thinks Zenio will win? The last two games could go either way imo. Unfortunately for EG Huk and Idra got bad matchups for them so I think barring a big upset those wont go well for them. I think liquid wins with a few close matches
I don't think anyone on EG can defeat Taeja, and I don't think IdrA can touch HerO so there is no way Liquid can lose this (assuming Taeja is used as the ace).
On April 25 2012 11:17 rasnj wrote: Ret is definitely favored vs JyP, and Zenio should be slightly favored vs Puma.
emphasis mine because I don't understand this statement
I guess definitely is an exaggeration, but I feel Ret will take it. Ret has great zvp and has really been on form lately; he looks much better than his results would suggests (especially than his vp at the winter mlgs suggest). JyP does have great zvp, but IMO it has been way too overhyped and is not really that special (sort of like Inca's pvp), and an online match with minimal preparation is completely different to a GSL match. In addition I'm assuming JyP is in Korea, while Ret is in EU which usually gives at least a slight advantage to the EU player in terms of latency.
I wonder which ace Liquid will send out, if it comes to it.
HuK < TaeJa. Top foreigner vs Code S Korean and slayer of GSL champs. IdrA < HerO. Slumping foreigner vs world-class PvZ. JYP > Ret. This is pretty hard to call. Going to give it to JYP though because Ret vP seems off at times. PuMa > Zenio. Zenio has shown prowess in ZvT to take down even IMMvp at one point.
Liquid 3-1.
If it comes down to an ace match, I'd like to see Taeja fielded over HerO. Liquid's prince was a former Slayers Terran, so his vZ and vT should be top-notch. I don't see EG fielding HuK or JYP for the ace match, so Taeja would be a safer choice than HerO.
On April 25 2012 11:20 Gator wrote: 3-1 liquid huk<TaeJa idra<HerO JYP<Ret Puma>Zenio
While I do love Ret's ZvP, I think JYP's PvZ is greatly underestimated. Should be great games though! Also, if it goes to the ace match I have no idea who liquid would choose.
On April 25 2012 13:58 ssg wrote: Lmfao at the liquid fanboys. Not surprised at the homerism though. Eg gas this EASY
fanboys.... TL has owned eg in team league its fair call to pick tl....
Yeah I also wonder how he thinks EG has it easy.... I don't know how you could favor HuK vs Taeja or Idra vs HerO. I think if EG takes it, the series is going to be really close and good.
On April 25 2012 11:17 rasnj wrote: Ret is definitely favored vs JyP, and Zenio should be slightly favored vs Puma.
emphasis mine because I don't understand this statement
Ret has sick ZvP and doesn't JYP have weak PvZ?
JYP has good PvZ, his PvT on the other hand...
His PvT is better now, I mean at IEM he lost to Puma 2-3 who would then lose to MC 2-3. I don't think it is really fair to judge JYP on his PvT of a few months ago because as far as I have seen it has improved a lot.
On April 25 2012 13:58 ssg wrote: Lmfao at the liquid fanboys. Not surprised at the homerism though. Eg gas this EASY
It wont be easy, and it will probably go to the ace match. Theres almost no way idra can beat hero (zvp is his worst match up) and i dont think huk can beat taeja either. The other 2 games are probably EG favoured, making it an interesting series
WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Would u put IdrA vs Hero wtf!! How do they work out the matches in this? Just have like an order and opponent has order both send it in then its just 1vs1 2vs2 etc? If it isnt this way and its people vs people WTFFFFFFFFF why would you put idra vs hero >.< However...EG and TL probably best line ups going head to head FUCKKK!
On April 25 2012 17:35 Pandemona wrote: WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Would u put IdrA vs Hero wtf!! How do they work out the matches in this? Just have like an order and opponent has order both send it in then its just 1vs1 2vs2 etc? If it isnt this way and its people vs people WTFFFFFFFFF why would you put idra vs hero >.< However...EG and TL probably best line ups going head to head FUCKKK!
Yeah they're told the map and they went "well on daybreak we think idra will be best" and TL thought "hero will be best on daybreak" OR they thought "i bet they'll put idra on daybreak so we'll counter him with hero".
So they chose their players for each map, then they find out how screwed they are
Man there soo much good stuff to watch every night lol
Taeja 2-0 Huk (code S terran are imba) Hero 2-1 Idra (I am not convinced idra can win a ZvP vs a really good toss, and hero is a really good player) JyP 2-1 (Ret plays a similiar style to idra, so id imagine JYP should be fine as long as he doesn't let Ret go into beast mode) Puma 2-1 (this is one of the hardest matches for me to pick, but I feel Puma is a bit better right now.) so thats 2-2 Ace Match Puma Vs Taeja 2-1 puma
On April 25 2012 17:35 Pandemona wrote: WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Would u put IdrA vs Hero wtf!! How do they work out the matches in this? Just have like an order and opponent has order both send it in then its just 1vs1 2vs2 etc? If it isnt this way and its people vs people WTFFFFFFFFF why would you put idra vs hero >.< However...EG and TL probably best line ups going head to head FUCKKK!
Each team chooses their player based on the map so they had no one of knowing really that IdrA would have to face HerO.
On April 26 2012 01:09 NrGmonk wrote: Really smart for liquid, sending hero to snipe idra. Daybreak is the only map Idra would want to play on out of those maps.
Ehhhhh why is that smart?
I would say Idra wouldn't be favoured to win against any of the four players Liquid sent out (except Ret who seems to be weak at ZvZ), so it's not a huge big deal anyway. Though I suppose Hero's PvZ is a lot better than his other matchups so I can see why they'd rather have a guaranteed win there.
I wonder if the teams actually put as much thought into their lineups as the general public does...
HuK > TaeJa I don't know about TaeJa's TvP but HuK has a hard time PvT 2-0 IdrA > HerO meh, with IdrA playing his worst match-up it will either go 2-0 or 2-1 JYP > Ret This will be easy for JYP, he is a monster in PvZ 2-0 PuMa > Zenio Didn't they play in IPL4 or something? I only know PuMa did win, and Zenio didn't really impress me lately 2-0
ACE: PuMa > TaeJa/HerO really close to call but TaeJa will have more chance to win. we will see I guess
On April 26 2012 02:17 zManiacal wrote: Can anyone tell me what time this begins for people leaving in Europe? I'm not good with time conversions, thank you.
Liquid mercenaries have been on a tear and EG has proportionately been slumping, I think Liquid is going to take this EZPZ.
I really love Zenio's Zerg play; it feels so lively and robust But he still loses sets to every other Terran and I don't understand... :< If it gets that far, it'll go to ace match with Puma v. Hero, which is a bit of a tossup IMO
On April 26 2012 01:09 NrGmonk wrote: Really smart for liquid, sending hero to snipe idra. Daybreak is the only map Idra would want to play on out of those maps.
Ehhhhh why is that smart?
I would say Idra wouldn't be favoured to win against any of the four players Liquid sent out (except Ret who seems to be weak at ZvZ), so it's not a huge big deal anyway. Though I suppose Hero's PvZ is a lot better than his other matchups so I can see why they'd rather have a guaranteed win there.
I wonder if the teams actually put as much thought into their lineups as the general public does...
Ret is not really weak at ZvZ. Probably his weakest matchup yeah, but I would still favor him a lot above Idra at the moment.
TL should take this. Taeja and Hero will win their games, and Ret and Zenio both have a chance. Even if they both lose, Hero or Taeja could clean up the ace.
so i'm thinking HuK over teaja, hero over IdrA, JYP over ret and puma over zenio, 3 - 1 eg? but huk teaja could go either way, i'm still cheering for IdrA to beat HerO, but i doubt it :/
Honestly, I'd say Liquid is largely favored, but to really make it a rivalry, EG has to win a match once in a while, would be a nice diversion from Liquid winning everything else.
On April 26 2012 01:09 NrGmonk wrote: Really smart for liquid, sending hero to snipe idra. Daybreak is the only map Idra would want to play on out of those maps.
Ehhhhh why is that smart?
I would say Idra wouldn't be favoured to win against any of the four players Liquid sent out (except Ret who seems to be weak at ZvZ), so it's not a huge big deal anyway. Though I suppose Hero's PvZ is a lot better than his other matchups so I can see why they'd rather have a guaranteed win there.
