On March 27 2012 22:20 Destructicon wrote:
People have some absurd expectations in saying things like "don't let the zerg get late game" and some such nonsense. Matter of fact is the game isn't 100% in your control, there is the other player to consider, and if you get equally matched and competent players it is not always possible to win in the early or mid game, and its then that you need something to fall back on.

If a certain race can't win at any point in the game vs a certain composition or tactic then there is a flaw in the game. You should be able to go toe to toe with a player at any stage in the game.

Back on topic. Good luck to Hero, now that Gumiho is out I hope Hero can make it trough.

Well, i'm pretty sure they are deathballs in bw too. I think the root cause is that sc2 economy grows too fast along with its unit production. It's very difficult to hit the weak timings reliably. And because of how insane the dps of clumped up units are, the other player can't do much to salvage the situation with their unit control if they really got hit during their vulnerable period.
Fix unit collisions and slow down economy, we are good to go for HoTS even with "lame" units like colossi and broodlords.

Onlinejaguar

Australia2823 Posts

March 27 2012 13:28 GMT

#1843

ouch, losing that voidray was sloppy.

absinthfee

Germany718 Posts

March 27 2012 13:28 GMT

#1844

On March 27 2012 22:23 Hider wrote:
Maybe they will find a way. But currently no terran has a long-term solution for this. And this isn't about skill level. The terran can have 400+ APM, (like MKP micro + fantastic knowledge of the game), but he still wont be able to beat a zerg who doesn't make mistakes.

So the thing is: Terran needs to find a way to win late game, and the long term solution isn't gonna be counterattacking. The long-term solution has to be a unit composition that can at least trade somewhat even in a battle (of course given good micro) with broodlord/infestor.

Why cant it be counter attacking? Small forces and drops is the way to go.
In the end if he hasnt got the economy to back up a switch you can easily kill his army with vikings marines.
Zerg has been just counterattacking for months now in ZvP with mutas.

Seriosly if the zerg plays flawless then doesnt he deserve to win?

Seeker

Where dat snitch at?37103 Posts

March 27 2012 13:29 GMT

#1845

COME ON HERO!!! YOU'RE SO CLOSE!!!!!

Vega62a

946 Posts

March 27 2012 13:29 GMT

#1846

On March 27 2012 22:23 Hider wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 27 2012 22:16 rothsbury wrote:

On March 27 2012 22:13 Hider wrote:

On March 27 2012 22:08 rothsbury wrote:

On March 27 2012 22:03 HwangjaeTerran wrote:

On March 27 2012 22:01 rothsbury wrote:

On March 27 2012 21:56 Fluffboll wrote:

On March 27 2012 21:52 rothsbury wrote:

On March 27 2012 21:50 Azzur wrote:
Terrans have no answer to this Zerg lategame composition

At least now anyways

Eh, Gumiho was really unprepared for the broodlords in this match; he didn't start viking production until broods were already morphing. I think it is pretty balanced.

Actually, if you produce enough vikings to take out the Brood Lords and Corruptors the tech switch to Ultra/Ling will kill you so Terran lategame is really bad versus zerg lategame at this moment in time. Terrans can still win vs zerg by not letting the zerg get to the lategame however.

That's an economy issue then; broodlord/corruptor is really expensive, so if the terran has let the zerg get such an economic lead that the zerg can afford to lose all his corruptors and broods and then mass out of ultra/lings, then you were probably behind anyway. In a lot of broodlord corruptor pushes the zerg uses all of his money on those units, so if he loses them he can't really afford a big tech switch.

I think that leads us to the point: Don't let zerg reach the lategame. I wouldn't call fast tech with no economy to back it up lategame.

Lategame =/= letting zerg do whatever he wants. If you let the zerg sit on 5 bases without attacking for 20 mins, then yeah they gcan do that really expensive gas switch no problem. The idea is that even in the lategame you deny expansions, snipe expos, trade armies etc. so the zerg can't build up a giant bank while on 200/200.

Edit: also drops are really good against zerg lategame. Couple of dropships can kill a lot of tech / drones etc..