I wonder if the teams actually put as much thought into their lineups as the general public does...
Ret is not really weak at ZvZ. Probably his weakest matchup yeah, but I would still favor him a lot above Idra at the moment.
Bumblebee (TL player manager) said in an interview that that is part of his job, he sits together with Nazgul and thinks about all the possible matchups in team leagues and how to use the players correctly.
This kinda looks like a 2-2 to me. Taeja should take out Huk - Huk's PvT is nothing to rave about As much as I like IdrA, I expect he'll get destroyed by HerO. IdrA's ZvP is so weak, though it's slowly getting better. JYP's PvZ is solid. He should manage to take out Ret, unless Ret has studied the games JYP played against Stephano. PuMa vs Zenio is kind of a toss-up. Zenio's ZvT has looked so weak recently, but PuMa is not always super solid vs Z either. I'll still give him the edge.
Not sure EG can do much against two RO8 code S players in the ace match.
On April 26 2012 10:40 GreyKnight wrote: uh is taeja even playing.....really bad macro and general multi-task. something is like occupying him half the time.
so...HuK must have been in the restroom with ur logic right???
HuK was playing really well until he made the decision to attack out in the open into a well spread Terran army without thermal lance or storm. He realizes he's Protoss right? You can't do that against Terran x.x
On April 26 2012 10:40 GreyKnight wrote: uh is taeja even playing.....really bad macro and general multi-task. something is like occupying him half the time.
so...HuK must have been in the restroom with ur logic right???
well huk's loss was mainly based on one really bad decision.
Now that I think about it, I think Huk was trying to line up a timing attack with 4 or 5 archons, 2-2, and Extended lance. Taeja just caught him out of position.
Nice first game from taeja. I fell bad for huk, looks like he looked away from his army in the middle at just the wrong time, and lost the game because of it. Edit: wait huk picked anitga? this should be interesting
On April 26 2012 10:43 confusedcrib wrote: Now that I think about it, I think Huk was trying to line up a timing attack with 4 or 5 archons, 2-2, and Extended lance. Taeja just caught him out of position.
HuK didn't get caught out of position, he was trying to be aggressive too early. Still think he can win this set the contain at the start was really nice.
On April 26 2012 10:59 DarthKhan wrote: Anyone else catch Taeja microing that marauder into the medivac then out in the engagement at his 3rd? Dear god that was great.
The couple of units he saved with that excellent micro was nothing compared to the amount of damage he got from HuK's four stalkers from stimming his whole army...
On April 26 2012 11:00 KhAmun wrote: wow such a poor engagement by huk
ya it really went badly..
Well it was a poor engagement, I wrote that when he charged in, and my post remains to be true..
Don't understand how it was a super poor engagement, I agree it could've been done better, but Taeja (not knowing that Storms wasn't done) had his army split into small groups which gave HuK's large number of zealots so much surface area.
I kid, I get what you were trying to say, but a great series requires 2 great players, and Huk's skillful micro of blink stalkers and Taeja's great defense really made that game great
On April 26 2012 11:00 KhAmun wrote: wow such a poor engagement by huk
ya it really went badly..
Well it was a poor engagement, I wrote that when he charged in, and my post remains to be true..
Don't understand how it was a super poor engagement, I agree it could've been done better, but Taeja (not knowing that Storms wasn't done) had his army split into small groups which gave HuK's large number of zealots so much surface area.
I'm just referring to the way in which he charged in. The timing on HuK's two groups of units were off, one side charged in long before the second, giving taeja a change in that fight. You mentioned he had his army split, it shouldn't have been that close. HuK sent in one group significantly before the other is all I'm saying.
On April 26 2012 11:10 entropius wrote: Top 3 control <3
lol realistically man that wasn't good control at all. It was good decision making.
Control on both sides was bad - I'm wondering if they played on NA or KR - to me it seems like they were playing on NA cause both of them had some interesting control...
On April 26 2012 11:10 entropius wrote: Top 3 control <3
Huk's control didn't win him the game....
No, it didn't. But he definitely played micro-intensive games 2 and 3, and his control and multitasking showed -- microing the weakened zealots to attack the scv line while the fullhealth ones chased marines in the main while managing the stalkers at the front door? Not everyone can do that.
On April 26 2012 11:10 entropius wrote: Top 3 control <3
lol realistically man that wasn't good control at all. It was good decision making.
Control on both sides was bad - I'm wondering if they played on NA or KR - to me it seems like they were playing on NA cause both of them had some interesting control...
why would two players in korea play on the US server
On April 26 2012 11:14 confusedcrib wrote: I think if these two matchups are played a hundred times, Taeja and Hero would win more, but Idra and Huk are hardly pushovers.
On April 26 2012 11:14 confusedcrib wrote: I think if these two matchups are played a hundred times, Taeja and Hero would win more, but Idra and Huk are hardly pushovers.
That would be the same for most foreigners against Code S Koreans lol
Dream Scenario - 2-2 goes to Ace Match, and then Demuslim plays and beats HerO, regains his powers against Protoss, and then wins every MLG and Dreamhack left in this year.
On April 26 2012 11:10 entropius wrote: Top 3 control <3
lol realistically man that wasn't good control at all. It was good decision making.
Control on both sides was bad - I'm wondering if they played on NA or KR - to me it seems like they were playing on NA cause both of them had some interesting control...
why would two players in korea play on the US server
I don't know the MCSL rules anymore, but in season 1 all matches were played on NA I believe, which is why Liquid chose not to participate.
On April 26 2012 11:14 confusedcrib wrote: I think if these two matchups are played a hundred times, Taeja and Hero would win more, but Idra and Huk are hardly pushovers.
Wait, does that mean you know Idra's gonna win?
Haha I wish, they don't tell us peon writers anything!
To be honest, I can't wait for the Brood War players to come over and show the current players how things are done. I can't believe how crappy TaeJa's micro was considering he's top elo of the Korean SC2.
It's looking really likely that EG wins, all of their team members are tweeting about the match and normally they are completely silent when they lose.
On April 26 2012 11:18 Ender2701 wrote: It's looking really likely that EG wins, all of their team members are tweeting about the match and normally they are completely silent when they lose.
Really they shouldn't be silent ever, it's their tournament so they should be pumping it regardless of win or loss, esp. because it builds interest and satisfies sponsors
On April 26 2012 11:18 BlazeFury01 wrote: To be honest, I can't wait for the Brood War players to come over and show the current players how things are done. I can't believe how crappy TaeJa's micro was considering he's top elo of the Korean SC2.
Now that's not quite fair. Taeja has very good gameplay, including micro, and you can't just take his micro from one game that he lost and compare it to one of the best showcases of micro from BW. That's cherrypicking comparisons.
On April 26 2012 11:18 BlazeFury01 wrote: To be honest, I can't wait for the Brood War players to come over and show the current players how things are done. I can't believe how crappy TaeJa's micro was considering he's top elo of the Korean SC2.
On April 26 2012 11:14 confusedcrib wrote: I think if these two matchups are played a hundred times, Taeja and Hero would win more, but Idra and Huk are hardly pushovers.
That would be the same for most foreigners against Code S Koreans lol
...naw most foreigners it would wind up being like 97:2:1 (i guess floating buildings might happen once in a hundred games) -_-
On April 26 2012 11:10 entropius wrote: Top 3 control <3
lol realistically man that wasn't good control at all. It was good decision making.
Control on both sides was bad - I'm wondering if they played on NA or KR - to me it seems like they were playing on NA cause both of them had some interesting control...
why would two players in korea play on the US server
I don't know the MCSL rules anymore, but in season 1 all matches were played on NA I believe, which is why Liquid chose not to participate.
On April 26 2012 11:18 Ender2701 wrote: It's looking really likely that EG wins, all of their team members are tweeting about the match and normally they are completely silent when they lose.
I don't know, I think every time that Idra is streaming around this time he always shuts down his stream and encourages people to go watch. It could just be them trying to support the tournament, and they are just being more vocal because in this instance it is supporting the tournament and their team.
I'm sick of these BW comparisons. They're crap at SC2 till they switch over and show that they are not. People need to cool it with the BW - fanboyism till actual results are there to validate their claims. For all we know, they could be crap because they can't get used to it.
On April 26 2012 11:18 BlazeFury01 wrote: To be honest, I can't wait for the Brood War players to come over and show the current players how things are done. I can't believe how crappy TaeJa's micro was considering he's top elo of the Korean SC2.
Now that's not quite fair. Taeja has very good gameplay, including micro, and you can't just take his micro from one game that he lost and compare it to one of the best showcases of micro from BW. That's cherrypicking comparisons.
lol I am not cherry picking my son. If you are top elo and considered one of the best players of a game, your micro should be prime regardless of whether you have stim or not. It's so easy to micro if you have stim but a true showcase of micro comes from when you don't have stim. Stutter stepping is so easy with stim, try it without it.
On April 26 2012 11:10 entropius wrote: Top 3 control <3
lol realistically man that wasn't good control at all. It was good decision making.
Control on both sides was bad - I'm wondering if they played on NA or KR - to me it seems like they were playing on NA cause both of them had some interesting control...
why would two players in korea play on the US server
I don't know the MCSL rules anymore, but in season 1 all matches were played on NA I believe, which is why Liquid chose not to participate.
no, if there had to be cross server play, the matches were played on NA. If two players were in KR, they could play on KR.
But the rules changed anyways. I know the alternate servers. I've seen Idra play on his Korean account this season.
edit: as we can see, idra is on his KR account this match.
On April 26 2012 11:25 Falconblade wrote: I'm sick of these BW comparisons. They're crap at SC2 till they switch over and show that they are not. People need to cool it with the BW - fanboyism till actual results are there to validate their claims. For all we know, they could be crap because they can't get used to it.
I made the comparision because Brood War is the much harder game with far better players. MVP, Hyun, and ForGG are all lonewolfs on SC2 with crappy practice partners (if you compare them to their teammates on bw). MVP practices with Nestea lol. Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Fantasy, Jaedong, and the rest of the other pros while at the same time they will have their original coaches, strategists and analysts that have been in the pro scene for years backing them.
I really wish he could just type the GG for his team. I know its a small deal but its a part of the SC culture and a sign of respect as much as anything else. Also it reflects well on his team. Ah well. I guess the team must not care.
On April 26 2012 11:25 Falconblade wrote: I'm sick of these BW comparisons. They're crap at SC2 till they switch over and show that they are not. People need to cool it with the BW - fanboyism till actual results are there to validate their claims. For all we know, they could be crap because they can't get used to it.
I made the comparision because Brood War is the much harder game with far better players. MVP, Hyun, and ForGG are all lonewolfs on SC2 with crappy practice partners (if you compare them to their teammates on bw). MVP practices with Nestea lol. Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Fantasy, Jaedong, and the rest of the other pros while at the same time they will have their original coaches, strategists and analysts that have been in the pro scene for years backing them.
Please stop both of you. I've seen this discussion before. I don't want to again.
On April 26 2012 11:25 Falconblade wrote: I'm sick of these BW comparisons. They're crap at SC2 till they switch over and show that they are not. People need to cool it with the BW - fanboyism till actual results are there to validate their claims. For all we know, they could be crap because they can't get used to it.
I made the comparision because Brood War is the much harder game with far better players. MVP, Hyun, and ForGG are all lonewolfs on SC2 with crappy practice partners (if you compare them to their teammates on bw). MVP practices with Nestea lol. Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Fantasy, Jaedong, and the rest of the other pros while at the same time they will have their original coaches, strategists and analysts that have been in the pro scene for years backing them.
Still no evidence.. This is a horse that's been beaten beyond undeath. The players you list are fucking great at BW, but no one knows how good they'll be at SC2, there's no point in starting this discussion yet again.
On April 26 2012 11:25 Falconblade wrote: I'm sick of these BW comparisons. They're crap at SC2 till they switch over and show that they are not. People need to cool it with the BW - fanboyism till actual results are there to validate their claims. For all we know, they could be crap because they can't get used to it.
lol i really don't want to turn this into a BW vs SCII discussion, but you do know that most top-tier pros played BW before SC2 right? Just saying.
On April 26 2012 11:25 Falconblade wrote: I'm sick of these BW comparisons. They're crap at SC2 till they switch over and show that they are not. People need to cool it with the BW - fanboyism till actual results are there to validate their claims. For all we know, they could be crap because they can't get used to it.
I made the comparision because Brood War is the much harder game with far better players. MVP, Hyun, and ForGG are all lonewolfs on SC2 with crappy practice partners (if you compare them to their teammates on bw). MVP practices with Nestea lol. Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Fantasy, Jaedong, and the rest of the other pros while at the same time they will have their original coaches, strategists and analysts that have been in the pro scene for years backing them.
Still doesn't mean that they will be the next top dogs when they transfer. Some of the better players of the game right now are former WC3 players that outstrip people with BW experience, it's the game itself that matters. It might be harder to play BW, but doesn't mean being amazing at BW = being amazing at SC2.
On April 26 2012 11:18 BlazeFury01 wrote: To be honest, I can't wait for the Brood War players to come over and show the current players how things are done. I can't believe how crappy TaeJa's micro was considering he's top elo of the Korean SC2.
Now that's not quite fair. Taeja has very good gameplay, including micro, and you can't just take his micro from one game that he lost and compare it to one of the best showcases of micro from BW. That's cherrypicking comparisons.
lol I am not cherry picking my son. If you are top elo and considered one of the best players of a game, your micro should be prime regardless of whether you have stim or not. It's so easy to micro if you have stim but a true showcase of micro comes from when you don't have stim. Stutter stepping is so easy with stim, try it without it.
Then stop watching SC2 perhaps??? You don't have to if you don't like it.
On April 26 2012 11:25 Falconblade wrote: I'm sick of these BW comparisons. They're crap at SC2 till they switch over and show that they are not. People need to cool it with the BW - fanboyism till actual results are there to validate their claims. For all we know, they could be crap because they can't get used to it.
I made the comparision because Brood War is the much harder game with far better players. MVP, Hyun, and ForGG are all lonewolfs on SC2 with crappy practice partners (if you compare them to their teammates on bw). MVP practices with Nestea lol. Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Fantasy, Jaedong, and the rest of the other pros while at the same time they will have their original coaches, strategists and analysts that have been in the pro scene for years backing them.
Of course BW is a harder game, and 90% of the top players today are former BW pros (MVP, MC, Nestea, MKP, MMA, etc). But, that doesn't necessarily mean that the SC2 competition is not legitimate.
Meanwhile, Idra flounders again. He might as well 6 pool or roach-bling bust and simply try to get lucky
On April 26 2012 11:18 BlazeFury01 wrote: To be honest, I can't wait for the Brood War players to come over and show the current players how things are done. I can't believe how crappy TaeJa's micro was considering he's top elo of the Korean SC2.
Now that's not quite fair. Taeja has very good gameplay, including micro, and you can't just take his micro from one game that he lost and compare it to one of the best showcases of micro from BW. That's cherrypicking comparisons.
lol I am not cherry picking my son. If you are top elo and considered one of the best players of a game, your micro should be prime regardless of whether you have stim or not. It's so easy to micro if you have stim but a true showcase of micro comes from when you don't have stim. Stutter stepping is so easy with stim, try it without it.
Then stop watching SC2 perhaps??? You don't have to if you don't like it.
On April 26 2012 11:25 Falconblade wrote: I'm sick of these BW comparisons. They're crap at SC2 till they switch over and show that they are not. People need to cool it with the BW - fanboyism till actual results are there to validate their claims. For all we know, they could be crap because they can't get used to it.
I made the comparision because Brood War is the much harder game with far better players. MVP, Hyun, and ForGG are all lonewolfs on SC2 with crappy practice partners (if you compare them to their teammates on bw). MVP practices with Nestea lol. Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Fantasy, Jaedong, and the rest of the other pros while at the same time they will have their original coaches, strategists and analysts that have been in the pro scene for years backing them.
Still doesn't mean that they will be the next top dogs when they transfer. Some of the better players of the game right now are former WC3 players that outstrip people with BW experience, it's the game itself that matters. It might be harder to play BW, but doesn't mean being amazing at BW = being amazing at SC2.
Well, Flash did get into masters without knowing what most of the terran units/mechanics did during his rehab so...