Watch stephano plays. He has great multitasking. And simply deals with early attacks. There is no way (IMO) that you can do a lot of damage early game/midgame to a zerg who simply plays very well like stephano. What works on your ladder game isn't suppoed to work on top top zerg players. And its only gonna get worse in the future (zergs gonna get better and better), untill (if) the terran finds a way to beat the army.

Well yeah, but Stephano is hardly invincible. Also, what you're describing can be explained by Stephano being more skilled than the terrans he faces. (But again, he's not invincible; he is beaten by good terrans like Polt a lot of the time.) You can't just point to one good player and say "oh zerg can't be dealt with"; maybe you need a terran stephano?

But what is the terran supposed to do? The problem is right now that when the zerg gets to a certain skill level, he learns how to deal with the immoblity issues of broodlord/infestor. And then he will be able to absolutely crush every single terran players in a straight up battle. So the terran needs to find a way to be somewhat efficient against broodlord/infestor.

Maybe they will find a way. But currently no terran has a long-term solution for this. And this isn't about skill level. The terran can have 400+ APM, (like MKP micro + fantastic knowledge of the game), but he still wont be able to beat a zerg who doesn't make mistakes.

So the thing is: Terran needs to find a way to win late game, and the long term solution isn't gonna be counterattacking. The long-term solution has to be a unit composition that can at least trade somewhat even in a battle (of course given good micro) with broodlord/infestor.

This feels like kind of an oversimplification. Saying a zerg "Just learns how to deal with drops" discounts the Terran's role in making drops work. (Day9 used to talk about that in his earlier dailies, although it was never a focus.)

Why does Terran's solution need to be a unit composition that can trade evenly with Zerg's? Why can't it be a whole game plan that puts the terran in a favorable position lategame? Why can't it be counterattack-based?

Hider

Denmark9447 Posts

March 27 2012 13:30 GMT

#1847

On March 27 2012 22:28 babysimba wrote:

Show nested quote +

Lame unit like broodlord?

The broodlord is a great unit. Hard to control properly and veyr strong in a straight up battle. Terran just needs a unit that can counter it a bit more efficient.

HaXXspetten

Sweden15718 Posts

March 27 2012 13:30 GMT

#1848

Nineteen mutas inc? o.O

Adr4melecH

Thailand667 Posts

March 27 2012 13:30 GMT

#1849

20 mutas at once

hero going for that phoenix upgrade again

Angel_

United States1617 Posts

March 27 2012 13:30 GMT

#1850

it's too late. i have no idea how he's going to hold

fidelity

Sweden410 Posts

March 27 2012 13:30 GMT

#1851

I don't understand why curious is doing that roach hydra pressure every game, it hasn't done anything in any of the games :/ If the collossus is out it gets shut down so hard

Dodgin

Canada39254 Posts

March 27 2012 13:30 GMT

#1852

This muta switch is fucking brutal.

Angel_

United States1617 Posts

March 27 2012 13:31 GMT

#1853

what were those colossi doing.

Chunhyang

Bangladesh1389 Posts

March 27 2012 13:31 GMT

#1854

Oh hiro

Destructicon

4713 Posts

March 27 2012 13:31 GMT

#1855

On March 27 2012 22:26 pookums wrote:

Show nested quote +

But that's just stupid. You're assuming everyone plays equally throughout a game. If Player A gets really far ahead of Player B in early or mid game then there should be no way for Player B to beat Player A in the late game excepting massive blunders by Player B or ridiculous 5000 APM control and decision making from Player A. If zerg plays well enough to bank a shit ton of money and get all their tech up in the super late game while terran doesn't then zerg deserves to win.

What you just described is one player out playing another. And while that happens fairly often too, its not uncommon for both players to be so good and evenly matched to both be able to reach the late game. So your argument is moot, if a player out plays another one yes he deserves to win. But if both are evenly matched then one shouldn't win out because of superior and un-counterable composition.

Damn, I'm worried for HerO, he looked solid in the first series, but he looks so shaky now.