On April 26 2012 11:25 Falconblade wrote: I'm sick of these BW comparisons. They're crap at SC2 till they switch over and show that they are not. People need to cool it with the BW - fanboyism till actual results are there to validate their claims. For all we know, they could be crap because they can't get used to it.
lol i really don't want to turn this into a BW vs SCII discussion, but you do know that most top-tier pros played BW before SC2 right? Just saying.
I do, but lets look at Stephano, no BW experience, mostly casual WC3. And we can look at NaDa, ForGG, etc. And they've not been rolling in MLGs and GSLs. Some of the best players were mediocre in BW before transitioning and beating people that were arguably better in BW.
IdrA was a top foreigner in BW, and right now he struggles to win against people without BW experience. Doesn't directly translate to the same level of skill between the two games.
On April 26 2012 11:25 Falconblade wrote: I'm sick of these BW comparisons. They're crap at SC2 till they switch over and show that they are not. People need to cool it with the BW - fanboyism till actual results are there to validate their claims. For all we know, they could be crap because they can't get used to it.
I made the comparision because Brood War is the much harder game with far better players. MVP, Hyun, and ForGG are all lonewolfs on SC2 with crappy practice partners (if you compare them to their teammates on bw). MVP practices with Nestea lol. Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Fantasy, Jaedong, and the rest of the other pros while at the same time they will have their original coaches, strategists and analysts that have been in the pro scene for years backing them.
Still doesn't mean that they will be the next top dogs when they transfer. Some of the better players of the game right now are former WC3 players that outstrip people with BW experience, it's the game itself that matters. It might be harder to play BW, but doesn't mean being amazing at BW = being amazing at SC2.
Well, Flash did get into masters without knowing what most of the terran units/mechanics did during his rehab so...
I'd be surprised if he didn't :p
But our expectations for Flash are not Code S, no, we expect him to win Code S at least 4 times a year.
On April 26 2012 11:35 xXFireandIceXx wrote: Man Idra's gotta get used to heavy heavy aggression.
he is used to it, he just misjudged the situation. you could see that he didnt produced roaches after the warren finished. if his scouting would have been better he could have insantly started producing roaches after warren finished. this would have raped the zealots
On April 26 2012 11:33 ulan-bat wrote: Burrow + tunneling claws would have done it or was idra dead already?
After his minor aggression I think he was dead. Though I think he went for that attack because of the damage sustained on the first attack on his third.
On April 26 2012 11:18 BlazeFury01 wrote: To be honest, I can't wait for the Brood War players to come over and show the current players how things are done. I can't believe how crappy TaeJa's micro was considering he's top elo of the Korean SC2.
God dammit the BW/SC2 "debate" has infested yet another innocent thread. Maybe there could be a designated thread to try and contain it, like the "designated balance discussion" thread.
On April 26 2012 11:39 Whynaut wrote: God dammit the BW/SC2 "debate" has infested yet another innocent thread. Maybe there could be a designated thread to try and contain it, like the "designated balance discussion" thread.
On April 26 2012 11:25 Falconblade wrote: I'm sick of these BW comparisons. They're crap at SC2 till they switch over and show that they are not. People need to cool it with the BW - fanboyism till actual results are there to validate their claims. For all we know, they could be crap because they can't get used to it.
lol i really don't want to turn this into a BW vs SCII discussion, but you do know that most top-tier pros played BW before SC2 right? Just saying.
but...naniwa...stephano...thorzain...sase... etc etc sure most of pros still from bw because u know.. it's logical that most of them in starcraft 2 after starcraft 1 and not after trackmania or counter-strike i dunno
On April 26 2012 11:25 Falconblade wrote: I'm sick of these BW comparisons. They're crap at SC2 till they switch over and show that they are not. People need to cool it with the BW - fanboyism till actual results are there to validate their claims. For all we know, they could be crap because they can't get used to it.
I made the comparision because Brood War is the much harder game with far better players. MVP, Hyun, and ForGG are all lonewolfs on SC2 with crappy practice partners (if you compare them to their teammates on bw). MVP practices with Nestea lol. Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Fantasy, Jaedong, and the rest of the other pros while at the same time they will have their original coaches, strategists and analysts that have been in the pro scene for years backing them.
Still doesn't mean that they will be the next top dogs when they transfer. Some of the better players of the game right now are former WC3 players that outstrip people with BW experience, it's the game itself that matters. It might be harder to play BW, but doesn't mean being amazing at BW = being amazing at SC2.
Well, Flash did get into masters without knowing what most of the terran units/mechanics did during his rehab so...
but... he get into masters...as protoss don't know why u meant terran
Note to wheat - When a Protoss goes +2 blink all in with zero tech, if you hold it without taking economic damage, you are way ahead. It doesn't matter how many roaches you lose, if you hold the attack you are a long way ahead of the Protoss.
Ridiculous how bad IdrA is compared to zergs like Stephano.. How IdrA is managing to lose this after holding(although badly, why doesn't he ever make spines?) the blink all in, I don't know. Terrible upgrade timings.
I think Idra could have won that battle if he used those corruptors (they were finished before the battle started, but just spawned and thus not hotkeyed with the army.
On April 26 2012 11:53 jeeneeus wrote: I think Idra could have won that battle if he used those corruptors (they were finished before the battle started, but just spawned and thus not hotkeyed with the army.
Idra could win this game at 10 different points not only this battle. Thats the funny part of it. How you are able to loose when you could win all the time...
I'm beginning to wonder if Idra is doing this on purpose. Hero went for a two base all-in that Idra managed to hold with no economic damage taken and he then allowed Hero to macro back up... How does that happen?
I really don't understand how Idra let Hero come back in that situation, you hold off the all in without losing ANY drones or a hatch and somehow still lose after the supply was 70 to 160 when Idra counter pushed.
On April 26 2012 11:55 Stress wrote: I'm beginning to wonder if Idra is doing this on purpose. Hero went for a two base all-in that Idra managed to hold with no economic damage taken and he then allowed Hero to macro back up... How does that happen?
IdrA didn't press when he had the advantage because he has no idea what to do in the matchup. He was flailing around with no idea what to do. Just look at his creep spread 18 minutes in. It's not even to his 4th base. He had no plan.
On April 26 2012 11:55 Stress wrote: I'm beginning to wonder if Idra is doing this on purpose. Hero went for a two base all-in that Idra managed to hold with no economic damage taken and he then allowed Hero to macro back up... How does that happen?
Idra missed his tech timings. A high level Zerg like DRG or Stephano would have gotten up that Pit or Spire while holding off the 2-base attack. Or at least get it after immediately holding it off. Idra went all the way to Hero's natural, turned around. and only then did he get his Pit. Then he decides to attack stalker/immortal/sentry with no lair tech. Bad play by Cale.
Man, I can see why Idra thinks the game is imbalanced so much, the way he plays, it makes the MU's look imbalanced, but it's really just his playstyle... Either he dominates, or it looks like there is no way to dominate the way he plays
On April 26 2012 11:52 garbodor wrote: I miss when I could count on IdrA to play decently :c
Me too. I remember the days when IdrA was really kicking ass, and was truly a force to be reckoned with. It's tough being an IdrA fan when he does such silly things like that. Occasional premature gging is one thing; truly throwing away entire games and really bad decision-making is another.
Hopefully he turns it around soon and gets back into his top form.
This game clearly shows flaws in IdrA playstyle. Say what you want but times when Idra was top zerg long gone. Strategies and players evolved, unfortunately IdrA stayed behind...
On April 26 2012 11:55 Stress wrote: I'm beginning to wonder if Idra is doing this on purpose. Hero went for a two base all-in that Idra managed to hold with no economic damage taken and he then allowed Hero to macro back up... How does that happen?
He's not doing it on purpose. He just doesn't know how to play this match up beyond the initial 10-15 minutes. He knows how to max on roaches and defend two base all-ins but beyond that his timings, compositions, decisions, etc. are all just not there.
Having said that, I think IdrA got tilted by being forced to play on the KR server. I don't know why he was forced to play there in both games.
On April 26 2012 11:52 garbodor wrote: I miss when I could count on IdrA to play decently :c
Me too. I remember the days when IdrA was really kicking ass, and was truly a force to be reckoned with. It's tough being an IdrA fan when he does such silly things like that. Occasional premature gging is one thing; truly throwing away entire games and really bad decision-making is another.
Hopefully he turns it around soon and gets back into his top form.
Other players started figuring out the game at a faster pace than him. Hero know exactly what he was doing, even after failing the 2-base timing, he had a transition that capitalized on Idra's mistakes.
On April 26 2012 11:57 tsuxiit wrote: IdrA didn't press when he had the advantage because he has no idea what to do in the matchup. He was flailing around with no idea what to do. Just look at his creep spread 18 minutes in. It's not even to his 4th base. He had no plan.
I usually try to not hate on players and assume things, but it is obvious that Idra has no sense of the ZvP match-up. I think his early hatred for protoss lead him to never really learning it, and now he's trying to get around a mental block or something. Hate to see any player plagued by problems he's having.
Super excited for JYP vs ret, an amazing ZvP vs an amazing PvZ player, and I'm fans of both.
Tune out when Idra is maxed on roaches against a 2base Hero with sub-100 supply.
Tune back in 5 minutes later to find Idra losing. Seriously, if he'd have tried to push further into the natural or do something, anything at all with his roaches he'd have actually won that game.
On April 26 2012 11:58 Embir wrote: This game clearly shows flaws in IdrA playstyle. Say what you want but times when Idra was top zerg long gone. Strategies and players evolved, unfortunately IdrA stayed behind...
Idra was a top Zerg back in the Open Seasons and over a year ago. While everyone has been getting better, Idra's play this year (nearly 4 months into 2012) has been absolutely atrocious.
I do feel bad for the casters for taking all the heat for calling the game wrong. Any other pro zerg would have won that game.
On April 26 2012 11:55 Stress wrote: I'm beginning to wonder if Idra is doing this on purpose. Hero went for a two base all-in that Idra managed to hold with no economic damage taken and he then allowed Hero to macro back up... How does that happen?
Idra missed his tech timings. A high level Zerg like DRG or Stephano would have gotten up that Pit or Spire while holding off the 2-base attack. Or at least get it after immediately holding it off. Idra went all the way to Hero's natural, turned around. and only then did he get his Pit. Then he decides to attack stalker/immortal/sentry with no lair tech. Bad play by Cale.
True but when he pushed Hero's nat after the all-in failed he only took out the assimilator and nothing else, he could have practically a-moved at that point and won because he had such a bigger army and supply lead. Idra's decision making was just bad imo.
On April 26 2012 11:55 Stress wrote: I'm beginning to wonder if Idra is doing this on purpose. Hero went for a two base all-in that Idra managed to hold with no economic damage taken and he then allowed Hero to macro back up... How does that happen?
Idra missed his tech timings. A high level Zerg like DRG or Stephano would have gotten up that Pit or Spire while holding off the 2-base attack. Or at least get it after immediately holding it off. Idra went all the way to Hero's natural, turned around. and only then did he get his Pit. Then he decides to attack stalker/immortal/sentry with no lair tech. Bad play by Cale.
True but when he pushed Hero's nat after the all-in failed he only took out the assimilator and nothing else, he could have practically a-moved at that point and won because he had such a bigger army and supply lead. Idra's decision making was just bad imo.
Again true. But even then, he MUST transition to Hive tech faster given that he was SO ahead ~50 supply. You can't beat a 200/200 +3 attack deathball with roach/ling/infestor
On April 26 2012 11:59 Azarkon wrote: He's not doing it on purpose. He just doesn't know how to play this match up beyond the initial 10-15 minutes
We aren't talking about a Millennium Prize Problem here. This isn't P=NP. Not knowing how to play a matchup when there's plenty of replays available of better zergs out there, when the best foreign zerg has stated that Protoss has so few options vs zerg and when he continues to make the same mistakes over and over is no longer a valid excuse.
I want him to do well, but watching him make the same mistakes over and over again is utterly painful. Sigh, tt.
I've watched enough Stephano to know what he does in that situation:
* Fast +1/+1 -> +2/+2 right after holding the aggression * Snipe forge * Snipe gateways * Snipe assimilator * Harass nexus; killing it means the game * Make a lot of roaches and trade them for stalkers and sentries while denying the third * Taking 4th-5th while all of this is going on * Tech to infestors & hive
Stephano's brood lord timing is not that early, however - he relies on a lot of infestors, roaches, and zerglings mid-game while putting down spines and a greater spire. But the biggest difference is that he trades his units efficiently while he has the chance to do it and gets faster upgrades, which slows down Protoss and allows him to move into a dozen infestors + brood lord tech which secures the game. Hero's a tough opponent for Stephano, but for IdrA it's just... Not fair.
On April 26 2012 11:58 Embir wrote: This game clearly shows flaws in IdrA playstyle. Say what you want but times when Idra was top zerg long gone. Strategies and players evolved, unfortunately IdrA stayed behind...
Idra was a top Zerg back in the Open Seasons and over a year ago. While everyone has been getting better, Idra's play this year (nearly 4 months into 2012) has been absolutely atrocious.
I do feel bad for the casters for taking all the heat for calling the game wrong. Any other pro zerg would have won that game.
Well I think a lot of this comes from the fact that IdrA is a player who actually hates SC2, many times he mentioned how awful and retarded this game is. It is difficult to improve, when there is no enthusiasm or passion - and it shows that IdrA lacks both. I liked him as macro machine, but now I much more prefer gamers with actual passion for the game - and there is plenty of them.
great use of hydras. kept them behind roaches at almost all times during engagements, and switching right back to pure roach production after the air & immortal counts were reduced.
I do feel JYP could have probably pulled through somewhat well if he hadn't let his colossus die so quickly and then aggressively blinked on top of rets remaining forces as rets reinforcements arrived.
This is a nice reversal. A longstanding foreign team sends out one of its top, ex-BW foreign Zerg players against a GSL-level Protoss Korean with exceptional PvZ.
Of course, perhaps the gameplay turned out differently
ret was really hesitant with his initial 12 min roach max. probably couldve won the game a lot earlier if he stopped darting in and out doing no real damage and losing tons of roaches for free
I was surprised that JYP kept backing his whole army into a corner so frequently when he didn't have forcefields to help cut the Zerg army... it seemed that by doing that, his back units couldn't attack and the roaches and hydralisks naturally positioned themselves into a better arc.
On April 26 2012 11:58 Embir wrote: This game clearly shows flaws in IdrA playstyle. Say what you want but times when Idra was top zerg long gone. Strategies and players evolved, unfortunately IdrA stayed behind...
Idra was a top Zerg back in the Open Seasons and over a year ago. While everyone has been getting better, Idra's play this year (nearly 4 months into 2012) has been absolutely atrocious.
I do feel bad for the casters for taking all the heat for calling the game wrong. Any other pro zerg would have won that game.
Well I think a lot of this comes from the fact that IdrA is a player who actually hates SC2, many times he mentioned how awful and retarded this game is. It is difficult to improve, when there is no enthusiasm or passion - and it shows that IdrA lacks both. I liked him as macro machine, but now I much more prefer gamers with actual passion for the game - and there is plenty of them.
I would not like it either if I suddenly had much more competition and would be falling from top foreigner in bw to mediocre foreigner in sc2.
On April 26 2012 12:17 darkevilxe wrote: ret was really hesitant with his initial 12 min roach max. probably couldve won the game a lot earlier if he stopped darting in and out doing no real damage and losing tons of roaches for free
Doubt it. He didn't have a 12 minute max initially, he had around 160 supply when he arrived in front of JYP's base. He pulled JYP back and forth until he maxed and then took out the third. Ret played that really safe and I think that it was far better than blindly throwing a 200/200 supply army at a protoss. Especially JYP, who has shown he can hold it off in the past.
On April 26 2012 11:58 Embir wrote: This game clearly shows flaws in IdrA playstyle. Say what you want but times when Idra was top zerg long gone. Strategies and players evolved, unfortunately IdrA stayed behind...
Idra was a top Zerg back in the Open Seasons and over a year ago. While everyone has been getting better, Idra's play this year (nearly 4 months into 2012) has been absolutely atrocious.
I do feel bad for the casters for taking all the heat for calling the game wrong. Any other pro zerg would have won that game.
Well I think a lot of this comes from the fact that IdrA is a player who actually hates SC2, many times he mentioned how awful and retarded this game is. It is difficult to improve, when there is no enthusiasm or passion - and it shows that IdrA lacks both. I liked him as macro machine, but now I much more prefer gamers with actual passion for the game - and there is plenty of them.
I would not like it either if I suddenly had much more competition and would be falling from top foreigner in bw to mediocre foreigner in sc2.
Top foreigner didn't mean much when you were a B-teamer in Korean BW. If anything, Idra benefited from SC2, becoming one of the best players in the beta and early months. But he stagnated, and you just can't rely on talent alone when everyone else is practicing and innovating.
On April 26 2012 11:58 Embir wrote: This game clearly shows flaws in IdrA playstyle. Say what you want but times when Idra was top zerg long gone. Strategies and players evolved, unfortunately IdrA stayed behind...
Idra was a top Zerg back in the Open Seasons and over a year ago. While everyone has been getting better, Idra's play this year (nearly 4 months into 2012) has been absolutely atrocious.
I do feel bad for the casters for taking all the heat for calling the game wrong. Any other pro zerg would have won that game.
Well I think a lot of this comes from the fact that IdrA is a player who actually hates SC2, many times he mentioned how awful and retarded this game is. It is difficult to improve, when there is no enthusiasm or passion - and it shows that IdrA lacks both. I liked him as macro machine, but now I much more prefer gamers with actual passion for the game - and there is plenty of them.
I would not like it either if I suddenly had much more competition and would be falling from top foreigner in bw to mediocre foreigner in sc2.
Top foreigner didn't mean much when you were a B-teamer in Korean BW. If anything, Idra benefited from SC2, becoming one of the best players in the beta and early months. But he stagnated, and you just can't rely on talent alone when everyone else is practicing and innovating.
Well it certainly hurts the ego to fall behind other foreigners like that. And my impression was always that idra had quite a lot of ego.
On April 26 2012 12:37 Dodgin wrote: haha you can tell when DJWheat's Zerg heart is breaking when he screams in agony and moves his head away from the mic
Yeah it's like Day[9] screaming except less informative.
What in the fuck is wrong with Ret's Brood Lord control? That's like 3 times now he has floated them miles ahead of his army and lost them all to Stalkers blinking under them.
gah, pushed out just a tiny bit too soon. just needed the extra 8 or so corruptors morphed into damage. he knew a vortex couldn't come for another 3 minutes. sure the toss is building a bank but if you can make that one good push w/ broods their bank never seems to be able to save them.
Not to take anything away from JYP, but that was Ret's loss way more than JYP's victory. I mean, 8 blords floating over the destructible rocks while roaches were still taking them down? blords attacking without infestors underneath? mass roach/ling when he doesn't have enough supply for corruptor->blord?
That composition from Protoss is hard to handle - Ret's control is not the best, but I've seen Stephano lose to the same thing.
However, Zerg has a tool for dealing with motherships - NP. It takes one decent Vortex to win the game for Protoss - and one decent NP to win it for Zerg. It's not a cakewalk to land it, though. Loading infestors into overlords help.
On April 26 2012 12:43 skeldark wrote: wow. This was a really, really ... boring game.
Not sure what you were watching, that game was pretty action packed, the advantage swung a lot.
Dont know what you were watching, i saw a 20 min no rush with one big fight. Protoss got a good vortex and won. After he won the first deathball fight and with it the game, they played around for another 10 min.
One fight that decided the game in 15 sec, for a 30 min game... I call this boring.
On April 26 2012 12:48 Azarkon wrote: That composition from Protoss is hard to handle - Ret's control is not the best, but I've seen Stephano lose to the same thing.
However, Zerg has a tool for dealing with motherships - NP. It takes one decent Vortex to win the game for Protoss - and one decent NP to win it for Zerg. It's not a cakewalk to land it, though. Loading infestors into overlords help.
Not the best? That's a huge understatement. He had the game in the bag but then started repeatedly throwing away massive numbers of Brood Lords almost completely for free. I think it was actually 3 times they went floating miles ahead of his army and got picked off by blink Stalkers.
It's like a Protoss walking 6 Colossi into a bunch of Roaches or something, amazing that the game lasted as long as it did, mistakes that big are usually insta GG.
On April 26 2012 12:43 skeldark wrote: wow. This was a really, really ... boring game.
Not sure what you were watching, that game was pretty action packed, the advantage swung a lot.
dont know what you were watching, i saw a 20 min no rush with one big fight where the protoss got a good vortex and won. After the protoss won the first deathball fight and with it the game, they played around for another 10 min.
One fight that decided the game in 15 sec, for a 30 min game... I call this boring.
If you think that game was decided by 1 Vortex then you should probably try watching games with your monitor turned on in the future.
On April 26 2012 12:43 skeldark wrote: wow. This was a really, really ... boring game.
Not sure what you were watching, that game was pretty action packed, the advantage swung a lot.
dont know what you were watching, i saw a 20 min no rush with one big fight where the protoss got a good vortex and won. After the protoss won the first deathball fight and with it the game, they played around for another 10 min.
One fight that decided the game in 15 sec, for a 30 min game... I call this boring.
If you think that game was decided by 1 Vortex then you should probably try watching games with your monitor turned on in the future.
Sorry that i see what i see and not what i should see. A mistake i often do on tl...
Every lategame pvz comes down to 1 deathball vs deathball fight. In this fight its all about the position and the casts.
On April 26 2012 13:00 Dodgin wrote: HuK taking out Taeja and Ret taking out JYP, upsets everywhere!
I think Ret's ZvP should get more credit, I don't feel it's an upset at all.
Well It's not as big of an upset as HuK over Taeja but JYP is known for his PvZ and he just took out Seal in Code A recently who is a really strong Zerg, I didn't expect Ret to win.
On April 26 2012 13:00 Azarkon wrote: Ret's ZvP is no joke. 2-1 Genius, 2-1 JYP. Fix that late-game army control and Ret is up there with Stephano - hell, I think his macro is better.
wow that was some good mindgame. He did not see the nr of worker pulled but total "overreact" without any information more than this bunker. He must know that puma dont fake bunker rushes. Micro cost him the advantage but still good decision.
EDIT: after the 5 spines i think he just overreact fast oO
Love TL and it's players, but Zenio is so strange . . . he's obviously very high level, but he's so incredibly inconsistant with his play. He goes from a Code S quality play to a Code B back and forth randomly . . . brain hurts watching it sometimes
man that was some of the most awful late game decision making I've ever seen. Zenio really needs to look at some Stephano games and stop being so awkward with Hive tech.
Zenio proving how inconsistant he is . . . horrible play first game, great play second game . . . . great play for 1/2 of the third game, horrible play for the other 1/2.
On April 26 2012 14:07 SpecFire wrote: uhh... Why Ret lol
Hero + Taeja > Ret
HerO's track record against Puma isn't so great. I would think Taeja is a better choice but maybe after loosing to Huk, he didn't feel confident to win against Puma?
On April 26 2012 14:07 jubil wrote: hmm surprised liquid didn't choose one of their Koreans. I suppose they had Code S to focus on.
I think they wanted a Z v puma who isnt that good TvZ imo... so that could be the reason. Seeing out Zenio just lost i doubt it makes much sense to put Zenio back in
If Ret loses this I'm blaming Zenio. Sorry, but anyone who throws away a won game in a team league deserves the blame! Either way, I think Ret can pull it off and save TL
On April 26 2012 14:07 SpecFire wrote: uhh... Why Ret lol
Hero + Taeja > Ret
HerO's track record against Puma isn't so great. I would think Taeja is a better choice but maybe after loosing to Huk, he didn't feel confident to win against Puma?
Actually, HerO's been doing well against Puma recently. And Hero's most recent PvTs are superior overall to Puma's TvPs, they're just saving him and Taeja for their code S matches and I'd do the same thing in their place.
Dutch Zerg fighting!! I wonder if TaeJa wasn't fielded because of his Code S match. It's pretty sensible that HerO wasn't going to be fielded, given his PvT history against PewMa.
On April 26 2012 14:07 Falconblade wrote: The koreans on Liquid must have not wanted to play.
Mercenaries have no will.
Yeah, HerO has been really slacking in team leagues such as IPL TAC etc...
On the other hand. If EG plays HuK, Liquid probably will not want neither HerO nor Taeja. If EG plays Puma, Liquid probably does not want HerO while Taeja would have been fine. All in all Ret is a good choice against both; his ZvP is looking quite scary as well as having had some success against Puma head to head.
As I write this, I realized it is a good chance you were using a rather dry form of humor. Hmm.
EG: TL is going to put out HerO, with Taeja behind. The best choice they have vs. those two is HuK.
TL: EG is going to put out HuK and, failing that, JYP. But because EG lost with JYP, and JYP sucks vs. Terran, the second choice is Puma. The best they have against HuK and Puma is Taeja, but because Taeja lost vs. HuK, and Ret is a god vs. Protoss and has decent ZvT against Puma's average TvZ, throwing out Ret is fine too.
TL's choice is fine. EG's is fine too, but in retrospect after knowing TL's ace.
On April 26 2012 14:15 Azarkon wrote: The choice for EG's ace is a massive mind game.
EG has to think that TL is going to put out HerO, with Taeja behind. The best choice they have vs. those two is HuK.
TL has to think that they EG is going to put out HuK and, failing that, JYP. But because EG lost with JYP, and JYP sucks vs. Terran, the second choice is Puma. The best they have against HuK and Puma is Taeja, but because Taeja lost vs. HuK, and Ret is a god vs. Protoss and has decent ZvT against Puma's average TvZ, throwing out Ret is fine too.
TL's choice makes sense. EG's makes sense too, but in retrospect after knowing TL's ace.
Don't know how EG figured this out.
I thought Puma was EG's favorite choice for ace. They usually call him over JYP or Huk it seems.
On April 26 2012 14:15 Azarkon wrote: The choice for EG's ace is a massive mind game.
EG has to think that TL is going to put out HerO, with Taeja behind. The best choice they have vs. those two is HuK.
TL has to think that they EG is going to put out HuK and, failing that, JYP. But because EG lost with JYP, and JYP sucks vs. Terran, the second choice is Puma. The best they have against HuK and Puma is Taeja, but because Taeja lost vs. HuK, and Ret is a god vs. Protoss and has decent ZvT against Puma's average TvZ, throwing out Ret is fine too.
TL's choice makes sense. EG's makes sense too, but in retrospect after knowing TL's ace.
Don't know how EG figured this out.
I thought Puma was EG's favorite choice for ace. They usually call him over JYP or Huk it seems.
Yeah, and that's where the massive mind game is - TL chose thinking EG was going to choose to counter what they think TL is choosing, but EG didn't
On April 26 2012 14:15 Azarkon wrote: The choice for EG's ace is a massive mind game.
EG: TL is going to put out HerO, with Taeja behind. The best choice they have vs. those two is HuK.
TL: EG is going to put out HuK and, failing that, JYP. But because EG lost with JYP, and JYP sucks vs. Terran, the second choice is Puma. The best they have against HuK and Puma is Taeja, but because Taeja lost vs. HuK, and Ret is a god vs. Protoss and has decent ZvT against Puma's average TvZ, throwing out Ret is fine too.
TL's choice is fine. EG's is fine too, but in retrospect after knowing TL's ace.
Don't know how EG figured this out.
dont read too deep into it, EGs choice was obvious, PuMa is their MVP.
TL messed up imo, by being a team that randomly thrusts the players who get most love from the community in order to stay the team that gets most sympathys.
they even could have won against fnatic if they didnt put Tyler against Moon but a better foreigner.
Zerg at this stage tends to have so many resources that it's worth to double important tech like greater spire somewhere else on the map, just to avoid slowdown by such snipes - which are going to get more and more popular and effective imo.
edit: as i type this ret builds backup infestation pit ^^ thank you, ret
On April 26 2012 14:30 Karliath wrote: I'm just tuning in, but the OP is incorrect! According to the OP, TL would have won 3-1 already. Can someone tell me the real deal?
umm you are wrong wtf... huk won. hero won. ret won. puma won.
On April 26 2012 14:30 Karliath wrote: I'm just tuning in, but the OP is incorrect! According to the OP, TL would have won 3-1 already. Can someone tell me the real deal?
On April 26 2012 14:30 Karliath wrote: I'm just tuning in, but the OP is incorrect! According to the OP, TL would have won 3-1 already. Can someone tell me the real deal?
Holy shit, this brings back memories. Does anybody else remember the sick sick build that NaDa used against Leenock like a year ago? Started with 1rax FE into 4rax and transitioned into mass hellion-thor-marine
Wooooooow PuMa played that really well. PuMa's a guy that's always really good but never seems to get that much credit, maybe it's a Korean Terran thing.
On April 26 2012 14:56 Bagration wrote: Congrats EG! It's good Liquid wasn't able to crush them again this time, otherwise the rivalry isn't much of a rivalry as a one sided beat down.
Exactly! I'm not even upset that TL lost, it would get boring if they won every time.
Ret's been sucking in the DH semi-finals and this ace match because he's been smoking too much weed, the dutchman is probably still baked 6 days past 420.
On April 26 2012 14:56 Bagration wrote: Congrats EG! It's good Liquid wasn't able to crush them again this time, otherwise the rivalry isn't much of a rivalry as a one sided beat down.
Exactly! I'm not even upset that TL lost, it would get boring if they won every time.
actually that was a quite important game for TL, regarding the fact they are pretty much close to the bottom of the standings now
Ret's been sucking in the DH semi-finals and this ace match because he's been smoking too much weed, the dutchman is probably still baked 6 days past 420.
If this doesn't get banned, in view of the banned bloke who had the tongue in cheek lag comment regarding Ret being picked, it'll be a travesty.
On April 26 2012 15:12 iNcontroL wrote: YEAR OF THE EG
is this to make up for last years craptastic eg performance in team leagues? and i am saying that having EG be my favorite team and you being my favorite player
On April 26 2012 14:07 SpecFire wrote: uhh... Why Ret lol
Hero + Taeja > Ret
HerO's track record against Puma isn't so great. I would think Taeja is a better choice but maybe after loosing to Huk, he didn't feel confident to win against Puma?
Actually, HerO's been doing well against Puma recently. And Hero's most recent PvTs are superior overall to Puma's TvPs, they're just saving him and Taeja for their code S matches and I'd do the same thing in their place.
LOL
They're saving them? I know Korean teams did that, if TL actually wanted to "Save" them they wouldn't have made them play a series in the first place.
My guess is TL just picked someone who they thought could beat Puma, didn't put a lot of thought into it. I think the viewers take team leagues a lot more seriously than the teams (except GSTL of course).
On April 26 2012 14:07 SpecFire wrote: uhh... Why Ret lol
Hero + Taeja > Ret
HerO's track record against Puma isn't so great. I would think Taeja is a better choice but maybe after loosing to Huk, he didn't feel confident to win against Puma?
Actually, HerO's been doing well against Puma recently. And Hero's most recent PvTs are superior overall to Puma's TvPs, they're just saving him and Taeja for their code S matches and I'd do the same thing in their place.
LOL
They're saving them? I know Korean teams did that, if TL actually wanted to "Save" them they wouldn't have made them play a series in the first place.
My guess is TL just picked someone who they thought could beat Puma, didn't put a lot of thought into it. I think the viewers take team leagues a lot more seriously than the teams (except GSTL of course).
Nope. Maybe this was their logic:
TL thinks EG will predict HerO to be the ace, in which case HuK is the best choice, and they send Ret against HuK, probably their most favourable player against him.
Woahh! Why the F... is this on so late huh? Us poor Europeans with jobs cant watch ... Will for sure be watching the rebroadcast of this, also the OP needs updating in "final score" spoiler? Just has Puma vs Zenio in it and 0-0 underneath :S
On April 26 2012 14:07 SpecFire wrote: uhh... Why Ret lol
Hero + Taeja > Ret
HerO's track record against Puma isn't so great. I would think Taeja is a better choice but maybe after loosing to Huk, he didn't feel confident to win against Puma?
Actually, HerO's been doing well against Puma recently. And Hero's most recent PvTs are superior overall to Puma's TvPs, they're just saving him and Taeja for their code S matches and I'd do the same thing in their place.
LOL
They're saving them? I know Korean teams did that, if TL actually wanted to "Save" them they wouldn't have made them play a series in the first place.
My guess is TL just picked someone who they thought could beat Puma, didn't put a lot of thought into it. I think the viewers take team leagues a lot more seriously than the teams (except GSTL of course).
Nope. Maybe this was their logic:
TL thinks EG will predict HerO to be the ace, in which case HuK is the best choice, and they send Ret against HuK, probably their most favourable player against him.
Or maybe Ret was available to play and the others weren't. O_O
Only caught the ace match between PuMa and Ret. Even though I like EG more I was rooting for Ret because I'm a zerg at heart. Either way it was a fun match, hoping the catch the vods sometime.
Such sick games. HuK and Puma are monsters. I've always loved HuK, but it's (not seriously) taken me some time to warm up to Puma, since I play Protoss and he, you know..INVENTED THE 1-1-1. Damn he played well. EG FIGHTING!
Puma was the single greatest purchase by EG. I really hope he's being well paid because the amount of weight he carries in the team is hilariously high.
On April 26 2012 23:52 nokz88 wrote: Puma was the single greatest purchase by EG. I really hope he's being well paid because the amount of weight he carries in the team is hilariously high.
They got him when he was at the absolute peak of his hype, (some) people were saying he is the best in the world. Since then he has regressed severely compared to the competition. Sounds shit to me. Same goes for JYP, Huk and Idra. This is the hamfisted way EG buys players.
On April 26 2012 23:52 nokz88 wrote: Puma was the single greatest purchase by EG. I really hope he's being well paid because the amount of weight he carries in the team is hilariously high.
They got him when he was at the absolute peak of his hype, (some) people were saying he is the best in the world. Since then he has regressed severely compared to the competition. Sounds shit to me. Same goes for JYP, Huk and Idra. This is the hamfisted way EG buys players.
Your wisdom, does it know no bounds? Relax honey. He's doing well. Just because Puma hasn't been taking as many 1st places in foreign tourneys doesn't mean he's doing poorly.
On April 26 2012 22:55 Sphen5117 wrote: Such sick games. HuK and Puma are monsters. I've always loved HuK, but it's (not seriously) taken me some time to warm up to Puma, since I play Protoss and he, you know..INVENTED THE 1-1-1. Damn he played well. EG FIGHTING!
Rofl, nobody knows who actually invented 1-1-1 but it's been around since Beta. Polt was the first one to regularly feature it at the highest level (GSL).
Funny how old Liquid member Huk seems to be in the habit of beating new Liquid superstars that are favored to win. He has done that with Hero and Zenio too.
Overall, nice showing from both teams. Grats to EG.
On April 26 2012 23:52 nokz88 wrote: Puma was the single greatest purchase by EG. I really hope he's being well paid because the amount of weight he carries in the team is hilariously high.
They got him when he was at the absolute peak of his hype, (some) people were saying he is the best in the world. Since then he has regressed severely compared to the competition. Sounds shit to me. Same goes for JYP, Huk and Idra. This is the hamfisted way EG buys players.
mhh.. the sweet yet bitter tast of angry TL fans. "oh. you won a game against us? well... you still suck!!"
And seriously, Puma has won so many tournaments or placed high at them it's just beyond me that people think his skill regressed. Even in 2012 he did pretty good. Same goes for Huk and JYP.
Just take a break and take a grip on yourself. Your favorite Team didn't win. Just move on.
On April 26 2012 23:52 nokz88 wrote: Puma was the single greatest purchase by EG. I really hope he's being well paid because the amount of weight he carries in the team is hilariously high.
well he certainly doesnt get paid near as much as idra or huk
On April 26 2012 23:52 nokz88 wrote: Puma was the single greatest purchase by EG. I really hope he's being well paid because the amount of weight he carries in the team is hilariously high.
well he certainly doesnt get paid near as much as idra or huk
If Puma had Incontrol's personality, he'd be paid more than Idra and Huk combined. Teams would kill for a player with high skill and great persona.
On April 26 2012 23:52 nokz88 wrote: Puma was the single greatest purchase by EG. I really hope he's being well paid because the amount of weight he carries in the team is hilariously high.
They got him when he was at the absolute peak of his hype, (some) people were saying he is the best in the world. Since then he has regressed severely compared to the competition. Sounds shit to me. Same goes for JYP, Huk and Idra. This is the hamfisted way EG buys players.
And here we have the bitter tears starting to flow!
. Since joining EG, Puma has won NASL, and IEM Cologne while taking second at Dreamhack Winter and the IEM worlds. Some regression.
Was anyone else more impressed by Zenio than anything else this series? I know he messed up that one BL morphing location, but other than that it was essentially flawless play. Puma's drops did absolutely nothing, and his creep spread was better than anything I've ever seen before, even with Puma constantly scanning to deny the creep. It looked like a perfect game by Zenio up until morphing BL in the center of the map. I was really impressed.
On April 26 2012 23:52 nokz88 wrote: Puma was the single greatest purchase by EG. I really hope he's being well paid because the amount of weight he carries in the team is hilariously high.
They got him when he was at the absolute peak of his hype, (some) people were saying he is the best in the world. Since then he has regressed severely compared to the competition. Sounds shit to me. Same goes for JYP, Huk and Idra. This is the hamfisted way EG buys players.
well part of their appeal is just how popular they are.
people love huk, people love idra. even if IdrA wins no tournments, as long as he stays above the milling mass of foreign players near the top, he is a return on investment...
puma, in the same way, although he isnt code s, has a lot of foreign exposure, and a lot of foreign victories (NASL 1+2, at IEM one first one second) which works out well
On April 26 2012 23:52 nokz88 wrote: Puma was the single greatest purchase by EG. I really hope he's being well paid because the amount of weight he carries in the team is hilariously high.
They got him when he was at the absolute peak of his hype, (some) people were saying he is the best in the world. Since then he has regressed severely compared to the competition. Sounds shit to me. Same goes for JYP, Huk and Idra. This is the hamfisted way EG buys players.
Yeah since they bought him Puma's only managed: 1st NASL S2 1st IEM Cologe 2nd IEM World Championships 2nd Dreamhack Winter 3rd Assembly Winter.
On April 26 2012 23:52 nokz88 wrote: Puma was the single greatest purchase by EG. I really hope he's being well paid because the amount of weight he carries in the team is hilariously high.
They got him when he was at the absolute peak of his hype, (some) people were saying he is the best in the world. Since then he has regressed severely compared to the competition. Sounds shit to me. Same goes for JYP, Huk and Idra. This is the hamfisted way EG buys players.
Yeah since they bought him Puma's only managed: 1st NASL S2 1st IEM Cologe 2nd IEM World Championships 2nd Dreamhack Winter 3rd Assembly Winter.
Nothing much then.
he totally peaked LOL. you beat me to this post. Oh and you left you 3rd at IEM China.
I don't really understand that saying. TL might have won a few team leagues against EG. Individually, they keep on getting beaten pretty badly. On the 12 individual matches played in 2012 between players from TL and EG: EG won 9
On April 26 2012 23:52 nokz88 wrote: Puma was the single greatest purchase by EG. I really hope he's being well paid because the amount of weight he carries in the team is hilariously high.
They got him when he was at the absolute peak of his hype, (some) people were saying he is the best in the world. Since then he has regressed severely compared to the competition. Sounds shit to me. Same goes for JYP, Huk and Idra. This is the hamfisted way EG buys players.
Yeah since they bought him Puma's only managed: 1st NASL S2 1st IEM Cologe 2nd IEM World Championships 2nd Dreamhack Winter 3rd Assembly Winter.
Nothing much then.
he totally peaked LOL. you beat me to this post. Oh and you left you 3rd at IEM China.
To be fair to his point, Puma looked like one of the very best terran in the world at the time of NASL 1. He doesn't anymore.
I actually dislike EG bashing quite a bit. Sure, they bought some good players, but Liquid have done nothing but the same. They bought zenio, hero and Taeja ffs. EG's only recent acquisition is JYP who seems to have geled well in an EG shirt.
On April 27 2012 07:53 Micket wrote: I actually dislike EG bashing quite a bit. Sure, they bought some good players, but Liquid have done nothing but the same. They bought zenio, hero and Taeja ffs. EG's only recent acquisition is JYP who seems to have geled well in an EG shirt.
Don't forget that JYP basically sought out EG himself (because Puma was there).
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PDbG8.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/8407/egicon.png)
![[image loading]](http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/7029/vslogo.png)
![[image loading]](http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/8451/teamliquidicon.png)
HuK <GSL Entombed Valley> 
TaeJa
IdrA <GSL Daybreak> 
